Probably head to bed soon just to let you know but have enjoyed the match so far.
WC All-time All-stars Round 1: Balu vs ThisIsTheOne
- Thread starter Polaroid
- Start date
These seem to be the main two points.
1 On the first - that is what I think you were mistakenly doing against TITO, ignoring the movement of his 4 players. If you are saying that his 4 vs 3 is countered by your other players moving into the midfield area, the of course I agree. So Cruyff dropping deep equals it up numerically there. That isn't what you are saying though, your argument is point 2 and I don't understand it.
2 Why do you need the extra pass? I don't understand what you are saying. The point is that, say, if Cerezo has possession he can look up and he not only has Charlton drifting around the number 10 role, he also has Gazza - there is an extra player there that normal formations do not have. Why is an extra pass relevant? Cerezo looks up and has an extra player to pick out in a central area, that is the point.
Because the one closing him down is already covering that passing lane and you can't pass through him? It's really tough to explain in theory. Go on a football pitch with a few friends and try it out, it really works. You can block out the 4th player without a 4th defender, when all 3 players know what they're doing, but you can't do it in a 2vs3.
Ah right okay. Well I'm not convinced that gets around the numerical advantage he has, Gazza and Charlton will be drifting and very difficult to pick up.
On the flip side anyway, that means he has 4 players marking your 3 players when you try and play through the middle, so surely you have absolutely no chance of getting anywhere centrally? If your 3 can stop his 4, then his 4 will surely walk defending against your 3?
I don't expect you to concede that, because it isn't true - very much Devils advocate there - but the point is that you can't escape the fact he has an advantage centrally. It's the same with all diamonds/magic squares.
Yes, I struggle to play through the middle, no questions about it. Of course, there's a clear 4vs3 advantage without possession. I'll bomb forward through the wings though, don't think that's really a problem for me in this game, quite the opposite. Cruyff will drop deep from time to time, but my fullbacks are brilliant playmakers and I'll use them to get the ball into the final third a lot.
I'm not denying that he has an advantage centrally in general, never said that (at least I hope I never did, I don't think I put everything as well as I wanted to on the previous page). What I tried to say is that I'm well setup to defend against it and can deny him to dominate the center in a way that means he has more control over the game than I have. Maybe that makes more sense?
I do think your team can play through the middle anyway, as I said that was just an exaggerated point to try and demonstrate the issues I saw with your reasoning i.e. if a 3 can play through a 4 (which they can), then a 4 can certainly play through a 3.
Okay, I think that's enough about pressing tactics, so I'll do a bit of a summery about my team:
There's a few key things that will work for me in attack:
There's a few key things that will work for me in attack:
- Of course there's Cruyff. TITO decided to not man-mark him and he's surrounded by players who will allow him to use his movement perfectly and attack through TITO's defensively weaker left wing again and again.
- Then there's my right side. It's a bit different to the left. Not much about complicated tactics to bring players into positions, just brilliant technical players, who formed one of the most exciting wings ever. Jairzinho will take on Schnellinger, Carlos Alberto will provide wonderfull passes from deep and force TITO's left sided midfielders to do a lot of defensive work, but I still doubt they can contain them
- There's also my threat from outside the box, Forlan has scored several long range goal and Davids will cover in defense when Haan sees the opportunity to move forward for one of his rocket shots from deep. That's a serious threat, the number of goals those players scored from longrange is incredible.
Well, a 3 can in theory play through 5 or 6 or 7 or 8, it's all about triangles and movement
. The secret number is always 3, you don't want to have more than 3 players in a tight area because the 4th players doesn't add much in attack or defense. In my case, my fullbacks are the better playmakers and have an easier way forward, so that's why I will play a lot through them instead of through de Boer, Haan and Davids.It is a fair point that Marzolini and Carlos Alberto's pace will be handy covering but their starting wide position on that offside trap (when blown) is farther, which somewhat makes up for it.
If the point is that there are four defenders against two forwards then I don't buy it though, it's four chaps trying to catch Vavá running onto a through ball and none of them can catch him really. It boils down to whether he can stay onside but once he has beaten the offside trap Balu is up shit creek. Rossi is the bigger name and WC performer but a high line playing the offside trap against Vavá is suicidal.
Now, defend deep and you have Charlton within shooting distance and Rossi in his element. It's a fecking nightmare combo that Tito has, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
It's working though, just like it did in '74 . I agree that it's dangerous, wouldn't call it suicidal, because the offside trap is only a part of the defense behind the highline. One of TITO's midfielders needs to have time on the ball to play a brilliant pass without anyone intercepting it as well, that's still quite a few ifs. I don't think I can keep Vava from scoring, I expected to concede the moment I was drawn against TITO. I'm confident that the risk is worth it though, I'll outscore him, I can create so much from open play and I'm sure that I get one or two chances through the pressing as well, which can easily lead to counterattacks just as dangerous.
. I'm off to bed now as well, I'm sure we'll see an exciting finish tomorrow.
. I agree that it's dangerous, wouldn't call it suicidal, because the offside trap is only a part of the defense behind the highline. One of TITO's midfielders needs to have time on the ball to play a brilliant pass without anyone intercepting it as well, that's still quite a few ifs. I don't think I can keep Vava from scoring, I expected to concede the moment I was drawn against TITO. I'm confident that the risk is worth it though, I'll outscore him, I can create so much from open play and I'm sure that I get one or two chances through the pressing as well, which can easily lead to counterattacks just as dangerous.Missed that post, you should have quoted me and not yourself
. I'm off to bed now as well, I'm sure we'll see an exciting finish tomorrow.I completely agree that Vava will be loving to play against that high line - it just sounded like he would score 5 goals.
Personally I think it is a certain that both teams will score - Vava will get one maybe more and Jairzinho/Alberto will cause 1-3 goals. They can challenge the best of wide midfielders and wing-back combinations so against Schnellinger alone I think they will get past him over and over whereas Baresi/Perfumo will handle it great.
It will still cause plenty of goal-chances which will sooner or later end up in goal. There has only been one better right side in history in Garrincha/Djalma in my eyes. No left side can suffocate that combination and certainly not a single wing-back even if he is defensively solid and has Baresi as his closest centre back.
Rossi to me will not add much in this formation - he will be wanting to work the same balls as Vava but with less excellence on the counter. Charlton will not score considering his long-ranged efforts will be pushed too far up the pitch to matter. Cruyff will not be the match-winner considering he will waste all his energy for his overall great play.
Could Forlan be the match-winner? He scores in a manner that is almost impossible to stop from outside the box which will work good against Zanetti/Perfumo.
Suffocate is the wrong word, it's more concerted damage limitation. I can see a goal eventually, but three? It has goalfest potential, I agree, but in any game with goalfest potential I would fancy the sturdier defence to tip the balance. Balu's is a guy utterly free and through on goal waiting to happen, while Tito's is a disciplined and well marshalled backline to be breached.
Rossi's value is in that if Balu defended deep he has a massive headache in his hands. That's what I only noticed today about Tito's attack, how adaptable it is and how the relative importance of players can change.
Was very much why I mentioned earlier Cafú would have settled my vote earlier. Zanetti is most likely being overrated while the opposite is likely the case with Forlán. And Ceulemans if I may add, cracking player that he was. Once I got Seeler (Jan was one of many alternative setups if I missed out on him) I actually mentioned to Balu he was one of the best options he had to replicate the Neeskens-Cruyff dynamic. Sneaky bugger, he then admitted he was thinking the same!
Couldn't be put much better about their teams. I rate Schnellinger very high but the extra player in the middle will raise the bar for Schnellinger but also Zanetti. I feel Zanetti will handle it better - like I said Forlan could score - I wouldn't be surprised at all- but Jairzinho/Alberto will smell blood against a lonely Schnellinger.Suffocate is the wrong word, it's more concerted damage limitation. I can see a goal eventually, but three? It has goalfest potential, I agree, but in any game with goalfest potential I would fancy the sturdier defence to tip the balance. Balu's is a guy utterly free and through on goal waiting to happen, while Tito's is a disciplined and well marshalled backline to be breached.
Rossi's value is in that if Balu defended deep he has a massive headache in his hands. That's what I only noticed today about Tito's attack, how adaptable it is and how the relative importance of players can change.
Was very much why I mentioned earlier Cafú would have settled my vote earlier. Zanetti is most likely being overrated while the opposite is likely the case with Forlán. And Ceulemans if I may add, cracking player that he was. Once I got Seeler (Jan was one of many alternative setups if I missed out on him) I actually mentioned to Balu he was one of the best options he had to replicate the Neeskens-Cruyff dynamic. Sneaky bugger, he then admitted he was thinking the same!
I like Cuelemans as well - great player to get so late. The problem I have with him is the same as with Cruyff - the central areas will consist of Perfumo-Baresi behind Tardelli and Cerezo. They also have such a huge job centrally to handle the extra man centrally that I think neither of them will win this game.
I think Cueleman would be a great addition for the people wanting a magic rectangle - capable of filling that left width like you said.
I think Forlan being underrated thanks to his club level not being as high as his WC level is probably affecting a lot. Not once mentioned apart from you regarding Zanetti.
What the feck is a magic rectangle?
It sounds exquisite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format...932.E2.80.932.E2.80.932_.28Magic_Rectangle.29
Game, set and Match.
Game, set and Match.
It's always been square mate. Fine, a square is a form of rectangle and a rectangle maybe a more accurate description but it's already confusing enough with all the arrows flying about to add a magic rectangle.
I have always heard both used so I don't notice when people/myself change the term to one or the other.Balu's defence against the attack will surely lead to goals for TITO. voting for TITO. Although I should say that will be a real close affair with both managers playing chess with a superior set of players to what we usually see in the so-called tactical matches. Fantastic teams as would be expected in such a draft.
Cheers sajeev, well, not for voting for TITO, but for appreciating the teams and the effort. I think it's great when the voters write a quick summary why they chose a team.
I think my defense is a bit underrated, it fits nicely into the team and the idea for the game, and both my defensive midfielders are very well suited of doing a great job against his more attacking midfielders. Davids can match the physical game with Gascoigne and Haan's reading of the game should be a great way to minimise Charlton's influence on the game as much as possible (hell of a task though, no doubt). I haven't found any footage of Schulz that would help me sell him better, because he's really underrated, imo, but he was the heart of a defense that conceded only 2 goals on the way to the final. It always feels like the German players before the golden generation of the 70's don't get the full credit they deserve. Same with Seeler for example, who was of course an even greater forward than Schulz was a defender. Hope Anto gets a lot of credit for picking him. Schnellinger is the one that appears more often in alltime discussions, maybe because of the lack of outstanding defensive leftbacks, but I'd say his peak worldcup performances came in '70 as a sweeper, he's rarely mentioned in that role though (that's really not meant as a criticism for using him as a leftback, he had brilliant worldcups in '62 and '66, no doubt).
I think my defense is a bit underrated, it fits nicely into the team and the idea for the game, and both my defensive midfielders are very well suited of doing a great job against his more attacking midfielders. Davids can match the physical game with Gascoigne and Haan's reading of the game should be a great way to minimise Charlton's influence on the game as much as possible (hell of a task though, no doubt). I haven't found any footage of Schulz that would help me sell him better, because he's really underrated, imo, but he was the heart of a defense that conceded only 2 goals on the way to the final. It always feels like the German players before the golden generation of the 70's don't get the full credit they deserve. Same with Seeler for example, who was of course an even greater forward than Schulz was a defender. Hope Anto gets a lot of credit for picking him. Schnellinger is the one that appears more often in alltime discussions, maybe because of the lack of outstanding defensive leftbacks, but I'd say his peak worldcup performances came in '70 as a sweeper, he's rarely mentioned in that role though (that's really not meant as a criticism for using him as a leftback, he had brilliant worldcups in '62 and '66, no doubt).
I have voted for TITO. I think this will be a goal fest and I expect him to marginally get that extra goal. If likes of Alberto and Marzolini will be attacking, then Balu's defense is not enough to handle Tito's attacking threat. Was tough because as a general rule I do not like the midfield square or diamond, I also mostly agreed with Balu on 4 vs 3 in the midfield. I don think there is any advantage there. I think I would have voted for Balu if he had the central defense of TITO
Balu, vote if you can. I keep seeing the score and think I'm catching you, but then you're yet to vote so I'm still losing. It's cruel
Glad to see Anto picking up on my strike partnership. I wrote in the opening post that Vava would cause his centre backs all kinds of problems with his pace and then Rossi over the initial 5 yards, when play moves into the penalty area, will be deadly. Anto just worded it much better!
Its important to note that my centre backs are stronger. Baresi Perfumo is a level or two above de Boer and Shultz. This is a big factor.
Glad to see Anto picking up on my strike partnership. I wrote in the opening post that Vava would cause his centre backs all kinds of problems with his pace and then Rossi over the initial 5 yards, when play moves into the penalty area, will be deadly. Anto just worded it much better!
Its important to note that my centre backs are stronger. Baresi Perfumo is a level or two above de Boer and Shultz. This is a big factor.
Okay I'm still slightly ahead and after more than 70 minutes of crazy total football and all that running and working and moving from everyone, I'm going to change my defensive approach for the rest of the game.
Frank de Boer goes off and Schwarzenbeck will come on, Beckenbauer's brilliant partner for Germany's title win in '74. We're going to sit deeper, Davids ahead of the defense, so that his speed can help out against Vava with Haan defending against Charlton. My fullbacks will tuck inside to help out, especially my inverse leftback Marzolini will double up with Ceulemans against Gascoigne's dangerous dribblings, while Cruyff moves slightly more to the left, so that he can cover against Zanetti if he joins in attack. Forlan moves into the center, I'll use him to hold up the ball for counterattacks or I'll go through Cruyff and Jairzinho on the wings, if one of TITO's fullbacks joins the attack.
Here you go:
Let's see if his four attacking players still have enough power to put pressure on my now clearly less risky defensive setup, after all the dropping deep, dribbling around in their own half, Vava running offside 20 times, they had to do to score so far.
@Polaroid
if you're online, can you change it in the OP? Or how do we handle substitutions?
Frank de Boer goes off and Schwarzenbeck will come on, Beckenbauer's brilliant partner for Germany's title win in '74. We're going to sit deeper, Davids ahead of the defense, so that his speed can help out against Vava with Haan defending against Charlton. My fullbacks will tuck inside to help out, especially my inverse leftback Marzolini will double up with Ceulemans against Gascoigne's dangerous dribblings, while Cruyff moves slightly more to the left, so that he can cover against Zanetti if he joins in attack. Forlan moves into the center, I'll use him to hold up the ball for counterattacks or I'll go through Cruyff and Jairzinho on the wings, if one of TITO's fullbacks joins the attack.
Here you go:
Let's see if his four attacking players still have enough power to put pressure on my now clearly less risky defensive setup, after all the dropping deep, dribbling around in their own half, Vava running offside 20 times, they had to do to score so far.
@Polaroid
if you're online, can you change it in the OP? Or how do we handle substitutions?
They are always tricky as most take them at face value. I always insist the starting and final lineup should be on stating at what scoreline it was changed and roughly at what point in the game (e.g. 12 hours in being half time, this being with 20 mins to go).
Brwned thinks I'm mental and that no one pays any attention to that. He may be right.
BTW, TITO is right, you really should vote as it looks a draw when it isn't. Typical feckup and more typical with Tito, he once celebrated at the final whistle before realising I had actually won as three of his votes were banned (him, his AM and the rival manager who would play the winner in the final). It was epic, had that clip of Mou eye-gouging Tito and all
I already voted to make clear that I'm ahead when I changed my tactics, so the poll shows the real score right now. I don't think any of us has an assistant, so there shouldn't be any confusion in the end.
I agree with you on the part about showing both line-ups in the op. Everyone who reads through the thread should judge the substitution and changes in relation to what happened in the game so far, it makes no sense otherwise. But I doubt many users are as crazy as we are when it comes to that, so whatever happens, I'm good.
I agree with you on the part about showing both line-ups in the op. Everyone who reads through the thread should judge the substitution and changes in relation to what happened in the game so far, it makes no sense otherwise. But I doubt many users are as crazy as we are when it comes to that, so whatever happens, I'm good.
BTW, TITO is right, you really should vote as it looks a draw when it isn't. Typical feckup and more typical with Tito, he once celebrated at the final whistle before realising I had actually won as three of his votes were banned (him, his AM and the rival manager who would play the winner in the final). It was epic, had that clip of Mou eye-gouging Tito and all
Thanks for reminding me of that. Honestly thought I'd grabbed a late equalizer. Then my hopes were quickly shattered.
No, I don't have an assistant so the real score is now up. Cheers.
10-9 backs against the wall now Balu. Can your boys hang on?
I need some Charlton or Gazza magic, maybe a Tardelli long range effort or a flukey Paolo Rossi tap in...
Or maybe Schnellinger can grab another famous last minute goal.
Wouldn't call it backs against the wall, yet, unless you commit more of your players going forward, which gives me a better chance to hit you on the counter. Still an incredible close game, imo, anything can happen, but I'm confident that this is Jairzinho's time now. He had a hard time so far against Schnellinger with Baresi the next to beat, but he's got more space now and he didn't have to do as much defensive work as everyone else, so he has still more than enough energy left to take on your defense. He's going to grab a late goal to increase my lead.
With so much experience and intelligence in my side with Baresi and co, we shouldn't be caught out on the counter by committing too many men forward. Plenty of time left in this one. But the longer it goes on, the deeper you will get, naturally. Which plays into my hands surely, with Rossi lurking in the box and the likes of Charlton hovering around the edge.
You've mentioned throughout the entire game how you had to play a high line against me, it was the only way to stop me. But now thats gone, and the lead is so slender... this is going to be interesting Balu. Just hope Pol is around soon to update the OP.
I have too many big players in my team, famous for scoring late goals, not to grab an equalizer in this scenario, surely?
Rossi, Vavá
Charlton, Tardelli
Schnellinger
All got famous late or vital goals in World Cups.
Rossi, Vavá
Charlton, Tardelli
Schnellinger
All got famous late or vital goals in World Cups.
Yeah, but the situation is a bit different now, because I don't need to score anymore. I couldn't have found a balance that allows me to use Cruyff to his full extent in attack when sitting deep. I've done that for 70minutes, I have the lead. Now I can use my fullbacks way more in defense and don't need the threat in midfield from Haan or Davids moving forward to create space for Cruyff. I'm happy to defend with 7 against your 4 for 20 minutes, especially now with Schwarzenbeck in it. If you push forward, Jairzinho and Cruyff will be lethal on the counter, if not, I have a great chance to get away with it.
This is so hard to vote on, two great teams unlucky to draw each other
I don't like this tactic change Balu. I couldn't decide before it. Now it just looks weird. It invites pressure. The score was also that close that you couldn't really assume that you were ahead. And now, as I write this, it's tied.
I also don't know why you assume that Jairzinho isn't tired. Why shouldn't he be similarly fatigued as the rest of your team. Especially Cruyff who has had to drop down to defend and now has to play on the wing.
I also don't know why you assume that Jairzinho isn't tired. Why shouldn't he be similarly fatigued as the rest of your team. Especially Cruyff who has had to drop down to defend and now has to play on the wing.
I got so much stick for my weakness at the back, that I had to make a change, I went from 4 or 5 votes up to 1 vote up without anyone commenting that my idea of defending actually works very well and contains his attack. Everything I read was suicidal or leak goals or outclassed. If you start well, but the game turns into the wrong direction, you really should change something before it's too late, imo.
It's also not unusual that a team that uses intense pressing gets tired in the end and looses focus in a high backline, you really want to decide the game early, or stay deeper to see it out, when you're only slightly ahead. I would hate it to play that way throughout the game, but I think it really makes sense for the last 15 minutes. It's of course true that it invites pressure, but it's not like he can throw crazy numbers of attackers at me and I think it benefits Jairzinho and Cruyff at this stage of the game.
Jairzinho didn't have to defend as much as the other players in my team, the idea was always that he would pin back Schnellinger by staying upfront especially with the danger of Carlos Alberto joining him, so I think it makes sense that he's less tired.
It's also not unusual that a team that uses intense pressing gets tired in the end and looses focus in a high backline, you really want to decide the game early, or stay deeper to see it out, when you're only slightly ahead. I would hate it to play that way throughout the game, but I think it really makes sense for the last 15 minutes. It's of course true that it invites pressure, but it's not like he can throw crazy numbers of attackers at me and I think it benefits Jairzinho and Cruyff at this stage of the game.
Jairzinho didn't have to defend as much as the other players in my team, the idea was always that he would pin back Schnellinger by staying upfront especially with the danger of Carlos Alberto joining him, so I think it makes sense that he's less tired.
The only thing speaking against it would be that it's too obvious. Like your safest bet being your weakest card in a penalty shoot-out. The perverseness of fate or whatever you want to call it...But it doesn't really apply here. So, I'm going to vote for you.
It's Rossi for me. A sustained pressure after Balu's lads dropped down and eased up on the pressing/high line game. Which was a mistake. Their chance lay in working themselves into the ground, sticking to the plan till the final whistle: This has been a total football effort, after all - using one of history's most gifted players in a role which involves plenty of sheer, defensive dog work (it's absolutely brilliant - the Cruyff role is the masterstroke of this match). But it had to be 100% commitment till the bitter end, when it becomes about soaking up pressure, relying on standard defending, no - it can't last. There's too much attacking power, too much of a goal threat. And so Rossi wins it for TITO. He's just there - they can't contain both him and Vava at the same time, not with Charlton and Gazza to worry about as well - a tap-in after Charlton's rocket bounces off the far post. It's over.
Brilliant thread. Great contributions from both managers. As others have rightly said - it's a shame these lads had to face each other so early on. Looking forward to the last minutes here - it should be very tight.
Balu had done well in bringing justice to Cryuff. I have never been active but voted in some of the past drafts. Cryuff has always been underrated and this is the first time he is getting the attention he deserves.
Ffs, now all of a sudden people appear and believe in my defensive concept, couldn't you have posted earlier . Now I hate myself, if I loose the game, I didn't before.
. Now I hate myself, if I loose the game, I didn't before.I still believe it's harsh to say, it had to be intense pressing and crazy offside trap until the end to make it work and that his 4 attackers will definitely score now. Or in case he really starts to commit his fullbacks and one of his defensive midfielders forward to actually apply pressure, I'm not in an equally great position to score on the counter. I also believe that Schwarzenbeck is clearly the 2nd best centerback on the pitch now and perfectly suited to defend against Rossi, I always had that idea to change it in the end against him and don't think it's a problem really. It's also not true that I completely concede possession. I'm happy to pass the ball around in my half and he needs his defenders to move forward to win it back or is it also clear that his attacking 4 will do that as well? So far TITO hasn't even reacted to my changes and he wants to keep his defenders in a solid shape, how is he getting the ball from me?
In a different game in which I could have dominated possession in midfield, I wouldn't have made that change, because then I could easily apply constant pressure all over the pitch, but against his midfield it really makes sense. He still has no width to give Rossi the support he excelled on for example. He's just running with 2 central players into a lot of central defenders who aren't bad at all and hopes to slip a ball through. It's weird who all of a sudden that is seen as a certain way to score a goal.
In a different game in which I could have dominated possession in midfield, I wouldn't have made that change, because then I could easily apply constant pressure all over the pitch, but against his midfield it really makes sense. He still has no width to give Rossi the support he excelled on for example. He's just running with 2 central players into a lot of central defenders who aren't bad at all and hopes to slip a ball through. It's weird who all of a sudden that is seen as a certain way to score a goal.
Yeah, pretty much this, from my point of view. Think Balu had to keep going as he was. Total football.
Deserves credit for being the first drafter to really get the best out of Cruyff. I had him in the all-time draft and criminally wasted his talents compared to Balu.
It's 11-11 atm. Still as tight as can be mate.Ffs, now all of a sudden people appear and believe in my defensive concept, couldn't you have posted earlier