It would have been nice to have a plan b. But that decision is up to the board Ole and the committee. I don’t think we can whole heartedly say if Ole wanted an alternative to Sancho we wouldn’t have provided him with the one. But when on deadline day you are trying to get Dembele or Sarr on loan that tells me a decision was made to get Sancho next summer and not blow the funds on plan B? Would you not agree. As for a CB we’ve blown the budget for that already so unless there’s a new VVD going for £30m that wasn’t going to happen either.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Nowhwre near impressive compared to a SAF championship team. It is however way more impressive than a Jose 2nd and an Ole 3rd. So maybe re-access your flakey expectations because your not looking for a title winning team now are you.
I'm not saying it isn't, it's the belief that we'd get that specific version (his very best) rather than anything else. Just like we didn't get Mourinho 04-06 vintage or mid 90s LVG.
Go on then...
There is no managerial hiring in history that isn't going to be an educated risk, to be fair.
Back to Ole though it's good for all parties that he has eased off the pressure with the Newcastle game. He will have a really difficult time up until around 7th November. If he can get breathing space at that point we might be stabilized.
Also worth noting other teams dropping points will help him too. Ed/ The board will judge him on relative form I reckon rather than standalone.
Apart from his last season when it all blew up (the same thing that happened to St Jurgen at Dortmund btw), he got Spurs into the CL consistently.
If we get to the end of November and we're way off the CL places, that kind of experience might be useful to bring in, right?
Recruitment has been a problem from the beginning:
1) Moyes (sigh).
2) LVG was just terrible at it and was very knee jerk in writing people off or giving others chances they weren't ready for.
3) Jose couldn't think past immediate success and was willing to throw the future of the club under the bus for it. Perisic and Willian to replace Martial and likely Rashford's starting spot.
4) Ole keeps wanting the most expensive options out there and just can't move past it. Sancho, Grealish, and Dayot were apparently the targets in summer. Pipe dream even to get one of them at the prices mentioned.
These clearly aren't the people you want in-charge of recruiting. This should be taken away from the managers and in the hands of the scouting team or a football committee with managers having a percentage of the vote only.
Don Carlo has failed at many places since leaving AC Milan would you say the versions we witness now are his failed declined versions?
I mean the guy as failed in one season. Not even a full season. Carlo has been sacked from Chelsea, PSG, Madrid and Bayern. I can’t remember the end result of Napoli but wouldn’t be suprised if he got sacked there too. Same for Jose we picked Jose up after his second sacking (3rd if you think his mutual agreement with Madrid was a sacking).
All I’m saying is the standards seem to be conviently high when it comes to Poch for some reason. But we really know why that is.
When he took over Cardiff they were in 17th Place - 1 Point above relegation. And the only reason they were that high was because they had a decent star with 8 Points from their first 6 matches - after that, they were in freefall with something like 10 Points in 14 matches.
And he was sacked after only picking up 9 Points from the first 7 matches - the next season
So granted he didn't well- but Cardiff were never near relegation in the Championship, and the comment about never in relegation places until he was appointed is true - but considering Cardiff were 1 Point above relegation, and had United at O.T in the next game - its certainly polishing the truth to say they had never been in a relegation position before he took over
what was it you wrote: But of course facts have a funny definition when your world is under the sand.
Poch only makes sense if you genuinely believe Ole isn't good enough to get top 4 at United. But he's already got 3rd with a young, injury decimated squad last season.
Since the end of the January window we've been easily better than anyone barring City or Liverpool who we have pretty much matched.
You don't need to be an expert to see that the lack of preseason is behind the poor start to this season. All the teams who played in the EL tournament were well off their usual standards.
Now that we've had another couple of weeks fitness you can already see the quality returning. They dominated Newcastle and could have scored 6 or 7.
I know the window was disappointing and the Spurs games will have made a lot of people lose perspective but there's absolutely no reason to be panicking about top 4 right now. Despite the board cheaping out this summer we've still managed to improve our options in each line of the pitch. Compare Saturday to the same fixture last season and tell me we're not in a much better place. And that was without Martial, Greenwood and Cavani.
https://www.premierleague.com/match/46680
This time last year we were a poor side, awful to watch and struggling to create any chances. These days we are free scoring, enjoyable to watch and before the preseason mess we were quite solid defensively too. It's a mistake let a tiny sample size of games under unusual circumstances distract you from that.
Considering the fact that some of the Indian mods here run a parallel whatsapp group where they bait people into joining their whatsapp chat and leak their their display pics and attempt to doxx them for their dissenting opinions about the club, I think the "entire point" of this place goes above and beyond some simple "discussion forum".
What should I call someone who thinks himself of being the ideal fan of the club whenever he's just fanboying a manager and can't separate the club from the manager running it, virtue signals others and then gaslights them, and thinks that every other fan who disagrees with him is solely responsible for everything negative while he and is fellow brotherhood of fanboys are the olympic torchbearer of everything good around the club?
You can do a lot of thigs beginning with stopping the cringy worshipping of Ole and giving him the same treatment that his puppeteer Ed Woodward and his puppeteer the Glazers deserve.
Didn't I say it earlier? Manchester United is way bigger than the present crop of players and the recent 90 minutes of football. A fan should support the club not the manager. A fan also has 0 rights to deprive other fans of their rights to be a fan of the club. The fact that you appropriate these positions of authority for yourself and justify it with pretending that supporting a guy who holds maximum arbitrary power in the club is the only way to support the club speaks volumes here. Funny even if we are to consider such a proposition, then perhaps Sir Alex Ferguson lost a lot of "rights" when he remarked about Aberdeen's scottish cup victory over Rangers as a fall of standards. "No way we should be taking any glory from that." he said.
I don't know what your last point means but Poch has won a grand total of nothing.
I'm not even saying he wouldn't do well if he came here. I'm just not buying into the blinkered belief that many have that things would definitely be that much better. I've fell into that trap myself before.
Don’t feed the trolls. The poster depletes his quota of allowed posts in this thread, goes quiet for the rest of the day and comes back with vengeance. Without a desire to have a conversation, merely to write grand incoherent sentences. You can’t engage with him in good faith. He’s clearly a disturbed lad. Seeking attention. More you give him that, more of him you will see.
Sure Ancelotti, Rodgers, Nagelmann, Klopp, Guardiola , Giggs, Conte, Gasperini, Tuchel, Simeone - could probably find a few more if I thought about it
Ole did a very bad job at Cardiff.
But mostly because it was completely the wrong job for him. His whole career and experience was at clubs at the top end of leagues trying to play good football and win titles. He didn't know the first thing about managing bad players in relegation dog fights. It's whole different skill set and one he didn't have at the time.
whine whine whine.
Good post
So you’re not confident enough to say he won’t win a trophy but your confident enough to believe that his lack of trophies matter? Makes zero sense.
My last point refers to that if Poch would have been replacing LVG we wouldn’t be this worried, but because it means Ole will be getting the chop because of it.. it’s a different story.
Why does he deserve good players?
If winning 10 points in 14 matches is free fall then what will you call winning 12 points in 18 matches?
Yep 9 points from first 7 matches in the championship which took them to 17th place - somewhere the owner Vincent Tan didn't want to be when he was expecting Solskjaer to take them immediately back to the Premier League after all the backing he got with 17 new players ( many from his friend Jim Solbakken's agency) despite finishing 20th and relegating the club.
They didn't have United at OT in the next game and I'm not sure how that affects anything or even explains your own contradiction there besides callously alleging me of "polishing the truth" while half-ly accepting that I didn't. Not sure what this incoherent rambling was about.
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The worry seems to be mostly based on a few panicky supporters who lack perspective and some journalists who are having a great time winding them up for clicks. Compare the preseasons of the teams to the results and the reason for our poor start is crystal clear. Most of the top 10 played 4-5 preseason games over a few weeks. We had one weeks training before the first game.
As soon as they got their fitness levels up over another couple of weeks training/internationals they dominated Newcastle and played some lovely stuff. And that's even without Martial and Greenwood who were vital post lockdown. Stop worrying.
Who said anything about deserving good players?
I said it's not a situation he had any experience of. Cardiff should never have hired Ole and he should never have taken the job.
If you want to survive a relegation battle hire a manager who knows how to do that. Managing a relegation threatened team is completely different from managing a team who are trying to win trophies. Different tactics, different skillsets, different styles of football. That's why someone like Allardyce while doing well with several smaller clubs never managed a top 4 club. His skillset and performance was basically irrelevant to managing a club like United or Liverpool.
That's exactly my rationale as well. The only thing that would be improved by Poch's presence is that it would placate the 'tactix crowd' on Twitter and on here for the first few weeks until they realise it's going to be predominantly the same, with regression in some areas and improvement in others but nowhere near to the extent that many think will be possible.
I’m not going to argue your perspective or view as it can make sense. But like we complimented with squad depth. Nothing stopped Ole from not playing an unfit Pogba in the engine room. I mean he solved that problem at Newcastle right? I’m sure Scott had enough in the tank to start against Crystal Palace and Fred. VDB had a pre-season didn’t he?
Also take into context, Newcastle play the worst football in the league managed by Steve Bruce who creates more divide than Ole. But yes we played well and created a lot of chances.
Yes, I quite like Poch but if our aim is to try and win things Ole is the more likely one in my mind.
He's clearly a lot better at winning games against the bigger teams and he actually cares about winning trophies. Poch is very likeable and his teams play nice football. He would potentially have been a good appointment to pick us up after Jose and might have been able to get top 4 like Ole has. But I'm not getting why people would want him right now as we aim to try and go further.
Yes I get that. But again your making excuses for him like he’s your mate. Did Pep take on the Barcelona job fully aware of the situation he was in? Did he win titles as a manger? Did he know how to handle players on big salaries with egos like Ronaldinho? Had he previously experienced busy playing schedules which include league games followed by Champions League games and managing a squad?
The whole point of being a manager is to deal with these experiences. How you deal with them shows your quality as a manager. Otherwise let’s give G.Nev a try at this job.
Yeah, I mean, he's a good manager and I'm sure he'll do well in his next job wherever it may be, but considering what Ole has done for us in the close to two years he's been in the job, I think we owe it to ourselves to see how it pans out.
If he capitulates this year, and while he'll have more than a few mitigating circumstances considering the CB and RW spots were not filled, then he should be let go. However, if he maintains Top 4 (big if, considering how ultra-competitive this season has started) then he needs to be backed next summer and that CB, RW and long-term Matic replacement simple NEED to be brought in. No excuses.
He took over a side that had 4W,6D,10L in 20 and was 1 point from the relegation zone, they were in loads of trouble. Not saying he did well there and some of the transfers he did were downright naive, but Cardiff were shit long before he arrived there, he just failed to steady the ship
The VDB over Pogba argument is a tricky one. VDB should definitely be the fittest midfielder in the squad after having a full preseason and he's played well every time he's been on the pitch. But I think Ole see's him as someone who plays further forward and probably doesn't see him as an option in the pivot. I don't think he signed him with that role in mind at all. But perhaps he could have done it having played a bit there for Ajax.
Scott and Fred would have probably been his main alternatives to Pogba and both would have had a short preseason as well. Clearly Ole got it wrong in picking Pogba though who looked well off the pace likely due to getting Covid. It's definitely possibly that Fred or Scott would have done a better job. Whether he felt ok in training but couldn't actually bring it to a the real intensity of a game we can only guess. But it definitely backfired.
I do understand why no doubt feeling some anxiety due to the lack of preparation going into the season that he chose to go with the midfield that performed so well and developed such a good understanding after lockdown. But it was the wrong choice.
I was pleased to see Paul left out of the Newcastle game. With the flurry of games coming up he will need to rotate constantly. The idea of having a fixed 11 is going to disappear for the next few months as we will just have too many games. So it's great to see Fred and Scott especially show some real form. Pogba needs to earn his minutes like the others.
I don't really care what he's done in the past to be honest, I'd judge him on how he does here like I do with Ole instead of banging on about 6 years ago at Cardiff.
On your second point at the moment yes because things are nowhere near as bad as LVGs final season. I'm sure people forget how bad it was FA Cup or not.
Well if you don’t care why bring up his past?
I remember LVG’s last season but there’s nothing Ole’s delivered to give me hope we’ve left that level of performance. We just hover in and out which for me is not good enough. Not being able to win 3 games on the bounce until the last third of the season is not good enough to me.
It's nothing personal to me. I always liked Ole but he was never one of my favourite players or anything. I wasn't giddy when he was in the starting lineup nor was I when he was given the caretaker role. I thought it was just something temporary while we searched for a real candidate. Even if I loved Ole I think the job is too important for sentimentality. I feel the same about players. When they are no longer good enough, it's time to move them on. I definitely criticise Ole's decision to take on the Cardiff job and also his performance in the role.
And I definitely agree that he's learning on the job. He'd admit that himself I'm sure. When he signed it was a bit like you said, "giving G. Nev a try at the job"
But he's been doing it for 20 months right now and succeeding. Obviously having a manager learn on the job is hugely risky at this level. But the risk has paid off as far as I'm concerned because we are simply a much better team than we were this time last year. We score goals much more easily and barring a couple of games after not having a preseason we have been much better at keeping them out in 2020. It's a younger squad who play better football.
Considering he's now got 20 months of valuable experience, has hit his targets and got us playing some enjoyable football I think we need to back him and see if he and the team can continue the progress. He's no longer a novice at this level and it's no longer like giving Nev a go at it.
So Solskjaer should be given benefit of doubt for finishing the remaining 18 games with 3W,3D,12L because that job of saving teams from relegation is different from managing top sides like United and Liverpool. I would like to agree there. And there wouldn't be any argument had his job ended with relegating Cardiff.
But the next season his side was one of the better teams in the Championship (Lifted the Championship trophy the season prior) was heavily refurbished (17 new players signed) under Solskjaer's supervision. Expectations were to get them immediately back into the Premier League (and not saving them from being relegated to the League one), which one would think should dovetail perfectly with "Solskjaer's philosophy". And yet his returns were a dismal 2W,2D,3L until they parted company because of "difference in philosophy". It's not as if he didn't get the opportunity of a different job profile than what he was hired on. He was a failure on both counts. And that is why no semi-decent Football club looks at him as their managerial candidate.
Heck even Toronto FC took a pass, for Christ's sake.
It doesn't make sense I suppose because it's most of we've got to go on when choosing a new manager. But I won't pick and choose the best bits of a managers career and choose to assume that's what we'll get.
We'll have to agree to disagree that we're at the same level as LVGs final season. We had more shots on Saturday night than we used to see in a month at times.
It's incredibly weird that people are still arguing over this 20 months into his time at United.
I agree he’s hit targets and I don’t judge him as I would other managers. But as supportive as I could be I can’t fully back this decision to continue his project when ‘I believe’ there is a manager who has all the skill sets required to continue this trajectory playing better football whilst achieving above expected targets. Call me foolish but with VVD injured and the current overlook of the league we can challenge for the title this season with the squad we have. But unfortunately our manager will prevent this.
This. I wonder how many games these poch crowd actually watched under the Poch Spurs era. I am not saying Poch is a poor coach or anything, only trying to put some perspective here.
Some of these tactics crowd have gone so far one way that they cannot see anything other than Poch.
I fear that if this pressure is too much and Ole is sacked with Poch in, we will see a 2 month bounce and they will all be like I told you so... then the same issues will crop up again and they will say.. Ed Woodward has not backed him.
2 years later than when the rest of the fan based realised this.
The only thing I would like about that is that the thread would be locked during games so we get less reactionary posting off single events. If you come into this thread post game on a high from the result but see several posts taking us getting a goal against us as reason to sack the manager, then I understand why some would feel a little more gloaty in their language.
I used to post a lot in here, but I have put the thread on ignore so that I don't have to see it constantly bumped. 4 losses in 31 games and some still say that there's an absolute certainty that we can never win any big honors with Ole in charge. If it wasn't for the fact that if we lose a game there will spawn 2-3 more Ole out threads then I wouldn't know anyone had an opinion about the manager, cause the performance thread is hardly used at all.
I love @sammsky1's posts in here. He is exaggerating for sure, but he speaks a lot of truth about how certain posters are perceivably happy if we lose a game.
I love how he winds some people up here, because it's the same way I feel wound up by posters focusing on all the negative things around the club.
I only came in here now to see how the thread would react to us winning, and it showcased exactly why for me it was a good decision to put the thread on ignore. Just reading all this has cost me lots of time and energy.
I actually wonder how many on the caf has the thread on ignore by now.
To end on something more on topic. I believe that Ole has done a great job here so far with turning the ship around and refreshing the squad. I'm much more positive about the future now than what I was 2 years ago. Do I know if we can win big things with Ole in charge? No I don't, but I also don't know that we can't. There's no other manager I would happily swap him with right now and believe that alone would turn us into world beaters. I know that progress takes time, and I'd rather evaluate the situation towards the end of seasons and then consider making changes early summer if needed when we have all the results, instead of calling for sackings 3 minutes into a match.
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Excerpt from Bruno's interview:
Ole himself has said that these moves are practiced, but that he also allows the players some freedom to express themselves in certain areas, which adds a layer of unpredictability to our game.
Hmmm... So they're not just flying kites in training? We're actually coaching attacking patterns as opposed to the imbecilic view which has just been plucked out of the sky that we only rely on player creativity.
Ole himself has said that these moves are practiced, but that he also allows the players some freedom to express themselves in certain areas, which adds a layer of unpredictability to our game.
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