Lionel Messi

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Treble

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Fortitude said:
I don't know what you mean with the first paragraph. "Platini is Zidane level." Zidane level at what?

Also, in terms of technique, what do you think seperates Zidane from Messi?

Your second paragraph is hyperbolic. Those aren't the only 3 players who had technique on par with Messi.

Ronaldinho, Zico, Magico Gonzalez, Platini (his passing is equivocal to Messi's dribbling, his free kicks were on par with any great who has played. His ability to trap a ball is on par as was his finishing and overall shooting technique) all come to mind immediately and if I gave it some thought there would be others.

This 'Messi, Maradona & Pele' only thing is a fallacy. There have been great players who are now looked upon in a different light because they didn't win the world cup. Zico is one such player, Platini is another. Prior to WC '86 it was pretty much a 3-way tie between those two and Maradona if one of the other two had won the WC and Maradona did not, they would have claimed the lion's share of the praise that is now reserved for Maradona. There's very little that seperates them on the field outside of Maradona's ability to dribble to such a standard and carry the ball on lengthy runs as well as his charisma and will to win. As number ten's all 3 of them were phenomenal players - there's no chasm between them and where Zico and Platini could not dribble as well as Messi, they had the passing and free kick ability he does not (to the same degree).
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Tend to agree with that. The question is whether it was down to chance that Argentina won the tournament and not France or Brazil. One could argue that both France and Brazi had better teams than Argentina. The fact that exactly Argentina won with Maradona scoring some of the greatest WC goals ever (one of the goals vs Belgium was fantastic, too) elevated Maradona above Platini and Zico, and fully deservedly IMO.
 

Fortitude

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Treble said:
Tend to agree with that. The question is whether it was down to chance that Argentina won the tournament and not France or Brazil. One could argue that both France and Brazi had better teams than Argentina. The fact that exactly Argentina won with Maradona scoring some of the greatest WC goals ever (one of the goals vs Belgium was fantastic, too) elevated Maradona above Platini and Zico, and fully deservedly IMO.
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Maradona's will to win and force of personality.. and his desire to do anything (H.O.G) to win really seperate him from the other two, imo. Zico was notoriously fragile, and was probably more wary of injuring himself because of it. He could go on amazing runs himself, but he wasn't prepared to take the knocks Maradona would and Platini was a fairy in terms of bravery on the pitch, so it wouldn't surprise me if he held back for fear of being clattered.

You have to hand it to Maradona; he is one of the most ballsy talented players there has ever been. Proper lionheart on the pitch and every fibre of his being he could maximise on the pitch, he did. Don't know if you could say the same for the other two despite their ridiculous level of ability.

He definitely earned his spot above them, but it's interesting how with the passage of time, the other two are considered waysiders by some distance when that was never the case whilst they were all active. 1986 changed everything.
marcosdeto said:
non of them can compare to maradona, pele or distefano

zidane, platini, zico, ronaldinho are in a lower category
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Compare at what?
 

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Fortitude said:
Maradona's will to win and force of personality.. and his desire to do anything (H.O.G) to win really seperate him from the other two, imo. Zico was notoriously fragile, and was probably more wary of injuring himself because of it. He could go on amazing runs himself, but he wasn't prepared to take the knocks Maradona would and Platini was a fairy in terms of bravery on the pitch, so it wouldn't surprise me if he held back for fear of being clattered.

You have to hand it to Maradona; he is one of the most ballsy talented players there has ever been. Proper lionheart on the pitch and every fibre of his being he could maximise on the pitch, he did. Don't know if you could say the same for the other two despite their ridiculous level of ability.

He definitely earned his spot above them, but it's interesting how with the passage of time, the other two are considered waysiders by some distance when that was never the case whilst they were all active. 1986 changed everything.


Compare at what?
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Agree with this.

Maradona was a firestorm who played as if he had no talent but was trying his damnedest to make up for it with effort and heart.

I really can't same the same for any other player ever.
 

Eriku

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Danny1982 said:
Of course, and to your surprise, I have.. However, that's not the point. I was talking about a specific clip which somebody posted here as a "proof" that Maradona's passing is way better than Messi's. I was merely pointing out the fact (or the opinion) that the ones shown in THAT clip are not out of Messi's league..
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Just going to have to chalk it down to a difference of fact/opinion, then... I consider Maradona's passing a notch above that of Messi's *shrug*
 

Eriku

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Fortitude said:
Maradona's will to win and force of personality.. and his desire to do anything (H.O.G) to win really seperate him from the other two, imo. Zico was notoriously fragile, and was probably more wary of injuring himself because of it. He could go on amazing runs himself, but he wasn't prepared to take the knocks Maradona would and Platini was a fairy in terms of bravery on the pitch, so it wouldn't surprise me if he held back for fear of being clattered.

You have to hand it to Maradona; he is one of the most ballsy talented players there has ever been. Proper lionheart on the pitch and every fibre of his being he could maximise on the pitch, he did. Don't know if you could say the same for the other two despite their ridiculous level of ability.
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Just to add to that a point that I read in the Burns (I believe) biography of Maradona; the notorious Goikotchea (sp?) tackle that screwed up his ankle meant that he had to have a pin inserted into that absurdly talented left peg of his... After that it tended to swell up to about two sizes over his actual shoe size, and he still played like a frickin' God.

Messi does too, for the record... And if he keeps growing I'll be questioning my Maradona for Prez stance.
 

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He was brilliant again last night. He has been slightly off form lately, however this was Messi back to his very best again.
 

Brwned

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He's still making the difference but he was far from his best last night I thought. That run last night was similar-ish to this one he had earlier in the season:


Some stats:

Played 39, scored 38 and assisted 20 goals.

Skorenzy said:
All-time CL goals record excluding qualifying games :

Raúl - 71
van Nistelrooy - 56
Henry - 50
Shevchenko - 48
Inzaghi - 46
Messi - 44
Del Piero - 41
Drogba - 36
Morientes - 33
C. Ronaldo - 31

(Rooney has 27)
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FCBarca said:
Somewhere out there is Ruud Gullit's reaction to that play, it's pretty amusing

Two new CL records for Messi to add to the tally:

  1. Most goals in Champions League knockout stages ever - 19 of them. Raul had the record at 18, along with another player or two...The record is now with Leo
  2. Most away goals in a Champions League season - 7 of them...He's level with a few other players: Henry, Crespo and Litmanen...If Barça can make it to the next round Messi will get a shot at an 8th away goal to own this record, as well

Messi, 24 years old
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Skorenzy said:
So far, Messi has averaged 9 Champions League goals per season in 4 seasons under Guardiola.

The 2nd highest average in the corresponding period is Mario Gómez with 5.33 CL goals per season.
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Skorenzy said:
That's an interesting one, indeed all his CL goals this seasons have been away from home (7 out of 7)... compared to his league form (4 out of 23) that is a massive discrepancy and quite telling of Barcelona's problems this season.

He's also the first player ever to score in 6 consecutive away CL games (resp. v Shakhtar, Real Madrid, BATE, Viktoria Plzen, AC Milan and Bayer Leverkusen)
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Zen

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Rooney was randomly fifth in that knockout phase goal list, bit surprised by that one....although more surprised by the lack of consistent knockout goalscorers really.

Like 10 of Rooneys have come against Milan and Roma too...then 1 vs Barca/Bayern/Chelsea/Schalke I think. Man why I do I remember that shit, probably because he went years without scoring -_-
 

KM

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He'll break all records and make those which won't be broken by anyone when he retires.
 

davisjw

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Hasn't he scored or assisted in almost 50% of Barca's goals? That's incredible.
 

Brwned

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Danny1982 said:
If only he can pass... :(
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He's been gradually improving his passing in the last 18 months, don't you think? The kind of passing in the last two months is something I don't think we'd have seen two years ago...and we've seen how it's added a new dimension to his game. His playmaking's gotten better as his finishing's gotten worse in recent weeks.

FranklyVulgar said:
To think this is him not at his best. He should have scored at least a couple in this game but his assist was certainly note worthy.
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The first leg of that game was the worst I've seen him this season and even then he still created two of the best chances of the game (Pique's header and Tello's 1v1). Still, I would like to see him get a rest. He's still brilliant but he looks so lethargic sometimes.
 

Danny1982

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Brwned said:
He's been gradually improving his passing in the last 18 months, don't you think? The kind of passing in the last two months is something I don't think we'd have seen two years ago...and we've seen how it's added a new dimension to his game. His playmaking's gotten better as his finishing's gotten worse in recent weeks.
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That's pretty much what I was saying here..

Danny1982 said:
Here is a sample of Messi's passing from more than 2 years ago, when Messi was still not really known for his passing.. His passing has improved significantly since then..

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Also, I think he has been a bit unlucky with his finishing in recent weeks.. The one that hit the post yesterday would have gone in a couple of months ago.. We'll look at his goal tally at the end of the season and judge his finishing by then..
 

FranklyVulgar

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Brwned said:
He's been gradually improving his passing in the last 18 months, don't you think? The kind of passing in the last two months is something I don't think we'd have seen two years ago...and we've seen how it's added a new dimension to his game. His playmaking's gotten better as his finishing's gotten worse in recent weeks.



The first leg of that game was the worst I've seen him this season and even then he still created two of the best chances of the game (Pique's header and Tello's 1v1). Still, I would like to see him get a rest. He's still brilliant but he looks so lethargic sometimes.
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His passing has always been very good in my opinion, in terms of playing the right pass or attempting to slot players in but it hasnt always been as accurate. It's probably the only aspect that can make him an even more effective player.

I agree, he hasn't been finishing chances you would usually bank on him finishing but still, if he isnt scoring he's setting up and if he isn't creating he's scoring.

He does need a rest though, which i think he'll get since they have basically conceded the league to Madrid.
 

Cal?

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FranklyVulgar said:
His passing has always been very good in my opinion, in terms of playing the right pass or attempting to slot players in but it hasnt always been as accurate. It's probably the only aspect that can make him an even more effective player.
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:lol: Only aspect... :lol:

How about improving on his atrocious penalty taking record?
 

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The kid's not had a rest in what, 3 years? Copa America, World cup, 50+ games each season... it takes it's toll. It's amazing how he's managed to do it for so long.

Now that Madrid have La Liga sewn up I'd just wrap him up in cotton wool and just play him for Copa Del Ray and Champions League games
 
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