Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I was almost tempted to go back and look at some data to try to build a response, but then I read pages 5, 9 & 11 of his performance thread and I wondered why I'm bothering. Go and have a look.

I suggest you go have a look at Lingard or Andreas threads then, and then explain to me why they were both given more games, runs of games to prove how fecking wank they were week in week out whilst we won 2 from 9 in the league. Whereas Matic was played in sporadic cup games alongside Chong, Jones, Rojo.

I mean come on Bilbo, you know Ole trusted in Andreas and Lingard at the start of the season and froze Matic out, why does everything have to be a debate? The awful form of Andreas and Lingard who were picked ahead of him is absolute proof of this.

 

[crossy1686]

He literally just told you that it wasn't him who said that. It was the other bloke

Haha busy day, misread the quote. Whoops!

 

[ReddBalls]

Has there ever been a more misinformed post on redcafe? I don't think so @ReddBalls.

Fred didn't even start a PL game until after Matic got injured in October. Before then he was often on the bench with Matic whilst the management preferred to play Lingard or Andreas. When Matic came back from injury, he got himself a start in the busy festive period and started instantly showing how daft we were alienating him at the start of the season during that shit run of just 2 wins from 9 games.

"Absurd" is coming here and making a post like this without even fact checking it.

McTominay and Pogba, then. Lingard and Pereira playes a different position than Matic. Claiming he lost his place to them is absurd, and tbf fair shows far less knowledge of the club and players than not remembering exactly which game Fred started to play regularly.

Whatever Ole did to Matic, it worked. He's closer to the Chelsea version of himself than he's ever been at United.

Why are you so hellbent on discrediting the manager that you invent sticks to beat him with?

 

[Sassy Colin]

Changed my vote, but I reserve the right to change it again in the future.

 

[Bilbo]

I suggest you go have a look at Lingard or Andreas threads then, and then explain to me why they were both given more games, runs of games to prove how fecking wank they were week in week out whilst we won 2 from 9 in the league. Whereas Matic was played in sporadic cup games alongside Chong, Jones, Rojo.

I mean come on Bilbo, you know Ole trusted in Andreas and Lingard at the start of the season and froze Matic out, why does everything have to be a debate? The awful form of Andreas and Lingard who were picked ahead of him is absolute proof of this.

You're comparing apples with oranges again. Lingard has absolutely zero relevance in this, and Andreas only a passing relevance because Ole tried him a couple of times in a similar (but not that similar) role because of very limited options.

Nobody will deny how poor those two players have been this season. It's why people were asking for patience. We felt quite strongly that better player = better performances, yet the whingers just put it down to coaching. Now we've seen Bruno a few times it's quite clear that many areas of the team were working just fine, we just needed a player to link midfield and attack.

 

[Bilbo]

McTominay and Pogba, then. Lingard and Pereira playes a different position than Matic. Claiming he lost his place to them is absurd, and tbf fair shows far less knowledge of the club and players than not remembering exactly which game Fred started to play regularly.

Whatever Ole did to Matic, it worked. He's closer to the Chelsea version of himself than he's ever been at United.

Why are you so hellbent on discrediting the manager that you invent sticks to beat him with?

Agree that it is an absurd line of argument

 

[lysglimt]

That's fair enough. I simply don't want to lose the opportunity to get a better manager if they are around. Klopp or Pep are not going to come. SAF wanted Ancelotti but he told SAF he had already committed to Real when we were looking for one those days.
Rose and Nagelsmann are not going to be at Dortmund and Leipzig next year respectively.

Some people seem to think a good manager is only around once in a while. Anytime in the next 5 years several good managers will be available. And in 3-4-5 years time there will be 2-3 new managers that have proven themselves.

 

[ReddBalls]

Agree that it is an absurd line of argument

Clutching at straws it seems, and digging into what Ole has been rightfully praised for even when things were bad. First he claims Ole is not responsible for the getting the right players on transfers and integrate them, now he claims he was mean to Matic which is supposed to prove he is not a good man-manager.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

McTominay and Pogba, then. Lingard and Pereira playes a different position than Matic. Claiming he lost his place to them is absurd, and tbf fair shows far less knowledge of the club and players than not remembering exactly which game Fred started to play regularly.

Agree that it is an absurd line of argument

Are you two shitting me?

Ok, scenario for you both. This weekend only Pogba, Fred, Matic & Lingard are available. Who plays?

What an absolutely absurd argument.

 

[He'sRaldo]

McTominay and Pogba, then. Lingard and Pereira playes a different position than Matic. Claiming he lost his place to them is absurd, and tbf fair shows far less knowledge of the club and players than not remembering exactly which game Fred started to play regularly.

Whatever Ole did to Matic, it worked. He's closer to the Chelsea version of himself than he's ever been at United.

Why are you so hellbent on discrediting the manager that you invent sticks to beat him with?

You're comparing apples with oranges again. Lingard has absolutely zero relevance in this, and Andreas only a passing relevance because Ole tried him a couple of times in a similar (but not that similar) role because of very limited options.

Nobody will deny how poor those two players have been this season. It's why people were asking for patience. We felt quite strongly that better player = better performances, yet the whingers just put it down to coaching. Now we've seen Bruno a few times it's quite clear that many areas of the team were working just fine, we just needed a player to link midfield and attack.

He should have changed formation to get rid of Lingard and Andreas, and accommodate Matic. This was in fact a gripe quite a few, including myself, had with him. If he hadn't snagged Bruno we'd still have been suffering those two until now.

It makes no sense to shoehorn your worst players into key areas of a formation, resulting in a net negative to the team.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Clutching at straws it seems, and digging into what Ole has been rightfully praised for even when things were bad. First he claims Ole is not responsible for the getting the right players on transfers and integrate them, now he claims he was mean to Matic which is supposed to prove he is not a good man-manager.

Not mean to Matic, rosey eyed naive about youth and academy players, which he clearly was. Now answer the question above man.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Are you two shitting me?

Ok, scenario for you both. This weekend only Pogba, Fred, Matic & Lingard are available. Who plays?

What an absolutely absurd argument.

Exactly.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He should have changed formation to get rid of Lingard and Andreas, and accommodate Matic. This was in fact a gripe quite a few, including myself, had with him. If he hadn't snagged Bruno we'd still have been suffering those two until now.

It makes no sense to shoehorn your worst players into key areas of a formation, resulting in a net negative to the team.

I wanted one of these two to grasp that.

“But Matic doesn’t play in Lingard’s position” is a line of argument I wouldn’t expect Derek Zoolander to come out with.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Is he better than Rose or Nagelsmann?

In terms of potential, he's not. He's been a manager longer than these two and both Nagelsmann and Rose's propositions look more enticing than his. Keep in mind though that they haven't been tested outside their safety zones (i'm counting Austria as such for the Germans). Solskjaer tried and failed at first, true enough, but this doesn't take away the fact that both Rose and Nagelsmann haven't faced the difficulties of getting their message through in a different culture (not just the league but also the country & its people) and they are currently thriving in an environment (Bundesliga) that encourages clubs to put their faith and trust into upcoming & innovative managers and young players. And everybody expects that one team will win the league, so "success" is measured in other things too for which the manager of Manchester United (not only Solskjaer) will get very little credit for.

Before going any further and just to put this idiocy to bed (saw some of the replies you got), Rose has won 2 league titles and a cup in Austria with RB Salzburg. That's as many trophies as Solskjaer has won in Norway.

My main gripe with Solskjaer is his ability to instil tactics that will help United become a force again in England. I'm still not sure whether he can achieve this or not. Another thing is that, in the beginning, he had a naive idealism in his approach. It cost us lots of points and it got exacerbated when the injuries plagued us. But we have seen signs of improvement in both areas. For instance, Ighalo is a good stop-gap solution which allows us not to change positions to almost everybody else when Martial isn't available. The reintroduction of Matic has offered us variety in the build-up phase which often goes unnoticed but it has helped us to move the ball forward with more ease. These are two options we have now and Solskjaer didn't believe in them at the start of the season.

But... one thing that many Ole-in people get right is that United is a difficult club to manage, a very particular club. Inside knowledge can prove to be vital. Maybe not in the grand scheme of things (winning the title) but certainly in the steps that have to be taken toward the top when the club has hit rock bottom. We can't brush this away. Should we close our eyes to everything that doesn't work well? My stance is that we shouldn't and, as far as i'm concerned, that's the whole point of the debate. How much inconsistency in results and how many disjointed performances should we endure before we call it a day. And it will be arrogant, naive and dishonest, now that we seem to be "on the turn" (of that infamous corner), to suggest that there wasn't a time when Solskjaer wasn't under tremendous pressure to deliver results. If not to save his job, to prevent our whole season from going down the drain. And it's the "other things" that kept him afloat: The targeted signings which allowed him to be competitive in the big games and the family atmosphere that kept the spirits high and the dressing room together. Is it enough? No, but it's a start.

Putting Nagelsmann or Rose in charge of a slowly healing giant like United while they're still developing themselves in their own protective environments could prove disastrous for both us and them. I doubt they would even accept the job at this stage in their careers. They would look for something relatively safer before they embark on such an adventure. If things continue to be on an upward trajectory under Solskjaer, we should let him finish the rebuild and then look to upgrade the manager (if necessary). If it's just another false dawn and it all goes downhill, i would prefer someone like Poch (PL proven, already built a good side by improving players and looking into the squad for solutions) to finish the rebuild.

 

[oggy boy]

Beside recently good results and a good chance to finish top 4 or 5, I am reluctant to give him another season.

Number of points and trophies he has won should be observed also. It seems in that sense that this season won't be better than previous ones.

Previous coaches have been sacked for the same or worse results in that manner.

 

[Bilbo]

He should have changed formation to get rid of Lingard and Andreas, and accommodate Matic. This was in fact a gripe quite a few, including myself, had with him. If he hadn't snagged Bruno we'd still have been suffering those two until now.

It makes no sense to shoehorn your worst players into key areas of a formation, resulting in a net negative to the team.

It makes sense when Matic was playing as poorly as the other two were. We lacked creativity so he tried to offset that with runners, with the added benefit that it kept us closer to a system that suited the team.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It makes sense when Matic was playing as poorly as the other two were. We lacked creativity so he tried to offset that with runners, with the added benefit that it kept us closer to a system that suited the team.

Matic wasn’t playing though was he? 2 PL games.

We’re just going around in circles. We won 2 in 9, Matic started one of those wins.

Matic. McTom
——Pogba

Was/is more balanced and should have been used, we would have won more a lot more than 2 games. Keep burying your head in the sand though.

Andreas and Lingard were clearly fancied to do a job this season at 10.

Has Ole made ANY mistakes at all this season according to you two? I mean, if you can’t even admit this glaring one then I’m guessing he’s been 100% bang on?

 

[Bilbo]

Are you two shitting me?

Ok, scenario for you both. This weekend only Pogba, Fred, Matic & Lingard are available. Who plays?

What an absolutely absurd argument.

Matic today would be in my team. Matic before January wouldnt, but then that's the whole point of this

 

[Bilbo]

Keep burying your head in the sand though.

Define irony

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Matic today would be in my team. Matic before January wouldnt, but then that's the whole point of this

And Jesse before Jan would?

I rather enjoy the idea that Matic simply underwent a metamorphosis in December.

 

[Bilbo]

I wanted one of these two to grasp that.

“But Matic doesn’t play in Lingard’s position” is a line of argument I wouldn’t expect Derek Zoolander to come out with.

No disrespect, but having one or two people agree with you doesnt mean that you've nailed it. Am I supposed to grasp something because someone agreed with you?

Anyway I'm off out to get pissed. Enjoy

 

[He'sRaldo]

And Jesse before Jan would?

I rather enjoy the idea that Matic simply underwent a metamorphosis in December.

The interesting thing is, the initial plan and what actually happened are quite different IMO. Both Fred and Matic, key parts of our current midfield, weren't introduced till injuries forced us to use them extensively. That's where I think Ole has been very lucky.

I think the initial plan was Pogba, Scott, Lingard midfield, and Fred and Matic on the bench. Funny enough things ended up working out for us with Pogba's (and Jesse's) injury. Fred and Matic stepped up and made themselves very hard to drop.

 

[Zen86]

Says it all that when we’re playing well and results are coming in, here we are in the Ole thread squabbling about his past treatment of Matic. Let’s ignore that Ole has got him playing the best football since he signed for United.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Says it all that when we’re playing well and results are coming in, here we are in the Ole thread squabbling about his past treatment of Matic. Let’s ignore that Ole has got him playing the best football since he signed for United.

I was actually “squabbling” about playing shit like Lingard and Andreas ahead if him. Not his treatment.

In fact my original point here was PRAISING Ole for quickly learning his lessons.

But do carry on.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Says it all that when we’re playing well and results are coming in, here we are in the Ole thread squabbling about his past treatment of Matic. Let’s ignore that Ole has got him playing the best football since he signed for United.

We need to keep a clear perspective, it's very easy to get swept up in good feelings especially with someone as likeable as Ole at the helm. Ole has indeed done good things, but not all of it was part of a plan.

For me anyway, those are important things to remember when assessing the season as a whole.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The interesting thing is, the initial plan and what actually happened are quite different IMO. Both Fred and Matic, key parts of our current midfield, weren't introduced till injuries forced us to use them extensively. That's where I think Ole has been very lucky.

I think the initial plan was Pogba, Scott, Lingard midfield, and Fred and Matic on the bench. Funny enough things ended up working out for us with Pogba's (and Jesse's) injury. Fred and Matic stepped up and made themselves very hard to drop.

Shhhhhhhh! We can’t even praise Ole for learning from clear mistakes here, because Ole has never made one.

One match we had both Fred & Matic on the bench by the way, with Jesse and Andreas starting!!

Strange that criticism seems to anger so many. I’m pleased as punch that Ole isn’t a stubborn pig headed feck like Jose and that he’ll learn and mould to the job/situation. And since Jan, the results have been fantastic so long may it continue. If other posters find solace in pretending everything that has happened this season was all part of a masterplan, so be it.

I’m off pub too, just not with Bilbs, I’d end up throttling him

 

[Zen86]

I was actually “squabbling” about playing shit like Lingard and Andreas ahead if him. Not his treatment.

In fact my original point here was PRAISING Ole for quickly learning his lessons.

But do carry on.

They’re hardly like-for-like players now are they? In any case, Matic had been gash up until now, and some of his comments made me think he had an attitude problem to be honest.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

the poll tipped the scales.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

They’re hardly like-for-like players now are they?

We’ve done this already.
If you had Lingard, Pogba, Matic, McTom available this weekend, which 3 would you play?

Ole chose Lingard or Andreas and we won 2 from 9, Matic actually played in one of the 2 wins. It was clear why he persevered, because the plan from pre-season was McTom and Pogba with Jesse or Andreas in AM. He trusts the academy lads... but thankfully even Ole has his limit.

And if Matic was “gash” what was Lingard? Is there even a word for it?

Anyway, this started off with me praising that side of Ole’s management. I’ll leave it again saying I’m delighted with have a none stubborn flexible manager in charge.

 

[John Blund]

Beside recently good results and a good chance to finish top 4 or 5, I am reluctant to give him another season.

Number of points and trophies he has won should be observed also. It seems in that sense that this season won't be better than previous ones.

Previous coaches have been sacked for the same or worse results in that manner.

Last 10 games in the league - we won 5, 2 draws and lost 3. (5W, 2D, 3L - 16p)
First 10 games this season - (3W,4D,3L - 13p)

I don't believe that solely looking at results and points and number of trophies won for this season is not the way to go forward. At the start of the season, we played some half decent football, but got unlucky with some results. Games we should have won with a half decent striker or anyone who could hit a penalty. Pogba missed the pen against Wolves. Rash missed the next round, home against CP. Then we had a woeful game against West Ham, before we should have beaten Arsenal at home. Then we set a new low away against Newcastle.

That's the problem of this season the inconsistency. We've had some half decent performances, followed by the most abysmal we've seen in decades.

I'm still in the Ole in- wagon, as I've been all season. I still think we've been good on the transfer marked - Bruno in might have been obvious, but we've missed on a few "big signings" in the recent years as well. And it might be too soon to say Ighalo is a success, but he's already performed much better than I'd expected from him.

 

[RUCK4444]

I agree with your points in general, but regarding the part I've made bold.

It's amazing to beat the big teams, it really is. I agree. But there are far less big games than small games in the season. What's the point of taking 6pts off each of the top 4, if we go 50/50 for the rest of the season against the rest of the league, for example?

I would rewrite your bolded part to being "will a new manager NOT ONLY rise to the occasion of the big games but prove they can beat the rest of the teams in the league consistently"?

THAT is what wins titles. Only winning the big games wins you bragging rights if those wins exist in a vacuum. That's pretty small-time, to be honest.

Ideally, Ole will be the man to do both.

Yes of course, that goes without saying.
I should have elaborated to explain that.

IMO it’s harder to win the harder games, that’s a given.

So I would prefer a manager that has proven he can motivate a team to beat the big guns and also has enough about him find a way. Ole has proved that now.

There will be more managers that can get decent results against the lesser sides but but struggle against the top half and the level of teams in the bottom half is improving all the time.

It’s easier to work backwards and beat the lesser sides rather than the other way around. Better quality players like Bruno will help us break down those teams.

 

[Dve]

Of course I can because that's the standard by which all previous managers have been measured and the same needs to be applied here. Not that your suggestion will happen, it never will under Ole. While we will have good performances a Pep side we will never be and I don't expect Ole will ever have us playing consistently fantastic football.

So, let´s say we lose half of the remaining matches, get knocked out of the EL by LASK, lose to Norwich - but still manage to get into top 4 (or 5). Then he should keep his job, right?

 

[Withnail]

And Jesse before Jan would?

I rather enjoy the idea that Matic simply underwent a metamorphosis in December.

Ah come on did you see him play in pre-season? He had a shocker and deservedly wasn't anywhere near it.

EDIT: I see the conversation is over anyway. Don't mind me

 

[roonster09]

Has there ever been a more misinformed post on redcafe? I don't think so @ReddBalls.

Fred didn't even start a PL game until after Matic got injured in October. Before then he was often on the bench with Matic whilst the management preferred to play Lingard or Andreas. When Matic came back from injury, he got himself a start in the busy festive period and started instantly showing how daft we were alienating him at the start of the season during that shit run of just 2 wins from 9 games.

"Absurd" is coming here and making a post like this without even fact checking it.

 

[Zen86]

We’ve done this already.
If you had Lingard, Pogba, Matic, McTom available this weekend, which 3 would you play?

Ole chose Lingard or Andreas and we won 2 from 9, Matic actually played in one of the 2 wins. It was clear why he persevered, because the plan from pre-season was McTom and Pogba with Jesse or Andreas in AM. He trusts the academy lads... but thankfully even Ole has his limit.

And if Matic was “gash” what was Lingard? Is there even a word for it?

Anyway, this started off with me praising that side of Ole’s management. I’ll leave it again saying I’m delighted with have a none stubborn flexible manager in charge.

Lingard was obviously gash as well, but presumably he was going for mobility. Whatever he did, it worked, because Matic is a much better player now than he was before.

 

[oggy boy]

Last 10 games in the league - we won 5, 2 draws and lost 3. (5W, 2D, 3L - 16p)
First 10 games this season - (3W,4D,3L - 13p)

I don't believe that solely looking at results and points and number of trophies won for this season is not the way to go forward. At the start of the season, we played some half decent football, but got unlucky with some results. Games we should have won with a half decent striker or anyone who could hit a penalty. Pogba missed the pen against Wolves. Rash missed the next round, home against CP. Then we had a woeful game against West Ham, before we should have beaten Arsenal at home. Then we set a new low away against Newcastle.

That's the problem of this season the inconsistency. We've had some half decent performances, followed by the most abysmal we've seen in decades.

I'm still in the Ole in- wagon, as I've been all season. I still think we've been good on the transfer marked - Bruno in might have been obvious, but we've missed on a few "big signings" in the recent years as well. And it might be too soon to say Ighalo is a success, but he's already performed much better than I'd expected from him.

Agree that United has gone forward in a way. I am just thinking this is not enough for United.

If it were Sheffield or Wolves, it would have been enough, but for United standards this is pretty low.

In this tempo, United would need at least 2-3 more years to compete at the highest level on all fronts. The question remains, can Ole move United to the next level, or this is his best.

 

[ReddBalls]

Are you two shitting me?

Ok, scenario for you both. This weekend only Pogba, Fred, Matic & Lingard are available. Who plays?

What an absolutely absurd argument.

Why is this weekend relevant? And why do you not include McTominay?

 

[Bilbo]

I’m off pub too, just not with Bilbs, I’d end up throttling him

touche. You're still one of my favourite posters on here, even though we see things differently.

 

[Dve]

Ok @Bilbo, I'll do it again then.

Andreas: 6 PL starts until October 6th. 2 W, 2D, 2L (33.33% win-rate)
Jesse: 4 PL starts until October 6th. 1 W, 2D, 1L (25% win-rate)
Matic: 2 PL starts until October 6th, then injured. 1 W, 1L (50% win-rate)

Where was Matic even getting chance to play "very poorly" as you claim? He was clearly frozen out and Ole clearly wanted to use youth/academy products and give them a chance. You simply can't look at the stats above and claim anything else unless you're spinning it. Some players have mentioned Ole is learning and I've little doubt the Matic/Andreas/Lingard treatment it part of that.
It gets worse if we go back to last season (which is a very weird way to judge "playing poorly/out of form" anyway) as Matic was brilliant during Ole great run and was injured and barely played during that dogshit finish to the season.

Eh, what? What have Pereira and Lingard got to do with Matic? Matic was not frozen out. After a pretty bad end of last season, and without shining in preseason either, he became 3rd choice as a DM after Pogba and McTominay. So, yes, in a way Matic had to step aside for the youth, or McTominay, to be precise. Fred was 4th choice. Was he frozen out as well? Matic got to play when Pogba got injured, and before Matic got injured himself, he played through United´s worst periode this season, and Matic was crap.

What´s your point really?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Lingard was obviously gash as well, but presumably he was going for mobility. Whatever he did, it worked, because Matic is a much better player now than he was before.

It you think that first half of season ”worked”, good on you.