I'm not a Maguire hater but I do wonder if a change of captain may increase the work rate of the squad.
Getting shouted at home Bruno for example would be more scary or influential than whatever Maguire is doing.
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Getting shouted at home Bruno for example would be more scary or influential than whatever Maguire is doing.
This team is wack, what we have are poor defenders and midfielders. We pass the ball side way and was never threatening. Attacker try to get past the last defender but there are no vision and ability to deliver. Over time, nobody will make runs. The only person who tries is Fernández, not Fred not McTominay not Matic not Maguire, not Varane. Rashford and Elanga maybe possibly Ronaldo might win the foot race. Can Scholes or Beckham or Carrick come out of retirement? Obviously we have a very bad team. Nobody knows how football should be played.
You cant build a club to play possession football for 2 years, then to play physical park the bus football for 2.5, then to counter attacking football for 3 years to Gegenpressing in half a year - then potentially back to possesion football again.
Players are suited to different things.
On top of that you have multiple players and even legends not doing anything - why would you be the only one wanting to work hard at the office either?
Let's get a team orientation back and ditch everyone that doesn't fit or want to play thet football. Let's try build upon that continuously.
Players are suited to different things.
On top of that you have multiple players and even legends not doing anything - why would you be the only one wanting to work hard at the office either?
Let's get a team orientation back and ditch everyone that doesn't fit or want to play thet football. Let's try build upon that continuously.
I do not think a captain needs to be scary (Bruno is a moaner but no ones takes him seriously)
exemplary in terms of effort and performances would sufficeJust because you have higher percentage of possession doesn't mean you dominated
Neither am I.
And high work rate should come from within. Not just because of the captain.
In reality, there are no real captains in the whole squad.
A good captain leads by example.
And no one does that.
But I do agree that Maguire has not been a good captain.
When you are struggling yourself, it is not the time to be the captain.
You need to reduce the pressure, not increase it.
But a manager’s job is to motivate his players into putting in a shift, not just talking about it to the media
I think it's part poor form/attitude from the players and part related to the fact that in most games we have more possession but a total inability to break down teams (yesterday's game vs everton for example).
The fact that we're poor in possession and critically way off any half decent team has been a long standing issue, so far I'd say that the reasons for that are :
- lack of quality in midfield
- slow passing across the pitch (so not only due to the lack of quality from the midfielders)
- no coordinated yo-yo runs (where players, our attacking ones in particular, don't come in to show for the ball to quickly then bust a gut to get in the box/in space)
The fact that we're poor in possession and critically way off any half decent team has been a long standing issue, so far I'd say that the reasons for that are :
- lack of quality in midfield
- slow passing across the pitch (so not only due to the lack of quality from the midfielders)
- no coordinated yo-yo runs (where players, our attacking ones in particular, don't come in to show for the ball to quickly then bust a gut to get in the box/in space)
It's got to be such a difficult thing to turn around. When you have 1-2 players who are lazy or a poor influence it's straight forward as Fergie did several times to cut them out before others follow suit. However if the majority of a squad aren't putting the work in (whether due to age or laziness) what's the solution?
This summer we can't realistically get rid of Pogba, Ronaldo, Rashford, Matic, AWB, Shaw, Greenwood, Mata, Maguire, VDB, Martial, Cavani, Lingard etc and even if we did we'd still have the likes of Sancho who haven't exactly been busting a gut (let alone the technical quality we'd be left with).
Whoever the next manager is has an incredibly tough task that's for sure. It's a tight line to walk between not alienating the squad that remains and getting them working much harder without rebellion, whilst also ensuring new signings aren't corrupted by our current players' laziness. Especially given our squads penchant for briefing the media if things don't go their way.
This is how I felt about him too. He's under alot of pressure to perform now so I don't see why he should have the pressure of captaining the squad.
I don't really blame him for yesterday's goal for example - but it would look better a deflected goal coming off a non confident player than our captain to add to a tonne of of mistakes he has made.
I just think it can increase confidence in our squad and therefore maybe even work rate.
Am interim manager who has 2 months left is not going to motivate these players when these kind of opportunities to get top 4 place doesn't motivate them.
The original post was made on 2016. That's 3 different managers now, where the workrate is nowhere near expected.
I think that's a direct consequence of the club rewarding players, even if they are not putting in the required effort. Look at the contracts they have given out.
What's interesting for me is if the sporting people have more say, such as Murtough/Fletch, surely they recognize this lack of effort and will work with manager in improving this aspect of things? We shall see. If that doesn't change then you know the nothings changed and it's likely the suits/owners have complete say in contracts. Which is what we all suspect. But here's blindly hoping things change.
This is partly system. I said in match thread yesteday; where are the goals meant to come from in this system? Where do they come from? You play 4-2-4, your two CMs dont get near the box or break from deep or get ahead of the ball. You just crab the ball sideways between them and the full back and then the only real connection you have on the pitch because of the system is between full back and inside forwards, who link up look for a 2 v 1 and an overlap or underlap and then get a cross in to the far post. That is it. The sum of our attacking play. Put 10 crosses in a game, goalkeeper catches 6 of them, another 3 headed away, and you get one chance a game.
Yeah, fair point(s). The next manager has a horrendous job on his hands.
That would be a very realistic start.
Is there no metric for this? Distance covered or some shit like that?
What is he supposed to do when the people who run the club actually believe that we are/were going to be dominant again with the likes of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood leading the line for the foreseeable future, and then go on to put them on ridiculous contracts like a prophet who has looked into his crystal ball and seen the future? What is he supposed to do when Raiola shits on the club every other day and tells us that his client is doing us a favour by staying here, and we gladly sit at the table, willing to make Pogba the best paid player in the PL? Again, what is he supposed to do when one of the highest-paid keepers in the world asks to be trained by the coach of his choosing because he didn't like it when LvG tried to improve his ball distribution and the club is more than willing to oblige him? When Lingard acts like a dick and dross like Mata, Jones and Matic stink the place and they still get rewarded? And the list goes on.
I'll keep saying it. The Solskjaer after the Everton presser and the Solskjaer in his pre-season interview are two entirely different people. The sad thing is that, out of respect for the club, he will never open his mouth. The bad thing is that, for 3 whole years, he presided over the pandering of a squad that never possessed title-winning quality by baptizing purple patches of form and the simplest of "sit back and hit on the counter" football as the return of the "United DNA". Three years down the drain, while City and Pool were becoming the best teams in the world. And when Klopp was spending £150 million for the finishing touches to perfect his vision (Virgil and Alisson), we were giving away the same amount of money for Maguire and AWB to do... what exactly, no one knows. To allow Rashford, Martial and Greenwood to not track back, by the looks of it.
We have to walk a tightrope, come the summer. Balance the exits with fewer but good and well-thought signings that will help the manager instil his vision and will also make the fans see the new direction.
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This has been a problem for years now. Even under Ole our general plan was to play ultra direct and eventually something would come off.
The only time we have briefly looked a threat was a couple of games around Christmas when I vividly remember seeing us play some low passes into the box. I think Fred scored or got an assist from one. That's what City and Liverpool do constantly. They don't cross in the traditional sense. They pass to team mates with ground passes or low crosses and cutbacks.
That might be a problem.I do not think a captain needs to be scary (Bruno is a moaner but no ones takes him seriously)
We have targeted the wrong type of players. Who in recent years has been brought in who is capable of playing a high intensity style? Fred and Bruno might be the only two. Sancho was noted for his lack of pressing intensity in Germany, Ronaldo hasn't pressed in years, Cavani at his peak yes, but not this broken down version, Pogba was always a stroller, AWB and Shaw are mediocre in that regard, Matic was physically gone by the end of his Chelsea tenure, Lukaku was only slightly better than Ronaldo in that aspect. Even the players they have brought through don't really have that in them, Rashford does it in spells not continuously, Greenwood was offering nothing defensively from the wing, MCT has his moments but struggles to maintain it.
Elanga getting a run illustrates this, he is not good enough to play at this level yet, but they needed an attacker who could put a shift in and at least attempt to press.
Utd are like AC Milan were when they started to become a retirement home for star names.
Too many passengers defensively, no wonder the back 4 have been a mess this season, there is so little protection in front of them and the midfield are getting slaughtered covering massive space.
We sold Dan James who I think I’d genuinely like at the club over Rashford at this stage. Obviously not as a starter but at least he worked hard, shown with his assist for Raphinha yesterday…
Agree with that.
James lacks too many things but he lasted as long as he did because of his willingness to make the hard runs again and again. Such a simple concept that rarely gets talked about but crucial to success of a team. You can't carry passengers, we have tried to build teams around players like that. Giggs(especially) and Beckham could have played on the last man, came out with better goal stats but been vastly inferior players. The got up and down all match, knowing the majority of these runs would not end with them getting the ball, but it was still a key part of what they did.
City and Liverpool have it, you can easily point out the technical superiority but look at the difference team wide when they lose the ball, the desire to get back into shape or press aggressively. Utd players walk back, easy to shit on Fred and McTominay with their limitations but the guys in front of them are near worthless out of possession.
You can carry one special player in side, but we are carrying far too many. If you had an Eric Cantona talent, you do not mind if he might not always track back, because other players would do that. Except Eric did his share of the work. We do not have that talent in the squad, but a number think they are that good and do not have to put the work in. Which leaves others doing more work than they should be. Eventually the overworked players cannot do it any longer either.
We dominated the ball, as in we had more of the ball - that's a fact. What we failed to do - as is the case in most games, is put teams under constant pressure because we haven't a plan, no real strategy and flow to our game. As a result, we become very easy to play against. This needs to change.
Had we won yesterday, this thread would not have been bumped.
This takes two hands to clap. The work rate issue has been evident under Mourinho, Ole and now RR. We can judge that RR isn't doing a great job at motivating the players but without being in the dressing room we can't say he's not trying. The players, however, we can see because it's all out on the pitch. And frankly, these players are paid well enough to at least put in a shift with or without a manager motivating them.
Thread wouldn't have been but the initial OP wouldn't have been any less valid
Agreed but I was talking about the game against Everton yesterday not in 2016 when the thread was made.
I don't wanna single out someone like Martial but it feels like slowly United signed a lot of players who just don't work hard and it kinda spread to the players at the club. That kinda attitude is contagious and dear I say toxic, I think that combined with players constantly getting passes in the media for less than stellar performances lowered the bar quite a bit and only a reset is gonna fix it. I remember Rashford as a kid (19 I think) tormenting City, running everywhere and City simply couldn't deal with him. Single handedly aged DeMechilis by about 5 years but it feels like the lowering of standards around him has hit him and some others.
Also a little bit of when the world is against you, you just don't have the same motivation regardless of who you are. United have been very streaky for the last 4 or 5 years, great run, poor run etc... you only have to look at Everton to see how a few things going wrong can quickly destroy a dressing room.
Of course I could be miles off and its only really guessing, maybe the players do give everything but its unlikely to have 4 terrible coaches in a row. I don't think many of your players would be given the same luxury under Klopp I'll put it that way.
Nope you are spot on it's toxic and they couldn't give a toss, shame because had we got Klopp would be an all Manchester title battle now instead.
FBref have pressing stats
https://fbref.com/en/players/8b788c01/scout/10728/Anthony-Martial-Scouting-Report
https://fbref.com/en/players/dea698d9/scout/11160/Cristiano-Ronaldo-Scouting-Report
https://fbref.com/en/players/a1d5bd30/scout/11160/Marcus-Rashford-Scouting-Report
https://fbref.com/en/players/dbf053da/scout/365_euro/Jadon-Sancho-Scouting-Report
As you can see, we have a problem here!
One of the problems with talking about this is the response that sometimes comes back, "Pashun and Brexit", an intellectual snobbery as if people are asking for workrate over talent, when in reality it has to be both. We should never have made excuses for the likes of Pogba, Martial and Shaw, and been so afraid of losing talented players that compromises were continually made.
Exactly this. You have to demand excellent workrate from your talented players, not replace them with untalented workers.
People hate the 'pashun' argument...but the difference in intensity between every top team and the shower of shit we serve up is crazy.
80% of our players look completely disengaged, even in big games. Meanwhile Rudiger's currently playing like he'd break his neck to win a throw in.
80% of our players look completely disengaged, even in big games. Meanwhile Rudiger's currently playing like he'd break his neck to win a throw in.
We can go back further, Rooney was the first player I can think of that got away with it.
They're ignorant, they could keep watching United getting bullied for the next 10 seasons and still wonder how we lose with so many "world class" players.
What age is Modric like? He literally hasn't stopped tonight. Sprinting at both ends of the field right through 90 minutes and extra time.
Some players lack the mentality or physicality to do it. I have played with some players who were so talented in training but cautious, hesitant and timid in matches. Rashford is a great example.
You want players who have that inner fierceness and aggression. When there's a 50:50 or a bouncing ball, how often do you expect our ladd to come out on top?
I get the impression that it's mostly from kids who don't understand what football is like in the real world.
The only experience they have is from playing FIFA, where all it takes to build a good team is to select players with high technical stats. Then they get to use their control pad to make it all work in the game. What they fail to understand is the psychology and dressing room culture that makes a well-functioning team. Because none of that gets simulated on their Xbox, they assume it doesn't matter in real life.
'Passion' seems to get a bad rap because pundits used to use the word in the 90s to explain how inferior teams could beat superior teams. But whatever term you want to use, it's an important factor that everyone from Barcelona to Brazil have had in abundance.
Great point to make, as with the comment above about Rudiger by Martial'sEmergingSmile. The same Rudiger who might be off, either way he's no passenger.
These players know there is no hiding place given the technology today and their only legitimate excuse is if they've done everything the manager asked but still lost.
We've clearly got players who are not at the required level of physical or mental fitness to compete.
Work rate, watch the 96 FA Cup final, v the scum, a young side with a few old heads In it, a not very watchable game, Roy Keane was everywhere in that game. These new breed of football stars need to take something from that.
The closest I've seen to Keane is Kante. Robson was another the young guys need to watch on how to play that position. Work rate should come naturally along with there ability.
The closest I've seen to Keane is Kante. Robson was another the young guys need to watch on how to play that position. Work rate should come naturally along with there ability.