That makes no sense. If it’s always been an issue then the fact he’s getting older is more or less irrelevant.
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
The big teams can compensate with their sublime positioning and technique. We on the other hand are not on the same level and need to work harder. Also it is obviously more important to know when to run and not run like headless chickens all the time. I think we lack in both departments
Yes, one issue I had with his signing is how poor he can be defensively. He might chase and win the ball back in a very eye catching way but he is also prone to wandering out of position, exposing his flank and walking back. Would also like to see him run behind more often, as he did for his goal at the weekend, opens the space for the likes of Lingard and Mata to combine.
Green = Last 16
Blue = Quarters
It's pretty much even across the board. Whats interesting to me is that if you look at the top 4 clubs in recent seasons in the CL (Real, Barcelona, Bayern and Juve) none of them are in the top half of the table.
Him running a bit less than his team mates isn't a massive issue (especially if he is carrying them in attack like he was at Arsenal). However if his legs start to go and he begins running an awful lot less than I don't see how it won't become a problem for us.
I do agree with your sentiment, but Jose does like players who work hard.
Fellaini, Lingard, McT, Lukaku, Valencia, etc - all work extremely hard.
Even though they are technically limited, Jose likes them because they play with passion and have the attitude that they will run through brick walls for the team. Unfortunately, most of our fans don't appreciate this sentiment. They prefer players who are technically gifted, rather than grafters.
While I do like technical players, as we saw against Huddersfield, grafters can and will beat a team which better technically, if the technical team lack work-rate.
If you look at MCFC, their attackers, all work very hard in the final 3rd - constantly moving around. These are technical players, who graft and as a result are breaking league records.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeau...ionel_messis_efficiency_he_runs_fewer_meters/
Bailly ran the least of any player in the CL this season.
2nd least was Messi!
Bailly ran the least of any player in the CL this season.
2nd least was Messi!
I think Juventus, Barca and Real just have better build up from deeper areas which allow them to get inbetween lines quicker. We have a problem with that stemming from our back line.
Our fullbacks being that low is criminal imo. You'd expect them to cover the most.
Yup. Valencia and Young’s stats are pretty awful.
In terms of the distances you’d expect to see based on the positions played it’s fecking bonkers to see all but one of our central defenders covering more ground than Lukaku, Valencia and Martial. That’s a shocking state of affairs.
On another note, it would be interesting to know what percentage of distance covered were sprints.
When you consider that our wingers spend most of the game infield and are inverted, the stats look even worse.
Are there any stats showing how much possession a player has which would give a vital context to the number and duration of sprints they would be able to do since when you have the ball you're either going to pass or dribble.
No player sprints every time they have the ball and we have to assume dribbling not to be part of the sprinting stats being collect. No player is going to sprint when they have the ball so I would expect a player who has more of the ball to have lower sprint stats analogous to a sliding scale(more of one means less of the other).
No player sprints every time they have the ball and we have to assume dribbling not to be part of the sprinting stats being collect. No player is going to sprint when they have the ball so I would expect a player who has more of the ball to have lower sprint stats analogous to a sliding scale(more of one means less of the other).
What sprint stats are you referring to?
To be fair it's not surprising, Lukaku plays in a sort of box, he is often between or around the CBs and doesn't move a lot from that position, he has good little movements but he doesn't operate on the entire front. Though it's not due to a lack of ability because when he actually plays with spatial freedom, he is excellent.
Our fullbacks are just weird, they don't play much in the last 20 and they aren't key in our counter attacks, I'm pretty sure that it's tactical.
Fair point about Lukaku but Blind and Darmian seem to cover > 10% more ground than Valencia/Young which implies there’s more to the poor stats of the latter two than just tactics.
It can still be tactical, two players playing the same position can have two different sets of instructions most likely due to a difference of skillset which will also explains why Blind-Darmian play a lot less than Valencia-Young, the latter are a better fit in the eyes of the manager. Adriano and Abidal are an example of that, two different players at the same position with different games.
I doubt Young and Valencia are incapable of busting their arses though. I mean it's one of their strengths surely (their physical attributes)?
Is this perhaps just tactics rather than individuals? Just thought I'd mention that before another couple of fullbacks take their place and we see the same sort of numbers.
Is this perhaps just tactics rather than individuals? Just thought I'd mention that before another couple of fullbacks take their place and we see the same sort of numbers.
It has been, but they're both 32 years old now. They both still have decent pace and stamina but I doubt they'd tell you that getting up and down the flank is as easy as it was 5 years ago
I was talking about individual posession stats (not sprint stats) to get a context that allows a more usefull/preactical interprolation of a players performance. Sprinting stats alone in my opinion is too reductionist. Different contributions depend on the context including roles, possition and if they are with and without the ball etc.
My opinion is that sprint stats alone would show someone with less distance but not the nuances around why they sprinted less which included having possesion of the ball or not and what they could do at the time. For example if he was not pressing because the ball was not in his sides possesion or too far away for him to track to without leaving his team wide open.
It has been clear for some while that Valencia is not capable of playing more than one match per week without it having a huge impact on his performance level; reminds me of when Moyes started Rio at the weekend then in midweek.
Alexander-Arnold 115m
Robertson 113m (only 1 match)
Trippier 134m
Moreno 117m
Aurier 116m
Ben Davies 124m
What sprint stats are you talking about? I haven’t seen any sprint stats in this thread. Am I missing something?
I was critical of Sanchez this season when he was moping around at Arsenal. His work rate is deceptive because it looks like he's putting in the shift but actually he only did it when the ball was nearby. Then he was like a headless chicken rampaging out of position but then the opposition play around him and he was out of the picture. Aside from that he gesticulated and bemoaned his team mates which seemed passionate if you excused his own carelessness with the ball.
I like Sanchez as a player but he's not someone I see as a thinker on the pitch. He does his own thing out of possession. If you want to press you need more than one player but if you want to keep compact, one player playing his own game is selfish. In his last months at Arsenal he was like a spoilt kid expecting to be indulged.
Those are interesting. Makes Blind and Darmian’s mileage almost acceptable. Young, Valencia (and Martial) still miles off the pace though.
The stats for Sanchez are based on two games in which the whole team was up to nothing at all, so I'm not sure are a fair basis to make any judgement.
Lukaku as well, operates in the final third and only the final third. That's what we bought him to do, that's what Jose told everyone we'd bought him to do. If we're not getting the ball into that third of the pitch there's only so much running about he can realistically do. So again I'm not sure it's a fair reflection on him.
I'd be less worried about individuals and more that it seems to be a consistent problem for the team as a whole.
The stats showing the CL work rate for each team are not good. Yes Real, Juve, Bayern and Barca are down there with us, but Real lost to Spurs because they couldn't be bothered to get back when they lost the ball...something you just wont see them do in a knockout game. Juve nearly went out IN a knockout game with the main reason being that they couldn't match Tottenham's work rate. Barcelona cruised through the group stage without needing to break a sweat, while Bayern were bad enough in the group games that their manager got sacked as a direct result. The point is, in context, none of these teams offer up any proof or evidence that working less hard than other teams isn't a disadvantage. Some even offer more evidence that it is a disadvantage.
The real damming stat I suspect would be if we had the same stats for PL teams. I suspect we wouldn't just be lagging behind the other top four sides. We'd be lagging behind pretty much everyone. People will say "yeah, but we're second, so what does it prove"...it proves that we're 2nd and aren't working as hard as we could be to do any better.
It proves that in the games where you see us appear to lose or struggle because we can't be fecked putting in the same level of work as the opposition are, this is in fact exactly what is happening.
If it's tactical then someone needs to be offering up a good explanation as to what these tactics actually are. I've yet to see us win a game this or last season where it has been evident that the reason why is because we conserved more energy than the other team. I've seen us lose a few times for the opposite reason though. Notably for example at Stamford Bridge this season, where it looked like we were playing with 10 men, and then the stats showed that in terms of work rate, it was more like 9 1/2.
That’s exactly what they show. As per my “Workrate” thread.
Talking to sprint stats in relation to work rate as is being alluded to on this thread. I asked the question if anyone had or knew of sprint stats alongside individual possession stats to bet a better picture of work/rate and performance. Work rate can't exist without sprint stats unless everyone is walking or standing still. Maybe I have gone mad.
Edit:
No I have not gone mad yet. There are over 70 or so posts and mentions of sprinting and the main sprint stats were actually posted by yourself.
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Yeah sorry I meant over the whole season, as again 4 games can be misleading...though the stats could be hiding somewhere in this thread. I'm too lazy to look as I've exhausted my energy complaining about lazyness.
Most of these stats are quite damning. Exceptions being Sanchez and Lukaku imo. Sanchez pressures a lot, but it's usually in the same area. His attacking has been affected by us...well not really attacking since he's been here. The one half we have he scored a goal from a nice run.
Ok, right. All the discussion post-bump was about the CL stats. Which are a straight forward distance vs time. Doesn’t matter whether they’re dribbling, pressing, walking, whatever. Which is why your last few posts were hard to understand in that context.
I was hoping not to do any of the work and find a nice little set of stats showing all that stuff
Very interesting stats. Think they go some way in explaining why Real and juve struggled vs Spurs and why Barca conceded many chances vs Chelsea and 4 woodworks. I expected a much more convincing performance from Barca.
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This is interesting when it comes to the other teams around us at the bottom end of the CL distances table. When you dominate possession to that extent I guess it’s easier to conserve energy and let the ball do the work. Not an excuse that applies to us.
EDIT: On a side note, we may have underestimated Sevilla’s quality on the ball...
Don't think we did. Nzonzi noted that we didn't press them for it.
I assume, we just let them have it.
Hm? Any link mate?
Quality of opposition also matters, no team will run themselves to the ground if the game is already won.
Barca crashed out of the CL after they run just 102 km. Juve did great last night because they run nearly 10 km more than Madrid - 120 km. Even the teams with the best individuals can't succeed without working hard. From the remaining teams Liverpool are the hardest working team and could pose problems to any of the other teams if they don't show sufficient energy.
At the turn of the year, Sanchez was averaging 5.8m per game and lowest metre per minute at his club in the 16-17 season. It seems to have improved slightly, but it certainly appears that he's on the decline. I was hoping he'd be the workhorse to infect the rest of the team with his spirit, but I'm not sure he can really do that over the course of 90 minutes anymore.