Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[momo83]

Disagree. World class we have De Gea. Rashford is approaching world class and his top years. Pogba has the ability of a world class player without any consistent application. The rest are either not consistent enough, young and inexperienced, or simply not good enough.

It’s not about world class. Give Roy Hodgson the same signings that Klopp has had and Liverpool won’t be the best team in Europe. Because it’s Hodgson fans will blame Hodgson. If Gerrard was Manager and had those signings the fans wound blame the board, except for Allison and VVD none of pools signings were elite. Klopp gets the best out out them and makes them world class.

 

[meamth]

It’s remarkable that you can imply other posters are toxic after posts like this. ‘They think like a grown man’, ‘cancer of this forum’. Get a fecking grip.

Well you if you don't bite back after been bitten, then you're deluded.

They started first, calling people deluded, clueless, why can't I?

 

[Bobcat]

Well there is no evidence of progress in any of the things you listed. The composition of the squad is absolutely the worse thing about Solskjaer, he gutted it to the level of a mid table club. The often used line of him culling deadwood is a defence I see of him regularly when in reality he cut the squad and marginalised players who could have contributed this season.

The overall management of the squad is atrocious too. There's a reason we have so many long term injuries and that goes back to his decision to sell first team players. The excuse of he was hampered by the board is just that, a convenient excuse. If he knew he wasnt going to backed to replace players he shouldn't have sanctioned their departures.

Tactically I genuinely don't know how we set up or what his long term vision is in this regard. We absolutely should be seeing this 12 months into his tenure. In big games we set up to contain and hit on the break and its has been successful in two of our big games this season. But against the other 14 teams in the league we look clueless with no obviously tactical direction. Also the insistence of trying to play out of the back constantly is baffling.

Despite what you have previously insinuated I would absolutely love Ole to turn this around. He was one of my favourite players growing up. But rose tinted glasses aside he is not a top coach, and nothing I've seen has suggested he will become one.

Out: Fellaini, Smalling, Sanchez, Young, Rojo, Darmian, Herrera, Valencia, Lukaku
Should be out: Baily, Jones, Lindgard, Shaw, Mata*, Matic*, Pereira
*Good players, just too old

9 players have left, either on permanent or loan and imo about 7 more should be moved on sooner rather than later. Whether you like it or not, trimming the squad had to be done. We have the second highest wage bill in the league and way, WAY too many passengers in the squad. About half of our frankly massive turnover went towards paying wages. Considering the likes of Lindgard, Shaw, Young, Lindelof, Mata and Matic was/is on over 100k/week that not sustainable.

Bruno is now reportedly on 70k/week, which is much more sensible and it seems Woody has actually learned a thing or two

Step 1 on the rebuild always had to be a clearout. When you consider the sheer number of players that needed moving on it was always going to be a difficult process with moving them on and replacing them. You say Ole, gutted the squad, which is right to some extent, but which of these players do you really think would have made a meaningful difference on the pitch?

In any case, this process of replacing players could be done in two ways. Fast and painful (like we have been doing) or gradual or slow where we did it 2-3 players at a time maybe. Cons of doing it fast is of course that it leaves you thin and vulnerable to injuries. The other method makes you less vulnerable but it would also mean the clear out/rebuild would drag on for years and years

 

[Ish]

Well for me, it's not harsh at all, compared to the out brigade extremists.

They call us deluded, accepting mediocrity, clueless, etc...

Thing is though, the ones who are supporting Ole is being realistic. They think like a grown man, instead of telling people Ole is not a professional coach/manager, we accept the reason why we're in this situation. When we post something like this, then they will come and attack, which is stupid.

I'm telling you, the cancer of this forum is the ones who always find something to criticize about, they are restless until we've won a fecking title.

Yeah, if you’re unable to see 2 sides to the argument then it’s best to just agree to disagree then & move on.

 

[devilish]

Well for me, it's not harsh at all, compared to the out brigade extremists.

They call us deluded, accepting mediocrity, clueless, etc...

Thing is though, the ones who are supporting Ole is being realistic. They think like a grown man, instead of telling people Ole is not a professional coach/manager, we accept the reason why we're in this situation. When we post something like this, then they will come and attack, which is stupid.

I'm telling you, the cancer of this forum is the ones who always find something to criticize about, they are restless until we've won a fecking title.

this us vs them camp is hilarious. We're all Manchester United supporters. You find people who can discuss an argument eloquently and those who do not. I've seen crap being thrown around both by the Ole in and Ole out camp.

Also describing people as a cancer is disgusting and its against the rules as well.

 

[devilish]

Out: Fellaini, Smalling, Sanchez, Young, Rojo, Darmian, Herrera, Valencia, Lukaku
Should be out: Baily, Jones, Lindgard, Shaw, Mata*, Matic*, Pereira
*Good players, just too old

9 players have left, either on permanent or loan and imo about 7 more should be moved on sooner rather than later. Whether you like it or not, trimming the squad had to be done. We have the second highest wage bill in the league and way, WAY too many passengers in the squad. About half of our frankly massive turnover went towards paying wages. Considering the likes of Lindgard, Shaw, Young, Lindelof, Mata and Matic was/is on over 100k/week that not sustainable.

Bruno is now reportedly on 70k/week, which is much more sensible and it seems Woody has actually learned a thing or two

Step 1 on the rebuild always had to be a clearout. When you consider the sheer number of players that needed moving on it was always going to be a difficult process with moving them on and replacing them. You say Ole, gutted the squad, which is right to some extent, but which of these players do you really think would have made a meaningful difference on the pitch?

In any case, this process of replacing players could be done in two ways. Fast and painful (like we have been doing) or gradual or slow where we did it 2-3 players at a time maybe. Cons of doing it fast is of course that it leaves you thin and vulnerable to injuries. The other method makes you less vulnerable but it would also mean the clear out/rebuild would drag on for years and years

If you think that dismantling a squad without buying players to replace them is a good idea then there's really nothing to add from my part. All I say is that such strategy forces managers to run the players to the ground, opening the gates wide to potential career threatening injuries. I wonder if the likes of you would still debate how great the club was in getting rid of Lukaku if lets say Greenwood had to pick a career threatening injury because we couldn't afford resting him. There's already question marks whether Rashy's injuries will cut his career short at long term but hey, thank god we spared some pennies on the salary bill by sending Sanchez on loan to Inter.

A club should be able to handle a high staff turnover. Juventus does it all the time. For example this season they bought 9 players in (De Ligt, Danilo, Kulusevski, Romero, Pellegrini, Demiral, Rabiot, Ramsay and Buffon) and got rid of 10 players. That's in just 2 windows (summer and january). Sir Alex (United way etc) brought 12 players in between 1988-1990. That's how efficient clubs operate.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

If you think that dismantling a squad without buying players to replace them is a good idea then there's really nothing to add from my part. All I say is that such strategy forces managers to run the players to the ground.

Aye, I'll bang on to my death bed about how stupid and naive last Summer was. Claiming "We needed to gut the squad for many reasons, and it was a ballsy move to do so much of it so quickly" I just can't agree with, it was foolish, naive and the only thing that could save it costing us 4th is a cracking January window to fix the mess, partially with band-aids (Ighalo). It has absolutely lead to Rashford, Pogba & McTom playing when they shouldn't.

So I hope Ole goes on and secures 4th and proves to be a very good manager, but much on the pitch this season worries me and our Summer window isn't a get out of jail free card, it was idiotic in my own personal opinion. But, now he has another real chance after learning a lesson or two this window so here's hoping.

 

[AneRu]

Sums up the Ole lovers no disrespect. Sell players you dislike (great manager), bench players you dislike (great manager).
Shout towards his own players that you dislike (great manager). Team getting poor results and showing almost no signs of improving( doesn't matter since he needs more time to bring players in and the squad is not good enough and he got a long term vision for the club)
Gets Ighalo in with less than 1 hour to go on loan ( great manager with such a great plan for getting a striker in and improving the squad)

I am happy we finally got something, but the overall plan for transfers has been shockingly bad under him. Was bad before too, but got even worse compared to the time under Mourinho.

I think this is a bit harsh on Ole because the thing with transfers is that it depends on the parties agreeing so at the end of the day it's more about who the club can bring than it is about who the manager actually wants. We know Ole wanted Haaland but we couldn't agree to release clause that would have basically turned us into a stepping stone the moment he fulfilled his massive potential.

That's not what defines good manager though. Tactics and results are.

Agree with this, a lot of things arent under Ole's control but this is exclusively his. Now that we have added a couple of players in attack we will see after the break whether he can finally unlock deep defenses.

 

[devilish]

Aye, I'll bang on to my death bed about how stupid and naive last Summer was. Claiming "We needed to gut the squad for many reasons, and it was a ballsy move to do so much of it so quickly" I just can't agree with, it was foolish, naive and the only thing that could save it costing us 4th is a cracking January window to fix the mess, partially with band-aids (Ighalo). It has absolutely lead to Rashford, Pogba & McTom playing when they shouldn't.

So I hope Ole goes on and secures 4th and proves to be a very good manager, but much on the pitch this season worries me and our Summer window isn't a get out of jail free card, it was idiotic in my own personal opinion. But, now he has another real chance after learning a lesson or two this window so here's hoping.

I am in the anti Ole out camp. That's down to his lack of tactics, his naive attitude in the transfer market and his overconfidence on the kids, a big chunk of whom had failed to reach the ridiculously high expectations set (Chong, Garner, Gomes, Tuanzebe ). However let's be clear here to anybody. Its something I would LOVE to be proven wrong about.

A- We desperately need this managerial thing sorted. We're better off with Ole being the right man rather then having to chase shadows again.
B- Ole is one of our own. That means that if he succeeds he won't be fecking off to Real or Barca in few years time.

I also don't blame him on things he has little control upon like for example having to work with an idiot as CEO. I mean why the hell, we always spend the transfer deadline chasing shadows? FFS get the deals done and dusted 2-3 days before so that the manager can plan adequately.

Anyway this post clearly shows that civilised discussions between the Ole-in camp and the Ole-out camp can be done. Sure people flying off the handle sometimes. I surely do. But that can be forgiven considering we're ultimately family (ie Man United family) who only want the good for our team.

 

[Bobcat]

If you think that dismantling a squad without buying players to replace them is a good idea then there's really nothing to add from my part. All I say is that such strategy forces managers to run the players to the ground, opening the gates wide to potential career threatening injuries. I wonder if the likes of you would still debate how great the club was in getting rid of Lukaku if lets say Greenwood had to pick a career threatening injury because we couldn't afford resting him. There's already question marks whether Rashy's injuries will cut his career short at long term but hey, thank god we spared some pennies on the salary bill by sending Sanchez on loan to Inter.

A club should be able to handle a high staff turnover. Juventus does it all the time. For example this season they bought 9 players in (De Ligt, Danilo, Kulusevski, Romero, Pellegrini, Demiral, Rabiot, Ramsay and Buffon) and got rid of 10 players. That's in just 2 windows (summer and january). Sir Alex (United way etc) brought 12 players in between 1988-1990. That's how efficient clubs operate.

Well, getting players in is on the board. Sure, big clubs should be able to handle a high staff turnover, but 10 players in is the exception rather than the rule and unless you sit on a gigantic pile of money, chances are that if you buy 10 players over 2 windows, most of those are going to be cheap squad options rather than first XI players. Right now we need both

The clear out had to happen one way or the other. Or do you think we should have just kept all of this deadwood in case someone picks up an injury? Come on, that absurd. Everyone saw the squad was paper thin going in to this season, but that was a risk we had to take.

Either that or this clear out/rebuild taking several more years

 

[devilish]

Well, getting players in is on the board. Sure, big clubs should be able to handle a high staff turnover, but 10 players in is the exception rather than the rule and unless you sit on a gigantic pile of money, chances are that if you buy 10 players over 2 windows, most of those are going to be cheap squad options rather than first XI players. Right now we need both

The clear out had to happen one way or the other. Or do you think we should have just kept all of this deadwood in case someone picks up an injury? Come on, that absurd. Everyone saw the squad was paper thin going in to this season, but that was a risk we had to take.

Either that or this clear out/rebuild taking several more years

I already said what needed to be done ie we should have hired people who can sustain a high staff turnover. This madness of taking us ages to sell or buy players and our inability to conclude multiple deals at once need to go. Others are able to do so, therefore why can't we?

Its all about being efficient and effective in the transfer market ie by having a plan, identifying players ahead of others and signing them quickly before others notice. Timing is everything. Ole and vidic were days of joining spurs and fiorentina respectively. Fiorentina even tried to sue us for scooping their target so late. Those players changed our history

Juventus are able to do that thanks to their experienced board and DOF. We do not cause the man in charge knows nothing about football and has too much on his plate (ie sponsors etc)

Having a high turnover is good. It keeps players on their toes, it raises standards, it keeps egos and salaries in check and it also allows the club to get rid of players before they are labelled as deadwood.

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

Rashford: 20 PL-goals in 92 matches in his united carrier before Solskjær. 21 PL-goals in 41 matches, in the one year Solskjærs been in charge.
Martial: On route to break his season record (11 PL-goals) this season.
Fred: From horrible last year to quality
McTominay: Massive steps in the right direction this season
Greenwood: 10 goals this season, just turned 18.

I really think the players are moving in the right direction under the guidance of Ole, and with the creativity of Bruno added, and hopefully less injuries to key players in the future, it will be very interesting to see what this team can achieve. If we could just ad some width to the squad this summer, I think we'll be ready for a very entertaining 20/21.

This rebuild is going in the right direction, although results may suggest otherwise (because of very thin squad, and essential players injured).

 

[Mainoldo]

Rashford: 20 PL-goals in 92 matches in his united carrier before Solskjær. 21 PL-goals in 41 matches, in the one year Solskjærs been in charge.
Martial: On route to break his season record (11 PL-goals) this season.
Fred: From horrible last year to quality
McTominay: Massive steps in the right direction this season
Greenwood: 10 goals this season, just turned 18.

I really think the players are moving in the right direction under the guidance of Ole, and with the creativity of Bruno added, and hopefully less injuries to key players in the future, it will be very interesting to see what this team can achieve. If we could just ad some width to the squad this summer, I think we'll be ready for a very entertaining 20/21.

This rebuild is going in the right direction, although results may suggest otherwise (because of very thin squad, and essential players injured).

I’m confused... so are you saying you didn’t expect Rashford to play consistently and deliver this numbers? Don’t give me Mourinho either as Rashford was never a first team player he played 60 minutes maximum if he was lucky.

He was relied on when Zlatan got injured and he delivered then too.

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

I’m confused... so are you saying you didn’t expect Rashford to play consistently and deliver this numbers?

I don't know what confuses you? I'm saying Rashford has had a positive development since Ole arrived. 20 goals in 5217 PL-minutes prior to Ole, 21 in 3376 minutes since Ole became manager. That is a massive improvement. (260 min pr goal vs 160 min per goal)

 

[Mainoldo]

I don't know what confuses you? I'm saying Rashford has had a positive development since Ole arrived. 20 goals in 5217 PL-minutes prior to Ole, 21 in 3376 minutes since Ole became manager. That is a massive improvement. (260 min pr goal vs 160 min per goal)

Forget the stats you are a Manchester United fan like me. We see every game or a lot. Has he improved or has he just been given the opportunity to express himself every week?

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

Has he improved or has he just been given the opportunity to express himself every week?

He has improved. A lot.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

That's not what defines good manager though. Tactics and results are.

Plus HE was the one who chose to start him.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I have no idea what you're rambling about with Pep, but every manager has to deal with injuries and ensure their squad is equipped to deal with them.

I'm referring to his post-match comments. He mentioned specifically that fielding a number of young/inexperienced players regularly (as we have done) will lead to inconsistent performances, as in: this is par for the course.

And he has been hampered by injuries himself this season - part of the reason why Liverpool are so far ahead.

 

[devilish]

I don't know what confuses you? I'm saying Rashford has had a positive development since Ole arrived. 20 goals in 5217 PL-minutes prior to Ole, 21 in 3376 minutes since Ole became manager. That is a massive improvement. (260 min pr goal vs 160 min per goal)

Rashford is young. It is difficult to say if his improvement is down to ole or it is down to him growing older and more experienced

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Not losing the dressing room filled with Maguire, Shaw, Lingard, Perreira, Pobga is nothing to brag.

No, but that's hardly the point. Replacing a manager mid-season won't necessarily give you a "new manager boost" if the players (as a group) like the (current) manager.

 

[Zen86]

Rashford is young. It is difficult to say if his improvement is down to ole or it is down to him growing older and more experienced

Give the guy some credit for gods sake.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Give the guy some credit for gods sake.

Rashford himself speaks highly of Ole, for what it's worth. As in - does give Ole credit for how he's developed the last year.

But, sure - it could all be coincidence.

The problem with this place at the moment is that everything gets polarized in the extreme. Ole is utterly clueless (not just short of being Pep or Klopp), so he can't possibly do anything right, in any department.

 

[Gehrman]

Rashford himself speaks highly of Ole, for what it's worth. As in - does give Ole credit for how he's developed the last year.

But, sure - it could all be coincidence.

The problem with this place at the moment is that everything gets polarized in the extreme. Ole is utterly clueless (not just short of being Pep or Klopp), so he can't possibly do anything right, in any department.

I agree, I am mostly Ole out, but give credit where credit is due. I'm sure Ole could do better with a better squad, but I also believe there are better managers out there who could do a much better job.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm sure Ole could do better with a better squad, but I also believe there are better managers out there who could do a much better job.

Completely agree.

He has shown nothing to indicate that he's one to stick with indefinitely. He's got plenty of work to do before I'll be convinced of anything.

But there are multiple players in our present squad who have done as well as can be expected - and better - under him.

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

I agree, I am mostly Ole out, but give credit where credit is due. I'm sure Ole could do better with a better squad, but I also believe there are better managers out there who could do a much better job.

That is a argument I fully respect. Those guys who show up with black paint, whenever there are some white spots around, are clearly agenda-driven. It is possible to think Ole isn't doing a good enough job, and at the same time admit that there are some positives along the way. I, who am a committed Ole in, have no problem admitting he has done mistakes, and will do more mistakes in the future, but still think he could be the right man.

This black and white thinking, without any nuances at all is just plain stupid.

 

[devilish]

Give the guy some credit for gods sake.

Please tell me if what I said is wrong and how this can be interpreted as pro or anti ole.

 

[InspiRED]

That is a argument I fully respect. Those guys who show up with black paint, whenever there are some white spots around, are clearly agenda-driven. It is possible to think Ole isn't doing a good enough job, and at the same time admit that there are some positives along the way. I, who am a committed Ole in, have no problem admitting he has done mistakes, and will do more mistakes in the future, but still think he could be the right man.

This black and white thinking, without any nuances at all is just plain stupid.

amen to that.

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

Rashford is young. It is difficult to say if his improvement is down to ole or it is down to him growing older and more experienced

You could say that. The numbers don't suggest he was developing in the right direction as he got older, though.
15/16 (his first season): 172 min per pl-goal
16/17: 340 min per pl-goal
17/18: 258 min per pl-goal
18/19 (until Ole took charge): 283 min per pl-goal
19/20: 134 min per pl-goal

 

[devilish]

You could say that. The numbers don't suggest he was developing in the right direction as he got older, though.
15/16 (his first season): 172 min per pl-goal
16/17: 340 min per pl-goal
17/18: 258 min per pl-goal
18/19 (until Ole took charge): 283 min per pl-goal
19/20: 134 min per pl-goal

Rashy was utilised on the flank by Mou, who preferred Lukaku to him. Then ole kicked Lukaku out from first team and moved him in a central role. That increased his goal ratio. Only recently he is moving him back on the flank were I think he belongs to

Ole deserves merit in terms of improving our dressing room. Mou, LvG and Moyes created a toxic environment there

 

[elánius]

You could say that. The numbers don't suggest he was developing in the right direction as he got older, though.
15/16 (his first season): 172 min per pl-goal
16/17: 340 min per pl-goal
17/18: 258 min per pl-goal
18/19 (until Ole took charge): 283 min per pl-goal
19/20: 134 min per pl-goal

You forget to say that he is our penalty taker under Solksjaer, without penalties he has more than 200 minutes per goal this season and for the first time he played most of it as a central forward. So he is average striker at best, his position is in 4/3/3 on the left (unfortunatly same as Martials).

 

[devilish]

Discussing in here

Extremist Pro ole camp says an outrageously biased argument in favour of Ole

Poster A disagrees

Extremist Pro ole camp: you hate the guy ahole

Extremist Anti ole camp says an outrageously biased argument against ole

Poster A disagrees

Extremist Anti ole camp: you blinkered ahole

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

for the first time he played most of it as a central forward.

Say what? He has played 19 left wing, and 10 center forward this season.
19/20: 19 LW / 10 CF
17/18: 20 LW/ 18 CF
16/17: 24 LW/ 22 CF
15/16: 2 second forward/ 28 CF
(numbers from transfermarkt)

 

[e.cantona]

Yeah. Like this is basically a good example of the kind of sh*t that you increasingly see here.

Anyone who doesn't rate Ole as a manager has some kind of inherent character failure. Sheesh give it a fecking rest guys! I get why a lot of you are pro-Ole, I'm not gonna start painting you as Auschwitz concentration camp guards just because I don't agree.

I should take better care when posting something in frustration, and expect it be given the worst possible interpretation. May be a child reading it. Is very possible I suppose. This is the internet, different people with different age, gender, sexuality, prerequisites, etc. Most of them believing they are in the upper end of the bell curve, me included. This is the problem in my opinion. On here and elsewhere. You get the lower end of the bell curve so sure of themselves being correct and having the higher ground, they’ll do anything to prove how right they are. Of course, this being the internet, they are often limited to shouting Nazi, etc. I will think twice next time. Thank you.

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Lets get this back to the top of redcafe

 

[NJM78]

Sack...Absolutely 100% yes!

 

[waza7111]

Ole out at the end of the season no matter what happens between now and then.

 

[Andycoleno9]

After being kicked out from cup and 3 games without win in PL support in poll is higher?! Wtf is going on here?

 

[edgecutter]

We have a winter break and we should be seriously considering moving him on. We still have a shout at Europa and 4th, but playing like this we won't have a hope.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Incredible that one win against League One bottom-dwellers, another cup win that saw us get knocked out, and one big signing were all it took to get 10% of people to switch their votes away from 'sack'.

 

[Kopral Jono]

After being kicked out from cup and 3 games without win in PL support in poll is higher?! Wtf is going on here?

Ah, the old blind loyalty some people have toward a cult leader. Never fails to amaze me.