(I'm actually not) Blaming Moyes for transfers

[Brwned]

There's a lot of talk about how Moyes' inability to find a player outside of his old club is a great disappointment, but realistically Moyes won't have been the one who identified any of our potential signings this summer nor does he have any input in the negotiations with the players we do attempt to sign. The people we're looking at signing are people we've scouted extensively while Sir Alex was here. Moyes may not be going after the same players but he'll still be picking names from the same list - he didn't create the list.

If you want to blame anyone for us being too "cautious" in the players we're looking at then blame Sir Alex. He's the one that decided on this strategy of mainly buying PL players with the occasional top foreign talent brought in along with that. Though I'm not sure why anyone would complain about a strategy that has saw us play great football and have plenty of success. It has nothing to do with our scouts not being able to recognise the talent of whatever player is the flavour of the month in the transfer forum. Nor does it have anything to do with Moyes not being able to recognise talent outside Britain. When Moyes was give time to identify the players he wanted at Everton he brought in the likes of Pienaar, Mirallas, Fellaini - 3 of their 4 first choice attackers - and Arteta to great success.

Sir Alex picked Moyes because he was the one to carry on doing things in the same way. That's all that's happening here. The manager, the scouts and the chief exec are all fulfilling their roles as normal in an organisational setup that was largely built by Sir Alex. If people need to vent their anger at someone because their "inner transfer muppet" hasn't been given the shiny new toy it desperately needs then aim it at Sir Alex rather than Moyes or the scouts. Or just take a reality check and remind yourself that Nani, Kagawa, Rooney, van Persie, Welbeck, Hernandez, Zaha and Januzaj are exciting enough as it is.

 

[RedSky]

Dave's shit at this transfer lark.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Blaming Moyes for transfers is clearly ridiculous - there haven't been any.

I do, however, blame him entirely for our total lack of transfers.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I think Woodward is coping a lot of flack deservedly.

Moyes, I don't think, has done anything wrong.

 

[Rory 7]

And how exactly does Brwned know all of this with such certainty?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It's impossible to know who is to blame for what, or if anyone is to blame for anything, without actually knowing for a fact what is going on inside the club. Personally, I would be looking at our scouts/Moyes' scouts then Moyes' himself, as it's their jobs to identify targets and identify the midfield version of Hernandez, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Smalling or Jones... or any version for that matter... but again, who know's what their recommendations/findings have been.

 

[moses]

And how exactly does Brwned know all of this with such certainty?

He doesn't but he has logic on his side.

 

[Striker10]

Woodward needs to up his game. I don't think it's wrong to go for the best but you have to be realistic. At the same time, Moyes has probably been impressed by some of the kids and rightly so. I don't think we're following the Sir Alex book on transfers. Sir Alex probably would go for experience - he was implying that before he retired. However, would he and Gill have gone for Fabregas after Thiagos been sold? Would Sir Alex have gone for Thiago? Who knows..

When you see someone like Adnan, would Sir Alex have given him a chance this season? It's hard to say. However, Moyes might be more inclined to giving him an opportunity as everyone knows it would win favour with the supporters and he appears to be ready

 

[shaggy]

Have hardly seen anyone blaming Moyes.

 

[Cina]

I agree with the overall theme here, I've said it before, but if anything our supposed "desperation" to signing a midfielder this Summer has been down to SAF being so stubborn for the last five years and leaving the midfield in the state it is, rather than Moyes inability to sign one, which is something you'd sort of expect seeing as he only started here in July.

he's left Moyes in a very difficult position with our midfield.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Controversial. Maybe rooney was right and fergie still looms large.

 

[Rory 7]

I don't see what the issue is. We'll make one or at most two signings before the window closes. Its obvious Moyes has a budget and is trying to stretch it with these low bids for Fellaini, Fabregas and Baines. This is all brinksmanship, there is a transfer merry go round this summer, everyone is waiting on one of the big ones to go through and then the whole set of dominoes will fall. The reality is, we are holding up all of that by not caving in on Rooney's demands. Things will be very different in the transfer market post United v Chelsea.

 

[Carl]

He doesn't but he has logic on his side.

Are you saying it's illogical to suggest Moyes had a few ideas of his own on players that he liked?

FWIW I don't "blame" Moyes either, but I also don't blame Fergie. It's the role of the Chief exec to explore if a player is available/interested and then conduct negotiations. If there is to be any blame apportioned at all then it really should lye with Woodward.

 

[RedSky]

He doesn't but he has logic on his side.

Disagree, he's being a condescending arse suggesting that anyone who wants a transfer is a muppet and a child. If he was using logic then he'd clearly know that our squad has issues and in football you simply cannot afford to stand still. You have to keep the squad evolving and you have to improve.

We can't even discuss blame until the window shuts. That's the logical answer to this thread.

 

[Jacob]

If you take over from Sir Alex, the first thing you do is not going on to sign a player you're not 100% sure of. I appreciate that he might be cautious.

 

[devilish]

There's a lot of talk about how Moyes' inability to find a player outside of his old club is a great disappointment, but realistically Moyes won't have been the one who identified any of our potential signings this summer nor does he have any input in the negotiations with the players we do attempt to sign. The people we're looking at signing are people we've scouted extensively while Sir Alex was here. Moyes may not be going after the same players but he'll still be picking names from the same list - he didn't create the list.

If you want to blame anyone for us being too "cautious" in the players we're looking at then blame Sir Alex. He's the one that decided on this strategy of mainly buying PL players with the occasional top foreign talent brought in along with that. Though I'm not sure why anyone would complain about a strategy that has saw us play great football and have plenty of success. It has nothing to do with our scouts not being able to recognise the talent of whatever player is the flavour of the month in the transfer forum. Nor does it have anything to do with Moyes not being able to recognise talent outside Britain. When Moyes was give time to identify the players he wanted at Everton he brought in the likes of Pienaar, Mirallas, Fellaini - 3 of their 4 first choice attackers - and Arteta to great success.

Sir Alex picked Moyes because he was the one to carry on doing things in the same way. That's all that's happening here. The manager, the scouts and the chief exec are all fulfilling their roles as normal in an organisational setup that was largely built by Sir Alex. If people need to vent their anger at someone because their "inner transfer muppet" hasn't been given the shiny new toy it desperately needs then aim it at Sir Alex rather than Moyes or the scouts. Or just take a reality check and remind yourself that Nani, Kagawa, Rooney, van Persie, Welbeck, Hernandez, Zaha and Januzaj are exciting enough as it is.

I am sure that it was SAF's dream to bring Felliani and Baines to the club. Considering SAF's generals in CM (Keane, Scholes, Veron, Carrick and Robson), Felliani fits exactly the type of midfielder SAF always wanted into the club.

 

[Mickeza]

I don't agree with the assertion that we're going after targets that were predetermined before Moyes arrived, I think Fellaini proves that isn't the case. We have the same midfield as last season and we didn't go for him then so why would SAF have gone for him this season? He's a Moyes target, I don't see how that can be argued against. However, I do agree with the general gist, our squad is very good and we'll be fine even if we don't sign anyone, although we probably will sign someone, maybe.

 

[Eyepopper]

It's embarrassing......... the way so many fans built themselves up to thinking we were going to go against what we've always done, and go out and spend about £150million on 4 world class players and when it doesn't happen they criticise the club and manager.

Obviously we need reinforcements, but its not a game of Fifa or FM.... spending 20,30,40 million and negotiating a contract, probably worth almost as much, with players, isn't straight forwards.

It amazes me the way some people think its just a matter of picking up the phone and offering 40m for someone like Fabregas, and thats it - done deal.

The whole topic and focus on transfers has become a sideshow, mainly designed to flog papers and advertising, and keep the soap opera thats sprung up around football moving. Unfortunately plenty of fans seem to enjoy it as much, if not more than the actual football. And thats before we get into the whole armchair manager phenomenon - lads sat at home, studying stats, who think they know something paid professionals dont.

 

[Stretch]

Brwned, you make some very valid points, however, as already stated you're also putting forth an opinion based on little facts like the rest of us. At least that's how I see it. I don't blame Moyes too much for this but I'm certainly doubtful about Woodward's negotiating tactics. Further to that, your analysis leaves out one important factor and that is that SAF told Moyes well before he was actually appointed that he'd be our new manager. If that was the case then I believe the club couldv'e ensured some of Moyes top targets (midfield as he himself put it) were locked down earlier than 1 July. But then again, what do we know. Just an opinion based on 'thin' facts.

 

[Agent Red]

I definitely don't blame Moyes for the lack of transfers this summer. He's new to the club, has never been that type of manager to go out and buy extravagently, and as you say, is picking up from where SAF left off.

What I do find a bit unusual was our change of approach in how we conducted ourselves in the earlier stages of the window. The announcements of Woodward jetting off for 'urgent transfer business' and a comparatively quite public pursuit of Fabregas, a player who was seemingly very settled at his boyhood club. It seemed like a concerted change of approach from the club, which is unusual if your transfer policy remains the same i.e. faith in youth and keeping an eye out for the odd exceptional talent becoming available. I'm not sure this approach really paid off for the club, it stoked up a lot of the fans and has now led to a sense of disappointment in some quarters, which may not have been there if we'd kept to our usual quiet approach.

 

[Eyepopper]

I am sure that it was SAF's dream to bring Felliani and Baines to the club.

We were interested in Baines last summer. As for Felliani, well maybe Fergie should have been in for him. Plenty of criticism has been sent his way over the past 4 or 5 years for not signing a midfielder.

 

[Brwned]

And how exactly does Brwned know all of this with such certainty?

What is there I've said that isn't just common sense? Moyes and Sir Alex have both said they scout players for months - I think Sir Alex said we bought Vidic nearly two years after first looking at him. Moyes hasn't been here long enough to do that with the players he's personally looking at. Sir Alex has only bought 5 midfielders from,outside the PL from the 20-odd he bought in his time here so it goes without saying that he has a preference for that, for whatever reason. He presumably thinks midfield play in the PL is very different to the other European Leagues. Naturally we'll have focussed much of our scouting on midfielders playing in Britain. We already know managers don't involve themselves in transfer negotiations.

 

[Varun]

There's a lot of talk about how Moyes' inability to find a player outside of his old club is a great disappointment, but realistically Moyes won't have been the one who identified any of our potential signings this summer nor does he have any input in the negotiations with the players we do attempt to sign. The people we're looking at signing are people we've scouted extensively while Sir Alex was here. Moyes may not be going after the same players but he'll still be picking names from the same list - he didn't create the list.

If you want to blame anyone for us being too "cautious" in the players we're looking at then blame Sir Alex. He's the one that decided on this strategy of mainly buying PL players with the occasional top foreign talent brought in along with that. Though I'm not sure why anyone would complain about a strategy that has saw us play great football and have plenty of success. It has nothing to do with our scouts not being able to recognise the talent of whatever player is the flavour of the month in the transfer forum. Nor does it have anything to do with Moyes not being able to recognise talent outside Britain. When Moyes was give time to identify the players he wanted at Everton he brought in the likes of Pienaar, Mirallas, Fellaini - 3 of their 4 first choice attackers - and Arteta to great success.

Sir Alex picked Moyes because he was the one to carry on doing things in the same way. That's all that's happening here. The manager, the scouts and the chief exec are all fulfilling their roles as normal in an organisational setup that was largely built by Sir Alex. If people need to vent their anger at someone because their "inner transfer muppet" hasn't been given the shiny new toy it desperately needs then aim it at Sir Alex rather than Moyes or the scouts. Or just take a reality check and remind yourself that Nani, Kagawa, Rooney, van Persie, Welbeck, Hernandez, Zaha and Januzaj are exciting enough as it is.

Moyes is the manager now and he's the one who came out and talked about wanting CMs as it was an area of weakness in the squad. You cant blame people for thinking that we now have a manager who's willing to address the obvious weakness in the squad and getting their hopes up that it'd be rectified. Now that the transfer window is nearing an end and we still have Carrick, Clev and Ando as our options is CM, discontent is expected. I totally agree that Sir Alex has a big role to play in our transfers this year but to say our current manager has "no input" in the transfers is naive, he's the one running the ship now and I doubt Moyes is just sitting there without contributing to how "his" squad shapes up.

Lastly, you named 8 players at the end of your post. None of them CMs, that is why you see the restlessness in the forum. Our team needs a CM. If we get a quality one tomorrow, you can bet that 95% of the forum will be satisfied and actually praise Moyes.

Blaming Moyes for transfers is clearly ridiculous - there haven't been any.

I do, however, blame him entirely for our total lack of transfers.

 

[Cina]

The main thing the club have done wrong this Summer is being so public about the transfers, I think.

 

[devilish]

It's embarrassing......... the way so many fans built themselves up to thinking we were going to go against what we've always done, and go out and spend about £150million on 4 world class players and when it doesn't happen they criticise the club and manager.


Obviously we need reinforcements, but its not a game of Fifa or FM.... spending 20,30,40 million and negotiating a contract, probably worth almost as much, with players, isn't straight forwards.

It amazes me the way some people think its just a matter of picking up the phone and offering 40m for someone like Fabregas, and thats it - done deal.

The whole topic and focus on transfers has become a sideshow, mainly designed to flog papers and advertising, and keep the soap opera thats sprung up around football moving. Unfortunately plenty of fans seem to enjoy it as much, if not more than the actual football. And thats before we get into the whole armchair manager phenomenon - lads sat at home, studying stats, who think they know something paid professionals dont.

Its unfair to blame the fans. After all they weren't the ones stating that there were 'no budget restrictions' and that they were bidding for Fabregas.

The question is whether Moyes is deluded or we're being lead by amateurs. There's no way we would have got Fabregas especially with a 25-30m bid.

 

[Shark]

Although SAF probably holds some blame for not addressing our midfield a long time ago, it also has to be said that we've had some rotten luck too. Hargreaves' injury problems for one was a big blow and then Fletcher's unfortunate illness which leaves serious question marks over his career with us. Then you have Ando and his constant injury problems.

We've been a bit cursed.

 

[Carl]

The main thing the club have done wrong this Summer is being so public about the transfers, I think.

Season tickets.

 

[devilish]

We were interested in Baines last summer. As for Felliani, well maybe Fergie should have been in for him. Plenty of criticism has been sent his way over the past 4 or 5 years for not signing a midfielder.

We are usually 'interested' to around 60 players every year. My point still stands. Felliani and Baines are Moyes men not SAF's

 

[moses]

Disagree, he's being a condescending arse suggesting that anyone who wants a transfer is a muppet and a child. If he was using logic then he'd clearly know that our squad has issues and in football you simply cannot afford to stand still. You have to keep the squad evolving and you have to improve.

We can't even discuss blame until the window shuts. That's the logical answer to this thread.

No, he's not saying anyone that wants a transfer is a child. I'd like a transfer, and he's definitely not calling me a child. I think even he'd like a transfer.

He never said it shouldn't be improved and he also he never said it can't be discussed.

So that's an odd logic you seem to be using.

He may be condescending but it's hard not to be moderating the hysteria and panic and prophesies of doom on the boards lately.

 

[Rory 7]

What is there I've said that isn't just common sense? Moyes and Sir Alex have both said they scout players for months - I think Sir Alex said we bought Vidic nearly two years after first looking at him. Moyes hasn't been here long enough to do that with the players he's personally looking at. Sir Alex has only bought 5 midfielders from the 20-odd he bought in his time here so it goes without saying that he has a preference for that, for whatever reason. He presumably thinks midfield play in the PL is very different to the other European Leagues. Naturally we'll have focussed much of our scouting on midfielders playing in Britain. We already know managers don't involve themselves in transfer negotiations.

I never said anything about common sense. You seem to have developed a nice logical rational 'theory' that explains why Moyes hasn't signed anyone. All I asked is how you can be so certain about this 'theory'? The title of the thread suggests that some folks are 'blaming' Moyes for lack of transfers. The jist of your opening gambit seems to be about 'blaming' Fergie. My point is merely that to 'blame' either is a complete nonsense as we clearly have money to spend and will most likely do so on the right candidate before the window closes. I just don't get this idea of 'blame' or how us fans can be so certain about the machinations of the clubs' transfer business. Its kind of bizarre the way fans have started to expect they know the ins and outs of every aspect of the club. Then again thats football, everyone's a manager...

 

[Eyepopper]

Its unfair to blame the fans. After all they weren't the ones stating that there were 'no budget restrictions' and that they were bidding for Fabregas.

The question is whether Moyes is deluded or we're being lead by amateurs. There's no way we would have got Fabregas especially with a 25-30m bid.

Well you can blame the fans as evidenced by you misrepresenting what was said. They never said there were 'no budget restrictions' - they said there was no transfer budget, in that they dont have a fixed sum in mind to spend. If the right player comes along the budget is made available.

If memory serves me correct there's every chance we would have gotten Fabregas if he wanted to come, didn't Barca's manager even say it was up to him? Maybe not for 25million but I doubt it would have been too far off 30-35million. The point being if he had wanted to come then the money would have been found.

So either Moyes is deluded or we're being led by amateurs - sure, or maybe negotiating deals worth 10's of millions isn't as straight forward as many think, and maybe there's a lot more going on in the background than any of us know about.

 

[Cina]

Fergie had five years to sign a midfielder, Moyes has two months. I'm not sure how people could possibly blame the latter over the former.

 

[Eyepopper]

We are usually 'interested' to around 60 players every year. My point still stands. Felliani and Baines are Moyes men not SAF's

And Utd are now Moyes team not SAF's so I don't see the problem.

 

[devilish]

Honestly I think everyone has a bit of blame in this. SAF for not addressing the CM problem. Moyes for aiming for a near impossible target, wasting time in the process and Woody who has yet to convince that those bids may be realistic in 2003 but not now. I have nothing against Moyes. At least the man care to sort the CM problem. However he's got his part of blame.

 

[Brwned]

I don't agree with the assertion that we're going after targets that were predetermined before Moyes arrived, I think Fellaini proves that isn't the case. We have the same midfield as last season and we didn't go for him then so why would SAF have gone for him this season? He's a Moyes target, I don't see how that can be argued against. However, I do agree with the general gist, our squad is very good and we'll be fine even if we don't sign anyone, although we probably will sign someone, maybe.

Knowing how Sir Alex likes going after players that have been the best player on the park v us and this being Fellaini's best season yet, you don't think Sir Alex might have been more interested in him this summer than the previous one? Is it really that outrageous to think Sir Alex may have been looking at Fellaini this summer himself given he's just after showing himself to be one of the best players in the league and having the versatility to excel in mutiple positions? I don't think so, personally.

Disagree, he's being a condescending arse suggesting that anyone who wants a transfer is a muppet and a child. If he was using logic then he'd clearly know that our squad has issues and in football you simply cannot afford to stand still. You have to keep the squad evolving and you have to improve.

We can't even discuss blame until the window shuts. That's the logical answer to this thread.

I wasn't saying any of that.

 

[Eyepopper]

The main thing the club have done wrong this Summer is being so public about the transfers, I think.

Agree with that, a bit of naivety there, and I think the fact that everything has been quiet since the Fabregas thing is more us learning lessons that nothing going on.

But hey, the crowd must have their entertainment, if there's not updates every 15 minutes people get tetchy.

 

[Rory 7]

Honestly I think everyone has a bit of blame in this. SAF for not addressing the CM problem. Moyes for aiming for a near impossible target, wasting time in the process and Woody who has yet to convince that those bids may be realistic in 2003 but not now. I have nothing against Moyes. At least the man care to sort the CM problem. However he's got his part of blame.

Blame for what? The window is still open.

 

[moses]

I never said anything about common sense. You seem to have developed a nice logical rational 'theory' that explains why Moyes hasn't signed anyone. All I asked is how you can be so certain about this 'theory'? The title of the thread suggests that some folks are 'blaming' Moyes for lack of transfers. The jist of your opening gambit seems to be about 'blaming' Fergie. My point is merely that to 'blame' either is a complete nonsense as we clearly have money to spend and will most likely do so on the right candidate before the window closes. I just don't get this idea of 'blame' or how us fans can be so certain about the machinations of the clubs' transfer business. Its kind of bizarre the way fans have started to expect they know the ins and outs of every aspect of the club. Then again thats football, everyone's a manager...

Can people not read?

He says if blame is to be put on anyone it's not Moyes.

If.

"If you want to blame " were his exact words.


For me Brwned and you agree.

 

[Mickeza]

The main thing the club have done wrong this Summer is being so public about the transfers, I think.

Only the Fabregas bid was made public by the club though, and that was over a month ago. When Moyes said we were in negotiations for "several" players last week nobody had a clue who they were, as shown by the papers linking us with Ronaldo, Modric, Ozil, Khedira, Fabregas, Fellaini and Di Maria in the space of a few hours. We made a bid for Baines and Fellaini on Thursday and it only came to light on Monday because Everton decided to make it public and let the world know how insulting it all was.

 

[Andrew~]

You're all speculating. The only reason Moyes will take the brunt of fan 'blame' for the perceived failure in the transfer window is that he is the most visible part of the management structure.