You think a shirt pull is worse than a kick to the chops??
Would you want to see harsher punishment for stopping counter attacks?
- Thread starter Josep Dowling
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The fact that people want it to be called a sin bin turns me off of the idea entirely.
They could what they've done in GAA in Ireland. To curb the rise of cynical offences they've introduced a black card and it means you get 10 mins in the bin. If you get a yellow and a black it's a red.
I think that‘d be horrible. It‘s a contact-sport for a reason. Those contacts are by far intentional and well within the rules. If what you proposed would be enforced you‘d have to completely rethink the whole sport imho since otherwise we wouldn‘t talk about a justified red every, say 3-5 games but about 5-10+ occasions every single game. Heck, prolly every corner kick would eventually result in a pen-discussion with all the wrestling going on. And then you‘d have refs being adamant about it because of „spirit of the game“ and others enforcing it by the tee resulting in very unbalanced fixtures because of a grey zone bigger than the whole pitch.
A start should be that the existing rule is enforced more often - that's rather easy, my bigger gripe personally would be all the diving that‘s going on and that those are hardly ever punished, even the blatant ones, while the majority is hard to punish since a player losing all composure from one moment to the other seems suspicious but not as clear as those tactical fouls yet I'd argue that the former have way more negative impact on how the game is played as well as seen by the fans.
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A different option to a sin bin would be an enforced sub of the offending player. Keeps it XI vs XI but weakens the offending side.
That's what it's already called in other sports. No doubt it would have a snazzy new name for the Premier League.
As annoying as that was as an England fan I'm not sure you can give a red for it. Tactical fouling of that kind is becoming increasingly annoying. Especially letting them go early in matches.
Totally agree. The rules should state that it is an automatic yellow card offense, and refs should enforce that rule regardless of when the offense occurs. Essentially I'd like to see it become the football version of the NBA's "clear path foul" rule, where fouling a player on the fast break can result in free throws and possession if the foul prevented a "clear path" to the hoop. I believe if refs enforced such a rule consistently, defenders would stop taking those fouls for fear of getting into card trouble or we would see more double-yellow sending offs as players adjusted.
Would the game become mote boring if it would be punishrf with a straight red?
In the end, it's a tactic to prevent counter attacks and if this option is cut short, teams would delegate more players to stay back and be less risky going forward.
In the end, it's a tactic to prevent counter attacks and if this option is cut short, teams would delegate more players to stay back and be less risky going forward.
Tactical fouling is a yellow and that would be correct. So in theory, each player can get away with one incident per match and I have no problem with that.
But it's the Thiago's and the Fernandinho's who do about 5 or 10 per match that annoys people. I don't care if that means they are sent off after 5 minutes every match. It's unfair on the other team to have to keep dealing with repeated, unpunished tactical fouls. Sort it out refs.
But it's the Thiago's and the Fernandinho's who do about 5 or 10 per match that annoys people. I don't care if that means they are sent off after 5 minutes every match. It's unfair on the other team to have to keep dealing with repeated, unpunished tactical fouls. Sort it out refs.
Everything is a "potential goal scoring opportunity", can't card every foul now can we?
I had the idea of a positional penalty and a yellow card.
Meaning if it is a blatantly cynical foul like Chiellini's was then you book the player but also set up a positional advantage for the team affected. So a 3-on-3 attack with every other player starting 20-30 yards behind play and the defenders 15-20 yards away from the 3 attackers at the whistle.
I'm fully aware of how ridiculous it would be to enforce but it would definitely work. Players would be far more wary of risking a guaranteed 3-on-3 counter with space for the attackers to run into.
Meaning if it is a blatantly cynical foul like Chiellini's was then you book the player but also set up a positional advantage for the team affected. So a 3-on-3 attack with every other player starting 20-30 yards behind play and the defenders 15-20 yards away from the 3 attackers at the whistle.
I'm fully aware of how ridiculous it would be to enforce but it would definitely work. Players would be far more wary of risking a guaranteed 3-on-3 counter with space for the attackers to run into.
I just want referees in the PL that are as consistent and high level as the referees in Europe. Problem today is that you don’t know on which side of the bed the referee woke up and which rule book they decide to use.
It's typically why I'm in favor of sin bins.
Came here to say this but these are my thoughts exactly. Italy and Denmark were full of tactical fouls in just the last couple of games i watched but its genuinely rife in football.
for me i think the line gets blurred between these tactical fouls and the types of actual accidental or minor fouls where the ref used to go ‘you can have 3 before you are booked’.
if a referee allows 4 tactical fouls before giving a yellow card its ridiculous as thats 4 dangerous attacks stopped by just one player for no punishment. What happens when theres 4 or 5 opposition players doing it? Its so anti football.
Arsene Wenger was one of the first to employ these tactics which is why I never liked him or his Arsenal teams
It absolutely ruins the game. It's not just about what happened with Chellini which was more of a one off, but it enables an entire tactical strategy that teams like City (they aren't the only offenders) employ; play a high line / high risk pressing approach and if you get broken down and face a dangerous counter attack, oh well, just make a cynical foul and start again. It's such an advantage to those teams that have better technical players and have to face next to zero consequences when they get exposed. A yellow just isn't enough. Lower level teams, that may be the only good chance they get all match and it is undeservedly taken away because a team is caught out of position due to a high risk type tactic.
I'm actually fine with a red card honestly. Overall I do believe a red is harsh, but I really do believe this type of cynical approach ruins matches, so I'm all for cleaning this behavior up. I get the argument that a red in this circumstance also may ruin the match, but I don't care as I think if that was enforced in such a manner, you'd see it stop real quick. Also, it's not heat of the moment type of foul or moment of madness or whatever, it's a deliberate, thought out and intentional act to stop a counter attack. They know exactly what they are doing, can easily choose not to do it if they know the consequence is harsh, and well, if you commit the foul, see ya in 2 games.
A more reasonable approach would be to implement the sin bin / penalty box concept. Give a yellow, but the offender off the pitch for 15 mins. Then some sort of accumulation similar to overall yellow accumulation, but specific for this type of foul. Every second time you do it, miss the next match.
I'm actually fine with a red card honestly. Overall I do believe a red is harsh, but I really do believe this type of cynical approach ruins matches, so I'm all for cleaning this behavior up. I get the argument that a red in this circumstance also may ruin the match, but I don't care as I think if that was enforced in such a manner, you'd see it stop real quick. Also, it's not heat of the moment type of foul or moment of madness or whatever, it's a deliberate, thought out and intentional act to stop a counter attack. They know exactly what they are doing, can easily choose not to do it if they know the consequence is harsh, and well, if you commit the foul, see ya in 2 games.
A more reasonable approach would be to implement the sin bin / penalty box concept. Give a yellow, but the offender off the pitch for 15 mins. Then some sort of accumulation similar to overall yellow accumulation, but specific for this type of foul. Every second time you do it, miss the next match.
No problems with tactical fouls. Yellow card and that is it.
‘Harsher’ but fair would be to actually give yellows for it from the off, and the subsequent second yellow that no doubt follows, instead of not giving them for the entire first half.
Those other sports are stupid, then.
This sums it up really.
So long as the second one leads to a red rather than turning a blind eye
I'd rather see a solution to deal with the prevalent diving. This is somewhat really ruining the sport and it's hard to punish since it's almost impossible to prove. Punishing the blatant ones hardly ever occurs but I think even that wouldn't change much.
Yellow for a tactical foul is sound. Please never ever a " sin bin" in football.
Yellow for a tactical foul is sound. Please never ever a " sin bin" in football.
Completely agree. Chiellini's foul was beyond cynical, I was shocked at how nonchalantly he floored Saka. Should have been a red card.
Correct.
Personally I like seeing some "Dark Arts" in the game (I did do even when Fergusons United were among the main culprits).
It's a thing of beauty when a skilful forward outwits a tough defender and keeps the move alive.
There is here in Ireland in the GAA. A cynical or "personal" foul by a player results in a black card. The player is sent off, but can be replaced by a substitute.
Absolutely , I also hope for the Offside changes. Counter attacking is not as fun anymore as it used to
I dont know why skysports does not post anything on Copa America but final between Argentina and Brazil had best refreeing. No crap soft fouls, play acting etcs were given. By the 85 minute I guess 4 people were pulling Neymar and he was still running and not diving. So please do not add any more rules. Some physical contacts should be given.
To be honest, I'm completely fine with and actually kinda respect blatant tactical fouling to prevent a counter. Sweeping the runners legs, pulling back on the shirt, wrapping your arms around them, without trying to hide it and accepting your yellow/red and move on. The punishment is fine as it is.
Its where tactics are built around sly tactical fouls to disrupt opposition play with the goal of not getting punished for it that needs to be dealt with more consistently. Constant small fouls to break up play, "accidently" tripping players up by running across them whilst pretending not to see them, etc, need to be stamped down on more quickly by refs even if it means giving out earlier cards.
Its where tactics are built around sly tactical fouls to disrupt opposition play with the goal of not getting punished for it that needs to be dealt with more consistently. Constant small fouls to break up play, "accidently" tripping players up by running across them whilst pretending not to see them, etc, need to be stamped down on more quickly by refs even if it means giving out earlier cards.
Don't think you need to change the rules, just the officiating.
If last man, clear opportunity, you get a red already?
If not, give every one a yellow.
Obviously Fernandinho and a couple of other City players wouldn't make HT but so what?
The officiating at the Euros was MAINLY good. They didn't fall for much of the play acting, just waved on... they gave cards when needed/no drama... and they never seemed to be running away from players like they do in the PL.
That's what refs should be... completely in charge. Players are too mollycoddled
Yes. Red card all the way. That is not football. It was assault. Chiellini is a wily old fox and a great player. He knew he would get away with a yellow card.
I think so too. Sort of like how England play under Southgate... safety first with a good number of players staying back to prevent any sort of counter opportunity.
Exactly this. The punishment is fine, the problem is the tendency you so eloquently described, they actually don’t use the tools at their disposal (refs).
I have an issue with counter attacks being treated as this special means of attack, to which it's impediments (tactical fouling) must be treated more harshly than impediments against other forms of attack (set pieces, tiki-taka).
Yellow cards are fine.
Yellow cards are fine.
And the teams really good at tactical fouling do so before the counter attack is won... They foul right after the ball is lost, allowing them to get back into a defensive shape, but the foul is done challenging for the ball. That's not a yellow card offense, annoying as it may be.
Yes, these need to be red cards, 100%. It is pure cheating. Yet people laugh and applaud this behaviour.
There is always outrage when players 'dive'. In reality, they are evading a tackle that might leave them injured or worse. I support when a player goes to ground like this.
However, stopping a player like this with zero attempt at a fair challenge to win the ball is blatant cheating and should be punished with a red card.
There is always outrage when players 'dive'. In reality, they are evading a tackle that might leave them injured or worse. I support when a player goes to ground like this.
However, stopping a player like this with zero attempt at a fair challenge to win the ball is blatant cheating and should be punished with a red card.
I think its the next step after the removal of the backpass to a great improvement in match quality. So many of the "positive" teams rely on tactical and rotational fouling in the transitional phases.
This is it, basically.
No need to make a cynical foul to stop a counter attack a red, but referees need to be far more consistent with dishing out yellows, even it means dishing out more red cards as a result.
Refs are too routinely praise for "letting the game flow" when it quite often means they've just ignored a load of fouls.
+1 / QFT