Will Bruno achieve legend status at utd?

[Pogue Mahone]

So basically you think Bruno has been good this year? I agree he's had some moments and his stats hold up well, but there have been more a few below-average performances.

I think his performances have been overall decent this season. In the context of a badly misfiring team. And the misfiring is for reasons that have nothing to do with Bruno. Forwards who can't finish. Midfielders who can't get a grip on the game. A constantly makeshift defence. An overall dysfunctional nightmare to play in. He has had a few poor games but at this point in the season every player in the league has had a few poor games. Because of all the toxicity around him/the team, there have been plenty of good performances getting called out as shite by his critics (sometimes patiently corrected by @justsomebloke) which creates a false impression of him playing much worse overall than he actually has. This has happened after every single defeat, bar none. And there's a been a lot of them this season!

The one criticism I do think is fair for this season is his tendency to lose his head when things are going against us. There have been some exceptions (comebacks against Forest, Sheffield and Villa) but there's been a definite trend of him playing worse towards the end of games when we're desperate to get a result. I don't think being captain suits him, as I don't think he's calm enough for the role and gets too emotional when we need a calm head in charge. A flaw in his mentality that the responsibility of being captain seems to have exacerbated. But, as I said higher up, there are no other more obvious candiates. Which sums up the train wreck of a team he's playing for.

 

[Giggsy13]

Herrera like player for me. I’ve got a lot of time for him whilst he’s here, but I’ll probably almost entirely forget about him as soon as he’s gone.

Bruno is miles better than Herrera, what the feck are you on!

 

[devilish]

The term legend means a different thing to alot of people. I remember paddy crerand describing a clearly embarrassed Quinton fortune as a legend

 

[El Jefe]

Ah @58Posts spinning again….

So let’s debunk some of this with context.

1.He’s not or most potent attacker, bar non…He’s our penalty taker.

G+A Non pen (per 90)

Casemiro .47
Martial .43
McT .40
Garnacho .39
Rashford .37
Hojlund .33
Bruno .30

2.He’s made more tackles for the simple reason that he’s played most minutes. The majority of our other players have been out for extended periods this season. Antony makes more tackles per 90, Mainoo does an he’s extremely adept at being in the right place.

Tackles (per 90)

1.Case 2.45
2.Amrabat 2.41
3.Antony 2.35
4.AWB 25 2.30
5.Mainoo 2.16
6.Bruno 2.03

Let’s then consider ‘if others had managed similar outputs…

Bruno has a tragic pass completion rate of 71% 10% or more worse than

Mount
Maguire
Casemiro
McT
AWB
Amrabat
Evans
Mainoo
Varane
Lindelof

Also worse than

Antony
Eriksen
Rashford
Garnacho
Shaw
Martial
Dalot
Hojlund

Then look at his pass selection, total giveaways (which his so lucky to play with him teammates have to respond to) and wonder…if you were giving the ball away THAT many times doing THE SAME FECKING THING…would you not learn? The definition of insanity.


Medium Passes completion 75.4% 505 attempted/127 giveaways.
Long Passes completion 49% 309 attempted/156 giveaways.

*long/medium passes given away in total 283

Then the comparison seems to be with Odegaard for whatever reason and stats used to put a positive spin towards Bruno.

Here’s how Odegaard fares in pass completion:-

Overall 85.1% (14.1% higher)
Medium Passes completion 88% (8.6% higher) 399 attempted (106 fewer)/48 giveaways (79 fewer)
Long Passes completion 62.2% (13% higher) att 90 attempted (219 fewer) 34 giveaways (122 fewer)

*long/medium passes given away in total 82 ( fewer than Bruno)

Attempted medium passes per 90
Bruno 19.42
Odegaard 14.56

Attempted long passes per 90
Bruno 11.88
Odegaard 3.26

Giveaways from M/L passes per 90
Bruno 10.88 (283 total)
Odegaard 3.86 (89 total)

So you begin to see the utter madness that Bruno brings and why those who watch the game to form an opinion rather than using specific stats know that Bruno has had a terrible season. High risk and very little reward.

I wonder what @Pogue Mahone response to this will be considering his love for stats over the eye test.

 

[Pickle85]

Did you write that in reply to the post in quoted ? Hardly helps if you didn’t.

I’d say it’s more accurate to use per 90 stats, and stats that are the same for all players (non pens) than ones that favour a single player who has played more and takes pens.

Also the passing stats show the negative impact Bruno has overall, rather than focusing on XA randomness. If you think a player with less than 50% completion should continue making hundreds (literally) of the same passes….over and over then fine. I disagree.

Just because you like Bruno doesn’t make it right.

I'm saying that using stats to make the argument that stats are lying is a weird one. He's no doubt not been up to his usual standards but that's more down to the team being absolutely dysfunctional than to him being a poor player.

 

[justsomebloke]

Ah @58Posts spinning again….

So let’s debunk some of this with context.

1.He’s not or most potent attacker, bar non…He’s our penalty taker.

G+A Non pen (per 90)

Casemiro .47
Martial .43
McT .40
Garnacho .39
Rashford .37
Hojlund .33
Bruno .30

2.He’s made more tackles for the simple reason that he’s played most minutes. The majority of our other players have been out for extended periods this season. Antony makes more tackles per 90, Mainoo does an he’s extremely adept at being in the right place.

Tackles (per 90)

1.Case 2.45
2.Amrabat 2.41
3.Antony 2.35
4.AWB 25 2.30
5.Mainoo 2.16
6.Bruno 2.03

Let’s then consider ‘if others had managed similar outputs…

Bruno has a tragic pass completion rate of 71% 10% or more worse than

Mount
Maguire
Casemiro
McT
AWB
Amrabat
Evans
Mainoo
Varane
Lindelof

Also worse than

Antony
Eriksen
Rashford
Garnacho
Shaw
Martial
Dalot
Hojlund

Then look at his pass selection, total giveaways (which his so lucky to play with him teammates have to respond to) and wonder…if you were giving the ball away THAT many times doing THE SAME FECKING THING…would you not learn? The definition of insanity.


Medium Passes completion 75.4% 505 attempted/127 giveaways.
Long Passes completion 49% 309 attempted/156 giveaways.

*long/medium passes given away in total 283

Then the comparison seems to be with Odegaard for whatever reason and stats used to put a positive spin towards Bruno.

Here’s how Odegaard fares in pass completion:-

Overall 85.1% (14.1% higher)
Medium Passes completion 88% (8.6% higher) 399 attempted (106 fewer)/48 giveaways (79 fewer)
Long Passes completion 62.2% (13% higher) att 90 attempted (219 fewer) 34 giveaways (122 fewer)

*long/medium passes given away in total 82 ( fewer than Bruno)

Attempted medium passes per 90
Bruno 19.42
Odegaard 14.56

Attempted long passes per 90
Bruno 11.88
Odegaard 3.26

Giveaways from M/L passes per 90
Bruno 10.88 (283 total)
Odegaard 3.86 (89 total)

So you begin to see the utter madness that Bruno brings and why those who watch the game to form an opinion rather than using specific stats know that Bruno has had a terrible season. High risk and very little reward.

Context? He has never had a high pass completion %, including at his most dominant. Nor is his reputation built on a perception he's a dominant tackler, to put it mildly. Hasn't scored much this season, but then who has. Could have told you all of this without looking at the stats, and none of it tells anyone anything we haven't known for years. There's the scoring, but that's not really compelling on its own.

 

[Steve Bruce]

No one who has came to United post Ferguson can become legends unless big trophies start landing in our trophy cabinet.

We have been consistently poor since and when we've been better we've been miles off top spot points wise.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Context? He has never had a high pass completion %, including at his most dominant. Nor is his reputation built on a perception he's a dominant tackler, to put it mildly. Hasn't scored much this season, but then who has. Could have told you all of this without looking at the stats, and none of it tells anyone anything we haven't known for years. There's the scoring, but that's not really compelling on its own.

Let's also not forget that "per 90" stats can be incredibly misleading, if you include players who come on as substitutes (which Bruno never does). That's how Newcastle's Paul Dummett tops the charts for the most tackles made per 90 in the Premier League this season. Because he played 0.1 games, made 1 tackle, and is hence assumed to make an incredible 10 tackles per 90 minutes! The same nonsense explains why Martial seems like our most dangerous attacker, when we all know he's been next to useless for the vast majority of this season.

Bruno is not a dominant tackler but he covers a huge amount of ground (his remarkable distance covered stat being another bit of data which is ignored by the usual suspects) and harries and hassles opponents as well as everyone, even if he isn't smashing into them, Paulinha style. And, at the end of the day, only making two less tackles than Rice (who I'm fairly sure started every Arsenal game this season) is pretty damn impressive.

 

[Scandi Red]

Let's also not forget that "per 90" stats can be incredibly misleading

Yep. That is why it's a bad idea to compare players with wildly different patterns. That is also why I picked Ødegaard and the PL specifically. Just 200 minutes separate them and they play in the same league, so it's valid.

Bruno is not a dominant tackler

Compared to other attacking midfielders he most certainly is. And that is the only fair comparison in my opinion. His interception stats are also really good. And that is an arguably more important defensive stat.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Compared to other attacking midfielders he most certainly is. And that is the only fair comparison in my opinion. His interception stats are also really good. And that is an arguably more important defensive stat.

I meant "dominant" as in physically imposing. In the way that someone like Paulhinha makes so many crunching tackles every game. Anyway, just looking at tackles/interceptions will ignore the work he does in terms of closing opposition down and putting them under pressure. I never know where to find the "pressures" data that Ronaldo used to be so consistently piss poor at but I reckon Bruno looks great by that metric too.

 

[Scandi Red]

I never know where to find the "pressures" data that Ronaldo used to be so consistently piss poor at but I reckon Bruno looks great by that metric too.

I don't remember who posted it in the performances thread, but it can't be more than a month or two since a stat on pressing was posted and yes Bruno did excellently.

Unfortunately, two months in that thread is like a million pages of whining and requires a bottle of whisky to go through.

 

[Jordi Cruyff 99]

Correct. The ones with the long surnames. See also Rio.

Next weeks lesson. Why people often type “CM” instead of “central midfielder”…

Fernandes is a long surname?

Your comment makes no sense considering others with names with as many characters, or longer, are not referred to by their first name.

People on this forum write posts at length but choose out of first or second name as a method through which to save a millisecond? Haha.

You’re not making any sense at all.

 

[jadaba]

Even if he stayed 3-4 more years with us, as long as we only win say 1 cup tournament every couple of years or so then I don't imagine him being widely considered a legend. We can all argue about his stats and individual talent but too much of our fanbase simply doesn't adore him, and to some extent that adoration can be more important to a legend status than certain accomplishments. Many would say that Park Ji Sung is a United legend, even if he objectively scored, assisted and contributed less than Bruno, and I'd bet that perception is mainly influenced by the success our team enjoyed while he played for us and the fact that regardless of talent shortcomings everybody just absolutely loved him for the effort he gave. Bruno's attitude and the club's wider failures mean that regardless of his contributions to the team I fear his status will have a low ceiling here over time.

 

[TsuWave]

Bruno is miles better than Herrera, what the feck are you on!

The post reads to me as he sees Bruno the same way he saw Herrera, i.e “he has loads of time for the player whilst they’re here but will promptly forget about them once they’re gone”. Doesn’t read as though they’re saying they have the same level of ability or perform the same.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Even if he stayed 3-4 more years with us, as long as we only win say 1 cup tournament every couple of years or so then I don't imagine him being widely considered a legend. We can all argue about his stats and individual talent but too much of our fanbase simply doesn't adore him, and to some extent that adoration can be more important to a legend status than certain accomplishments. Many would say that Park Ji Sung is a United legend, even if he objectively scored, assisted and contributed less than Bruno, and I'd bet that perception is mainly influenced by the success our team enjoyed while he played for us and the fact that regardless of talent shortcomings everybody just absolutely loved him for the effort he gave. Bruno's attitude and the club's wider failures mean that regardless of his contributions to the team I fear his status will have a low ceiling here over time.

Agree 100%. And the simple fact is that not one player in an unsuccesful squad will be adored. Look at all their performance threads this season. There's not a hint of adoration there. Just varying degrees of dislike, running all the way up to actual loathing (invariably from the most prolific posters in each performance thread, go figure)

Just for shits and giggles I had a look at PL stats for Park vs Bruno.

Turns out their number of starts is actually fairly similar, so it's a reasonably fair comparison. Turns out the stats fully support what you're saying. In a different, more successful era Bruno would be just as popular as Park, maybe even more so.

Spoiler: Three Lung

Appearances154
Goals 19
Wins 95
Losses 26

• Attack
  Goals 19
  Goals per match 0.12
  Headed goals 5
  Goals with right foot 9
  Goals with left foot 4
  Penalties scored 0
  Freekicks scored 0
  Shots 129
  Shots on target 43
  Shooting accuracy % 33%
  Hit woodwork 4
  Big chances missed 4
• Team Play
  Assists 21
  Passes 3,238
  Passes per match 21.03
  Big Chances Created 4
  Crosses 191
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 27
  Accurate long balls 55
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 6
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 64
  Offsides 10
• Defence
  Tackles 250
  Tackle success % 71%
  Blocked shots 38
  Interceptions 132
  Clearances 48
  Headed Clearance 4
  Recoveries 368
  Duels won 544
  Duels lost 480
  Successful 50/50s 67
  Aerial battles won 43
  Aerial battles lost 70
  Errors leading to goal 0

Spoiler: Bruno

Appearances143
Goals47
Wins76
Losses35

• Attack
  Goals 47
  Goals per match 0.33
  Headed goals 2
  Goals with right foot 42
  Goals with left foot 3
  Penalties scored 16
  Freekicks scored 1
  Shots 393
  Shots on target 150
  Shooting accuracy % 38%
  Hit woodwork 15
  Big chances missed 29
• Team Play
  Assists 36
  Passes 7,683
  Passes per match 53.73
  Big Chances Created 79
  Crosses 658
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 95
  Accurate long balls 502
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 31
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 151
  Offsides 33
• Defence
  Tackles 241
  Tackle success % 56%
  Blocked shots 115
  Interceptions 93
  Clearances 137
  Headed Clearance 70
  Recoveries 743
  Duels won 586
  Duels lost 781
  Successful 50/50s 109
  Aerial battles won 70
  Aerial battles lost 139
  Errors leading to goal 1

 

[Jeppers7]

Let's also not forget that "per 90" stats can be incredibly misleading, if you include players who come on as substitutes (which Bruno never does). That's how Newcastle's Paul Dummett tops the charts for the most tackles made per 90 in the Premier League this season. Because he played 0.1 games, made 1 tackle, and is hence assumed to make an incredible 10 tackles per 90 minutes! The same nonsense explains why Martial seems like our most dangerous attacker, when we all know he's been next to useless for the vast majority of this season.

Bruno is not a dominant tackler but he covers a huge amount of ground (his remarkable distance covered stat being another bit of data which is ignored by the usual suspects) and harries and hassles opponents as well as everyone, even if he isn't smashing into them, Paulinha style. And, at the end of the day, only making two less tackles than Rice (who I'm fairly sure started every Arsenal game this season) is pretty damn impressive.

May I remind @58Posts that he brought in tackling when it seemed to suit his narrative. Unfortunately @58posts most of our squad have been injured (20+) so it suits your agenda now to discount 70% of our squad or at least attempt to?

Nobody other than you has chosen a player comparison with somebody who has made 1 appearance.

Of our top tacklers (not named Bruno if allowed)

Dalot 36 (45). 2234 mins played
AWB 25 (30). 1141 mins played
Antony 20 (33) 1226 mins played
Amrabat 19 (29). 1043 mins played
McT 16 (31) 1586 mins played
Case 16 (27) 949 mins played
Mainoo 12 (13) 580 mins played

Hope these numbers meet any moveable criteria that YOU decide to add in. Perhaps Mainoo shouldn’t be included but I think we will find him to be one midfielder who is consistent, so unless Bruno increases his pass completion % or learns at 29 from his mistakes….unfortunately the pattern is going the wrong way though, more long passes per 90 at a decreasing success rate, pretty much year on year, the. Mainoo will have to keep making many tackles per 90.

 

[Jeppers7]

Even if he stayed 3-4 more years with us, as long as we only win say 1 cup tournament every couple of years or so then I don't imagine him being widely considered a legend. We can all argue about his stats and individual talent but too much of our fanbase simply doesn't adore him, and to some extent that adoration can be more important to a legend status than certain accomplishments. Many would say that Park Ji Sung is a United legend, even if he objectively scored, assisted and contributed less than Bruno, and I'd bet that perception is mainly influenced by the success our team enjoyed while he played for us and the fact that regardless of talent shortcomings everybody just absolutely loved him for the effort he gave. Bruno's attitude and the club's wider failures mean that regardless of his contributions to the team I fear his status will have a low ceiling here over time.

I agree….Park is nowhere near a United legend. He’s a cult hero for some that’s about it. He played regularly better than Bruno though.

 

[Scandi Red]

Agree 100%.

Just for shits and giggles I had a look at PL stats for Park vs Bruno.

Turns out their number of starts is actually fairly similar, so it's a reasonably fair comparison. Turns out the stats fully support what you're saying. In a different, more successful era Bruno would be just as popular as Park, maybe even more so.

Spoiler: Three Lung

Appearances154
Goals 19
Wins 95
Losses 26

• Attack
  Goals 19
  Goals per match 0.12
  Headed goals 5
  Goals with right foot 9
  Goals with left foot 4
  Penalties scored 0
  Freekicks scored 0
  Shots 129
  Shots on target 43
  Shooting accuracy % 33%
  Hit woodwork 4
  Big chances missed 4
• Team Play
  Assists 21
  Passes 3,238
  Passes per match 21.03
  Big Chances Created 4
  Crosses 191
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 27
  Accurate long balls 55
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 6
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 64
  Offsides 10
• Defence
  Tackles 250
  Tackle success % 71%
  Blocked shots 38
  Interceptions 132
  Clearances 48
  Headed Clearance 4
  Recoveries 368
  Duels won 544
  Duels lost 480
  Successful 50/50s 67
  Aerial battles won 43
  Aerial battles lost 70
  Errors leading to goal 0

Spoiler: Bruno

Appearances143
Goals47
Wins76
Losses35

• Attack
  Goals 47
  Goals per match 0.33
  Headed goals 2
  Goals with right foot 42
  Goals with left foot 3
  Penalties scored 16
  Freekicks scored 1
  Shots 393
  Shots on target 150
  Shooting accuracy % 38%
  Hit woodwork 15
  Big chances missed 29
• Team Play
  Assists 36
  Passes 7,683
  Passes per match 53.73
  Big Chances Created 79
  Crosses 658
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 95
  Accurate long balls 502
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 31
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 151
  Offsides 33
• Defence
  Tackles 241
  Tackle success % 56%
  Blocked shots 115
  Interceptions 93
  Clearances 137
  Headed Clearance 70
  Recoveries 743
  Duels won 586
  Duels lost 781
  Successful 50/50s 109
  Aerial battles won 70
  Aerial battles lost 139
  Errors leading to goal 1

Defensively speaking Park must be one of the best wingers/attacking midfielders we've had! I really miss him...

Bruno with 31 yellow cards vs Park with just 6

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Defensively speaking Park must be one of the best wingers/attacking midfielders we've had! I really miss him...

Bruno with 31 yellow cards vs Park with just 6

He was incredible. And I didn't expect Bruno's defensive stats to be anywhere nearly as good as Park's but he either runs him close or is comfortably ahead in almost every defensive metric (apart from interceptions, interestingly). Obviously, it's easier to have good defensive stats in a crappy team but the converse of that is that it's easier to have good offensive stats in a good team and Bruno's offensive contributions are in a different league to Ji Sung, so we can only imagine how ridiculous they would have been if he played for the same team that Park did.

Side note. I'd say Antony would run Park close in terms of his defensive stuff. But he badly needs to up his game in the final third, where Park did much better than him. And doing better than Park, offensively, should be a low bar!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Fernandes is a long surname?

Your comment makes no sense considering others with names with as many characters, or longer, are not referred to by their first name.

People on this forum write posts at length but choose out of first or second name as a method through which to save a millisecond? Haha.

You’re not making any sense at all.

Just seen this.

Yes, Fernandes is a long surname. In fact, only one player in our current squad has a longer surname and nobody ever types his name out, they use his initials instead (you win a lollipop if you can guess who I'm talking about).

Hope this makes sense to you. I kept it as simple as possible.

 

[Jeppers7]

Context? He has never had a high pass completion %, including at his most dominant. Nor is his reputation built on a perception he's a dominant tackler, to put it mildly. Hasn't scored much this season, but then who has. Could have told you all of this without looking at the stats, and none of it tells anyone anything we haven't known for years. There's the scoring, but that's not really compelling on its own.

What it does tell us is that year on year his output (goals/assists) are diminishing while his performances - pass selection, completion etc are getting worse.

 

[lost7]

He's turning 30 this year, this is probably his peak. Who'd have thought back when he came 4 years ago that he'd waste his prime and we'd achieve nothing of note

 

[jadaba]

Agree 100%. And the simple fact is that not one player in an unsuccesful squad will be adored. Look at all their performance threads this season. There's not a hint of adoration there. Just varying degrees of dislike, running all the way up to actual loathing (invariably from the most prolific posters in each performance thread, go figure)

Just for shits and giggles I had a look at PL stats for Park vs Bruno.

Turns out their number of starts is actually fairly similar, so it's a reasonably fair comparison. Turns out the stats fully support what you're saying. In a different, more successful era Bruno would be just as popular as Park, maybe even more so.

Spoiler: Three Lung

Appearances154
Goals 19
Wins 95
Losses 26

• Attack
  Goals 19
  Goals per match 0.12
  Headed goals 5
  Goals with right foot 9
  Goals with left foot 4
  Penalties scored 0
  Freekicks scored 0
  Shots 129
  Shots on target 43
  Shooting accuracy % 33%
  Hit woodwork 4
  Big chances missed 4
• Team Play
  Assists 21
  Passes 3,238
  Passes per match 21.03
  Big Chances Created 4
  Crosses 191
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 27
  Accurate long balls 55
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 6
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 64
  Offsides 10
• Defence
  Tackles 250
  Tackle success % 71%
  Blocked shots 38
  Interceptions 132
  Clearances 48
  Headed Clearance 4
  Recoveries 368
  Duels won 544
  Duels lost 480
  Successful 50/50s 67
  Aerial battles won 43
  Aerial battles lost 70
  Errors leading to goal 0

Spoiler: Bruno

Appearances143
Goals47
Wins76
Losses35

• Attack
  Goals 47
  Goals per match 0.33
  Headed goals 2
  Goals with right foot 42
  Goals with left foot 3
  Penalties scored 16
  Freekicks scored 1
  Shots 393
  Shots on target 150
  Shooting accuracy % 38%
  Hit woodwork 15
  Big chances missed 29
• Team Play
  Assists 36
  Passes 7,683
  Passes per match 53.73
  Big Chances Created 79
  Crosses 658
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 95
  Accurate long balls 502
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 31
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 151
  Offsides 33
• Defence
  Tackles 241
  Tackle success % 56%
  Blocked shots 115
  Interceptions 93
  Clearances 137
  Headed Clearance 70
  Recoveries 743
  Duels won 586
  Duels lost 781
  Successful 50/50s 109
  Aerial battles won 70
  Aerial battles lost 139
  Errors leading to goal 1

Yeah it's no coincidence that many of the players widely considered to be United legends were in the same squad at the same time, legends get their status from the team's shared accomplishments during a certain era. Not just us but whenever we think of legendary Real Madrid, Barca, AC or even Arsenal players we tend to picture them as a package of legends from a club's glory years. Can't really think of cases where a single United player who spent his years here during a poor decade for the club is generally considered a legend, because as you say it's hard to really adore even brilliant players from an unsuccessful squad.

 

[Isotope]

He's not perfect, but certainly the best Captain post-Fergie era.

Start losing his head when we're heading to another lose? If every United players have this kinda attitude, the positive net would be much bigger than otherwise. Would love to see how Keano would react on this team. He'd probably on restraining order already.

I don't think he's a legend for now. But certainly one of my United favorite of all time.

 

[The-Mezzala]

No but probably one of the better players since Fergie left but that’s not been difficult I rate him as a player. Uniteds club legends are Charlton, Law, Best, Robson ,Schmeichel Cantona, Keane, Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Rooney, Christiano. I don’t think i would rate him ahead of Rudd, Yorke, Cole, Irwin Neville, Sheringham,Nani, Carrick, Hughes, Ince, RVP, Berbatov. Would he even make Uniteds top 30 players all time?

 

[Jeppers7]

Yeah it's no coincidence that many of the players widely considered to be United legends were in the same squad at the same time, legends get their status from the team's shared accomplishments during a certain era. Not just us but whenever we think of legendary Real Madrid, Barca, AC or even Arsenal players we tend to picture them as a package of legends from a club's glory years. Can't really think of cases where a single United player who spent his years here during a poor decade for the club is generally considered a legend, because as you say it's hard to really adore even brilliant players from an unsuccessful squad.

Where would you rate Bruno in the list of United legends?

 

[jadaba]

Where would you rate Bruno in the list of United legends?

I wouldn't consider him a legend now, and given the current trajectory of things I don't expect that this'll change whenever he leaves the club. If he were to leave tomorrow I'd consider him a real bright spot during a poor era, someone who entertained and sometimes frustrated us but whose occasional brilliance wasn't nearly enough to meaningfully lift the team out of its dire state.

 

[jem]

I think his performances have been overall decent this season. In the context of a badly misfiring team. And the misfiring is for reasons that have nothing to do with Bruno. Forwards who can't finish. Midfielders who can't get a grip on the game. A constantly makeshift defence. An overall dysfunctional nightmare to play in. He has had a few poor games but at this point in the season every player in the league has had a few poor games. Because of all the toxicity around him/the team, there have been plenty of good performances getting called out as shite by his critics (sometimes patiently corrected by @justsomebloke) which creates a false impression of him playing much worse overall than he actually has. This has happened after every single defeat, bar none. And there's a been a lot of them this season!

The one criticism I do think is fair for this season is his tendency to lose his head when things are going against us. There have been some exceptions (comebacks against Forest, Sheffield and Villa) but there's been a definite trend of him playing worse towards the end of games when we're desperate to get a result. I don't think being captain suits him, as I don't think he's calm enough for the role and gets too emotional when we need a calm head in charge. A flaw in his mentality that the responsibility of being captain seems to have exacerbated. But, as I said higher up, there are no other more obvious candiates. Which sums up the train wreck of a team he's playing for.

Yeah that’s all fair enough - I just think he’s been as good as last year or his first two seasons. He’s a very good player, but not a legend, in my opinion.

 

[jadaba]

I agree….Park is nowhere near a United legend. He’s a cult hero for some that’s about it. He played regularly better than Bruno though.

For some reason I'm only noticing you replied to this now. Cult hero is a pretty accurate description of our fanbase's feeling towards Park. I guess another player with cult status who would be considered a legend by most is Cantona, and he was only here five seasons - although his and the team's accomplishments--as well as even his personality--make his legend status pretty difficult to argue against. I wonder if it's possible for even any truly remarkable player to be considered a legend in a shorter time than 5 seasons.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah that’s all fair enough - I just think he’s been as good as last year or his first two seasons. He’s a very good player, but not a legend, in my opinion.

Yup. Agreed.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Probably not.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

He could still achieve legendary status by following the Cantona kick-a-fool method. As a player, no.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Bruno is miles better than Herrera, what the feck are you on!

I wasn’t comparing their ability, legend status isn’t about ability to me. More how you view a player.

I like Bruno, but honestly won’t be that arsed when he eventually goes though.

 

[TsuWave]

He's turning 30 this year, this is probably his peak. Who'd have thought back when he came 4 years ago that he'd waste his prime and we'd achieve nothing of note

Bruno was 25 playing ball in the Portuguese league (all due respect) with top clubs (United included) reportedly shying away due to his shortcomings (negligent in possession etc) 1 2

This is more so a case of Bruno being lucky that United has been so bad for so many years and that he ended up here and has had the career he’s had rather than him “wasting his prime”

 

[Handré1990]

Bruno was 25 playing ball in the Portuguese league (all due respect) with top clubs (United included) reportedly shying away due to his shortcomings (negligent in possession etc) 1 2

This is more so a case of Bruno being lucky that United has been so bad for so many years and that he ended up here and has had the career he’s had rather than him “wasting his prime”

Harsh, but fair. It’s not an insult to say it’s nearly impossible to dominate most sides in this era when Bruno is your talisman. Never going to be a legend in my book.

 

[mintyred]

Depends if we win anything big with him. He's a great player but he's been at the club in an era that's been a disaster. At a club like United, you aren't a legend unless you help us achieve legendary things. If we were a team that has never won much in our history he'd be a nailed on legend, but at United he's a cult hero at best.

 

[justsomebloke]

What it does tell us is that year on year his output (goals/assists) are diminishing while his performances - pass selection, completion etc are getting worse.

His pass completion is a little bit down compared to previous years yes, but it's not a very big difference. So is his scoring, particularly compared to his first two seasons. But the latter at least is hard to separate from the general scoring malaise of the team as a whole - it is difficult in such situations to say whether it's team performance affecting individual output, or the other way around. As an aside, I've often thought recently that it looks to me like he's playing a more withdrawn role than before when we're established in the attacking third. You don't see him moving into the box as much as before. I'm not sure if that's by design, but you'd expect it to affect his scoring output.

Overall and AFAICS, the stats tell exactly the same story as the (attentive) eye test - he's a bit below his usual level, but his level is still high to very high. Among our established high-level performers, it's really just him and maybe Shaw who can make that claim. People who look at this and argue he's shit or talk as if he's delivered a collapse in performance need to have their eyes checked, or question their football understanding.

The legend discussion we can have when he's retired.

 

[Jeppers7]

His pass completion is a little bit down compared to previous years yes, but it's not a very big difference. So is his scoring, particularly compared to his first two seasons. But the latter at least is hard to separate from the general scoring malaise of the team as a whole - it is difficult in such situations to say whether it's team performance affecting individual output, or the other way around. As an aside, I've often thought recently that it looks to me like he's playing a more withdrawn role than before when we're established in the attacking third. You don't see him moving into the box as much as before. I'm not sure if that's by design, but you'd expect it to affect his scoring output.

Overall and AFAICS, the stats tell exactly the same story as the (attentive) eye test - he's a bit below his usual level, but his level is still high to very high. Among our established high-level performers, it's really just him and maybe Shaw who can make that claim. People who look at this and argue he's shit or talk as if he's delivered a collapse in performance need to have their eyes checked, or question their football understanding.

The legend discussion we can have when he's retired.

That’s your opinion I’d suggest the opposite. Anyone who thinks a player turning over the ball making the same decisions over and over again won’t a) impact on the team. and b) increase their personal stats…needs to question their football understanding or have their eyes checked. This is without even getting into Bruno’s weaknesses. Passing is his strength…along with workrate and availability. There’s not much else he’s good at.

 

[justsomebloke]

That’s your opinion I’d suggest the opposite. Anyone who thinks a player turning over the ball making the same decisions over and over again won’t a) impact on the team. and b) increase their personal stats…needs to question their football understanding or have their eyes checked. This is without even getting into Bruno’s weaknesses. Passing is his strength…along with workrate and availability. There’s not much else he’s good at.

That's an outlandish description. And sorry, the conclusion is just too massively contradicted by both what any relatively unbiased eye can see and his demonstrable impact to deserve to be taken seriously.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

I think he's incredibly talented but kind of a prick. Very punchable.