Workrate

Djemba-Djemba

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What kind of list is that? Lingard runs his ass off. There are countless examples of Lukaku busting a gut to get back. Mata never stops running. Lukaku being out of shape and Mata being slow doesn't change the fact they often work very hard on the pitch.
How does Lukaku being fat and out of shape not affect how hard he can work on the pitch?

It's exactly because his fitness is so disgraceful that he can only manage about 30 minutes of hard work and then after that he's blowing out his arse.
 

Patrick08

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This is why workrate is so important. Workrate trumps talent if the talent doesn't work hard enough.
 

Treble

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Yep, Barca's poor work rate is the main reason for their problems in Europe.
 

Chairman Steve

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We see Liverpool players sprinting like Usain Bolt in second half stoppage time.

Meanwhile Pogba and ‘Rashy’ stop and throw a fit if they get dispossessed one time, with Lukaku doing more finger pointing on the pitch than Robbie Keane at Spurs.
 

VorZakone

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We see Liverpool players sprinting like Usain Bolt in second half stoppage time.

Meanwhile Pogba and ‘Rashy’ stop and throw a fit if they get dispossessed one time, with Lukaku doing more finger pointing on the pitch than Robbie Keane at Spurs.
Lukaku's pointing actually infuriates me.
 

Minimalist

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They rode their luck with Barca missing chances in the first half but if you don't see what work rate does (the 2nd half) for your chances after watching that - you're just denying the obvious.

Quality is obviously the difference at the very tip-top level and we need that. But jesus christ how far away are we from working our balls off like that (and City do the same to be fair).
 

OneUnited24

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This is why workrate is so important. Workrate trumps talent if the talent doesn't work hard enough.
But it needs to be built over time. You can’t expect to see it overnight. I don’t know what we do in training but I’m going to bet it’s not a patch over what other top teams do
 

SteveW

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We a fecking miles off their fitness and workrate. I couldn't even imagine most of our players doing it.

Ole is right in his assessment.
 

Minimalist

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But it needs to be built over time. You can’t expect to see it overnight. I don’t know what we do in training but I’m going to bet it’s not a patch over what other top teams do
According to ALOT of posters, it's just an excuse Ole is using and he should have fixed it already.

It's fecking clear as day from the last few performances. They're a disgrace in terms of professionalism.
 

Patrick08

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But it needs to be built over time. You can’t expect to see it overnight. I don’t know what we do in training but I’m going to bet it’s not a patch over what other top teams do
You gotta buy players who have high engine and stamina unlike players like matic pogba lukaku mata martial and lingard.
 

Fooza

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That was some work rate Liverpool showed today, can we have some of that pie please?

What funny is how everyone usually say at the end of the season work rates drop off but today it was as though Liverpool were playing their first game of the season. I really don't want to hear any excuses of dropped work rate levels from our team, it really should be till the last game of the season.
 

caid

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Klopp’s dialled it down too, they don’t do that mental high gangenpressing stuff anymore where their forwards are running at full pelt for the first 20 minutes.
Maybe you need the mental high press every week for a season before you dial it down, so you can turn it back on when the situation warrants.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Maybe you need the mental high press every week for a season before you dial it down, so you can turn it back on when the situation warrants.
His Dortmund style didn’t really work in England, they had many late collapses. This season they’re more compact and press more intelligently. Biesla is another who runs his teams to hard which leads to late season collapses.
 

caid

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His Dortmund style didn’t really work in England, they had many late collapses. This season they’re more compact and press more intelligently. Biesla is another who runs his teams to hard which leads to late season collapses.
I know, I just dont see how they could do what they did tonight without doing it week in, week out for a season. It wasn't just fitness and workrate, the execution was pretty perfect.
Wouldn't it be nice to try and hold the players back from running themselves into the ground incidentally.
 

Patrick08

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I know, I just dont see how they could do what they did tonight without doing it week in, week out for a season. It wasn't just fitness and workrate, the execution was pretty perfect.
Wouldn't it be nice to try and hold the players back from running themselves into the ground incidentally.
Coaching. I think we did well at oldtrafford to stop them after the goal. Its just that we are shit on the ball and our pathetic players doesn't bother to put in a shift.
 

el3mel

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Watching Liverpool playing this at the end of the season then looking at our heavy paid clowns being unable to move their arses against the team sitting at the bottom of the table.

Crap.
 

OneUnited24

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According to ALOT of posters, it's just an excuse Ole is using and he should have fixed it already.

It's fecking clear as day from the last few performances. They're a disgrace in terms of professionalism.
I honestly don’t see how you can fix this during the season. You over work players in training it shows in games. Hell maybe that’s why we look so slow.

The way I think of it is like we spent the first half of the season and preseason training for a 10k but now are trying to run a marathon. Hell it goes as far back as lvg where positioning was more important than closing down. As someone else mentioned we need to get away from towering players that Jose liked and go for players who have good work rate
 
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DenResched

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herewith few articles about players fitness :

https://blog.pitchero.com/how-fit-are-premier-league-players

Scientific article by Rafa Benitez :
http://www.rafabenitez.com/web/in/blog/stamina-training-in-a-football-team/19/

more interesting article :
https://www.sportsciencesupport.com/training-endurance-for-football-is-it-enough-just-to-play-football/

improving vo2 max?
https://www.active.com/running/articles/how-to-maximize-your-vo2max-training

Did Solkjaer made up excuses about fitness level? If only we have access to players fitness data during each regime to understand.

Sorry for sharing links, I always prefer to do some research before judge anything.
 

Minimalist

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herewith few articles about players fitness :

https://blog.pitchero.com/how-fit-are-premier-league-players

Scientific article by Rafa Benitez :
http://www.rafabenitez.com/web/in/blog/stamina-training-in-a-football-team/19/

more interesting article :
https://www.sportsciencesupport.com/training-endurance-for-football-is-it-enough-just-to-play-football/

improving vo2 max?
https://www.active.com/running/articles/how-to-maximize-your-vo2max-training

Did Solkjaer made up excuses about fitness level? If only we have access to players fitness data during each regime to understand.

Sorry for sharing links, I always prefer to do some research before judge anything.
What is your argument? We’re not reading all those links - what’s your summary?

If you’re trying to suggest we don’t have fitness issues I have to laugh.
 

el3mel

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It's depressing watch Pool and City players caring so much about the shirt that we're at the end of the season and they don't stop running their socks off 90 minutes a game.

Meanwhile our heavy paid clowns jog and sulk the entire game and act like they only care about getting their salary per week before fecking off from the sinking ship eventually.
 

Hoof The Ball

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Watch Liverpool and you'll be surprised that it's not in their pressing that Liverpool are most energetic. It's in the second ball. Liverpool have by far the best 2nd ball retention rate in the game today. If there was a measurable statistic that detailed what % of 2nd balls they won, it'd be astonishing. Why are they so effective in the press? because the positioning in the different phases for the press is incredibly well drilled and designed to keep them within ten yards of any opposition player who has the ball, which in turn creates the impression that they're running huge amounts to close down space. That's what mastering positional pressing does.
 

DenResched

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What is your argument? We’re not reading all those links - what’s your summary?

If you’re trying to suggest we don’t have fitness issues I have to laugh.
That articles is a solid argument about how MUFC fitness level affect their performance :yawn:
 
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People need to quit confusing pressing with work rate. Pressing is a planned strategy. Liverpool use the particular style of gegen pressing the steals second balls. A Cty use the full press the Ernst Happel's and Rinus Michels'.


What United need to do is
a) sort our fitness regime
b) actually train pressing as a tactical strategy. Not just relying on work rate and sheer force of numbers to press
 

DenResched

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What is your argument? We’re not reading all those links - what’s your summary?

If you’re trying to suggest we don’t have fitness issues I have to laugh.
and..

with anyone who will stay or come this summer, they're human too, aside of FM, FIFA, PES stats alike, the manager need to :

1. Set their head right. Mentallity must need to be address before physicalities or tactics. People are different by nature, some run faster to survive, some jump higher to reach the goal. Harder if the players are not in the same mould, easier if they're. Instill correct mentality and mind set, a soldier will happily die for the purpose.

2. Improve the fitness level to fit the system while

3. Teach and implement the system so every muscle in their body remembers. Most of the time players didnt have time to think, and lead by instinct. If they understand the system implemented, fast flowing football always beautiful thing to see.

4. Since it's MUFC, the best club in the world, any appointed managers should do all of that while still required to smile in front of camera, in less than few games. Hoping that crucial games like local derby or red derby will wait untill everything good enough. Or..

5. Stay hidden from media and fans and never ever check social media until get the results right or fired.
 

Teja

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Our pressing under Ole is basically a joke. There's no coherence to the team and players (when they press) basically run around like headless chickens without the rest of the team following up and blocking off passing options. Atleast under Mourinho we had a philosophy for pressing (avoid the high press and get back in shape as quickly as possible) and that made us defensively solid last season.

We went from
- Moyes (I don't even know if he had a system)
- to LVG (team press high after losing possession, get back in shape if the other team's able to pass it out)
- to Mou (don't press at all and emphasis on getting back into and retaining defensive shape)
- Ole - Tried the high press, get a bunch of injuries and then drop off into Mourinho mode and emphasis on defensive shape

It's no wonder we're not coherent at all. Having picked LVG we should have had a good follow up coach if he didn't work out who emphasized the same kind of philosophy. We then went with Mou and okay he gave us a couple of decent seasons but not consistent progress.

To play the kind of football that Liverpool or City or basically any modern team plays we need to decide what kind of football we want to play and get the right coaches and players for it. If we're ready to back Ole for a couple of years come rain or shine, then get fit, quick, young players who are not injury prone and let him implement his system.
 
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Canagel

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Pressing is tactical and requires coaching on which zone to press etc. Not something any players choose to do it by themself.
 

DeepSpace

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Pressing is tactical and requires coaching on which zone to press etc. Not something any players choose to do it by themself.
Exactly. The players need to hunt in packs once they sense a turnover situation. I mean, fitness and player IQ helps but coaching is a big factor too.
 

caid

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Exactly. The players need to hunt in packs once they sense a turnover situation. I mean, fitness and player IQ helps but coaching is a big factor too.
1 player making a half assed attempt at closing down will undo any effort the other players or the coach have put into it. We have a good few players who dont really like defending
 
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1 player making a half assed attempt at closing down will undo any effort the other players or the coach have put into it. We have a good few players who dont really like defending
liking to defend is not requirement for pressing. Collective strategy is. Under a tactical pressing coach a team of Ozil's could press another team mercilessly out of possession easily
 

DeepSpace

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1 player making a half assed attempt at closing down will undo any effort the other players or the coach have put into it. We have a good few players who dont really like defending
You're right, a single player's actions (be it lazy defending, or a honest misjudging of the situation) could undo a good press. However, I'd imagine that good coaches have contingencies planned for these kinds of situations. Of course, if a player is half arsed all the time, then that's insubordination in my book and he should be out of the team regardless - this has nothing to do with liking to defend or not. They just need to follow instructions
 

OLLY ORANGE

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Having watched the game last night. The biggest observation between the two teams was the work rate. Fair play as mentioned by others Liverpools work rate on and off the ball was miles better. Numerous times when the Barca front line lost possession Messi and others tracking back was totally non existent. How many times did Messi have his hands on his hips when a liverpool players had the ball within 10 yards of him. One of the best player in the world with the ball but not one the hardest working players with out the ball in the world. And it cost them.
In past seasons gone by quick high pressing teams normally burn out before the end of the season, not this liverpool side. Either early elimination from other cup competitions or a much greater squad depth of atheletes has helped them out?
 

Teja

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In past seasons gone by quick high pressing teams normally burn out before the end of the season, not this liverpool side. Either early elimination from other cup competitions or a much greater squad depth of atheletes has helped them out?
They also don't employ a full counter press every game and prefer to just get back in defense instead which helps with the injuries. It's a balance. It still needed a lot of fitness and drilling judging by his first couple of seasons but consistency is paying off.