Will Mourinho end up in our top 3 managers of all-time?

Brwned

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It's difficult to control for all of the additional variables (prior form, budget, initial team quality) but let's put that to the side initially, and just look at the peaks in United's history. Post WWII, there have been...
  • 35 seasons in which we've finished in the top 2 in the league
  • 32 seasons in which we've won at least 1 key trophy (league, FA Cup, European tournament)
Mourinho is the only one besides Busby and Sir Alex to do both. Prior to WWII, Ernest Mangnall is the only one to do either. Clearly he came to a team at a better starting point than many, but this is a team that had an average league position of 6th in the previous 4 seasons.

Sir Alex joined a team which finished 4th in 3 of the previous 4 seasons, Ron Atkinson took over a team that had just finished 2nd, Sexton took over a team that had just won the FA Cup, Frank O'Farrell and Tommy Docherty took over teams that reached the semi-finals of the league and FA Cups in back-to-back seasons. Every manager post-Busby came into a team that was capable of success under the right guidance - that's his legacy.

I think there's a good argument that Mourinho has made the most of his situation, excl. the two big ones. Being best of the rest doesn't necessarily mean good enough, especially given the change in resources available, but I think our view on what good enough is has become a bit detached from reality.

We won two trophies in his 1st season, finished in the top 2 in his 2nd season, and are closer to being an elite team than at any point beyond those two exceptional pinnacles. Comparing our current performances against those exceptions will surely only lead to constant despair.

That's not to say there aren't other perfectly valid reasons to think we're better off elsewhere. Reputation, youth promotion, future-building etc. all matter. Purely on performance, though, I think he's well on track to embedding himself as part of an elite trio - a level below the top two, but a level above the rest. Right now I'd say he's already in that top 3.

I'm curious how others see it given the general tone...
 
If he wins one of the big two trophies, then sure. Otherwise the gap is so big who cares about "finished second" and some mickey mouse cups. It'll be top 2 and then some others, some of whom were okay and some of whom were shit.
 
You raise some very good points but now is not the time to raise it, nor the place.

Many on this board are counting the days before inevitable happens and you won't be able to get any objective discussion about Mourinho.
 
Needs to win a couple of titles at be considered higher than Mangnall. If he doesn't win the league with us, then no.

He does currently have the best win % of all our managers though.
 
promisedlanchiao said:
Not really. Wonderful second half, patched up his relationship with Shaw and Martial (remains to be seen with Pogba) and got robbed by the ref. Showed loads of passion too.
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We've been shite this season. You're really blowing with the wind if a good half against Chelsea and Newcastle while -1 on goal difference is enough to satisfy you.

Although Brwned has raised fair points that aren't related to this, I don't think it's worth discussing with how bad we are at the moment.
 
Brwned said:
Ron Atkinson took over a team that had just finished 2nd,
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No he didn't. Sexton finished 8th in his final United season, although he did win his last 7 matches.

Having watched the Atkinson era, I would put it well ahead of Mourinho so far. For starters, he managed to stay in the job for 5+ years, finishing 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, with the supporters only losing faith towards the end of his last full season, when the team had thrown away a 10 point lead and collapsed. In those days the FA Cup was taken far more seriously, so too the League Cup. Atkinson's teams generally tried to play attacking football but lacked the basic competence and professionalism that won Liverpool numerous League titles during that era.

Mourinho took over a team that had finished 5th, marginally outside the top 4 due to inferior goal difference, and won the FA cup days before his appointment.
 
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Will go down as the most damaging manager we've had. And that's saying something as we've had Moyes and LVG
 
Skills said:
Will go down as the most damaging manager we've had. And that's saying something as we've had Moyes and LVG
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I don't think so. Those two fecked us. Moyes with the backroom staff (there's the family feel and quality gone immediately) and multiple ex players have said LVG decimated the good vibes around training, which I think makes a massive difference when it comes to team spirit and drive.
 
kundalini said:
No he didn't. Sexton finished 8th in his final United season, although he did win his last 7 matches.

Having watched the Atkinson era, I would put it well ahead of Mourinho so far.

Mourinho took over a team that had finished 5th, marginally outside the top 4 due to inferior goal difference, and won the FA cup.
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True. It was the season before in which we finished just 2 pts off the top, which I think is still relevant. Not that this mitigates your overall point in any way.
 
No. History will treat him as a transitional manager. Just like the run of managers United had in the 70s and early 80s.

Busby and Fergie will always be in the top 3. Here's hoping the other guy comes before the end of our lifetimes.
 
VeevaVee said:
I don't think so. Those two fecked us. Moyes with the backroom staff (there's the family feel and quality gone immediately) and multiple ex players have said LVG decimated the good vibes around training, which I think makes a massive difference when it comes to team spirit and drive.
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The situation under Van Gaal was never as toxic as under Mourinho. It's why he lasted the entire season and actually almost got us back into the top 4 and won the FA Cup on the way out. Even then he left a squad which was quite young and looked promising, and the issues he generally had were with the veteran players.

Mourinho's come in and will leave an older squad. The fights he's picked are with our younger players, and there's a good chance we're going to lose the likes of Martial and Pogba (the guys who we should be building around for the future) because of his awful man management.
 
Until he wins the big 2, he is not in the conversation for third best manager. Our top 2 were the foundation of our club. And that should not change no matter how many titles a future manager wins. Without the 2, there is no Manchester United.
 
Skills said:
The situation under Van Gaal was never as toxic as under Mourinho. It's why he lasted the entire season and actually almost got us back into the top 4 and won the FA Cup on the way out. Even then he left a squad which was quite young and looked promising, and the issues he generally had were with the veteran players.

Mourinho's come in and will leave an older squad. The fights he's picked are with our younger players, and there's a good chance we're going to lose the likes of Martial and Pogba (the guys who we should be building around for the future) because of his awful man management.
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Hmmm... 2015 average age 26.3, 2018 average age 25.1...
 
Skills said:
The situation under Van Gaal was never as toxic as under Mourinho. It's why he lasted the entire season and actually almost got us back into the top 4 and won the FA Cup on the way out. Even then he left a squad which was quite young and looked promising, and the issues he generally had were with the veteran players.

Mourinho's come in and will leave an older squad. The fights he's picked are with our younger players, and there's a good chance we're going to lose the likes of Martial and Pogba (the guys who we should be building around for the future) because of his awful man management.
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Multiple players have since said LVG destroyed the mood within the club. Something I believe propelled us in the past. They hated turning up to training every day.
We'll see what people say about Jose after he's left, but I don't think there's a chance it will have been as bad.

The fights are exaggerated. Possibly needed anyway. Certainly with Shaw. If others have his mentality in the end then it'll work out well.
 
Skills said:
Will go down as the most damaging manager we've had. And that's saying something as we've had Moyes and LVG
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Massively disagree. How on earth has Mourinho done more damage than Moyes did? I can’t even begin to fathom that argument.
 
Sooner he goes the better . Taking of Martial for Sanchez was a disgrace and he just can't get Herrera on the pitch quick enough once we take a lead
 
rpitchfo said:
He probably already is in terms of silverware isn’t he?
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4th or 5th, I'd say, excluding the Shield. Mangnall won two league titles and an FA Cup. Atkinson won 2 FA Cups. Mourinho has won the Europa League and League Cup. Depending on how you'd rank those trophies, Mourinho is probably equal to or just above Ron Atkinson, but not above Mangnall.
 
lsd said:
Sooner he goes the better . Taking of Martial for Sanchez was a disgrace and he just can't get Herrera on the pitch quick enough once we take a lead
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Once again, Martial pulled up and we have a game midweek. I don't know how people didn't see this?

I'm no Jose fan but I'm fair.
 
For sure, protecting a player hes definitely planning to start v Juventus after looking to have pulled up was utterly disgraceful. Should have left him on so that he could have pulled his hammy and then we could have slated Jose for leaving Martial on. How dare he make a sensible decision! And replacing him with another attacker, some nerve.
 
Brwned said:
True. It was the season before in which we finished just 2 pts off the top, which I think is still relevant. Not that this mitigates your overall point in any way.
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Although I attended at least 2 games at Old Trafford during the Sexton era, assessing the relative strength of the side Atkinson inherited is not something I would have been able to do at the time, never mind remember. However, using wikipedia I see that the team that finished 2nd had several regular starters that appear to have been well past their best by the time Ron Atkinson took charge: Buchan, Nicholl, Mcllroy, Macari (all players from the Docherty era). During Sexton's last season, Wilkins missed 3/4 of the matches, while the signing of Garry Birtles was an unmitigated disaster (0 goals in 25 League starts that season). Had Ray Wilkins been fit throughout the campaign then I assume the team would have finished a bit higher but still well short of the previous season.

Sexton finished 10th, 9th, 2nd, 8th. Also reached one FA Cup final.

I think it would be fair to say that Atkinson inherited several good players (Bailey, McQueen, Albiston, Wilkins) and a few promising younger players (Duxbury, Moran) but not a functioning team, especially given Joe Jordan leaving. I can't recall the precise sequence of Steve Coppell's knee injuries so not sure which category he belongs in.

Anyway, despite plenty of reservations about Ron Atkinson's management, I still rate his 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th with 2 FA Cups, as being more of an achievement than Mourinho's 6th, 2nd, with a League Cup and Europa League. If Mourinho can hold onto his job for another couple of seasons then I could see him overtaking Atkinson but right now, I would be surprised if he is in charge at the start of next season. Winning the CL, or indeed reaching the final, this season, would be another possible route for Mourinho to get past Atkinson.
 
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Skills said:
Will go down as the most damaging manager we've had. And that's saying something as we've had Moyes and LVG
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Must have been in some kind of coma during the Moyes era.
 
lsd said:
Sooner he goes the better . Taking of Martial for Sanchez was a disgrace and he just can't get Herrera on the pitch quick enough once we take a lead
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You want these threads mate:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...d-he-stay-or-go.441140/page-256#post-23202685 (The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go?)

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-chelsea.442344/page-5#post-23203090 (Post match vs Chelsea)

This thread is for discussing if he'll be in our top 3 managers of all time.
 
ErranMorad said:
If he wins one of the big two trophies, then sure. Otherwise the gap is so big who cares about "finished second" and some mickey mouse cups. It'll be top 2 and then some others, some of whom were okay and some of whom were shit.
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I don't even know about that.

Ernest Magnall won the league twice and the FA cup (both trophies had never been won by the club before) while we moved to Old Trafford. I know nothing about him bar that sentence and a few anecdotes but I'd have him third because that's enough for me.
 
Will he be one of our top 3 managers ever for winning the league cup and Europa league? Hmm, sure, whatever makes you happy.
 
Probably, but it's a prime example of why discrete math isn't used in many situations as it'd be misleading. Let's say if it was based on percentages, of the best managers at United, he'd get like 0.5%.
 
kundalini said:
No he didn't. Sexton finished 8th in his final United season, although he did win his last 7 matches.

Having watched the Atkinson era, I would put it well ahead of Mourinho so far. For starters, he managed to stay in the job for 5+ years, finishing 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, with the supporters only losing faith towards the end of his last full season, when the team had thrown away a 10 point lead and collapsed. In those days the FA Cup was taken far more seriously, so too the League Cup. Atkinson's teams generally tried to play attacking football but lacked the basic competence and professionalism that won Liverpool numerous League titles during that era.

Mourinho took over a team that had finished 5th, marginally outside the top 4 due to inferior goal difference, and won the FA cup days before his appointment.
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Watched that team too.... loved them and Big Ron. That 10-game start to the season was good fun, while it lasted? Cup matches were probably the best (domestic) cup games I've ever seen United in, especially the semis v Liverpool.
Brwned said:
True. It was the season before in which we finished just 2 pts off the top, which I think is still relevant. Not that this mitigates your overall point in any way.
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Atkinson is held in higher regard than Jose by everyone I know of an age who've watched both teams. Good buys, good team spirit, good football.

If Jose wins the league OR a CL OR 2-3 domestic trophies, then he'd have a shout. Right now, he's had one good season and spent a shedload of money while the football has been "mixed".
 
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