Zlatan or Rooney?

[GM K]

You must have very easy definition of legend if you think he is Legend at Juventus, Inter and Milan. Played 2 seasons at Juve before moving to their rivals when they were relegated. Played 3 seasons at Inter and 2 at Milan. No doubt at PSG though.

You can say he is at Inter as he played 3 seasons winning 3 league titles but that's pushing a bit.

Actually the word 'legend' does have an easy definition. It does not mean the 'best' or 'most important' or 'most title winning' as your post seems to insinuate. A legend is 'an extremely famous or notorious person...' or someone who inspires a 'legend'.

Think about that, and not just what he won for any club alone and you'll understand why I insist he was a legend at those clubs.

 

[GM K]

He was underwhelming in last 2 seasons in Juventus. There was open criticism of his play during his last year when the gate for that discussion about his contribution in key games, especially CL matches, opened. He left Juve after Calciopoli scandal with Raiola acting like Raiola usually does, brutally forcing his move out. Juve had many great strikers prior, during that era but Ibra won't be remembered among the greats.
He also left Ajax on not so good terms, falling out with a number of players and with not so great scoring record. Inter was a very good spell, but they had their best season after he left. In Milan, he had a very good second season and that's it.
In terms of legend aura, I can really only see PSG and Sweden which is a little bit underwhelming. Too much of a maverick to be considered such. Maybe legend of the game would be more appropriate, but even than his persona has a large part in it.



I never heard Zlatan in terms of GOAT discussion, except coming from him. Rooney at his peak was regarded only behind Messi and Ronaldo in terms of forwards.
The rise of Zlatan in last few years and at the same time Rooney atrocious fall from grace (his own fault, though) has a big influence on this discussion imo. I still stand that I would take peak Rooney over Zlatan. 2006 - 2011 version.

I said, 'while discussing players below that GOAT tier'

Well, I have heard his name pop up in those conversations many times. He only often falls short based on his trophy cabinet (lack of CL and WC) and never based on his on field capabilities.

 

[KirkDuyt]

What?? Zlatan is not an Ajax legend?

'Legend' does not mean the 'best' or 'most important'. A legend is 'an extremely famous or notorious person...' or someone who inspires a 'legend'.
That NAC Breda game alone (not to talk of his then record purchase, his many outstanding/unforgettable performances, his dressing room incidences, the controversies surrounding his sale, and his notorious periods at Ajax), easily made Zlatan an Ajax Legend. That famous goal, was arguably the finest moment of Zlatan's career. Booed at the start of the game and then he turned on his genius and brought the arena to its feet. Do you know what the banner Ajax fans put up for Zlatan when he returned to the Arena in that 2014 PSG game versus Ajax? 'Welcome back son of god'

Ajax call themselves Godenzonen (Dutch for sons of God). That's why they put up that banner, it has nothing to do with him being some sort of chosen one or extremely special.

As a part from being a legend it's not about being the best or most important, but it's more than just being (in)famous. Zlatan scored a great goal against a relegation fodder team. Steven Bergwijn scored a similar goal against a slightly better team this year for PSV. Ever heard of Bergwijn? Kluiverts goal against Milan, Van Basten's bicycle kick, some of Bergkamp's goals. Cruyff in the 70s, those are Ajax legends. Zlatan is, as I said, one in a long line of great players to play for Ajax, but compared to people like Cruijff, Van Basten en Bergkamp he's an insignificant footnote in Ajax'history. For the notorious part. Sure Zlatan was a self important cnut at Ajax and had a falling out with Vd Vaart and Mido, called Cruijff an old fool and LVG a humourless dictator. Royston Drenthe has had falling outs with everyone almost everywhere, that doesnt really make you a legend, that makes you a pariah.

Don't mistake me for trying to talk up Ajax btw, they are by far my least favourite club in the world, but they've had too many illustrious players for Zlatan to be a legend there.

 

[GM K]

Ajax call themselves Godenzonen (Dutch for sons of God). That's why they put up that banner, it has nothing to do with him being some sort of chosen one or extremely special.

As a part from being a legend it's not about being the best or most important, but it's more than just being (in)famous. Zlatan scored a great goal against a relegation fodder team. Steven Bergwijn scored a similar goal against a slightly better team this year for PSV. Ever heard of Bergwijn? Kluiverts goal against Milan, Van Basten's bicycle kick, some of Bergkamp's goals. Cruyff in the 70s, those are Ajax legends. Zlatan is, as I said, one in a long line of great players to play for Ajax, but compared to people like Cruijff, Van Basten en Bergkamp he's an insignificant footnote in Ajax'history.

Don't mistake me for trying to talk up Ajax btw, they are by far my least favourite club in the world, but they've had too many illustrious players for Zlatan to be a legend there.

Again, you keep arguing along 'best' or 'most important' player lines. I never compared his history to those of Cryuff, or Van Basten or Bergkamp. Of course not. But that I player is not as great as some others in a club's history, does not necessarily mean that player was not famous enough to be tagged a legend.

I made a case for Zlatan strictly on the basic definition of the word 'legend' not to say he was one of Ajax's most important players of all time (by the way, he was certainly one of Ajax's most gifted talents of all time).

I guess, we are defining the word differently so i am happy to agree to disagree.

 

[King7Eric]

Its gotta be Rooney. At their respective peaks I'd say Rooney was slightly the better player. Also his contributions in big matches are much superior to Zlatan's. Don't forget there was a period before he moved to PSG that Zlatan was thought of someone who always failed to show up in big matches. I remember the headline in some paper after we played Inter in 09 when the reporter said that "While Zlatan postured like a great player, Ronaldo played like one". I think that was the story of Zlatan's career until he moved to PSG.

Also most of his titles have been in dubious circumstances. The 3 titles in Seria A were when Juve were relegated and Milan were also docked some points in one season if I remember correctly (could be wrong about Milan). At PSG he won titles in a one team league and they never achieved anything in Europe. His title at Barca and the one at Milan are fair game (though you could argue with that Barca team, they would have won with or without him).

Rooney won 5 titles in probably the most competitive league in the world, beating the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and later City at the peak of their powers. He was an integral part of a team that reached 3 CL finals, winning one.

Also Rooney produced big moments in big matches, his last minute goal against Milan, that debut winner against Arsenal, the 2 leg demolition of Milan in 09/10, the goal in the CL final (though it was in a losing effort) and of course that goal against City.

They are both leading scorers for their respective countries while having done nothing much in major tournaments, so we can call it even here, though probably Rooney has surpassed greater players in becoming England's leading scorer than Zlatan has with Sweden (of course its not Zlatan's fault).

And lastly, Zlatan is the all time leading scorer of PSG, Rooney is the all time leading scorer of Manchester United. Enough said.

 

[King7Eric]

What????? Rooney???
Remembered by who? United fans or the global football confraternity?

Zlatan for me. He is a greater global football icon than Rooney.

Don't get me wrong, Rooney is a legend but I believe Zlatan is far more iconic at a global level.

Sorry mate but Tevez won league titles with Utd, City and Juve. I don't he's gonna be considered a legend at any club. Winning titles does not make you a legend. Its the impact you make on the club's history that make you a legend. Zlatan can only be considered a PSG legend. Rooney is the all time top scorer of one of the biggest clubs in the world, of course he'll be remembered in 50 years by the whole footballing fraternity.

 

[prtk0811]

Very difficult.

 

[Jim Beam]

I said, 'while discussing players below that GOAT tier'

Well, I have heard his name pop up in those conversations many times. He only often falls short based on his trophy cabinet (lack of CL and WC) and never based on his on field capabilities.

You got me slightly confused here.

In the GOAT conversations, while discussing players below that tier who could easily have been in the tier if they had a few extra key medals, I have heard the name of Zlatan pop up.

By this, it seems to me, that Zlatan is below that tier but misses out in some discussions for GOAT tier place just because he doesn't have few extra key medals. Which also implies that just in terms of his individual ability he could be up there which is not true imo.

Just out of curiosity, who would you rank in that bellow tier along with him?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Again, you keep arguing along 'best' or 'most important' player lines. I never compared his history to those of Cryuff, or Van Basten or Bergkamp. Of course not. But that I player is not as great as some others in a club's history, does not necessarily mean that player was not famous enough to be tagged a legend.

I made a case for Zlatan strictly on the basic definition of the word 'legend' not to say he was one of Ajax's most important players of all time (by the way, he was certainly one of Ajax's most gifted talents of all time).

I guess, we are defining the word differently so i am happy to agree to disagree.

Let's keep it at that then sir

 

[GM K]

Let's keep it at that then sir

Happy to do sir.

 

[GM K]

Sorry mate but Tevez won league titles with Utd, City and Juve. I don't he's gonna be considered a legend at any club. Winning titles does not make you a legend. Its the impact you make on the club's history that make you a legend. Zlatan can only be considered a PSG legend. Rooney is the all time top scorer of one of the biggest clubs in the world, of course he'll be remembered in 50 years by the whole footballing fraternity.

I am pretty confident that a 'Who is the greater icon?' poll in Holland, Italy, Spain and even England would tilt to Zlatan over Rooney and that does not have everything to do with titles. The same poll among United fans? Well, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[GM K]

You got me slightly confused here.



By this, it seems to me, that Zlatan is below that tier but misses out in some discussions for GOAT tier place just because he doesn't have few extra key medals. Which also implies that just in terms of his individual ability he could be up there which is not true imo.

Just out of curiosity, who would you rank in that bellow tier along with him?

GOAT tier

Maradona, Messi, Pele, Ronaldo, C. Ronaldo

Below GOAT tier
Puskas, Garrincha, Zico, Cryuff, Zidane, Romario, Seedorf, Pirlo, Iniesta, Xavi, Maldini, Henry, Bergkamp, Rijkaard, etc

 

[KirkDuyt]

GOAT tier

Maradona, Messi, Pele, Ronaldo, C. Ronaldo

Below GOAT tier
Puskas, Garrincha, Zico, Cryuff, Zidane, Romario, Seedorf, Pirlo, Iniesta, Xavi, Maldini, Henry, Bergkamp, Rijkaard, etc

We agreed to disagree, but I wept as I read this

 

[nonso]

Hated Wayne Rooney by the time he left here but my word! the constant underrating of Wayne Rooney by our fans is ridiculous, Rooney's peak was better than anything Ibra could come up with, and yes I don't give a feck bout the 50 goals IBRA scored in French league,
IBRA couldn't even hack it at barce

 

[Ikon]

Is this a joke? Sorry but Rooneys career can't hold a candle to Zlatans. Its not even a legitimate question.

Bit of a biased view mate.
Manchester United
Premier League (5): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2010–11, 2012–13
FA Cup: 2015–16
Football League Cup (3): 2005–06, 2009–10, 2016–17
FA Community Shield (4): 2007, 2010, 2011, 2016
UEFA Champions League: 2007–08
UEFA Europa League: 2016–17
FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Record goalscorer for both England and United.
I'd say Rooney is entitled to at least hold a candle..!

 

[poleglass red]

I'g go with Rooney if we are talking about them in their primes, 2 great players no doubt. Rooney in his early days was pure class. He peaked a bit early for most of our likings. Ibra has had the longer career, but although they were both attacking players. The work rate Rooney put in per game was unbelievable.

 

[red_devil83]

If you could have either one now, at any age, you'd probably pick Rooney.

 

[King7Eric]

I am pretty confident that a 'Who is the greater icon?' poll in Holland, Italy, Spain and even England would tilt to Zlatan over Rooney and that does not have everything to do with titles. The same poll among United fans? Well, your guess is as good as mine.

Mate I live in Barcelona and even here they don't regard Zlatan as any footballing icon. Most here just regard him as a very good but highly overrated footballer. And I'm pretty sure anyone in England who's labeling Zlatan as a bigger icon than Rooney is just doing it out of spite because they dislike the man. In Italy Zlatan will probably be considered better.

But this is a subjective discussion as to who's the bigger icon and we could argue about it but I doubt we'll reach any consensus. So let's leave it at that.

 

[BarcaSpurs]

Feel like not enough is being made of Zlatans poor Champions League record compared to Rooney. Its not just that Rooney has won it and Ibra hasnt, Rooneys won it, been to 2 further finals and had many excellent performances against top teams in the latter stages of the competition. Zlatan has made it to the Semi Finals just once in his entire career, for Barca in 2010 and he was absolutely terrible in it.

For supposedly arguably the best striker of his generation hes generally contributed very little in the tough parts of the biggest club competiton despite playing for some of the best teams in the world. Most of his legacy is down to winning titles in post Calciopoli serie a with the only top team not to get ruined by it and bossing the french league with a team far better than everyone else in the league.

I don't think its as clear cut in rooneys favour as the above is implying but i think theres a lot of overrating of Zlatans career here.

 

[Dir Wangem]

If you could have either one now, at any age, you'd probably pick Rooney.

No way. If picking Zlatan means that we could have him for his entire career, then we'd pretty much have a main target man for more than 10 seasons, with at least 5 of those being world class(compared to Rooney's one or two).

Zlatan way past his peak still managed score a bucketload of goals for a mediocre/decent United team before he got injured. He's clearly cut out for the PL.

 

[shamans]

Zlatan.

He was usually the best player for his team, wherever he went.

Rooney has been the best player at United in, what, two seasons out of twelve(?). The other seasons he was part of the team, not the focus of it. Rooney's 'potential', 'missed oppurtunities' and general hype, especially in this country, stemmed from one impressive showing at a Euros in 2004.

Zlatan was the best player for which clubs? PSG? At the one big club he did go to, Barcelona, he flopped. Rooney was our best player for more than two years and as for the other years we had Cristiano Ronaldo (arguably one of the all time greats) ahead of him only.

This Zlatan revisionism has become a bit tiring. Like I said, he'll be remembered as one of the finest strikers of his generation but let's not forget his career wasn't all that shiny.

 

[shamans]

Feel like not enough is being made of Zlatans poor Champions League record compared to Rooney. Its not just that Rooney has won it and Ibra hasnt, Rooneys won it, been to 2 further finals and had many excellent performances against top teams in the latter stages of the competition. Zlatan has made it to the Semi Finals just once in his entire career, for Barca in 2010 and he was absolutely terrible in it.

For supposedly arguably the best striker of his generation hes generally contributed very little in the tough parts of the biggest club competiton despite playing for some of the best teams in the world. Most of his legacy is down to winning titles in post Calciopoli serie a with the only top team not to get ruined by it and bossing the french league with a team far better than everyone else in the league.

I don't think its as clear cut in rooneys favour as the above is implying but i think theres a lot of overrating of Zlatans career here.

Zlatan the person and his career is incredibly overrated. Sometimes his skill is overrated too but that is any top player. In Zlatans case, it's difficult to overrate his skill because of how amazing he is (has been) on the pitch but his career doesn't hold up against Rooney's imo.

Forget Rooney. Terry probably has had a better career than Zlatan.

 

[devilish]

Zlatan was the best player for which clubs? PSG? At the one big club he did go to, Barcelona, he flopped. Rooney was our best player for more than two years and as for the other years we had Cristiano Ronaldo (arguably one of the all time greats) ahead of him only.

This Zlatan revisionism has become a bit tiring. Like I said, he'll be remembered as one of the finest strikers of his generation but let's not forget his career wasn't all that shiny.

At Barcelona he played 46 games he scored 22 goals and he produced 12 assists. If Danny Welbeck had such record with us then we would have made him a statue in front of OT.

 

[shamans]

At Barcelona he played 46 games he scored 22 goals and he produced 12 assists. If Danny Welbeck had such record with us then we would have made him a statue in front of OT.

And how did it end up? Are you saying he was the best player at Barca?

The fans, the manager and the team for the most part had no desire for him anymore. At the same time Rooney was tearing up teams and actually winning trophies.

I mentioned earlier that Zlatan could have had the better career if he played (with success) for top clubs but that didn't happen did it.

 

[shamans]

Is this satire?

Zlatan won leagues and cups in Holland, Italy (3 different clubs?), Spain and France. Until United he won the title anywhere he played after Ajax.

Sorry, Rooney was good, but Zlatan's track record is better and he has got more fight in him even until this old age.

Why don't you mention the amount of leagues, and the clubs he won them for?

 

[devilish]

And how did it end up? Are you saying he was the best player at Barca?

The fans, the manager and the team for the most part had no desire for him anymore. At the same time Rooney was tearing up teams and actually winning trophies.

I mentioned earlier that Zlatan could have had the better career if he played (with success) for top clubs but that didn't happen did it.

No he wasn't. The best player was 4 times ballon d'or winner Lionel Messi whose considered by many as the best player the world has ever seen.

Pep didn't like Zlatan very much. He also played him out of position (in wide areas) which hindered his performance. Despite everything he was still able to score 22 goals and produce 12 assists in 46 games. How many goals/assists had Rooney produced as a flank man? How many goals/assists do you think he will produce at age 36?

Just ask any neutral whose the better player between Zlatan and Rooney and you'll get an answer.

 

[jem]

Rooneys best seasons at United he hit 34 goals in all comps.

Zlatan would of done that last year in a average United side if not for his injury, in his first year in England at 35. Rooney is a good few years younger and he's completely finished.

Let's be honest, Rooney was great and had a great career but Zlatan was better.

Which highlights why stats are a tricky measurement at times. Zlatan last year was nowhere close to the 2009-10 Rooney, IMO.

 

[shamans]

No he wasn't. The best player was 4 times ballon d'or winner Lionel Messi whose considered by many as the best player the world has ever seen.

Pep didn't like Zlatan very much. He also played him out of position (in wide areas) which hindered his performance. Despite everything he was still able to score 22 goals and produce 12 assists in 46 games. How many goals/assists had Rooney produced as a flank man? How many goals/assists do you think he will produce at age 36?

Just ask any neutral whose the better player between Zlatan and Rooney and you'll get an answer.

And who was the second best player? The third best? The fourth best?

Zlatan was a hindrance to Barca's success if anything. Also, this just shows you like many others didn't bother to read the OP. We are not discussing the players but their careers. Like I said, Terry had a better career than Zlatan and it's obvious who is the better player.

 

[manunajted]

You know people lost their shit when Rooney suddenly became a better player than Zlatan.

Rooney had a great career, but anyone who compares them objectively would choose Zlatan every day.

 

[devilish]

And who was the second best player? The third best? The fourth best?

Zlatan was a hindrance to Barca's success if anything. Also, this just shows you like many others didn't bother to read the OP. We are not discussing the players but their careers. Like I said, Terry had a better career than Zlatan and it's obvious who is the better player.

Do you think that a striker who scored 22 goals and produced 12 assists out of 46 games despite playing out of position is a hindrance? Really?

I am not protecting Ibra about anything. He's a complex man similar to Cantona. He was unlucky too. Inter and Milan were a circus act, Pep never liked him and the only proper club he played for ended up in the Serie B following a big scandal. Its a shame that he had never worked with SAF. I am sure that the two would have done wonders together and his career would have been different to what it is now.

Having said that, anyone who worked with Ibra will tell you the same thing over and over again. He's a magnificent talent, he's a winner and he's a professional on and off the pitch. The very fact that he still produces great football at age 37 shows that. You won't find 1 photo of a wasted Ibra around. At age 32 Ibra was the best player at PSG carrying his team to success. Even at his age theres big club like United, AC Milan and Inter who want him which kind of shows how insanely good and professional Ibra is. Where's Rooney now?

 

[mcutdgreat]

the point is rooney is overrated..
if compare any famous player and Rooney,who has better career,i will choose the other guy,not Rooney.

 

[devilish]

You know people lost their shit when Rooney suddenly became a better player than Zlatan.

Rooney had a great career, but anyone who compares them objectively would choose Zlatan every day.

Rooney was lucky to have been working with the best manager in football for most of his career. Mou is nowhere near to SAF in terms of man management and yet Zlatan would still go to hell and back for him.

 

[Foxbatt]

It depends on whom you ask. United is one of the biggest clubs in the World but during the time Rooney won the CL there were better players than Rooney at United. This is something we should not forget. Zlatan would have won the CL if Milan did not sell him to Barca that season. I think he scores better goals than Rooney but would Rooney have been successful in other countries and other leagues? I do not know. Zlatan's ability to play in any league to me makes him the better player. He has proved it all over the World while Rooney has not.
In the rest of the World Zlatan is more popular and well known that Rooney.

 

[devilish]

the point is rooney is overrated..
if compare any famous player and Rooney,who has better career,i will choose the other guy,not Rooney.

Some people underestimate how lucky Rooney was. He spent most of his career with the most successful club in England who was under the management of a living legend. To put things into context, Liverpool’s legend Michael Owen, Arsenal’s legend RVP and Spur’s legend Teddy Sheringham were willing to shite on their legacy at their respective clubs to join us. That’s how big United were under SAF.

In contrast Ibra had to leave his own country at age 20 and then move again from Ajax as that was the only way to play with a big club. Once he settled down at Juventus, they were rocked by a massive scandal which forced him to leave again. Since then he moved to circus acts such as Inter, AC Milan and PSG were time and time again he proved himself despite the infrastructure there (presidents really) were a laughing stock. Apart from United the only proper club he played for happened to have a manager who didn’t want him in the first place.

Don’t take me wrong, Ibra is a complex character with a big mouth. His relationship with Mino Raiola meant that Ibra will hop from one club to another at a regular rate. Having said that, his commitment, his class and his professionalism were never put in doubt anywhere. Last summer big AC Milan, Manchester United and Inter were fighting off for his signature. Rooney on the other hand is finished at top level and that despite being way younger then Ibra is.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Do you think that a striker who scored 22 goals and produced 12 assists out of 46 games despite playing out of position is a hindrance? Really?

I am not protecting Ibra about anything. He's a complex man similar to Cantona. He was unlucky too. Inter and Milan were a circus act, Pep never liked him and the only proper club he played for ended up in the Serie B following a big scandal. Its a shame that he had never worked with SAF. I am sure that the two would have done wonders together and his career would have been different to what it is now.

Having said that, anyone who worked with Ibra will tell you the same thing over and over again. He's a magnificent talent, he's a winner and he's a professional on and off the pitch. The very fact that he still produces great football at age 37 shows that. You won't find 1 photo of a wasted Ibra around. At age 32 Ibra was the best player at PSG carrying his team to success. Even at his age theres big club like United, AC Milan and Inter who want him which kind of shows how insanely good and professional Ibra is. Where's Rooney now?

He's an arrogant, self entitled douchebag with a messiah complex. Nothing complex about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Zlatan, but he's a raving lunatic who has amazing skills with a football.

 

[GM K]

Mate I live in Barcelona and even here they don't regard Zlatan as any footballing icon. Most here just regard him as a very good but highly overrated footballer. And I'm pretty sure anyone in England who's labeling Zlatan as a bigger icon than Rooney is just doing it out of spite because they dislike the man. In Italy Zlatan will probably be considered better.

But this is a subjective discussion as to who's the bigger icon and we could argue about it but I doubt we'll reach any consensus. So let's leave it at that.

Fair conclusion.

 

[GM K]

We agreed to disagree, but I wept as I read this

Eyaaa, sorry you wept mate. Cheer up.

 

[breakout67]

Zlatan IMO.

The fact that Rooney was finished as a top player by 30 makes Zlatan's career better. Add to this Zlatan's performances in an inferior national team and the case is closed.

The only thing Rooney has over Zlatan is the CL, but that can be attributed to the fact that Zlatan only had one realistic opportunity to win it (with Barca) whereas Rooney had multiple opportunities.

 

[glazed]

He's an arrogant, self entitled douchebag with a messiah complex. Nothing complex about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Zlatan, but he's a raving lunatic who has amazing skills with a football.

He must have looked after himself in an extremely focused way to have maintained himself at this level for so long. So I don't think self-entitled is fair. Nor am I aware of anything he's done to make him a douchebag.

 

[Mike09]

Zlatan has more career titles than Rooney. He just doesn't have a CL.

Too bad majority of those career titles are below EPL's level.

Zlatan is ahead of Rooney in term of longevity. Zlatan after 30s is just incredible.