Phil Jones

[Theon]

If Centreback is going to be his position he's got a hell of a lot to learn and fast.

Vidic (3 years at least), Ferdinand (1 year) Evans (8 years?) Smalling (10 years+) all ahead of him. Both Evans and Smalling are light years ahead of him in terms of technical ability and the mental aspect of defending.

Now that the initial buzz surrounding him has settled and his honeymoon period is over we are left looking at a youngster who is realistically 2 or 3 seasons away from being a polished player. The problem he has is that the players in his position now are also young and will also get better. He's very much going to be the new O'Shea IMO.

The bolded part is just ridiculous, he is far more talented than O'Shea and will become a much better player. People were calling him the next Duncan Edwards six months ago, now it's the next O'Shea..

Evans and Smalling are not light years ahead of him in terms of technical ability at all. They are probably both better, but there isn't much in it. What technical aspects of the game do you consider them to be light years ahead? Jones is better at running with the ball than either, probably a better crosser and has a better pass success rate than Smalling. So where is he technically light years behind?

You are right on the mental aspects of defending though, he really is light years behind in terms of positioning and reading the game at centre back, which is why I think he will play in midfield.

He isn't three years away from being a polished player either. For the first half of the season he was excellent, he dipped in the second half but overall it was a good debut season. By the end of next season I think he will have come on hugely and be as comparable to Smalling and Evans, with further potential to improve. He has four seasons before reaching Evans age and from 19-23 is when a player really develops, so if he didn't reach and surpass his standard I would be very surprised.

He is being underrated massively by some in this thread.

 

[KingEric7]

I think the question that post stirs up is whether Jones is a more talented youngster than O'Shea was.

 

[Pexbo]

The bolded part is just ridiculous, he is far more talented than O'Shea and will become a much better player. People were calling him the next Duncan Edwards six months ago, now it's the next O'Shea..

Evans and Smalling are not light years ahead of him in terms of technical ability at all. They are probably both better, but there isn't much in it. What technical aspects of the game do you consider them to be light years ahead? Jones is better at running with the ball than either, probably a better crosser and has a better pass success rate than Smalling. So where is he technically light years behind?

You are right on the mental aspects of defending though, he really is light years behind in terms of positioning and reading the game at centre back, which is why I think he will play in midfield.

He isn't three years away from being a polished player either. For the first half of the season he was excellent, he dipped in the second half but overall it was a good debut season. By the end of next season I think he will have come on hugely and be as comparable to Smalling and Evans, with further potential to improve. He has four seasons before reaching Evans age and from 19-23 is when a player really develops, so if he didn't reach and surpass his standard I would be very surprised.

He is being underrated massively by some in this thread.

Do you remember O'Shea's debut season at left back? More exciting and showed more promise than Jones in his last season.

Oh and for the record you are over rating Jones' current ability massively. He has the potential, I'm not disputing that but he has a long way to go. If it was a foreign lad he'd be called all sorts of shit. He's just a blood and thunder young English player so people love him and over rate him. That's coming from an Englishman.

 

[Theon]

Do you remember O'Shea's debut season at left back? More exciting and showed more promise than Jones in his last season.

Oh and for the record you are over rating Jones' current ability massively. He has the potential, I'm not disputing that but he has a long way to go. If it was a foreign lad he'd be called all sorts of shit. He's just a blood and thunder young English player so people love him and over rate him. That's coming from an Englishman.

Well we obviously disagree on how good he is, as I'm not over rating him at all.

You're quite blatantly under rating him saying he is light years behind Smalling and Evans technically, despite still not explaining what these outrageous deficiencies are.

Calling him 'just a blood and thunder young English player' is, again, ridiculous. He is obviously much more than that and has proved it in the first half of the season.

 

[Cheesy]

I have to agree with a lot of what Theon is saying here. I don't think he's years away from being a good player either, because most of the problems in his game are things like positioning errors and not being able to read the game well tactically, all of which will soon improve over time if he gets playing time and becomes more experienced, which he will.

I think a lot of his defensive game is there already. He's already quite physical and can generally tackle well. It's not like Evans who really looked like a poor all-round defender for a couple of seasons, until this year. He looks like he will be a top defender, but just needs to improve certain aspects of his game.

 

[Pexbo]

Well we obviously disagree on how good he is, as I'm not over rating him at all.

You're quite blatantly under rating him saying he is light years behind Smalling and Evans technically, despite still not explaining what these outrageous deficiencies are.

Calling him 'just a blood and thunder young English player' is, again, ridiculous. He is obviously much more than that and has proved it in the first half of the season.

Not explaining the deficiencies? Have you even read my posts?

I disagree, at 19 Evans was much much better. Evans is now 5 years on and I'll admit he isn't as good as the promise at 19 suggested he would be, he is still a long way ahead of Jones.


Jones has made a reputation here from his charging runs and his 110% attitude. If you assess his actual defensive attributes they don't read well:

Tackling: Rash, sometimes very good.
Positioning: Atrocious
Heading: Not good enough
Reading of play: Not good enough
Composure: Erratic
Decision Making: Equally erratic


Like I said, he's got all the physical and some of the technical attributes to be a great footballer, along with the attitude but he really has a long way to go before he can be trusted as a defender.

I'd say that's a pretty fair summary of his deficiencies, I'd be interested if anyone else disagreed with that summary.

 

[KingEric7]

I have to agree with a lot of what Theon is saying here. I don't think he's years away from being a good player either, because most of the problems in his game are things like positioning errors and not being able to read the game well tactically, all of which will soon improve over time if he gets playing time and becomes more experienced, which he will.

I think a lot of his defensive game is there already. He's already quite physical and can generally tackle well. It's not like Evans who really looked like a poor all-round defender for a couple of seasons, until this year. He looks like he will be a top defender, but just needs to improve certain aspects of his game.

This is so wrong! I know being a football fan is often about having an opinion, but how can you possibly justify this?

Evans had had a single below par season. Just one. There's absolutely no way he has looked a poor all-round defender at any other point. Not a chance. Did you watch him for Sunderland? Was he poor for us throughout 08/09? Really sorry, I'm trying to disagree without coming off as rude or judgemental, but there is no way that Evans ahas looked like a poor defender apart from this year. That flies in the face of some fantastic form in his younger years whereby he looked miles ahead in terms of his development.

 

[Cheesy]

This is so wrong! I know being a football fan is often about having an opinion, but how can you possibly justify this?

Don't try to act like we all thought he was brilliant. He was generally very poor for a lot of the 2010/2011 season and wasn't exactly brilliant in the 2009/2010 season either. I didn't completely condemn him or write him off, but many did. It's only this season where he has changed that perception. Let's not forget what was said previously about him, and how he performed back then. How would you have rated him in the 2010/2011 season, out of interest?

 

[Theon]

Errr, no. Technical deficiencies Pexbo.

You said,

Both Evans and Smalling are light years ahead of him in terms of technical ability and the mental aspect of defending.

I said,

Evans and Smalling are not light years ahead of him in terms of technical ability at all. They are probably both better, but there isn't much in it. What technical aspects of the game do you consider them to be light years ahead? Jones is better at running with the ball than either, probably a better crosser and has a better pass success rate than Smalling. So where is he technically light years behind?

You are right on the mental aspects of defending though, he really is light years behind in terms of positioning and reading the game at centre back, which is why I think he will play in midfield.

So I agreed with the mental aspects of defending and disagreed with these apparent technical deficiencies.

The last I checked,

Positioning: Atrocious
Reading of play: Not good enough
Composure: Erratic
Decision Making: Equally erratic

are nothing to do with technique. So you haven't answered the question. Where is he worse technically? His tackling is excellent, so you can count that one off. So the only technical deficiency of your list is heading... Right.

 

[Theon]

Don't try to act like we all thought he was brilliant. He was generally very poor for a lot of the 2010/2011 season and wasn't exactly brilliant in the 2009/2010 season either. I didn't completely condemn him or write him off, but many did. It's only this season where he has changed that perception. Let's not forget what was said previously about him, and how he performed back then. How would you have rated him in the 2010/2011 season, out of interest?

Completely true. It really is ridiculous.

Jones was the next Duncan Edwards, now he is the next O'Shea. Last year Evans was completely awful and should be sold, now he is fantastic again. Cleverley was hailed as the fecking second coming at the start of the season, based on four games.

 

[KingEric7]

Don't try to act like we all thought he was brilliant. He was generally very poor for a lot of the 2010/2011 season and wasn't exactly brilliant in the 2009/2010 season either. I didn't completely condemn him or write him off, but many did. It's only this season where he has changed that perception. Let's not forget what was said previously about him, and how he performed back then. How would you have rated him in the 2010/2011 season, out of interest?

Ey? I'm not talking about anyone else's opinions other than my own, but I can guarantee if you dig the threads up on here from a few seasons back, they'll be raving about the ability and potential of Evans. I remember following his Sunderland loan spells on here, and was waxing lyrical about him with everyone else throughout 08/09.

His 10/11 season was poor, no doubt. I've admitted that already, and felt during that season that he may fail to recover (he's shown remarkable mental strength come back from that amidst the signing of Smalling and a resurgent Ferdinand). In every other season he has shown himself to be an exceptionally talented defensive youngster. Poor Evans...he really can't shake that one season from people's perceptions.

 

[Theon]

Ey? I'm not talking about anyone else's opinions other than my own, but I can guarantee if you dig the threads up on here from a few seasons back, they'll be raving about the ability and potential of Evans. I remember following his Sunderland loan spells on here, and was waxing lyrical about him with everyone else throughout 08/09.

His 10/11 season was poor, no doubt. I've admitted that already, and felt during that season that he may fail to recover (he's shown remarkable mental strength come back from that amidst the signing of Smalling and a resurgent Ferdinand). In every other season he has shown himself to be an exceptionally talented defensive youngster. Poor Evans...he really can't shake that one season from people's perceptions.

That isn't what Cheesy is saying, he knows he is a good player. His point is that knee jerk posters would have said he was shit last year, but now he is amazing.

 

[KingEric7]

I see. This, originally, is what I was responding to:

"It's not like Evans who really looked like a poor all-round defender for a couple of seasons, until this year."

If this is to be interpreted that, until this year, Evans looked like a poor all-round defender, then this is not true at all. For clarification, here are a few posts from 2009 - before said seasons:

How good can this guy become?

I mean he's only 21 and when he plays he seems to go under the radar slightly because he goes about what is needed doing quite well. Obviously he's made and will make a few mistakes in his youth but I think the fact that some of his performances are so low key are a testament to his ability. I mean I know there have also been performances that have gotten him noticed like vs Inter and Chelsea, but he just reads the game so well for someone his age that it's hard to notice the work he does. I know he's going to be good, for me it's just a question of how good.

Can he be better than Rio? How good was Rio at 21? I was old enough to remember but sadly do not actually remember because I am a bit of a spazzer. Is the shared opinion on here that he can become a World Class centre-back for years to come or is the jury still out? What do opposition fans think of him as well?

i think lack of pace/turning circle as wide as a oil tanker will stop him from being as good as ferdinand. however i can see him anchoring our backline for a good 5-6 years, partnered next to someone who is a bit quicker.

At 21 Leeds broke the British transfer record to sign Ferdinand. Evans is an outstanding player though, I have no worries when he steps in for Ferdinand or Vidic.

Evans improvement has been incredible over the last couple of seasons. He certainly has the potential to be as good as RIo though there is something that Evans will never have - Rio's pace.

however, there may also be other aspects which Evans may develop better than Rio, like concentration for example.

Evans seems to have better concentration for his age than Rio and seems to be far more consistent, from what I remember Rio wasn't this consistent. Though as a raw defender Rio slightly edged it over Evans, when he was younger.

Out of all the young players, he's the most likely to 'make it'. He's great cover for Rio or Vidic.

Evans did not look like a poor all-round defender before this year. He had an off patch but, with the exception of that spell, has always looked an excellent defender. If I have misinterpreted this and you meant just those two seasons, I apologise, though I would still disagree and say that he has only had one really poor season.

I do remember people turning on Evans, but I think the concerns were warranted at one point. His talent was never in question, but his physique and confidence...that was the issue. The defensive side of his game in terms of his technical facets is and always has been very good on paper, really.

 

[Dion]

I think Evans' technique is vastly underrated, his touch and passing are much more reliable than Jones' currently. The dribbling and crossing are more down to pace than technique, that and I don't think I've ever seen Evans cross the ball...

 

[Pexbo]

are nothing to do with technique. So you haven't answered the question. Where is he worse technically? His tackling is excellent, so you can count that one off. So the only technical deficiency of your list is heading... Right.

His tackling can be excellent, but it's because he tackles hard it gives the impression it's better than it is. He's naive in a lot of his challenges and commits too much leaving him often off balance and behind play. Compare it to Vidic, Ferdinand and Evans, they all have the ability to hold the player off and tackle on their feet, something I can't even remember seeing Jones do once so I can't comment on how good he is at it. Being a central defender isn't about slide tackling, the majority of tackles should be made without going to ground.

His heading needs great work, he's a big lad and doesn't challenge nearly enough in the air both in out box and their box.

His touch needs improving and he is sluggish when in possession. When he gets going he is like a steam train and hard to stop but he generally knocks it that little bit too far each time to be properly in control and able to change option at any time which leads him down too many blind alleys and often stretching for the ball which sees him taking a knock from his opposition.


If you compare Evans carrying the ball out of defence to Jones, Evans does it at a canter with his head up assessing his options. Jones gets his head down and charges it out. It's exciting, but he very rarely picks the right pass from it because he's never properly in control of it.



Like I have been saying all along though, there is a Footballer in there, no doubt whatsoever. I just don't think there is a centreback that will be able to dislodge Evans who is 24 and showing all the signs of maturing into a top player much like Fletcher did at the same age and there is Smalling who has quality oozing out of every pore and looks like he started playing centreback in his mothers womb. Not to mention Vidic who will be good for a good 3 seasons yet and Ferdinand a season or two. That's two spots to be competed for by 5 players over the next two seasons and Jones is at the bottom of the pile.

If Rafael stays fit and makes that right back spot his own, Jones is going to be struggling to hold down a spot and Fergie who clearly rates him will be looking towards midfield.

 

[Theon]

I think Evans' technique is vastly underrated, his touch and passing are much more reliable than Jones' currently. The dribbling and crossing are more down to pace than technique, that and I don't think I've ever seen Evans cross the ball...

Running with the ball is technique, it doesn't matter if a player utilises pace, it is still a technical skill. Smalling is better in the air, but that is mainly down to height, doesn't change the fact it is a technical skill.

I agree with Evans having a better touch and being a better passer, I said so in my post that they were better. But they are certainly not light years ahead, Smalling especially isn't much better technically, if at all.

 

[Dion]

The point is it's very difficult to dribble if you don't have good pace, especially in the first few yards (Evans main weakness), where as Jones doesn't have this problem. What makes Jones a better dribbler is the pace he runs with the ball at, it's not that Evans can't control the ball at that pace, it's that he can't get to them in the first place.

 

[Pexbo]

Smalling especially isn't much better technically, if at all.

Really? Do you actually believe that? Smalling is technically brilliant as a centreback. Great heading, great touch, great in the tackle and a very composed passer. His pace is also deceptive, I had him down as slow til I saw him go up against Bale and match him over 30 yards against Tottenham at Old Trafford at the start of the season.

 

[Theon]

His tackling can be excellent, but it's because he tackles hard it gives the impression it's better than it is. He's naive in a lot of his challenges and commits too much leaving him often off balance and behind play. Compare it to Vidic, Ferdinand and Evans, they all have the ability to hold the player off and tackle on their feet, something I can't even remember seeing Jones do once so I can't comment on how good he is at it. Being a central defender isn't about slide tackling, the majority of tackles should be made without going to ground.

His heading needs great work, he's a big lad and doesn't challenge nearly enough in the air both in out box and their box.

His touch needs improving and he is sluggish when in possession. When he gets going he is like a steam train and hard to stop but he generally knocks it that little bit too far each time to be properly in control and able to change option at any time which leads him down too many blind alleys and often stretching for the ball which sees him taking a knock from his opposition.

If you compare Evans carrying the ball out of defence to Jones, Evans does it at a canter with his head up assessing his options. Jones gets his head down and charges it out. It's exciting, but he very rarely picks the right pass from it because he's never properly in control of it.

Like I have been saying all along though, there is a Footballer in there, no doubt whatsoever. I just don't think there is a centreback that will be able to dislodge Evans who is 24 and showing all the signs of maturing into a top player much like Fletcher did at the same age and there is Smalling who has quality oozing out of every pore and looks like he started playing centreback in his mothers womb. Not to mention Vidic who will be good for a good 3 seasons yet and Ferdinand a season or two. That's two spots to be competed for by 5 players over the next two seasons and Jones is at the bottom of the pile.

If Rafael stays fit and makes that right back spot his own, Jones is going to be struggling to hold down a spot and Fergie who clearly rates him will be looking towards midfield.

His tackling is excellent, it may be very hard but that isn't a bad thing. He is more of an aggressive player than Evans and Smalling, both in terms of closing down and tackling and consequently has over twice as many tackles per game than either of them.

He has no trouble winning the ball and doesn't even commit many fouls, both Evans and Smalling commit more, despite not winning the ball as much. I'm struggling to accept any criticism of his tackling, nothing wrong with it. Whether he dives in to much is a problem when he plays centre back, as he can leave his position, but if utilised properly in midfield he could be a fantastic ball winner.

Evans is more composed coming out of defence, but that isn't surprising really. Just look at the two players play football, Evans is calm throughout the game whilst Jones gets extremely riled up, dives into challenges and is far more aggresive. Constant composure will never be his thing unless he severely calms down in the next few years, but I don't see it as a huge issue and think it could take away from his game. When he gets more used to playing for the club and his confidence grows with a few more seasons, I have no doubt he'll be able to pick the right pass naturally and have better control. Remember, he is only 20 and has four seasons on Evans, which is an absolutely huge amount at this age.

I think he has the talent to become a starting centre back in the future, depending on how he applies himself in training, although to be honest Jones does not in the slightest striker me as a youngster who would skip on his training or waste his potential, like Morrison for example. He seems the polar opposite and very grounded.

However, on playing centre back, I just don't think he will play there as it takes too much away from his natural game. Why try and curb his tough tackling and dribbles forward? It's a desirable set of attributes and perfect for midfield, just not defence. By the end of next season with another years experience and training, I think he will have come on hugely as a player. He has all the determination in the world to succeed and is physically perfect for a midfielder, both quick and strong. His technical ability will improve with age and at only 20 he is in a period of rapid development.

 

[Theon]

Really? Do you actually believe that? Smalling is technically brilliant as a centreback. Great heading, great touch, great in the tackle and a very composed passer. His pace is also deceptive, I had him down as slow til I saw him go up against Bale and match him over 30 yards against Tottenham at Old Trafford at the start of the season.

Yes of course, I think it is very close with Smalling just ahead. It's a far more reasonable opinion that Smalling being technically 'light years' ahead anyway.

I agree with your summary of Smalling, but Jones wins more tackles and has a better pass success rate. So how he can be considered light years behind technically is beyond me. Smalling has a better touch and is a far more natural defender mentally i.e. anticipation, positioning, composure for example. But technically he is not far ahead in my opinion.

Why do you think he is?

 

[Pexbo]

His tackling is excellent, it may be very hard but that isn't a bad thing. He is more of an aggressive player than Evans and Smalling, both in terms of closing down and tackling and consequently has over twice as many tackles per game than either of them.

He has no trouble winning the ball and doesn't even commit many fouls, both Evans and Smalling commit more, despite not winning the ball as much. I'm struggling to accept any criticism of his tackling, nothing wrong with it. Whether he dives in to much is a problem when he plays centre back, as he can leave his position, but if utilised properly in midfield he could be a fantastic ball winner.

Evans is more composed coming out of defence, but that isn't surprising really. Just look at the two players play football, Evans is calm throughout the game whilst Jones gets extremely riled up, dives into challenges and is far more aggresive. Constant composure will never be his thing unless he severely calms down in the next few years, but I don't see it as a huge issue and think it could take away from his game. When he gets more used to playing for the club and his confidence grows with a few more seasons, I have no doubt he'll be able to pick the right pass naturally and have better control. Remember, he is only 20 and has four seasons on Evans, which is an absolutely huge amount at this age.

I think he has the talent to become a starting centre back in the future, depending on how he applies himself in training, although to be honest Jones does not in the slightest striker me as a youngster who would skip on his training or waste his potential, like Morrison for example. He seems the polar opposite and very grounded.

However, on playing centre back, I just don't think he will play there as it takes too much away from his natural game. Why try and curb his tough tackling and dribbles forward? It's a desirable set of attributes and perfect for midfield, just not defence. By the end of next season with another years experience and training, I think he will have come on hugely as a player. He has all the determination in the world to succeed and is physically perfect for a midfielder, both quick and strong. His technical ability will improve with age and at only 20 he is in a period of rapid development.

So all in all you agree with me that he is a talented footballer, he just isn't cut out to be a centre back....

I want to see him played ahead of the defence in midfield, forced to work on his positional sense alongside Carrick. If he's to learn about positioning around Zone 5 and Zone 8 he won't find better tutors than Carrick and Fletcher. Both their off the ball work in those areas is fantastic.

 

[Theon]

No Pexbo, we quite blatantly haven't agreed unless you have altered your opinion. I have always said Jones should be a midfielder, check my posts in the thread.

What I disagreed with is your claims he is the 'new O'Shea' and that he is 'technically light years behind Smalling and Evans'. If you still agree with that, then I still find those opinions ridiculous.

 

[gooDevil]

I'd say that Jones is well behind Smalling and Evans in the techniques of playing center back, and Jones is well ahead of those two in midfield technique.

 

[Theon]

I'd say that Jones is well behind Smalling and Evans in the techniques of playing center back, and Jones is well ahead of those two in midfield technique.

Yeah I agree, but I think those techniques for playing centre back are mainly mental. Reading the game well, knowing when to close down and when to stand off, anticipation, positioning, having composure in defence etc.

I think in terms of actual ball skills then Jones is still behind, but nowhere near the extent that Pexbo said. Evans is the best on the ball, then I don't see much between Smalling and Jones, probably Jones is slightly behind. But he is better at running with it, better crosser and just as good a passer, he has a higher % rate for example. Smalling has a better touch though.

Not much in it really. But yeah, I agree with you though that he is far behind the other two in techniques of being a centre back.

 

[roseguy64]

Don't try to act like we all thought he was brilliant. He was generally very poor for a lot of the 2010/2011 season and wasn't exactly brilliant in the 2009/2010 season either. I didn't completely condemn him or write him off, but many did. It's only this season where he has changed that perception. Let's not forget what was said previously about him, and how he performed back then. How would you have rated him in the 2010/2011 season, out of interest?

Rubbish. He started 2010/2011 as first choice due to various factors IIRC. There wasn't much disagreement with this because he'd done well the previous season. Your memory needs sorting out. Sure he's not always had great games as he was younger and inconsistency and mistakes cropped up but fans I talked to around the time we let Pique go weren't worried as we had Evans. Must have done well overall for people to be thinking that.

 

[roseguy64]

Really? Do you actually believe that? Smalling is technically brilliant as a centreback. Great heading, great touch, great in the tackle and a very composed passer. His pace is also deceptive, I had him down as slow til I saw him go up against Bale and match him over 30 yards against Tottenham at Old Trafford at the start of the season.

I'd have to disagree only on Smalling's touch. It's 50/50 what you get out of him. Far too often I've seen him fail to control balls amateurs should.

 

[TomClare]

So all in all you agree with me that he is a talented footballer, he just isn't cut out to be a centre back....

I want to see him played ahead of the defence in midfield, forced to work on his positional sense alongside Carrick. If he's to learn about positioning around Zone 5 and Zone 8 he won't find better tutors than Carrick and Fletcher. Both their off the ball work in those areas is fantastic.

I agree with you that he should be played in midfield - that to me is his best position and one which I think he will eventually settle into. He's had an up and down season so far, but he's been played in a variety of positions with no real settled run in any one of them - plus the fact that he's had a few niggling injuries to contend with.

As far as his qualities go I think that you are not only being harsh on the lad, but are also so wide of the mark about him. You are expressing your own opinion and judgement of him which you are perfectly entitled to do -:

"Jones has made a reputation here from his charging runs and his 110% attitude. If you assess his actual defensive attributes they don't read well:

Tackling: Rash, sometimes very good.
Positioning: Atrocious
Heading: Not good enough
Reading of play: Not good enough
Composure: Erratic
Decision Making: Equally erratic"

If he was as poor as you say he is in those departments he would certainly not be at Old Trafford nor would the club have paid what they did for him - and I would say that would also go for any other defender at senior level in the club. There are thousands who would vehemently disagree with your assessment.

The thing is, the people who see and work with him day in day out - the Manager, Coaches etc are the people whose opinions really matter and who are far more qualified to express them than you or I will ever be. I can assure you that he is rated by them as being exceptional and will get even better.

 

[Aint gota Kalou]

Really? Do you actually believe that? Smalling is technically brilliant as a centreback. Great heading, great touch, great in the tackle and a very composed passer. His pace is also deceptive, I had him down as slow til I saw him go up against Bale and match him over 30 yards against Tottenham at Old Trafford at the start of the season.

He's not technically better than Jones at all, it shows when he plays at full back. His touch is just as inconsistent and his passing isn't brilliant. More than good enough to play centre back of course but he's not any better than Jones with the ball at his feet. I'm a massive Smalling fan too, best youngster at United in my eyes.

I think he'll end up a centre back, he just needs to learn when to attack the ball and when to stand off. Smalling and Evans have already got this part of the game down which is why they're much better at the moment. Once Jones becomes more mature I hope that he'll learn the same thing.

 

[marjen]

At times I think to myself that his best position would be as a full back, at times I say to myself he's a midfielder in the making and sometimes I feel he'll become a towering centre back.

It's probably CB that's his position to be fair, he's just young and inexperienced. His decision-making and positioning will develop given time.

 

[Cheesy]

Rubbish. He started 2010/2011 as first choice due to various factors IIRC. There wasn't much disagreement with this because he'd done well the previous season. Your memory needs sorting out. Sure he's not always had great games as he was younger and inconsistency and mistakes cropped up but fans I talked to around the time we let Pique go weren't worried as we had Evans. Must have done well overall for people to be thinking that.

Cool then, must just be me imagining then, eh? It must be that Evans was absolutely brilliant in every season up until this one so that people were still saying he was a bad player at the start of this season. He did not have a good 09/10 season, and I can remember many people commenting on when he was paired with Brown and how poor they often looked together.

I do like Evans and think he's going to be a good defender for us, but I just think that some people on this forum massively overrate him and act like he's always been a good player for us. I've even seen people making serious comparisons between him and Pique as well, which is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Bross]

If you compare Evans carrying the ball out of defence to Jones, Evans does it at a canter with his head up assessing his options. Jones gets his head down and charges it out. It's exciting, but he very rarely picks the right pass from it because he's never properly in control of it.

This part is so, so true. Comparing Jones and Evans in these situations its obvious to me that Evans is better technically, and also importantly, more confident in his own technical ability.

 

[Tomuś]

I do like Evans and think he's going to be a good defender for us, but I just think that some people on this forum massively overrate him and act like he's always been a good player for us. I've even seen people making serious comparisons between him and Pique as well, which is beyond ridiculous.

Bar one season, yes, he's always been good for us. When he was 19/20 I had no problems or worries when Fergie announced he will play against Inter at San Siro. Since then, it hasn't been all rosy for him, but I believe he's got guts to learn from his mistakes and that one poor season. He is good enough to start for a title-challenging/winning team aand that's good enough for me for the time being.

He's still relatively young and can only get better.

 

[Pexbo]

I agree with you that he should be played in midfield - that to me is his best position and one which I think he will eventually settle into. He's had an up and down season so far, but he's been played in a variety of positions with no real settled run in any one of them - plus the fact that he's had a few niggling injuries to contend with.

As far as his qualities go I think that you are not only being harsh on the lad, but are also so wide of the mark about him. You are expressing your own opinion and judgement of him which you are perfectly entitled to do -:

"Jones has made a reputation here from his charging runs and his 110% attitude. If you assess his actual defensive attributes they don't read well:

Tackling: Rash, sometimes very good.
Positioning: Atrocious
Heading: Not good enough
Reading of play: Not good enough
Composure: Erratic
Decision Making: Equally erratic"

If he was as poor as you say he is in those departments he would certainly not be at Old Trafford nor would the club have paid what they did for him - and I would say that would also go for any other defender at senior level in the club. There are thousands who would vehemently disagree with your assessment.

Yeah I realise that is harsh on him but I should also make it clear that I'm assessing his ability not against any tom dick and harry (!*) but as a Manchester United player so it reads a lot harder than it should. Comparing him to your average young Premier League player then of course he isn't that bad.

What I am comparing him to is the target of reaching the ability Vidic and Ferdinand reached. That's the target of a United player and those two were a big part of winning us a European Cup. Now in comparing Jones to those two, and then comparing Evans to those to you can surely see why I have both rated him so harshly and feel that Evans is a lot closer to reaching that standard than he is.

The thought of Jones going up against Barcelona in central defence in a European Cup final terrifies me. Evans I would have an element of confidence in.

The thing is, the people who see and work with him day in day out - the Manager, Coaches etc are the people whose opinions really matter and who are far more qualified to express them than you or I will ever be. I can assure you that he is rated by them as being exceptional and will get even better.

I certainly don't dispute this though and have maintained throughout that I think he has the tools and attitude to be a wonderful footballer, I just don't think it will be in central defence or right back for that matter with Rafael ahead of him. I'd love to ask Ferguson off the record where he feels Jones will excel.


EDIT:
(!*)

Sorry Tom that was a poor choice of phrase!

 

[roseguy64]

Cool then, must just be me imagining then, eh? It must be that Evans was absolutely brilliant in every season up until this one so that people were still saying he was a bad player at the start of this season. He did not have a good 09/10 season, and I can remember many people commenting on when he was paired with Brown and how poor they often looked together.

I do like Evans and think he's going to be a good defender for us, but I just think that some people on this forum massively overrate him and act like he's always been a good player for us. I've even seen people making serious comparisons between him and Pique as well, which is beyond ridiculous.

Where did I say he was brilliant every season? He had more good performances than bad and merited his starts when he got them. Plus he was first choice at the start of last year wasn't he? Clearly that only happens if you have a poor season the year before as a young player since we just hand out starts willy-nilly.

But he has usually been a good player for us. If you're judging him against Vidic and Ferdinand earlier in his career then obviously you'll think he's poor. Just from my recollection he usually held his own and more often than not didn't look out of place when he slotted in. Also it's fair to compare him to Pique since when they were both here there wasn't much between them.

 

[Cheesy]

Where did I say he was brilliant every season? He had more good performances than bad and merited his starts when he got them. Plus he was first choice at the start of last year wasn't he? Clearly that only happens if you have a poor season the year before as a young player since we just hand out starts willy-nilly.

But he has usually been a good player for us. If you're judging him against Vidic and Ferdinand earlier in his career then obviously you'll think he's poor. Just from my recollection he usually held his own and more often than not didn't look out of place when he slotted in. Also it's fair to compare him to Pique since when they were both here there wasn't much between them.

The reason he was first choice at the start of last year, if it's the 2010/2011 season, was because Rio was still having a lot of injury problems, while Smalling was just here and hadn't really been tried yet. There was also Brown, but he had been equally as poor as Evans the year before that. He was largely there back then because we had no other option, not on merit really.

It may have been fine to compare Evans and Pique then when there was nothing between them, but not now. Pique has gone on to establish himself as one of the best defenders in the world. There's no comparison to be had. He's miles ahead of Evans.

 

[Tomuś]

The reason he was first choice at the start of last year, if it's the 2010/2011 season, was because Rio was still having a lot of injury problems, while Smalling was just here and hadn't really been tried yet. There was also Brown, but he had been equally as poor as Evans the year before that. He was largely there back then because we had no other option, not on merit really.

It may have been fine to compare Evans and Pique then when there was nothing between them, but not now. Pique has gone on to establish himself as one of the best defenders in the world. There's no comparison to be had. He's miles ahead of Evans.

Pique went back to the club where, let's be honest, centre-back position isn't clattered with applicants. Then bearing in mind he's already got the nod ahead of some random academy boys or back-up midfielders he established himself as a very good to one of the best. Obviously, if he wasn't good enough to have a go initially, they would look for some big name signing hence credit where it's due.

The thing is, he slotted right in and has had an opportunity to flourish over these 3/4 years, playing as a first teamer mostly.

Evans on the other hand has just had his first full season, by full I mean as a emergency starter due to Vidic's injury, and has already earned loud praises from people that know a great deal about football. Who is to say, that if he goes on to have 2/3 seasons more and with that status in the team, he won't reach Pique's heights? We just about missed on league title and that would be a great start to his proper career.

He's been hugely unfortunate with us living in clover as far as centre-back's department goes, while Pique had an upper-hand on him from the very beginning of his Barca's days.

 

[Cheesy]

Pique went back to the club where, let's be honest, centre-back position isn't clattered with applicants. Then bearing in mind he's already got the nod ahead of some random academy boys or back-up midfielders. Obviously, if he wasn't good enough to have a go initially, they would look for some big name signing hence credit where it's due.

The thing is, he slotted right in and has had an opportunity to flourish over these 3/4 years, playing as a first teamer mostly.

Evans on the other hand has just had his first full season, by full I mean as a emergency starter due to Vidic's injury, and has already earned loud praises from people that know a great deal about football. Who is to say, that if he goes on to have 2/3 seasons more and with that status in the team, he won't reach Pique's heights? We just about missed on league title and that would be a great start to his proper career.

He's been hugely unfortunate with us living in clover as far as centre-back's department goes, while Pique had an upper-hand on him from the very beginning of his Barca's days.

Pique may have had a great helping hand with his situation at Barcelona, but unless we're expecting Evans to become one of the best centre backs in the world, then I don't see him reaching the level of Pique. He'll be a very good centre back at his best, yes, but I don't see him being one of the very best in the world.

Most of your post is generally excuse making. Pique may have had an easier ride along, but the fact is that whatever way you look at it, he's still a much better defender than Evans.

 

[Tomuś]

Pique may have had a great helping hand with his situation at Barcelona, but unless we're expecting Evans to become one of the best centre backs in the world, then I don't see him reaching the level of Pique. He'll be a very good centre back at his best, yes, but I don't see him being one of the very best in the world.

Most of your post is generally excuse making. Pique may have had an easier ride along, but the fact is that whatever way you look at it, he's still a much better defender than Evans.

I have to agree partially, still Pique is being slightly over-rated I'm afraid. He is a great footballer but as a defender he isn't in the class of younger Rio, Vidic, Nesta.

I've seen Evans having tremendous games this season, not only in a strict defensive sense and I fell he can surpass your expectations of him.

 

[Cheesy]

I have to agree partially, still Pique is being slightly over-rated I'm afraid. He is a great footballer but as a defender he isn't in the class of younger Rio, Vidic, Nesta.

I've seen Evans having tremendous games this season, not only in a strict defensive sense and I fell he can surpass your expectations of him.

I'm not overrating him at all. When I say he's up there with the best in the world, I mean probably just in the top 5. He's not of the level of the players you mentioned, but he's still a top quality defender, and is much better than Evans nevertheless.

I don't deny that Evans has had a very good season, and I think he'll be a good player for us. It just stems back to my original point though on topic, that I expect Jones to be a better centre back than him when he reaches his prime and I expect Smalling and him to be our future partnership, with Evans maybe still here as backup, unless he's desperate to be a starter elsewhere, which would be fair enough I guess.

 

[Pexbo]

I have to agree partially, still Pique is being slightly over-rated I'm afraid. He is a great footballer but as a defender he isn't in the class of younger Rio, Vidic, Nesta.

I've seen Evans having tremendous games this season, not only in a strict defensive sense and I fell he can surpass your expectations of him.

In regards to Piqué, I always think he's a well above average defender but nowhere near world class with a lot of the attributes of a top midfielder without having the pace, engine or agility to be an actual top midfielder. As a result you have a player who would be an above average but not great defender or average midfielder at any other club in the world but in Barca's team fits like an octagon peg in an octagon hole.