Scandalous if you ask me
Woodward and Fergie wanted Giggs as manager
- Thread starter ManchesterManchester
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The only good thing our ex-player did for our post-SAF situation was Keane publicly calling out the jobs for the boys nonsense. It has to be empasised that Fletcher was still getting his coaching badges when he joined and was our technical director in a year. He wasn't even retired long enough for anyone to label him as some prodigy coach that needed to be fast tracked to management. The announcement contained more drivel about the United DNA than his actual work at the club. He wasn't even qualified for the first job. We're run like a 3rd world Government where the problems and solutions are the same mistakes on a loop. Woodward knows nothing about running a club so let's bring on others even less qualified.
We didnt follow through because we foolishly chose to abandon the plan just as it started to bear fruit. To 'keep up with the kardashians' next door and jumped for Mourinho just because they had got Pep
It looks like a bullet dodged but that's not to say we were right to abandon the plan and just throw the keys to the kingdom to Mourinho because he was available.
Giggs wasn't the answer obviously but there was a plan in terms of continuity which was abandoned in favour of a few trophies at any cost with Mourinho.
Giggs wasn't the answer obviously but there was a plan in terms of continuity which was abandoned in favour of a few trophies at any cost with Mourinho.
It was obvious at the time, i always felt it was shitty to lump Giggs on Van Gaal.
I suppose the most famous example is the 'Liverpool bootroom' which started with Shankley and produced Paisley, Fagen and Daglish.
Did it, though? I know we won the FA Cup, but the football was boring, we went backwards in the league and the signings weren't good.
I stand corrected but I would argue that they were less technical times...like Ferguson’s early achievements...you could do a lot with a professional approach, inspiration and a will to win. Now the game has developed and every team you play has that fight, fitness, desire and tactical know how to disrupt you. It makes what Pep did more unique. Can’t think of another in the last 20-25 years. So how do our board reckon a former player without the experience of working with top coaches and in top set ups could just step in and take us where we need to go? Unless you were a visionary like Pep...with an idea of how the game should be played and a status at the club that can be leveraged because you’re a legend at the club - zidane perhaps? Ah here...maybe I’m wrong! Give it to Fletch!!!
Football has moved on, and it is far more professional and technical. Plus Liverpool at the time had in place much of what would now be called a football structure, including excellent youth system and clear football philosophy across all ages. United towards end of Fergie era had already allowed youth system to stagnate and be overtaken by clubs with more professional set ups that invested far more, there was never a particularly defined football approach and also crucially the people seemingly chosen were not good enough. Giggs has never shown anything approaching the leadership or insights to be a top coach, putting aside if one can the clear personal flaws that speak to his personality, and there was no structure behind him. The fact that even now it seems Fergie inputs into transfers or even managerial appointments is a joke.
Yeah...smacks of desperation...I remember the day he retired...I was so sure a club the size of Utd couldn’t just fall away...that we were too big...too well run...too many people on big money not to ensure long term stability. Jesus how wrong was I?
While the Glazer ownership is the root cause, given they are absent owners who never care if Utd ever win a trophy again, the real architect of our demise is Woodward. His ineptitude is hard to fully appreciate, he could see how other clubs were run but chose to do none of those things. He was on a giant ego trip, good article in the TImes today on all the problems the club faces and that . Woodrward thought he could be a football titan like Florintino Perez at Madrid, not that he was ever the greatest role model but Woodward lacked any expertise nor did he understand that the first basic rule of leadership is to hire the best people to do the key jobs. He should long be remembered as exactly why we are where we are, and why I keep saying the fans need to insist we build a proper football structure. Making Ralf DoF would be the first step.
I suppose Barcelona have followed it in a sense after Pep. Luis Enrique played for Barca and managed Barca B at the start of his career. Valverde had also played for Barca. Both of those managers cut their teeth at senior managerial level elsewhere before getting the Barca job of course.
I don't think it's necessarily the wrong approach but it can only work in specific contexts. You needs a cohesive club structure and identity. You also need a bit of luck in getting the right players in through transfers and academy graduates, I think there's always at least an element of luck in this regard.
As it happened with Ferguson his methods and the United structure were already antiquated by the time he left so we were swimming against the tide of prevailing trends. We were not able to see clearly because of the legacy and legend of Ferguson and have paid the price for that since. I would add that's only a part of the problem. Perhaps the bigger issue is the ownership and how they are primarily interested in the financial bottom line, in contrast to City where the owners are interested in the prestige of sporting success primarily.
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thankfully never materialised. Forgetting his personal misdemeanours, he had the charisma of a brick. Been shared before but the team talks he gave were diabolical and his interviews pre/post most so depressingly miserable. Can’t fathom why anyone would highlight him as a candidate…especially SAF and Woodward
This isn't exactly a scoop. Was a different time back then as the old boys were still favourably looked at as guardians of the club. Ashamed to say we were all on board, wasn't even that far back. If you remember Jose even had to refuse Giggs on his coaching team, he was originally supposed to be groomed by Jose as well. I'd say Jose did us a favour but we just ended up with Ole anyway.
Something I don't get.
The thread title says "Woordward and Fergie wanted Giggs as manager", the OP says Woodward & the Board decided, then communicated this to Fergie (I'm assuming for his opinion/approval). Those are two different statements, which is it?
The thread title says "Woordward and Fergie wanted Giggs as manager", the OP says Woodward & the Board decided, then communicated this to Fergie (I'm assuming for his opinion/approval). Those are two different statements, which is it?
Not everyone. There have been plenty who have questioned or opposed the majority of the decisions the club has made post-Ferguson, and been completely fed up with the direction we've been heading. That includes the whole old boys club vibe.
But any concerns raised were always drowned out by those labelling them as moaners. I expect that's part of why the fanbase became so divided/toxic, as there was an overwhelming feeling of "I told you so'" and an outlet of pent up frustration being released after Solskjaer was sacked, from those who seen it coming years ago.
Giggs was the first time so people may be forgiven but the 3 year charade with Ole was really just sentimental fools who didn't learn anything from the past. A rebuild that left us with no trophies and an untenable dressing room situation tearing the squad apart before the next manager could even get their hands on. These people still speak of his time like an investment in the club's future.
Yeah, because thats Fergusons fault.
At the time I would have supported it. Like Ole getting the job after Jose. I always thought Giggs (or someone) should have been groomed by Fergie for the continuity.
Obviously hindsight with Giggs' legal stuff it would have been a nightmare. Plus Ole didn't work out for the reason of him not being top tier, same would be said about Giggs.
Obviously hindsight with Giggs' legal stuff it would have been a nightmare. Plus Ole didn't work out for the reason of him not being top tier, same would be said about Giggs.
SAF had a big say in appointing Moyes who in return hired every class of 92 he could find. As this thread suggested, Giggs was set to replace LVG. Meanwhile our most barren (and expensive ) run came with Ole as manager, Phelan and Carrick as coaches and Fletcher as technical director. We spent 415m on United DNA and won.....nothing.
We need a clear cut. There's no room for sentimentalism in today's EPL unless of course we're happy to become a Wenger type of side.
Didn't Fergie want Pochettino back in 2016? Anyways, think club will be more careful in future when considering ex-player for a manager. Not that Ole's tenure was that bad but he failed in the end and with some horrible results in his the month or so.
It's not so much about him failed, but more on we believed something that wasnt existing, while every man and his dog knew the emperor had no cloth.
Even chelsea dont take too long to fire lampard even if the result arent that bad.
I dont mind giving ole the job but he should be judged accordingly, not given blind loyalty because he's an ex legend
Sorry your quite right. I didn’t fully explain.
Woodward and the board decided this approach and then presented it to Sir Alex and Bobby for their approval. Fergie agreed to get behind the Van Gaal appointment on that condition that Giggs would succeed him. Fergie was not happy when Van Gaal was sacked and Woodward went back on the plan and hired Mourinho instead. As others have said, it seems they did try to convince Mourinho to work with Giggs but Mourinho didn’t want to. The rest is history as they say.
While I'm no supporter of Ole and co there has to be some context.
The year we won the FA Cup we came 5th.
The year we won Europa and the League cup we came 6th. We focused on Europa to get CL football when top 4 was gone.
Our only time we've managed back to back top 4 is with Ole and co and got to a Europa final losing by an extraordinary penalty shootout. I wouldn't even give that much credit for second place, we could call them net 3rd or 4th places as Liverpool bounced back with defenders returning and Chelsea became one of the form teams after Tuchel was appointed. Still it's a solid league performance coming up short in cups. Neither is really good enough for united, ie finishing 5th 6th 7th and getting a small cup or getting top 4 and winning nothing. Barren years is over egging odd cup win while doing even worse in the league.
We spent 415m for no honours and for a poorly balanced and poorly disciplined squad that is in dire need for yet another rebuild.
Not a huge revelation. The likes of Mitten said as much back then - i.e. that Giggs was "groomed" in some fashion or other under LVG.
Wonder if we'll ever get the full story - of the whole series of shambolic decisions in the post-SAF era, I mean.
Wonder if we'll ever get the full story - of the whole series of shambolic decisions in the post-SAF era, I mean.
Wouldn't be my pick at the time, far from, but in hindsight, i doubt it had gone any worse than it has, especially considering that Giggs wouldn't get rid of the coaching staff the first day, and get his own.
We reached EL final thanks to us getting dumped from CL group stage in an embarrassing way from the start.
"odd cup win". That's a polite way to over egg as you put it an embarrassing trophy drought. A season that ends with any trophy is always worth more than none. The CL qualification trophy was a financial goal, we had no plans on winning it, it had feck all to do with football like winning actual silverware. Under Fergie we tried to win domestic cups, Pep also does the same. Stop putting actual trophies in the same class with no trophies.
If we won the EL penalty shoot out would we still be in dire need for another rebuild?
Is it true Fergie wanted Giggs? It says in OP's post that he was told? Or did he recommend Giggs and was then informed he'd got the job?
My overriding memory of Giggs is that fly on the wall team talk where he basically says give it to Valencia he can run fast and take your chances or words to that effect. I remember the players looking nonplussed and not in the least fired up.
My overriding memory of Giggs is that fly on the wall team talk where he basically says give it to Valencia he can run fast and take your chances or words to that effect. I remember the players looking nonplussed and not in the least fired up.
This club 
I'd rather Paul Scholes than Giggsy. I don't think any of United ex stars has been consistently so poor/clueless as pundit. He's got no charisma, his tactical nous is extremely basic, oh and on top of that he's deplorable cnut. Three checks for woody, seemingly.
I'd rather Paul Scholes than Giggsy. I don't think any of United ex stars has been consistently so poor/clueless as pundit. He's got no charisma, his tactical nous is extremely basic, oh and on top of that he's deplorable cnut. Three checks for woody, seemingly.
As much as I love the man, he needs to be ignored when it comes to managers in the future.I think we can all safely agree that whilst we love the man, Sir Alex is probably not great at choosing managers
Apologies for shamelessly plugging my old thread (from 2015 when all this was going down), but may be interesting reading to see what the 'Caf mood was at the time;
The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager
The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager
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Sorry I should have added in the detail. Woodward and the board managed to convince Sir Alex and Bobby that sacking Moyes and hiring Van Gaal would be the correct decision as Giggs would follow Van Gaal. This reassured Sir Alex and Bobby that there was long term planning and the Utd way would continue.
Personally I think Woodward should of had the confidence to stick to his own beliefs and modernise Utd. Although he made the correct decision to abandon Giggs, he panicked when he got rid of Van Gaal and got Mourinho. Fergies opinion is just blinded by sentiment (Moyes Scottish, Giggs and Ole his own players) but that’s not his fault they kept seeking his recommendations.
On goal difference to be fair, GD from back to back top 4. Pretty sure even if we had got that 4th spot and the Cup Van Gaal would have gotten the sack for Jose anyway.
Sentimentalism and revisionism are of little use. Portraying David Moyes as a ‘United-DNA’ move takes a lot of active misremembering and hyperbolics, I would say. It smacks of fancifulness: Ignoring all the rumours that Ferguson had five other names above Moyes on his recommendation-list, that asking the worlds best manager for managerial advice is perhaps best construed as exactly that, rather than some fascination with DNA. The idea of ‘leaving it to Ed Woodward alone’ is perhaps what exactly noone would suggest in hindsight.
It’s also very peculiar to try to angle Moyes as obsessed with United DNA, as he distanced himself fairly clearly from Ferguson, from his advice (sell Rooney), from his staff (botched them all, to the grand critique of many, favoring Lumsden and his own Everyon-DNA-team, only admitting Giggs for a Phelan-like role and later Phil Neville to carry cones). Moyes and the club were heavily criticized at the time for cutting too much with a team that were run-away-champions the previous year. Moyes had exactly 0 % of anything reminiscent of ‘United DNA’. Then Van Gaal, with his Ajax and Barca ‘DNA’, nothing to do with United. Then Mourinho, The Anti United RNA-converter. Players came and went. The only aspect of continuity from the era of Ferguson, where Ryan Giggs standing on the sidelines of the sidelines. He got four games. That’s the extent of this obsession with United way you allude to. It was almost clean break after clean break, until Ole. That came after five years and the disillusion was huge among vast amount of fans at that point - not just the trolls.
It was identified that most clubs who have repeated success over decades actually do have a lot of so called ‘DNA’, that is continuity in staff, in methods, in style, in identity. Real Madrid, Ajax, Bayern München, Liverpool, Juventus, Barca have all demonstrated this for long spells.
The effects of a cultural ‘DNA’ normally don’t show over a couple of years necessarily, but in the longer run. Ralf Rangnik is an expert in this, as he has built three clubs with that as one of his three core themes.
Yes he probably would.
LVG narrowly missed 4th, Ole narrowly missed a Europa trophy but I think people have missed the point anyway.
Quelle surprise
Surely someone at OT said ‘Isn’t this approach basically 1990s Liverpool?‘ and then quickly binned those plans upon realising?
I’m pretty sure if this went ahead, it would have been Giggs, Phelan and Meulensteen on staff… I get the feeling they’d have got found out fairly quickly and been deemed ‘dinosaurs’ and ‘clinging onto the Ferguson legacy‘. We haven’t played consistently exciting football since Queiroz left the second time.
Surely someone at OT said ‘Isn’t this approach basically 1990s Liverpool?‘ and then quickly binned those plans upon realising?
I’m pretty sure if this went ahead, it would have been Giggs, Phelan and Meulensteen on staff… I get the feeling they’d have got found out fairly quickly and been deemed ‘dinosaurs’ and ‘clinging onto the Ferguson legacy‘. We haven’t played consistently exciting football since Queiroz left the second time.
The answer is yes as the squad built is filled with overrated and overpaid bottlers. We didn't win the EL penalty shootout though despite playing against a much weaker side