Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Mainoldo]

It's the trendy up and coming manager who typically has done ok in a league like the bundesliga playing a brand of football that's fashionable, perhaps with attaching fullbacks and a high press - oooffff suits you sir!

Ya know, somebody who is totally unproven in the Premier league, the most intense league in the world. Somebody who has almost always won nothing.

Somebody who will take us in a totally different direction with their approach, spend hundreds of millions, somebody we can risk the first piece of legitimate progress in the last dismal 7 years on.

C'mon enlighten me. Poch? Nagelsmann?

Well on that note we’ve already got our hipster in Ole so problem solved.

Poch; He’s proven and therefore also not a hipster .

Serious note though.. why is it so important that these managers are successful as in wining titles but it doesn’t bother you that our current manager doesn’t have those credentials. I would love for us to unearth our own Poch but I don’t think we are quite Spurs level to offer an inexperienced manager such control.

 

[glazed]

This was true before Christmas but not any longer.

Have you watched us play in 2020?

Yes it's true but I was addressing the historical stats. We no longer play on the break quite so much. We are still sh1t against bus parkers, though less so. That last Europa Cup match was a good example. We won, but could easily have lost.

I don't quite know how to describe the current style of play. Like a high press told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing.

 

[He'sRaldo]

First 59 Premier League Matches In Charge of Club:

​

Stats​	Pochettino​	Ole​
Total Points​	100​	106​
Goals For​	92​	102​
Goals Against​	70​	61​
Goal Difference​	+22​	+41​

Just throwing this up here as well. I'm guessing Pochettinos awful top 6 record is because of his awesome tactical nous.

Spurs isn't comparable to Man Utd on any dimension. Best to use two more comparable clubs. Say Southampton and Cardiff.

Of course I'm being a bit disingenuous, but only because you are.

 

[Withnail]

Yes it's true but I was addressing the historical stats. We no longer play on the break quite so much. We are still sh1t against bus parkers, though less so. That last Europa Cup match was a good example. We won, but could easily have lost.

I don't quite know how to describe the current style of play. Like a high press told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury. Signifying nothing.

Ok take one game where the strikers didn't have their shooting boots on and the goal keeper had the game of good like as proof we can't cut it against park the bus teams rather than the fact that we went unbeaten in the league for 18 games.

Talk about knee jerk recency bias

 

[Halftrack]

Spurs isn't comparable to Man Utd on any dimension. Best to use two more comparable clubs. Say Southampton and Cardiff.

Of course I'm being a bit disingenuous, but only because you are.

Spurs had a squad of roughly the same quality as the one Ole inherited, so I fail to see what you're driving at here.

 

[Red For Ever]

Don’t really care if Pochettino or anyone else is better or not.
Ole has done a good enough job to be given the chance to finish What he started
A long way go,the mood has changed, including mine when I watch recent games
We seem to have a good first XI but not too much after that, hence tiredness, just like Liverpool
The first few seasons Klopp was there.
I he is going in the right direction
Not rushing in, appears to have a vision and a plan.
I don’t expect everything to be fixed overnight.
Naive of anyone that thinks we will get every possible target.
Never happened in SAF prime, not going to happen now
But I do think we will have a better team and better squad at the start of next season
And a team that tries to play in a way we will like.

We tried the instant fix with managers and players.
Didn’t work,
Looking forward to next season

 

[He'sRaldo]

Spurs had a squad of roughly the same quality as the one Ole inherited, so I fail to see what you're driving at here.

We don't shop in the same stratosphere. Spurs isn't anywhere close to our size on any level.

The only times they have worked at clubs on a similar level in the PL have been Southampton and Cardiff.

 

[cyberman]

Ole is now better manager than Poch? Seriously? Bloody hell

Honestly, if Ole continues to improve individual players then where is Poch better? Ole already has him beat in the big game battles.

 

[Mainoldo]

Don’t really care if Pochettino or anyone else is better or not.
Ole has done a good enough job to be given the chance to finish What he started
A long way go,the mood has changed, including mine when I watch recent games
We seem to have a good first XI but not too much after that, hence tiredness, just like Liverpool
The first few seasons Klopp was there.
I he is going in the right direction
Not rushing in, appears to have a vision and a plan.
I don’t expect everything to be fixed overnight.
Naive of anyone that thinks we will get every possible target.
Never happened in SAF prime, not going to happen now
But I do think we will have a better team and better squad at the start of next season
And a team that tries to play in a way we will like.

We tried the instant fix with managers and players.
Didn’t work,
Looking forward to next season

At what point did you want Mourinho sacked?

 

[AshRK]

I like Ole and he deserves time but even I don't think he is better than Poch. That's a silly argument. Maybe eventually yes Ole might achieve more as a manager than Poch but right now Poch is better.

 

[Mainoldo]

Honestly, if Ole continues to improve individual players then where is Poch better? Ole already has him beat in the big game battles.

Name the players he has improved?

 

[Relevated]

Not sure about you guys, but as decent as he's doing, I don't see him capable of really managing another team and building them.

 

[cyberman]

Name the players he has improved?

Rashford, Martial and Greenwood.
Hell even Matic. Shaw is leaps and bounds better than he has been for a very long time.

 

[Mainoldo]

Rashford, Martial and Greenwood.
Hell even Matic. Shaw is leaps and bounds better than he has been for a very long time.

So he’s improved the best players?

I’ll give you Shaw. He’s injured and I actually miss him.

 

[Withnail]

Spurs isn't comparable to Man Utd on any dimension. Best to use two more comparable clubs. Say Southampton and Cardiff.

Of course I'm being a bit disingenuous, but only because you are.

There's being a bit disingenuous and there's taking the fecking piss

 

[cyberman]

So he’s improved the best players?

I’ll give you Shaw. He’s injured and I actually miss him.

The entire frontline, yes. All without spending a penny, very Poch like!

 

[Halftrack]

We don't shop in the same stratosphere. Spurs isn't anywhere close to our size on any level.

The only times they have worked at clubs on a similar level in the PL have been Southampton and Cardiff.

Doesn't really change the fact that the Spurs squad Poch took over had a lot of quality and talent in it, and that quality wise, they're squad was as good, if not better, than the one Ole has had to work with this season.

Name the players he has improved?

Fecking hell, do you need to continuously shit up any thread about Ole with your disingenuous bullshit?

 

[RUCK4444]

Well on that note we’ve already got our hipster in Ole so problem solved.

Poch; He’s proven and therefore also not a hipster .

Serious note though.. why is it so important that these managers are successful as in wining titles but it doesn’t bother you that our current manager doesn’t have those credentials. I would love for us to unearth our own Poch but I don’t think we are quite Spurs level to offer an inexperienced manager such control.

Ole, ok noted, he hasn't won anything of note yet... However, we've invested time in him and he's (so far) successfully turning around what is essentially a feckin juggernaught of a club from absolute obscurity, under immense scrutiny. Something 'bigger name' managers have failed miserably to do. Miserably.

People forget where we were when Jose left. People also forget just how easy it would be to go back to that.

For the first time since Sir Alex left you can see the club is heading in a positive direction. Even when we got 2nd with Mourinho, the football was woeful, it never felt like it would last. Miserable, awful personality that he was, all to willing to throw players under the bus.

People also tend to totally underestimate just how far it can set us back to sack Ole and not get the next appointment spot on.

Let's say for example we hire a well known name, he want's to put his own stamp on the team, sign his own players, get rid of the previous managers favourites, he spends hundreds of millions and it doesn't work out. That's effectively a double negative because not only is it a failure in it's own right, it halts any positive improvement Ole has been making. It's a double whammy in my eyes.

Also, this nonsense that Ole cannot coach, the last time I checked our forwards are all each having the best scoring seasons of their lives! Our midfield numbers are much better, likewise with our defence.

I'm not even sure Ole will win a title for United, what I am feckin positive of though, is the fact this club is heading in the right direction for the first time in 7 years. Ole deserves to be backed until this side is complete and then let's see if he has the talent to win a league title.

 

[Mainoldo]

The entire frontline, yes. All without spending a penny, very Poch like!

I wouldn’t say Poch improved Harry Kane. He just played him. With that said. That also stands for the front line you say Ole has improved.

 

[Mainoldo]

Fecking hell, do you need to continuously shit up any thread about Ole with your disingenuous bullshit?

Read the thread title. You might just find I’m in the right place. Maybe you should find another thread.

 

[Withnail]

True but you have to take into the fact that Spurs we operating under limitations that limited their ability to compete. If you see how their rivals were spending, you cannot pretend having financial freedom to enhance your squad, does not play into it. If Pep could not spend how much he does each season, he would probably have no trophies and throw a tantrum like Jose. The reality is United have the power to compete with the big boys in terms of adding to our squad and filling gaps, so the main separating factor will be the coach. I did not feel that way with Spurs as I know Levy puts ropes around his coaches' hands. Truth be told, I was surprised they even lasted that long......

Yes there were financial constraints but by hook or by crook Poch ended up with a very good squad while Ole is getting there with the Frankensteins monster he inherited so I think my question is still valid.

 

[Halftrack]

Read the thread title. You might just find I’m in the right place. Maybe you should find another thread.

Read what I wrote, and you'll see that I was explicitly referring to the disingenuous bullshit you continue to post.

 

[Verminator]

Read what I wrote, and you'll see that I was explicitly referring to the disingenuous bullshit you continue to post.

Never attempt to play chess with a pigeon. It will just shit on the board, and knock the pieces over.

 

[RUCK4444]

Name the players he has improved?

He's improved our entire front line, Martial and Rashford just had their best goal scoring seasons, Greenwood having an outstanding breakthrough season under Ole. Getting a tune out of Pogba more often than not (IMO), adding quality in Fred for the midfield, the latter getting insane numbers since he signed.

Shaw much improved in both an attacking sense and in his linkup with Rashford (remember where Luke was under Jose, with the Portuguese clown shouting instructions to him down the touchline and publicly embarrassing him effectively.)

Matic has improved. Fred is totally transformed under Ole - particularly before the break.

Not to mention every one of his signings have been spot on and he's gotten rid of a hell of a lot of dead wood that many on here wanted gone years ago, including Mourinho's biggest sh*t stain he left us in Sanchez.

Never attempt to play chess with a pigeon. It will just shit on the board, and knock the pieces over.

Love that line

 

[Withnail]

We don't shop in the same stratosphere. Spurs isn't anywhere close to our size on any level.

The only times they have worked at clubs on a similar level in the PL have been Southampton and Cardiff.

Southampton that finished 14th the year before and newly promoted Cardiff that were relegation threatened in Jan are not in any way closer than a United team that had finished 2nd but was languishing in mid-table and a spurs team that had finished 6th.

You're making yourself look silly now that you've doubled down

 

[Withnail]

Never attempt to play chess with a pigeon. It will just shit on the board, and knock the pieces over.

 

[Halftrack]

Never attempt to play chess with a pigeon. It will just shit on the board, and knock the pieces over.

That's why I don't actually engage with his arguments.

The worst, though, are the ones who claim all Ole was never a club legend, and that all he did was 'score that one goal'. I don't remember who they were and I can't be bothered to check, but I hope they've all been banned.

 

[Mainoldo]

Ole, ok noted, he hasn't won anything of note yet... However, we've invested time in him and he's (so far) successfully turning around what is essentially a feckin juggernaught of a club from absolute obscurity, under immense scrutiny. Something 'bigger name' managers have failed miserably to do. Miserably.

People forget where we were when Jose left. People also forget just how easy it would be to go back to that.

For the first time since Sir Alex left you can see the club is heading in a positive direction. Even when we got 2nd with Mourinho, the football was woeful, it never felt like it would last. Miserable, awful personality that he was, all to willing to throw players under the bus.

People also tend to totally underestimate just how far it can set us back to sack Ole and not get the next appointment spot on.

Let's say for example we hire a well known name, he want's to put his own stamp on the team, sign his own players, get rid of the previous managers favourites, he spends hundreds of millions and it doesn't work out. That's effectively a double negative because not only is it a failure in it's own right, it halts any positive improvement Ole has been making. It's a double whammy in my eyes.

Also, this nonsense that Ole cannot coach, the last time I checked our forwards are all each having the best scoring seasons of their lives! Our midfield numbers are much better, likewise with our defence.

I'm not even sure Ole will win a title for United, what I am feckin positive of though, is the fact this club is heading in the right direction for the first time in 7 years. Ole deserves to be backed until this side is complete and then let's see if he has the talent to win a league title.

I get that but this is the problem. We just have short memories. I would argue a Europa league in season 1 and then finishing second in the league in season 2 had many feeling like we had our club back punching where it should have been. Now we all know why that failed. So I don’t know exactly makes you think this guys is going to move us from 3rd to competing with City and Liverpool when he’s not in the same managerial realm as who we are trying to reach.


Also it’s not impossible to hire managers that like the players you like. I would add some weight to the fact they are good players.

 

[Mainoldo]

That's why I don't actually engage with his arguments.

The worst, though, are the ones who claim all Ole was never a club legend, and that all he did was 'score that one goal'. I don't remember who they were and I can't be bothered to check, but I hope they've all been banned.

Go to bed grandad.

 

[Aresma7]

I get that but this is the problem. We just have short memories. I would argue a Europa league in season 1 and then finishing second in the league in season 2 had many feeling like we had our club back punching where it should have been. Now we all know why that failed. So I don’t know exactly makes you think this guys is going to move us from 3rd to competing with City and Liverpool when he’s not in the same managerial realm as who we are trying to reach.


Also it’s not impossible to hire managers that like the players you like. I would add some weight to the fact they are good players.

go back to that season and compare the goals to this season. Not that i think it will convince you, but worth a try

 

[glazed]

Never attempt to play chess with a pigeon. It will just shit on the board, and knock the pieces over.

No idea what you were arguing about but you won.

 

[Aresma7]

Well on that note we’ve already got our hipster in Ole so problem solved.

Poch; He’s proven and therefore also not a hipster .

Serious note though.. why is it so important that these managers are successful as in wining titles but it doesn’t bother you that our current manager doesn’t have those credentials. I would love for us to unearth our own Poch but I don’t think we are quite Spurs level to offer an inexperienced manager such control.

zidane?

 

[RUCK4444]

I get that but this is the problem. We just have short memories. I would argue a Europa league in season 1 and then finishing second in the league in season 2 had many feeling like we had our club back punching where it should have been. Now we all know why that failed. So I don’t know exactly makes you think this guys is going to move us from 3rd to competing with City and Liverpool when he’s not in the same managerial realm as who we are trying to reach.


Also it’s not impossible to hire managers that like the players you like. I would add some weight to the fact they are good players.

I acknowledged that 2nd spot was progress but it never felt like a United team, be honest. Lukaku up top, Fellaini coming on when things aren't going well, negative football. It was a shambles and 2nd never felt like any sort of achievement to many. Then the inevitable happened the next season.

The good spells this side under Ole has had, the unbeaten run, when this side clicks, it has something we haven't had since SAF. I want to back that until it's clearly not progressing any further, surely that's the natural progression and the mature approach, to let progression continue until it ceases to do so!?

 

[Halftrack]

Go to bed grandad.

Stop posting.

 

[anant]

How the feck is this thread still going? A manager who is in job should remain in job as long as he is bringing continuous improvement to the side and not falling short of pre season targets. This Poch talk that you guys are bringing in is rubbish because no club (except Watford) would sack a manager who's met the pre season expectations. Otherwise, think about it, any sacking would result in a chain of mangers getting sacked till a state of equilibrium is reached.

Now coming to the job that he's done. Let's break this out by 1. Performance on the field 2. Transfers 3. Improving the side 4. Team morale and squad support 5. Whether you see the potential of the project ending up in team winning trophies?

1. Perfromance on the Field- @RedSky has already posted a comparison between Ole's results vs big 6 vs Poch's record as well as compared their performances in the first 59 games.
I'll just add to that and compare our performances in the league this season vs our performances last season - as I believe this is the best way to measure this season with the previous one.

Metric	2017/18	2018/19	2019/20
Position	2nd	6th	3rd
Goals Scored	68​	65​	66​
Goals Conceded	28​	54​	36​
Pts	81​	66​	66​
xG	59.04​	68.62​	66.19​
xGA	43.54​	52.3​	38.06​
Possession	53.9% (6th)	53.3% (6th)	54.6% (5th)
Pass%	83.6% (6th)	82.3% (6th)	83.6% (4th)
Shots	13.5 (6th)	13.8 (5th)	14.3 (4th)
Shots OT	4.7 (6th)	5.9 (3rd)	5.7 (4th)
Dribbles	12.3 (4th)	8.4 (11th)	11.7 (5th)
Fouled	11.1 (2nd)	10.4 (5th)	11.2 (6th)
Shots conceded*	11.5 (7th)	13.1 (10th)	10.3 (5th)
Interceptions	12.7 (5th)	9.3 (17th)	9.9 (17th)
Fouls conceded	10.7 (9th)	11.4 (3rd)	11.1 (7th)
Through balls	2 (6th)	2 (7th)	2 (4th)
Action in opposition third	30% (3rd)	27% (12th)	30% (4th)
Unsuccessful touches*	13.4 (6th)	13.9 (16th)	14.7 (9th)
Dispossessed	10.5 (7th)	11.2 (16th)	10.4 (6th)

Pretty evident from the table above, that we've improved from last season on nearly every count. I'd go a step further and say this season was better than 2017/18 season as well in terms of how we actually played.

2. Transfers -
People may throw shit at Maguire but we've arguably been among the best defences not just in the league but even Europe. Wan Bissaka has done really well and Bruno has been among the signings of the season. As far as outgoing traansfers are concerned, I'd say every single one of them was the right decision, except for the Herrera one (which is understandable due to his wage demands)

3. Improving current players-
I don't think I even need to expand on this. Rashford, Martial are looking and playing like WC players. Williams and Greenwood have slotted in seamlessly. Shaw has been magnificent. McT and especially Fred look like great players as well.

4. Team morale and squad support
I think we can all agree that Ole has proven to be a great man manager. You just dont hear any negative stories from the players, and all the news we do hear is on positive note. Add to that, Pogba, who looked set to leave, is on verge of extending his contract

5. Whether you see the potential of the project ending up in team winning trophies
We literally have the youngest PL side and they've performed really well. We still have weaknesses and our squad lacks quality backup in certain positions, but as and when our players mature, I think we'll start seeing us winning trophies. Add to that, for the first time in years, our starting XI looks like a Man Utd side (ofcourse we can make a few upgrades here and there, but one can see us having quality players)

 

[RedSky]

The figures do not lie and your point has merit. We are, conversely, supersh1t against lesser teams and quite good against top 6. We play on the break but have no clue when teams park the bus, to overstate the case a bit.

I would say Poch played to a system of high press that most average teams couldn't live with. It was the system that won those games. Like what Klopp and Pep do, except they have better players too. But when Spurs were faced with better players the wheels came off.

That is exactly the manager we need to compete for the title. Because we already have access to good players. We potentially have what he needs and vice versa.

For me - and this is just an opinion - Ole is a cul-de-sac. We build a squad around his tactics, we will just have to rebuild it again when it becomes clear it is all out of date. De Gea is a classic example. Best goalie in the world at what he does (or he was for a while and will be again) and I'm glad to have him, but even on top form there's no way Pep or Klopp would take him even if you paid them to. He's outdated.

I would say that we don't actually have an issue dispatching park the bus teams anymore. It was certainly a huge issue for us for many years and a problem when Pogba was out injured this season, but we've dispatched these clubs on a regular basis in 2020.

I also would say that Poch had an excellent group of players for a number of years. I'm not sure they are allowed to have that excuse when looking at the top 6 form, lets remember that through Poch's reign many of the top 6 teams went through several years of haphazard form. Tottenham were the one consistent club throughout, with a settled first eleven and Manager.

Last sentence is fair enough, thats your opinion. I see signs of us being a very dangerous team in the coming years and his record against the Top 6 would suggest his football isn't outdated. Whats clear to me and has been for a good 24 months is that our squad is wafer thin of quality, there are a number of players in the squad that would struggle for regular gametime in the bottom quarter of PL teams. We've kept hold of some very average players for way, way too long. It's upto both Ole and Ed to continue getting rid and reinvesting.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Southampton that finished 14th the year before and newly promoted Cardiff that were relegation threatened in Jan are not in any way closer than a United team that had finished 2nd but was languishing in mid-table and a spurs team that had finished 6th.

You're making yourself look silly now that you've doubled down

Do you know where we finished the year before Ole took over?

 

[He'sRaldo]

There's being a bit disingenuous and there's taking the fecking piss

Aye tell that to the stats quoter saying Poch is better than Ole. I'm not even Ole out, I'm somewhere in the middle and you guys are making me make posts to defend Poch because of the ridiculousness and lack of objectivity.

Talk sense and then we won't all have to take the piss.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Doesn't really change the fact that the Spurs squad Poch took over had a lot of quality and talent in it, and that quality wise, they're squad was as good, if not better, than the one Ole has had to work with this season.

I agree, but only after the fact. The squad wasn't seen as top 4 or title contenders before Poch arrived.

 

[RedSky]

How the feck is this thread still going? A manager who is in job should remain in job as long as he is bringing continuous improvement to the side and not falling short of pre season targets. This Poch talk that you guys are bringing in is rubbish because no club (except Watford) would sack a manager who's met the pre season expectations. Otherwise, think about it, any sacking would result in a chain of mangers getting sacked till a state of equilibrium is reached.

--- snip ---

Nice table! That does highlight the progress we've made when you consider that we were struggling badly pre Bruno. Ultimately what we need to see is continued progress across the board next season and raise all of those stats up by another tier.