RM is doing considerably better with nearly the same set of players which can mean it's all in his tactics
You again ignored the crux of my post so I will stop now, good luck with your beliefs
Support David Moyes thread
- Thread starter Danny_
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You again ignored the crux of my post so I will stop now, good luck with your beliefs
They haven't though. The point was that just because it was Fergie's opinion doesn't make it right. Also, everything leads to believe that Moyes won't ever be a good manager for us. You can't say it with absolute assurance (unless you are oracle) but chances are very high that is the case. Moyes may turn up to be the greatest manager of all time, but Scott Parker may theoritically win the next 5 Ballon D'Or. In both those cases, chances are very low.
I was against Young's transfer. I was proven completely right. I don't claim that I know more than Fergie about football but fans are correct in many things.
Sanctimonious shite.I guess that's the calibre of these forums these days, I bow to your awesome intellect and footballing brain starwars.
I have many opinions on fergie, moyes, the players, the board, the fans, the club, the league... to pin it on one man in this of all seasons is misguided and kneejerk - Moyes has far from convinced and needs a big turnaround... but i'd be gutted to see United sack a manager mid season in the first season after Fergie.
Duafc out.
Nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately (Ill stick to your example) in this case, this kind of person was allowed to become the chief scientist of CERN.it s not always broken you know...sometimes he user takes time to get used to it,especially if the user only had 1 mobile before the new one...
We're all frustrated but a decent case for not sacking Moyes can be made.
As a precondition to any midseason sacking, there has to be a successor lined up. You can't sack Moyes and not have a Plan B already lined up. But all that means is that a Plan B should be under discussion right now. I have no confidence in Edward Woodward being able to stand up to Sir Alex and Sir Bobby and I have no confidence in the Glazers to stand up to them either. So, we're basically fecked and we're on a course to drift further and further down the table, given Moyes's inability to see our dismal performances to be anything other than bad luck.
We caftards can't do shit about the mess we're in, but we're here to exchange ideas on the path forward. My recommendation is that Moyes should be sacked immediately and that Giggs be made caretaker manager. I don't know if Giggs has the required credentials/badges to serve as a prem manager and there's obviously a huge risk in going with a current player/manager, but there has to be immense respect for Giggs by the players and I have to believe he understands the game of footballer vastly better than Moyes, who has disgraced not only himself and United, but the game of football itself. His tactics are a throwback to the 1980s and are easily coped with now by clubs as dire as Stoke and Fulham. You would never see Bayern or Real Madrid launch 25 crosses in a game, let alone 81.
It won't happen, but Moyes must be advised immediately that his services are no longer required.
As a precondition to any midseason sacking, there has to be a successor lined up. You can't sack Moyes and not have a Plan B already lined up. But all that means is that a Plan B should be under discussion right now. I have no confidence in Edward Woodward being able to stand up to Sir Alex and Sir Bobby and I have no confidence in the Glazers to stand up to them either. So, we're basically fecked and we're on a course to drift further and further down the table, given Moyes's inability to see our dismal performances to be anything other than bad luck.
We caftards can't do shit about the mess we're in, but we're here to exchange ideas on the path forward. My recommendation is that Moyes should be sacked immediately and that Giggs be made caretaker manager. I don't know if Giggs has the required credentials/badges to serve as a prem manager and there's obviously a huge risk in going with a current player/manager, but there has to be immense respect for Giggs by the players and I have to believe he understands the game of footballer vastly better than Moyes, who has disgraced not only himself and United, but the game of football itself. His tactics are a throwback to the 1980s and are easily coped with now by clubs as dire as Stoke and Fulham. You would never see Bayern or Real Madrid launch 25 crosses in a game, let alone 81.
It won't happen, but Moyes must be advised immediately that his services are no longer required.
The success of United in the post Glazer years was on the back of the foundations Fergie laid at the club, well before the Glazers came along.
United have been successful in spite of them.
Is there anything the manager is responsible for?
if fans were so correct as you said, fergie would have been sacked 4 or 5 times. Re: being correct or not,the winners are those who get more right than wrongs in the long run. And fergie is one of those,love him or hate him.
You can't deny that they have heavily invested on the club, raised our revenue for more than 100% and that our wage bill is one of the biggest in football though. They also never interferred with football things. They could have done it on plenty of times. Selling Ronaldo a year early, not signing players etc.
You are not offering anything to support your comment that our success was in spite of them. Yes the debt. Around 50m a year we lose from it. Our revenue on the same time has increased for around 200m though. Of course that not all of it is because of them (likely not even most of it) but still they have shown to be great businessmen and a part of that increase is because of their work.
4-5 times I dunno. I don't remember his first few years so can't comment on that. I heard that a lot of people wanted him gone though.
I agree with your post. Fergie is usually more correct than the fans. He has been shown multiple times to be completely wrong though, and the Moyes appointment looks more like a Djemba Djemba rather than a Cantona signing.
Well put
I'd be happier to give him another season to get results if I could see him trying to make positive changes etc but I can't. I honestly don't see how much a summer of splashing the cash is gonna change things when he's got already 3 of the top attacking talents in the league and we've been as poor as we've been all season with them in the team. His approach just does not seem tailored to making the most of them, it seems to be to make the most of the wingers/fullbacks, which I could understand if they were top players/playing wel, but they're not and they aren't. And even if they were we should have more variety to our play.
I'm not going to call for his head but I think it's reasonable that some are loosing their patience and if he was replaced at the end of the season I could understand why. There's got to be a basic level of expectation, you can show patience and you can be sensible and not expect him to get them playing like Barca/Bayern etc but there's got to be some level where you say this is the minimum we expect. For me that was fourth, but even then as the seasons gone on I'd have said if he just misses out but gets the team looking like it's got something to build on then give him another season. But it just isn't there.
I don't think we can get fourth now and we're certainly not going to win the CL. He can somewhat redeem himself if he manages to get some good results there though. At minimum I think he's got to show some sign of looking to mix things up by the end of the season and getting a good finish to the season even if we're still not going to end up fourth.
I'm not going to call for his head but I think it's reasonable that some are loosing their patience and if he was replaced at the end of the season I could understand why. There's got to be a basic level of expectation, you can show patience and you can be sensible and not expect him to get them playing like Barca/Bayern etc but there's got to be some level where you say this is the minimum we expect. For me that was fourth, but even then as the seasons gone on I'd have said if he just misses out but gets the team looking like it's got something to build on then give him another season. But it just isn't there.
I don't think we can get fourth now and we're certainly not going to win the CL. He can somewhat redeem himself if he manages to get some good results there though. At minimum I think he's got to show some sign of looking to mix things up by the end of the season and getting a good finish to the season even if we're still not going to end up fourth.
Busby couldn't relinquish control of the club. He had the final say on transfers, even when Docherty was the manager (if you believe the story about Peter Shilton that is). He kept an office, the door of which was open to players who wanted to moan about the manager. Not until Fergies arrival, when he clearly recognised a kindred soul, did Busby finally relinquish his grip. Of course, while all this was going on, there were hints in the press about it, but nobody ever told tales out of school.
Before Busby retired, names were kicked around in the press as to who would land the job. Jock Stein, Brian Clough, even Don Revie were in the frame. Instead, we got McGuinness and as nice a bloke as he was, he hadn't any idea how to manage a team of United's stature. A recent article on the Sky site states that Stein, Clough, or Revie would never have stood for being told what to do by Busby. Not a bad line of reasoning is it?
None of us has a clue about what happens behind closed doors at Old Trafford, except for what gets leaked to the press and that's generally positive. Roy Keane has alluded to Fergie retaining control but that's dismissed as the rantings of a bitter man who is no longer on good terms with the club. But having seen all of this happen before, it makes me wonder.
I never wanted Moyes in the first place. His CV is wholly inadequate for the manager of one of the planet's biggest teams. If the job had been advertised, how would Moyes stack up against other applicants, bearing in mind that top names from Europe would have been falling over themselves to get the job? Moyes would have been a non-starter; in fact, I wonder if he would have even bothered applying. So, he's a Scot with a great work ethic and a history of sticking the course with a lesser team. If that was the sole criteria, they could have hired the bloke from bloody Falkirk Rovers or whoever. Does the same reasoning that's applied to the Stein, Clough, and Revie scenario apply here? If so, then maybe Keano is right. I hope not as I would not want to see Fergie's legacy tarnished in any way, shape, or form but only time will tell, and maybe some ex-players when they come to write their memoirs about this time.
Is he? At the same stage of the season, Martinez has picked up 3 more points. He's done excellently to pick up the 3 loan players he has but he's unlikely to be using those players again next season.
And right now they're 6th in the table. Last season, Everton finished.....6th.
Moyes is doing an appalling job at the moment but there's a lot of rewriting of the job that he did at Everton going on at the moment.
apart from 1990,i remember so called fans wanting him sacked in 1996 (after selling Hughes,kanchelskis and once - you ll won nothing with kids season),some time after 2001 (when we signed djemba djemba) and also later on in 2005-6
I don't understand your logic.
When Martinez is having Everton play beter football than they ever did under DM, Moyes is supposed to get part of the credits for that because he build the foundations of that team.
but
When DM is playing some of the shittiest football with a side that SAF build the foundations for (and won alot of silverware with), he is excused for it because it is one of the most difficult transitions that has ever been done in world football.
Why isn't there a transition at Everton ? Moyes has been there 11 years, alright its not 27 years like SAF, but its quite a long time for a manager to be at a club. Wouldn't you say that takes some transtioning aswell. Yet Martinez doesn't seem to have any problems with it, in fact he is letting them play beter football than ever, even beter than us in fact.
You seem to just be looking for excuses to defend David Moyes. Oh no Martinez isn't a beter coach, doesn't matter he is playing beter than David ever did with Everton, because David build that team. Yet Moyes who gets to play with a champions team build by SAF has such a difficult transtion that he couldn't possibly be playing any better than he has been. WTF is that kind of logic, if Moyes has problems at United, why doesn't Martinez have at Everton, and why isn't Moyes playing beter than Martinez whilst having a beter team with more individual quality. It just doesn't make sense, unless Martinez is a far beter manager than Moyes ofcourse...
To the people still in full support of Moyes, may I ask you this: what gives you such confidence in this man that he can change our league position, the performances, and the morale of the dressing room? How long do you think it will take to get back to near the top if we stick with him? Do you even think £150 million investment in one summer would see any improvement? I really need to know this, because I can't for the life of me see how.
Of course he shares the blame, but sacking him 6 months into his reign is not within the best interests of the club imo.
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Yeah that's definitely true. He did do an excellent job there and he did it over a sustained period. Sadly he's not taken any of the traits that served him so well there and he's not really adapted to the traits that we've been so good at here for along time.
I have been and still am in the 'give him time' camp. I think he needs next summer, both to bring people in and shift a few on. I also think he's had a terrible run of luck, etc etc etc.
All that said, the form of the team really is baffling, and ultimately he has to carry the can, not for failing to challenge for the league, maybe not even for being 7th, but some of our results this season have been inexcusable. Today was one of the most bizarre games of football I've ever seen!
I think we should stick by him but he needs to salvage something this season, even if it's just a decent run to the end of the year. If we continue as we have been I'd hate to see what some of the teams in the CL would do to us over two legs.
If that happens, and/or we continue to limp along as we have been in the league, then I think it would take an absolute muppet fantasy summer for him to turn things around.
I reckon Pogue is right, fail to finish in the top half (can't believe I'm even thinking it) and I can't see how he could stay.
All that said, the form of the team really is baffling, and ultimately he has to carry the can, not for failing to challenge for the league, maybe not even for being 7th, but some of our results this season have been inexcusable. Today was one of the most bizarre games of football I've ever seen!
I think we should stick by him but he needs to salvage something this season, even if it's just a decent run to the end of the year. If we continue as we have been I'd hate to see what some of the teams in the CL would do to us over two legs.
If that happens, and/or we continue to limp along as we have been in the league, then I think it would take an absolute muppet fantasy summer for him to turn things around.
I reckon Pogue is right, fail to finish in the top half (can't believe I'm even thinking it) and I can't see how he could stay.
Top half? What's magic about the top half? There's no dividing line between 10th and 11th, the test is between 4th and 5th.
He's done.
Is tenth okay? I admire those of you willing to give him more time, I've seen nothing to justify remaining patient with Moyes.
Look, I've heard all about the Martinez miracles at Everton and just like with Moyes I think time will tell. I would judge either after 6 months.
Spoken like a true enemy of intelligence.
Who has said that?
I'm just giving my opinion. I think that's what it would take for him to be sacked. Maybe 9th. I don't think he'll be sacked for missing a top 4 spot, or even a EL spot.
I'd sack him in the morning and take Fergie back if I could, but it's not going to happen.
What if we finished in the bottom half, but won the last two games?!
We are Man United, I say relegation should be the limit for us..
That's the thing though, getting 4th basically means going through a groups stage with no real chance of actually putting a real challenge. Would not be the end of the world if we missed on CL football for a season. Sacking a manager because we finish 7th or 6th and not 4th is mad. None of them is good enough for MUFC, but there's a price to pay for the instability of replacing a generation-long successful management.
I agree with you then. I don't see him being sacked 'til Christmas. Might go into hibernation myself... Heard it's good craic.
His job will be safe irrespective of where we finish. He finished his first year at Everton in 17th then took them to 4th the next year. Juxtapose that to Fergie's comments that he should be supported through the bad times, and its quite easy to see he isn't going anywhere.
I feel for him, I really do. Ive wanted him out for a while now but today, I don't know what it is, I want him to succeed. He doesn't deserve the vitriol he's getting...his expression when we went 2-1 up was great to see.
I feel the same although today I have lost it with him yet I will support him fully while he's here.I want him to succeed and I have been vocal with my support on here.My gut feeling after today is that he has to learn to adapt and change or he'll fail.Two duckhead fans to my left calling SAF a fat,useless,cont who is unsettling the club with him being at the club still and claiming we can't move on until he's brown bread!! I was all for ragging them about the stretty!
...are very much connected. Morale/confidence is clearly low at the moment. It affects the performances. It's his job to make the players believe in themselves - and it's not an easy job at the moment. I don't have any unwavering, blind confidence in the man. I can't guarantee that he will turn things around. I think he's a good manager, though. And I don't think he intends for us to play so-called stone age football either. He's a pragmatic man, not a champagne football kind of manager, but he isn't a believer in Wimbledon tactics either. If he gets us playing with confidence and supplements the current team with some needed additions I believe we'll look a hell of a sight better than we're doing at the moment.
How long will it take to get back to near the top? Not that long. If we can land our targets in the summer (most importantly a top class CM) we should challenge again next season. And if we don't, if he still can't get 'em playing decent football with good results - he will be fired. I have no doubts over that. I don't believe for a second that Fergie and the football people at the club have no expectations and will gladly let him faff about for ever while we linger down the table. And even if they do, contrary to all reason, the owners won't tolerate blatant incompetence and a sustained lack of results.
Absolutely. He'll still be here next season. I still believe in him and support him fully but for the sake of my peace of mind over the summer I'd really like to see some progression between now and the end of the season.
I don't think you fully understand how much it will cost us if (that) we missed out on CL football. First of all it'll cost us a ton of money. Second, good luck trying to re-build the squad with no CL football and with Moyes being our manager (who was the reason why we won't have CL football this season in the first place).
I'm not going to change my opinion just to score some moral points in front of the other fans. Before the season started (when many were still thinking that we're gonna challenge for the title) I thought that if we finish 4th then it's still okay for Moyes' first year. Below that is not good enough.. I wasn't a spoiled fan when the season started, and I'm not going to be a delusional fan in February either.
Below top 4 is not good enough. It wasn't when the season started, and it's not going to be now. People are changing their opinions now and we're drifting slowly (but surely) towards accepting anything but relegation now. We have a title winning squad ffs + Mata and Januzaj! The objective should be trying to make United successful, not trying to make Moyes successful.
There are no signs that things are going to change. Instead of hoping that we can build the best squad ever made in the history of football (yeah, good luck with that) so Moyes can finally finish in the top 4, just admit that we've made a mistake, suck it up, and correct what needs to be corrected. And don't kid yourself, if Fergie had this squad in 1986 he would have finished in the top 4!
Yeah that's clearly what I'm talking about.
Also don't confuse what I think will happen with what I'd like to happen.
Either way I don't think he'll be sacked as anything but a last resort. I think it would take something like finishing in the bottom half, I also wouldn't be hugely surprised if he wasn't sacked in those circumstances.
You seen the post match interviews? laughing and joking around like a complete moron. A walking, talking disgrace if thee ever was one.
re cl money 31m last year
I agree.. I don't think he'll be sacked either.. I think the first moment where that would be considered (under any circumstances) will be in the Summer of 2015.
Being 7th is not the best interests of the club.
At the moment I think we're losing more with Moyes in charge than a caretaker. Do we need 6 more years of this shite? What has you convinced that Moyes has to be United manager bar Fergie recommendation and 6 years contract?