The problem is maintaining this form, that's what made Messi and Ronaldo such freaks. Imo it's unlikely he will be able to keep it up. But what a start no doubt.
Will Haaland and Mbappe reach the same level as Ronaldo and Messi?
- Thread starter Bastian
- Start date
True enough.
The thing is though that sports and training volumes and methods are constantly evolving, and there is no rasional reason to believe that the next generation of athletes will not be better than the last. History will tell you that they will be better. Usain Bolt was faster than Carl Lewis, Federer would pulverize Bjorn Borg and 2020 Bayern would crush 1995 Milan. That's just how things work.
In an athletics context that's just not true. There's basically been no advancement in performances across the majority of athletics disciplines in the last 20-25 years. There's been tiny improvements in a small handful of events, which only reflect faster tracks or better equipment (such as the new trampoline shoes). Usain Bolt was a 'once-in-a-century' outlier, rather than representative of any trend. Or to put it another way, Carl Lewis would have won every single long jump competition that has taken place since his retirement in 1996.
I was surprised that it was also true for Olympic weightlifting, current athletes aren't stronger and aren't breaking old records. At the exception of Talakhadze.
Yes this is the hardest, but won’t deny their chances of achieving that yet. They are on the right track, although it’s still very early days.
You are right that much of the improvements in many sports are helped by better equipment too. For athletics you have a point, but with some context. It is also well documented that it was a dirtier sport in the 70s, 80s and 90s than it is now with regards to use of steroids and other illegal enhancing substances, and the sport has been in strong regression when it comes to active athletes in elite level.
In general the world evolves though and it is natural that we get better and better in sports as well as technology, science etc.
They, especially Haaland, may reach or even surpass their goal stats, but that is about it. Both of them do not wow me as much as a young CR7 or Messi, or even a young neymar.
You clearly don't know the kid then, he's about the most competitive player at PSG, you can just listen to Tuchel talk about how he's a shark to not be worried about his commitment. You don't accomplish all he's accomplished so far, especially with a 180m price tag at 18 and only one professional season behind him, without having passion and commitment. This is why both Haaland and Mbappe can go way further than people suspect, they are both insanely competitive and they look at each other. They are in the exact same conditions CR7 and Messi were to help them reach their best level. People can speculate on the vague notion of talent all they want, the numbers are there to show they're the next two, now it's just a matter of time and consistency, but I have zero doubts that their failure won't be down to lack of commitment or passion for the game; it'll be injuries that CR7 and Messi have been extremely fortunate to avoid for the best part of their career.
Good points.
Hard to tell at this stage, both are performing amazing but messi and ronaldo reinvented them selves, Ronaldo 3 times over. This is what allowed to continue to dominate, not many can say they’ve done this
The next rivalry taking place on stat sheets instead of the pitch? Please don't.
What does that even mean?
I think he means that their impact shouldn't be reduced to stats. He hopes this doesn't degenerate into a sports rivalry in which fans who don't watch either just pull up a stat sheet and debate who's the better player based on that.
You specifically said "the numbers are there to show they're the next two". But Messi and Cristiano weren't recognized as "the next two" because of their numbers. This only developed over time. If Ronaldo just skipped his last United and early Madrid years and immediately changed from the flashy but ineffective winger to the out an out striker not contributing much outside of goals, I doubt he would've been considered Messi's rival in the first place. I'm just hoping we don't get another decade of superficial stat comparisons that are very far away from what actually happens on the pitch.
Personally, I'd take Sancho over both of them and I just hope that players like him or Felix, if he develops like at the beginning of the season, won't be out of the conversation because they don't have goal per game ratios around 1. I already think Sancho was better in the last three months than Haaland and you barely read anything of him in this thread. I simply find it sad that the Messi and Ronaldo debate has changed the assessment of top players so much. Nowadays we wouldn't be having Ronaldinho as the best player in the world in the mid 00s but probably, don't know, Diego Forlan, Ruud van Nistelroy, Roy Makaay, Samuel Eto'o or Thierry Henry (he would at least be acceptable I guess). And that annoys me.
To summarise:
To reach Ronaldo level, they must have an insatiable appetite to score goals along with astonishing athleticism plus longevity.
To reach Messi level, they must have astonishing dribbling, passing, creativity and finishing plus longevity.
To conclude:
Reaching Ronaldo levels depends on the mbappe and haaland since they easily have the physical attributes and perhaps are even more talented than him.
Reaching Messi levels is NOT possible since neither have anywhere near the talent that Messi possesses.
The comparisons between any of the players and messi is purely based on goals scored whilst ignoring how good a playmaker and dribbler Messi is; one of the very best in history at both these facets.
To reach Ronaldo level, they must have an insatiable appetite to score goals along with astonishing athleticism plus longevity.
To reach Messi level, they must have astonishing dribbling, passing, creativity and finishing plus longevity.
To conclude:
Reaching Ronaldo levels depends on the mbappe and haaland since they easily have the physical attributes and perhaps are even more talented than him.
Reaching Messi levels is NOT possible since neither have anywhere near the talent that Messi possesses.
The comparisons between any of the players and messi is purely based on goals scored whilst ignoring how good a playmaker and dribbler Messi is; one of the very best in history at both these facets.
They might end up with a similar amount of goals and perhaps a similar amount of trophies and a similar amount of Ballon D'ors in lack of better competition, but I don't think they have the overall level talent and skills compared to the two. Mbappe seems to have more similar attributes to Ronaldo, but he's still a quite a different player. Haaland is a goal scoring beast but not similar to Messi in anyway.
I get where you're coming from. I’ve been a big supporter of Sancho, you can find posts of mine where I'm advocating getting him over Haaland, I think he'd be more transformative as I don't think Haaland will be quite as great at United as he's been with Dortmund (but I wouldn't be mad if he came, I just think without Sancho he's not going to be as effective).
CR7's being a rival with Messi had nothing to do with his time at United as a winger, but they scored similar amounts of goals and one played for Madrid, the other for Barcelona. I don't think he was quite just a striker not contributing much else, he had decent assists numbers as well, but regardless, they were rivals more by the fact they were the technical leaders of two rival teams. They weren't considered rivals before then, just two talented players. As far as 'the next two', stats are a record of history, but I agree they're not the be-all to end-all, they're just a fact of events without context. People have been wondering for some time if anybody could come up and do similar to what they've been doing, and we can see in Haaland and Mbappe two young players who are already putting up numbers neither put up at their age, and in Mbappe's case doing something neither has been able to do and that's being effective and scoring in knock out competition of the world cup (nevermind winning it ). It doesn't mean they're going to be better, or even as good, but they're the next best thing coming up.
You're right about one thing though, CR7/Messi for better or for worse, seem to have made the conversation about goals above anything else, I don't even think it's their fault but it's the media's obsession with goals, and I get it, goals are fun and they're the most important thing in football for many, but it's regrettable that it's turned into a situation where we probably will never see someone like Manuel Neuer win a ballon d'or, or Virgil Van Djik and others, basically no one but forwards will have a shot, 9 times out of 10, at the ultimate individual reward.
And this is a tiny aside, but Henry should have been considered the best player in the world over Ronaldinho for at least one of the two years R10 got that consideration, and yet you have some crazy enough to think Dinho deserves to be considered as an all-time great (mainly because of the aesthetics of his game over any sensible reasons), but CR7 and Messi will always be recognized not just for their stats but the fact they kept the motivation and the drive, as well as the insane luck of staying fit and healthy, to put them over the top of all these other legends.
They are in the way to reach Ronaldo's level if they can keep that goal ratio. They won't reach Messi's level.
They made it about goals because they scored at such ludicrous, unprecedented rates that it naturally made everything else fall to the side.
When your presence on the pitch effectively means your team starts the game 1-0 up, whatever else you bring to the table pales by comparison
But it's not really unprecedented, is it?
Exactly, coupled with the media's obsession with pushing the statistics forward and those two being the ultimate stat-sheet stuffers, it's set a completely different standard for what a Ballon d'Or candidate is. Clean sheets, tackles, win percentages, chance creations, etc aren't quite as sexy as goals and assists. So in Haaland and Mbappe, you have the two best young stats-approved duo that the media will be focused on for the next ten years if they stay healthy and productive.
The output over a season? Not really. The consistency over a decade? Certainly.
Pele comes to mind. Gerd Müller, Eusebio, Puskas, Zico and Romario are also a in the discussion.
I also don't like that context is always left out of the conversation. Both Messi and Cristiano played in the first era of absolute super squads. I'd argue that their respective goal records would at least be 30% lower if the talent was distributed more evenly like in previous era. You can observe that in their national teams. Tgey don't suddenly become worse players after putting on the Argentina/Portugal shirt. They are incredible players obviously but people need to understand that playing for teams that packed with stars definitely leads to a certain goal inflation.
No? In his best season Messi averaged a goal or assist every 49 minutes played. Please do tell who else managed that
Assists weren't even tracked until the mid 90s or so. Pele most likely equaled that given his out of this world scorers. Puskas probably in one or two seasons as well.
Thing is, we'll probably see players matching their career stats half a generation after them. Other players during tgeir time also did for at least over a season, like Lewandowski or Suarez. That should tell you that their goal achievements aren't what elevates them above almost anybody else.
In pure goal scoring Haaland can reach there numbers, don’t know overall. Haaland has 120 career goals im sure it took Ronaldo to 24 to reach that so he has a head start. Mbappe is similar to Messi in terms of playing style and while he has achieved so much in his career already he still has a long way to go to reach anywhere near the level of Messi/Ronaldo
Never, if they don't play in better leagues and show their quality.
There have been lot of great players around but to reach Maeesi and Ronaldo level you got to play at highest level and performing at highest level for 10-15 years.
I think comparisons shouldn’t be made across eras, in almost any sport out there. Past 10-15 years, it’s hard to make a valid comparison because of the game’s evolution. Even if the sport stays exactly the same (and it never does, better apparel, recovery science, etc), there’s such a difference in either philosophy, tactics, standard for athletes, etc that to me I consider what CR7/Messi did unprecedented because they played an ungodly amount of games, dominated club football, and almost never got hurt in the process after Messi got past his early career muscle issues. Pelé is a valid comparison if we disregard how vastly different the level of the game was, and the oppositions and skills there were in the game at the time.
Also, super teams existed before CR7/Messi. Super teams have always existed in sports, the difference now in a lot of them is the players making the decision to form them as opposed to directors or general managers.
Mbappé and Haaland are in the same generation sort of as Messi/CR7 but even the game changed then during their career, with the disappearance of the #10 playmaker that we see less and less in the center. The way possession plays a major role, goalkeepers completely changing the way they’re involved in the build up, it’s constantly changing that even goalkeepers of all positions are harder to compare across eras nowadays.
Also, super teams existed before CR7/Messi. Super teams have always existed in sports, the difference now in a lot of them is the players making the decision to form them as opposed to directors or general managers.
Mbappé and Haaland are in the same generation sort of as Messi/CR7 but even the game changed then during their career, with the disappearance of the #10 playmaker that we see less and less in the center. The way possession plays a major role, goalkeepers completely changing the way they’re involved in the build up, it’s constantly changing that even goalkeepers of all positions are harder to compare across eras nowadays.
Pelé might very well have, depending on assists. But of course hard to compare because of historical context, etc.
Gerd Müller may have come halfways close (but no cigar) in 72/73 and 76/77, and less likely 71/72. But assist numbers are either dodgy or unrecorded.
(Talking of club + NT.)
If it's hard to compare, why use the term unprecedented in the first place?
That's friendly fire nowIf it's hard to compare, why use the term unprecedented in the first place?
I'm arguing that it's likely not unprecedented (in terms of sheer numbers). Might have confused me with giorno.
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Haaland and Mbappe could be Ronaldo's level but I don't think they will catch Messi
What
Erm no he's not. He's a fantastic player in his own right, but him and young Messi are not alike at all.
Not even close. They will be lightyears away from that level.
Pretty much. Neither will come anywhere close.
Thread should be replaced with Henry and RVN instead of the two goats if anything.
I like how you say it with such certainty when thus far they are on pace to outdo both.
As great as Henry and RVN are in their own right, Mbappe and Haaland are on a different stratosphere compared to those two at their age. Maybe at the end of their career, it'll be the more appropriate comparison, but I suspect by the time those two are done, they will be far ahead of RVN and Henry in both stats and accomplishments (although in Henry's case, that may not be as easy since he's won everything) and closer to what Messi/CR7 achieved. Let's see.
No. They will reach the heights of some of the best strikers like Lewandoski, RVP etc
Indeed. Players of Messi's skill, style and success (all 3 factors combined and cranked up to the max) come around about once every 30 years, if the only other one was Maradona, and perhaps Pele.
The likes of Owen, Fowler, Aguero and Raul came out as teenagers banging in the goals. The pace Mbappe and Haaland are scoring at this stage of their career means nothing to me in comparison to Messi and Ronaldo.
We're talking about two of the top 5 players to ever play this game. Their level of talent is just higher than Mbappe and Haaland. I also say it with such certainty because I'm not using stats alone to form my opinion. You only needed to watch Messi a few times to know you were looking at an all time talent and Ronaldo too stuck out as a generational talent. While Mbappe and Haaland are the best young players in the game right now, there's a lack of magic in their game that all the all time greats had.
RVN and Henry were the best of their decade and Mbappe and Haaland will probably be the same. You need to factor in the era they played in rather that just looking at stats. A goal a game was the target for a striker in the 90s/00s, I've no doubt Henry and RVN will bag a goal a game if they played for BVB and PSG in this era. They may surpass both but IMO this is a more realistic comparison that Messi and Ronaldo.
Mbappe is literally nothing like Messi in terms of playing style
