Support David Moyes thread

[bishblaize]

Again, the man hasn't been totally without fault, but I refuse to believe our problems this season have solely been down to him. It's absolutely naive to think so.

I agree that the problems have not been all his. The squad has been unbalanced for a few years and has now reached tipping point. Every 50:50 thing has gone against him - such as our best player, DDG, making his one mistake of the season in the last minute vs Sunderland. Moyes can't be blamed for that. Nor can he blamed for the disruptive injuries, or lack of form of key players, or Rio/Evra/Vidic all suddenly looking too old at once. Or indeed for the fact that all the other teams have had blinders. The team in 4th place now, City, are 6 points and three games in hand better off than then the team in 4th at this point last year. He arrived at a point when other teams all clicked.

However there are two things i think fall squarely at his feet. First is not being able to motivate the troops. I know it must be hard coming in after Fergie - but that's the job we hired him to do. If he can't do it, tough, that's football. Blaming the players, as many fans do, ignores the fact that the best managers are all good motivators. If players could motivate themselves, or were motivated simply by the pay, AVB would be the world's best coach. Its down to the manager to find a way to get those performances out of the players, and he hasn't been able to do that.

The other is his repeated insistence on using tactics that don't work. We've spent all season with a back four sitting deep and two central midfielders sitting deep, leaving the attacking four to do all the work by themselves. Indeed its not unusual to be attacking a team, at home, with more players in our half than theirs. Now maybe that's the limitations of the squad rather than his choice of tactics - but you have to deal with what you have. A good manager would find a way to play that matched the resources he had available to him, at least for the short term.

The questions then are a) how much do those two things contribute to our car crash season and b) would they disappear next season?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I agree that the problems have not been all his. The squad has been unbalanced for a few years and has now reached tipping point. Every 50:50 thing has gone against him - such as our best player, DDG, making his one mistake of the season in the last minute vs Sunderland. Moyes can't be blamed for that. Nor can he blamed for the disruptive injuries, or lack of form of key players, or Rio/Evra/Vidic all suddenly looking too old at once. Or indeed for the fact that all the other teams have had blinders. The team in 4th place now, City, are 6 points and three games in hand better off than then the team in 4th at this point last year. He arrived at a point when other teams all clicked.

However there are two things i think fall squarely at his feet. First is not being able to motivate the troops. I know it must be hard coming in after Fergie - but that's the job we hired him to do. If he can't do it, tough, that's football. Blaming the players, as many fans do, ignores the fact that the best managers are all good motivators. If players could motivate themselves, or were motivated simply by the pay, AVB would be the world's best coach. Its down to the manager to find a way to get those performances out of the players, and he hasn't been able to do that.

The other is his repeated insistence on using tactics that don't work. We've spent all season with a back four sitting deep and two central midfielders sitting deep, leaving the attacking four to do all the work by themselves. Indeed its not unusual to be attacking a team, at home, with more players in our half than theirs. Now maybe that's the limitations of the squad rather than his choice of tactics - but you have to deal with what you have. A good manager would find a way to play that matched the resources he had available to him, at least for the short term.

The questions then are a) how much do those two things contribute to our car crash season and b) would they disappear next season?

I think that's a very balanced post.

Re a) I would say a lot.

Re b) feck knows. Not impossible but does seem unlikely.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I agree that the problems have not been all his. The squad has been unbalanced for a few years and has now reached tipping point. Every 50:50 thing has gone against him - such as our best player, DDG, making his one mistake of the season in the last minute vs Sunderland. Moyes can't be blamed for that. Nor can he blamed for the disruptive injuries, or lack of form of key players, or Rio/Evra/Vidic all suddenly looking too old at once. Or indeed for the fact that all the other teams have had blinders. The team in 4th place now, City, are 6 points and three games in hand better off than then the team in 4th at this point last year. He arrived at a point when other teams all clicked.

The other way of looking at that though is that we played such an inane game of football for the 120 minutes preceeding that (not looking for a second goal with any sort of conviction, wasting time within the first 90 minutes - seemingly playing for extra time, sitting further back in injury time - inviting Sunderland onto us, or even not making substitutions that were conducive to a penalty shoot-out) then you could easily apportion some blame to Moyes for us getting into a situation where that mistake nearly took us out of the cup (and it didn't to be fair).

True some of those decisions might have been taken by the players on them pitch themselves (like the time-wasting nonsense) but if that's so, then equally, Moyes should have put a stop to it.

 

[Revan]

No wonder United fans have a reputation for being spoilt.

Staggering.

Now the reputation is changing to 'deluded' though.

 

[Comsmit]

I feel tomorrow night will be the start of the 'Moyes era'. He, and the players, are in desperate need of a true United-like comeback, one which galvanises the entire club. There are echoes of the famous 1984 comeback against Barcelona in this Olympiacos tie, when everyone felt we were dead and buried after a 2-0 away loss but a raucous home crowd dragged us over the line.

The "Moyes era" started when he was appointed mate, and its been defined so far by a catalouge of mistakes and failures. An era doesn't suddenly start when we pick up a good result. It takes consistency.

Also this is nothing comparable to Barcelona 84. They had Maradona in their ranks and were one of the finest club sides in Europe. This is Olympiakos 2014, a team widely considered to be the weakest of the 16 sides that remained in the knockout phase. We should be moving past them with relative ease and if we do win tonight it isn't some precious "start of an era" its simply achieving the minimum expectations set by the club.

And pipe down with the spoilt United supporter line will you. The only thing staggering is the fact you seem to consider your raving blind optimism as some kind of standard a United supporter must adhere to. People have a right to be pissed with what they see before their eyes. It is ridiculously pathetic.

 

[Red_Aaron]

still want the guy to succeed but I really struggle to see that happening. it feels to me like so many of the players are almost refusing to perform for him which means either a huge clear out/recruitment drive or sacking him. the cheaper and probably less disruptive option will always be the latter. I think they'll give him the start of next season though so it's a huge summer for him, he has to get everyone back on side and restore their confidence and belief. That wont be easy particularly with the world cup disrupting pre-season

just as an aside. Its been odd on here this season, it may be my paranoia and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular but sometimes I get the impression people are slagging him for no good reason almost as if they're enjoying the mess were in. Moyes is by no means blameless but a lot of stuff on here is so far removed from criticism it can only be called abuse. That feels so odd to me, why would you abuse anyone associated with your club? He's doing his best, getting this job must be the best thing that's happened to him in the game he wouldn't have set out to fail would he! Some of the things thrown at him on here just don't sit right and makes me want to defend him all the more. Should he ultimately be moved on they'll be no hard feelings from me. He's carried himself and represented the club well throughout imo

 

[togg]

still want the guy to succeed but I really struggle to see that happening. it feels to me like so many of the players are almost refusing to perform for him which means either a huge clear out/recruitment drive or sacking him. the cheaper and probably less disruptive option will always be the latter. I think they'll give him the start of next season though so it's a huge summer for him, he has to get everyone back on side and restore their confidence and belief. That wont be easy particularly with the world cup disrupting pre-season

just as an aside. Its been odd on here this season, it may be my paranoia and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular but sometimes I get the impression people are slagging him for no good reason almost as if they're enjoying the mess were in. Moyes is by no means blameless but a lot of stuff on here is so far removed from criticism it can only be called abuse. That feels so odd to me, why would you abuse anyone associated with your club? He's doing his best, getting this job must be the best thing that's happened to him in the game he wouldn't have set out to fail would he! Some of the things thrown at him on here just don't sit right and makes me want to defend him all the more. Should he ultimately be moved on they'll be no hard feelings from me. He's carried himself and represented the club well throughout imo

Well, I don't think Moyes is blamesless either and unfortunately, the further we travel down this mediocre route the more blame he is going to shoulder. It's happened at all clubs. Ultimately the buck stops with the manager...and if the team are doing badly, he is answerable because he's paid to be so. Simples...

 

[Red_Aaron]

Well, I don't think Moyes is blamesless either and unfortunately, the further we travel down this mediocre route the more blame he is going to shoulder. It's happened at all clubs. Ultimately the buck stops with the manager...and if the team are doing badly, he is answerable because he's paid to be so. Simples...

Oh absolutely. If the players aren't up for it its his job to make them. However surely we can at least expect an element of professional pride from our players and even if they don't like Moyes they should be trying their best to at least compete in important games. Too many players have slept walked through games this season now at best you could say they are struggling with Moyes' instructions, at worst it could be far more sinister motives

 

[LR7]

The "Moyes era" started when he was appointed mate, and its been defined so far by a catalouge of mistakes and failures. An era doesn't suddenly start when we pick up a good result. It takes consistency.

Also this is nothing comparable to Barcelona 84. They had Maradona in their ranks and were one of the finest club sides in Europe. This is Olympiakos 2014, a team widely considered to be the weakest of the 16 sides that remained in the knockout phase. We should be moving past them with relative ease and if we do win tonight it isn't some precious "start of an era" its simply achieving the minimum expectations set by the club.

And pipe down with the spoilt United supporter line will you. The only thing staggering is the fact you seem to consider your raving blind optimism as some kind of standard a United supporter must adhere to. People have a right to be pissed with what they see before their eyes. It is ridiculously pathetic.

Agree with this post. Back in November/December I admired nahealai's optimism. Even if we win this game it shouldn't be some amazing achievement. This team with this squad should be beating Olympiakos. It'll be yet another false dawn.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Agree with this post. Back in November/December I admired nahealai's optimism. Even if we win this game it shouldn't be some amazing achievement. This team with this squad should be beating Olympiakos. It'll be yet another false dawn.

Trying to work out who is more deluded now, Moyes or nahealai?

 

[adexkola]

I feel tomorrow night will be the start of the 'Moyes era'. He, and the players, are in desperate need of a true United-like comeback, one which galvanises the entire club. There are echoes of the famous 1984 comeback against Barcelona in this Olympiacos tie, when everyone felt we were dead and buried after a 2-0 away loss but a raucous home crowd dragged us over the line.

I am confident we'll progress tomorrow (probably after extra-time) and we'll go into the Derby on a high. City are not playing very well and another passionate home crowd, coupled with the bouyant dressing-room after progressing in Europe, will give us every chance.

I wasn't wholly sold on him last May when he was announced, but I've been impressed with how he's met the challenge of being United manager with class and dignity. Lesser men would have exploded publicly long ago. He's not been without fault (bizarre team selections, poor substitutions and questionable managerial decisions - I feel he should have given Vidic the boot in January, for one) but he is learning, too. People speak of United being in 'transition' but lest we forget that Moyes is in transition himself, if we apply the same reasoning.

The flak the man has taken, even from our own, has been abysmal and the more criticism he receives, the more I want him to succeed. He's been left a bad hand: three of the first-choice four defenders knew they were off at the end of the season and best days far behind them, the midfield fiasco was scarcely believable for a club of United's stature, and the team, which was too reliant on wing-play introduced by the previous management team, has absolute shite wingers. We were incredibly lucky last season that our rivals collectively had 'mares. I refuse to believe our squad was justifiably eleven points better than any of the rest of the teams in the league. That statistic was an anomaly but it's a statistic which has been used as a stick to beat Moyes with.

Again, the man hasn't been totally without fault, but I refuse to believe our problems this season have solely been down to him. It's absolutely naive to think so.

Aye. I'm with you.

Until he is sacked

 

[LR7]

Trying to work out who is more deluded now, Moyes or nahealai?

I don't think he's deluded just a hopeless optimist. People on here have reached their 'breaking point' with Moyes at different times. Fulham was the final straw for me. I lost all faith that he could turn things around here at that game. For others it was earlier games against Newcastle and Everton, some Olympiakos and a few are still clinging on after the Liverpool shambles.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I don't think he's deluded just a hopeless optimist. People on here have reached their 'breaking point' with Moyes at different times. Fulham was the final straw for me. I lost all faith that he could turn things around here at that game. For others it was earlier games against Newcastle and Everton, some Olympiakos and a few are still clinging on after the Liverpool shambles.

In fairness that is just another way of saying someone is deluded. But anyway I just found that post cringeworthy, Moyes has had so many false dawns and so many different starts to the "Moyes Era", it's actually quite irritable.

 

[RedRover]

The other way of looking at that though is that we played such an inane game of football for the 120 minutes preceeding that (not looking for a second goal with any sort of conviction, wasting time within the first 90 minutes - seemingly playing for extra time, sitting further back in injury time - inviting Sunderland onto us, or even not making substitutions that were conducive to a penalty shoot-out) then you could easily apportion some blame to Moyes for us getting into a situation where that mistake nearly took us out of the cup (and it didn't to be fair).

True some of those decisions might have been taken by the players on them pitch themselves (like the time-wasting nonsense) but if that's so, then equally, Moyes should have put a stop to it.

He put out a side that should have battered Sunderland that night - so I'm not sure how the players consistently escape criticism.

Moyes may not have what it takes tactically to take us forward, or maintain the standards Fergie set, but he put a side out that night which should have won the game.

This season, without the Fergie safety blanket more than a few look like they cant handle the pressure. Plenty of players have the ability to be top players, but not all have the Character when the pressure is really on. In the past, win or lose, the players could be confident the club would be back up there next year, and that Fergie would protect them from criticism. They no longer have that.

Moyes hasnt helped himself, and may be tactically naive. But some of the perfromances from well paid, supposedly United class players has been dreadful this year. At some stage they need to stand up and be counted, instead of looking for excuses, or trying to come up woth some spurious criticism of the manager's/backroom teams coaching methods.

The "armchair Mourinho" fans can bang on all they like about tactics - but the likes of Rooney and RVP (both consistently being deployed in their "best" positions) need to start performing consistently. That would be the difference in a lot of games - as it was last year.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He put out a side that should have battered Sunderland that night - so I'm not sure how the players consistently escape criticism.

Moyes may not have what it takes tactically to take us forward, or maintain the standards Fergie set, but he put a side out that night which should have won the game.

This season, without the Fergie safety blanket more than a few look like they cant handle the pressure. Plenty of players have the ability to be top players, but not all have the Character when the pressure is really on. In the past, win or lose, the players could be confident the club would be back up there next year, and that Fergie would protect them from criticism. They no longer have that.

Moyes hasnt helped himself, and may be tactically naive. But some of the perfromances from well paid, supposedly United class players has been dreadful this year. At some stage they need to stand up and be counted, instead of looking for excuses, or trying to come up woth some spurious criticism of the manager's/backroom teams coaching methods.

That side should have beaten Sunderland - but the point I'm making was that there were far too many stupid things done in the lead up to DDG's howler that made the howler a possibility in the first place.

The players were certainly to blame, but so was Moyes for not sorting his/the teams shit out. We were wasting time at 1-0 up before Extra Time had even begun... what the feck was that all about?! Stupid from the players certainly, but then I didn't see Moyes losing it with them and barking instructions at them to get forward.

 

[pocco]

Is it just myself and nahealai left?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

As always I'll support David as long as he's our manager. The media hysteria and negative fans is helping the situation going into games - and there's another thread out there with people saying they hope we lose so that what they want to happen might happen - I think that's disgraceful for a supporter.

Lets hope for a good performance and result tonight and vs West Ham. City at home is another chance for Moyes and the players to prove themselves vs a good side, lets hope we go into it in good form and see something good that we haven't seen enough this season

 

[Sarni]

I feel tomorrow night will be the start of the 'Moyes era'. He, and the players, are in desperate need of a true United-like comeback, one which galvanises the entire club. There are echoes of the famous 1984 comeback against Barcelona in this Olympiacos tie, when everyone felt we were dead and buried after a 2-0 away loss but a raucous home crowd dragged us over the line.

I am confident we'll progress tomorrow (probably after extra-time) and we'll go into the Derby on a high. City are not playing very well and another passionate home crowd, coupled with the bouyant dressing-room after progressing in Europe, will give us every chance.

I wasn't wholly sold on him last May when he was announced, but I've been impressed with how he's met the challenge of being United manager with class and dignity. Lesser men would have exploded publicly long ago. He's not been without fault (bizarre team selections, poor substitutions and questionable managerial decisions - I feel he should have given Vidic the boot in January, for one) but he is learning, too. People speak of United being in 'transition' but lest we forget that Moyes is in transition himself, if we apply the same reasoning.

The flak the man has taken, even from our own, has been abysmal and the more criticism he receives, the more I want him to succeed. He's been left a bad hand: three of the first-choice four defenders knew they were off at the end of the season and best days far behind them, the midfield fiasco was scarcely believable for a club of United's stature, and the team, which was too reliant on wing-play introduced by the previous management team, has absolute shite wingers. We were incredibly lucky last season that our rivals collectively had 'mares. I refuse to believe our squad was justifiably eleven points better than any of the rest of the teams in the league. That statistic was an anomaly but it's a statistic which has been used as a stick to beat Moyes with.

Again, the man hasn't been totally without fault, but I refuse to believe our problems this season have solely been down to him. It's absolutely naive to think so.

You can sense that Moyes era has already begun when beating Olympiakos should be considered a huge achievement.

Hope it ends soon.

 

[RedRover]

That side should have beaten Sunderland - but the point I'm making was that there were far too many stupid things done in the lead up to DDG's howler that made the howler a possibility in the first place.

The players were certainly to blame, but so was Moyes for not sorting his/the teams shit out. We were wasting time at 1-0 up before Extra Time had even begun... what the feck was that all about?! Stupid from the players certainly, but then I didn't see Moyes losing it with them and barking instructions at them to get forward.

I'm not sure why you think every little thing the players do is dictated by the manager. They're not robots - players get instructions but play on instinct. Certain players might be tasked with man marking a player, or staying in their own half - but the best players, the Rooney's and RVP's who have the team set up around them will be told to go out and do what they do best.

Your critisim of Moyes seems to be that he wasnt going apeshit on the side lines. I'm not sure how that helps him. He is clearly (given the commenst he makes and the fact that he isnt overly critical of the players - even when they deserve it) suggests that it isnt his management style.

As I've said, he has been rightly criticised tactically this year. But sometimes there is little you can do when you send good players out and they just dont perform, or make mistakes. He has a team which in most positions picks itself - rather than a squad with real stregth in depth in key areas that other top European sides have, so its also not always easy to change things round.

At the end of the day I've watched a great deal of games this year and been distinctly unimpressed with players who should be performing better. Maybe they just dont want to play for him, which is dissapointing, because if you go down that route of pandering to the players, who knows where you end up.

 

[Successful]

I'm with Moyes.

 

[togg]

Oh absolutely. If the players aren't up for it its his job to make them. However surely we can at least expect an element of professional pride from our players and even if they don't like Moyes they should be trying their best to at least compete in important games. Too many players have slept walked through games this season now at best you could say they are struggling with Moyes' instructions, at worst it could be far more sinister motives

What I feel, is that if they don't want to play for the manager, then they dam well ought to play for the fans, who pay good money to see them, keeping in the life they have become accoustomed to and giving them riches that pretty much mean that when they retire they won't really have to work again!!

 

[Kag]

He put out a side that should have battered Sunderland that night - so I'm not sure how the players consistently escape criticism.

Moyes may not have what it takes tactically to take us forward, or maintain the standards Fergie set, but he put a side out that night which should have won the game.

This season, without the Fergie safety blanket more than a few look like they cant handle the pressure. Plenty of players have the ability to be top players, but not all have the Character when the pressure is really on. In the past, win or lose, the players could be confident the club would be back up there next year, and that Fergie would protect them from criticism. They no longer have that.

Moyes hasnt helped himself, and may be tactically naive. But some of the perfromances from well paid, supposedly United class players has been dreadful this year. At some stage they need to stand up and be counted, instead of looking for excuses, or trying to come up woth some spurious criticism of the manager's/backroom teams coaching methods.

The "armchair Mourinho" fans can bang on all they like about tactics - but the likes of Rooney and RVP (both consistently being deployed in their "best" positions) need to start performing consistently. That would be the difference in a lot of games - as it was last year.

There's nothing "armchair" about this discussion. The best teams are the ones that are coached by imaginative coaches with a penchant for attacking, creative and entertaining football. Liverpool have barely improved upon their squad from last season. Their manager and his ideals is the reason they lie in second, and our manager is the reason we lie in seventh. None of this cliched verbiage about character and so on. I've heard it enough this season and with each passing game it's exposed for the nonsense it really is.

I've read we were "outfought" on Sunday. We weren't. We were absolutely smashed to pieces by a team that is confident, instilled from up above, and incredibly well-drilled. A midfield consisting of Jordan Henderson, Joe Allen and an over the hill Steven Gerrard is currently the best one in the division. They're fantastic. It stems from the manager and his game plan. You're yet another one of these people that seems to be assaulting the professionalism of our players. Who, exactly, doesn't have character? The full squad of Champions League winners? The bloke who scored in every important game last season, leading us to the title? The bloke who was a crucial figure in a Dortmund side that won the Bundesliga double? The one who came back from shitting his pants every day and into the first team after nearly 3 years out? This "Fergie safety blanket" is yet more cliched crap, for me. They're just clueless, and you can call it spurious all day long, but the coaching methods are crucial.

Our players are not receiving the coaching required to get them out, on to the pitch, performing as a unit. I've said it since about November now and it's clear as day. It has to be, because I'll never subscribe to this squad being in as bad a shape as the awful narrative would have many believe. Our team has no divine right to beat anyone. If Sunderland under Poyet get their tactics spot on, and we don't, we'll struggle. You'd think we don't even need a manager. The players have played a part in this, but it's a near-on certainty in my opinion that as soon as these players are being coached properly the sooner we will see them back at their best.

 

[Crackers]

I'm with Moyes.

That's not going to be a successful choice..

 

[Mauzindark]

You can sense that Moyes era has already begun when beating Olympiakos should be considered a huge achievement.

Hope it ends soon.

Bravo.

 

[adexkola]

There is a "David Moyes out" thread. Can't you depressing dementors go over there? This was supposed to be an isolated tropical sunny island.

 

[Gannicus]

The "balanced" view of Moyes is simply that while he can't be blamed for everything that has gone wrong (the one De Gea mistake or the bad ref call for the pk when Sturridge dived and other unfortunate miscues) he can be blamed for the deterioration of our play since took over. The catalogue of errors is well known.

The totality of the evidence as of today does not support the conclusion that Moyes should be brought back for a second season. But if we go on to win the CL then Moyes would have a string case to present the board. I don't think us winning the CL is possible, but we've seen weak teams do it before so you never know.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I'm not sure why you think every little thing the players do is dictated by the manager. They're not robots - players get instructions but play on instinct. Certain players might be tasked with man marking a player, or staying in their own half - but the best players, the Rooney's and RVP's who have the team set up around them will be told to go out and do what they do best.

Your critisim of Moyes seems to be that he wasnt going apeshit on the side lines. I'm not sure how that helps him. He is clearly (given the commenst he makes and the fact that he isnt overly critical of the players - even when they deserve it) suggests that it isnt his management style.

No, I clearly stated that it could well have been players being morons... but if thats the case, why didn't Moyes stop them? It's because he either a) Instructed it b) was fine with it or c) wanted to, but couldn't... none of which reflect greatly on him.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Is it just myself and nahealai left?

Taken from the newbies from the OP of a thread entitled "5 signs that things are actually looking pretty good for the future!"

2. Respected, knowledgeable mains posters like Pogue Mahone, Brwned and pocco have staked their entire reputations on Moyes being the right man for the job and being able to turn it around. Do you really think they'd do that if they weren't sure!? FFS these guys know more about football than lots of Premier League managers! Why would they stand by Moyes if they'll end up looking like utter fools if he doesn't turn it around!? Newsflash: They wouldn't. So here's an idea - LISTEN TO THEM, because they know their stuff.

... it's yet to be determined whether or not he's a WUM...

 

[Mickeza]

Chesterlestreet supports him too, haven't seen him posting recently though.

 

[KeninDC]

My self-esteem issues make me sad that I'm not considered a respected poster by those on the newbie forum.

 

[Crackers]

My self-esteem issues make me sad that I'm not considered a respected poster on the newbie forum.

Edit..
I thought you had newbie access. Didn't read the post above.
I already know I'm not a respected poster.

 

[Mauzindark]

 

[bishblaize]

I'm not sure why you think every little thing the players do is dictated by the manager. They're not robots - players get instructions but play on instinct.

Two things. Firstly, where do you think that instinct comes from? It comes from the training pitch, going through the same routines again and again and again til you do it without thinking. You practice in groups til you know the runs of your colleagues so well that you do it automatically. Its like playing a musical instrument. You look at the score and your hands move without you investing your full consciousness. Its something you learn, and re-learn, something you can get better or worse at. The decisions they make are heavily influenced by the way the manager trains them all week. They don't just to go to the training pitch to get fit.

The other thing, that kind of work is on the rapid, instinctive decisions that players make in the moment, whether to release a through ball or keep it, for example. They still play within a broad framework set by the manager. The positions a manager asks them to play on the pitch determines what passes they can make or receive, which in turn determines how you attack the opposition, and defend from their attacks. If the boss asks you to play wide, and you wander off to the middle, you're in trouble. Indeed SAF's famous tea cup incident came after Strachan refused to stick to the wing after being told to play there in a European game.

Watch City 0-1 Chelsea from a few weeks ago and tell me that wasn't tactics at its finest, determined by the coach and executed with skill by the players. Of course they have license to try things. Once you're counter attacking for instance you may just go with the flow, move into space where it emerges, shoot when the time is right. But deciding whether to counter attack quickly all game or hold the ball and push out slowly; deciding whether to attack by crossing from the wings or playing through balls through the middle; deciding whether to push or be patient; the manager determines all of those, by the players he picks, the training he does and the instructions he gives them before and during the game.

The very best football comes when a specific game plan is put in place by the manager that suits the strengths and weaknesses of the squad and the opposition, and gives the players license to work flexibly in the parameters of that plan in a way that suits their strengths.

Looking at United this year, Moyes keeps making the same decisions, which aren't working. His central midfielders always sit deep, spending more than half their time in their own half, even at home. That's fine, depending on how else you play on the pitch. But if you then try and stretch the game in the opposition half, and ask RvP to spend all his time right up top, you end up with huge gaps between our own players. That makes passes more and more likely to get picked off by the opposition. That in turn frustrates the players, who then try riskier and riskier things (like Rooney) that don't come off, or just play it safe every time (Cleverley, Young) and frustrate the fans.

Of course that's not the whole story for the season. There wasn't a single reason I had toast for breakfast, so there certainly isn't a single reason for the complex and drastic decline of a multi-million pound club comprising 25+ highly tuned and trained human beings. But when a team is performing badly, you have to find a way to play that they're comfy with and that suits their strengths.

 

[Revan]

Taken from the newbies from the OP of a thread entitled "5 signs that things are actually looking pretty good for the future!"



... it's yet to be determined whether or not he's a WUM...

Has Brwned been on 'Moyes in 4eva' camp? I don't think so. In fact, he was against him and didn't rate him at all, but like the rest of us, he hoped that SAF had seen something on him that the rest of us haven't. However I don't remember him defending Moyes in any case.

Basically it is pocco, Eyepopper, chesterleestreet, Pogue, datura, AlwaysRedwood, Stack, Pogue, nahelai, adexkola, Drummer (who is SAF himself), Tomalonge and probably a few others that I don't remember by name. I would call only chesterleestreet as knowledgable for football, though in this case is totally wrong

 

[Stobzilla]

Has Brwned been on 'Moyes in 4eva' camp? I don't think so. In fact, he was against him and didn't rate him at all, but like the rest of us, he hoped that SAF had seen something on him that the rest of us haven't. However I don't remember him defending Moyes in any case.

Basically it is pocco, Eyepopper, chesterleestreet, datura, AlwaysRedwood, Stack, Pogue, nahelai, adexkola, Drummer (who is SAF himself), Tomalonge and probably a few others that I don't remember by name.

I'm offended.

 

[Revan]

I'm offended.

You're in Moyes in? I know you but seriously don't remember many posts of you defending him. You need to raise up your game.

 

[Stobzilla]

I've painted my face up Mel Gibson style and i'm about to show you my arse.

That'll learn you to pay attention.

 

[Revan]

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Has Brwned been on 'Moyes in 4eva' camp? I don't think so. In fact, he was against him and didn't rate him at all, but like the rest of us, he hoped that SAF had seen something on him that the rest of us haven't. However I don't remember him defending Moyes in any case.

Basically it is pocco, Eyepopper, chesterleestreet, Pogue, datura, AlwaysRedwood, Stack, Pogue, nahelai, adexkola, Drummer (who is SAF himself), Tomalonge and probably a few others that I don't remember by name. I would call only chesterleestreet as knowledgable for football, though in this case is totally wrong

Pogue isn't Pro-Moyes (in fact, fairly sure he said recently he doesn't hold much faith in him at all anymore - or something to that extent)... he's just anti-shit criticisms of Moyes... which is fair enough

Unsure about adexkola and popper as well?

 

[Still ill]

I feel tomorrow night will be the start of the 'Moyes era'. He, and the players, are in desperate need of a true United-like comeback, one which galvanises the entire club. There are echoes of the famous 1984 comeback against Barcelona in this Olympiacos tie, when everyone felt we were dead and buried after a 2-0 away loss but a raucous home crowd dragged us over the line.

I am confident we'll progress tomorrow (probably after extra-time) and we'll go into the Derby on a high. City are not playing very well and another passionate home crowd, coupled with the bouyant dressing-room after progressing in Europe, will give us every chance.

I wasn't wholly sold on him last May when he was announced, but I've been impressed with how he's met the challenge of being United manager with class and dignity. Lesser men would have exploded publicly long ago. He's not been without fault (bizarre team selections, poor substitutions and questionable managerial decisions - I feel he should have given Vidic the boot in January, for one) but he is learning, too. People speak of United being in 'transition' but lest we forget that Moyes is in transition himself, if we apply the same reasoning.

The flak the man has taken, even from our own, has been abysmal and the more criticism he receives, the more I want him to succeed. He's been left a bad hand: three of the first-choice four defenders knew they were off at the end of the season and best days far behind them, the midfield fiasco was scarcely believable for a club of United's stature, and the team, which was too reliant on wing-play introduced by the previous management team, has absolute shite wingers. We were incredibly lucky last season that our rivals collectively had 'mares. I refuse to believe our squad was justifiably eleven points better than any of the rest of the teams in the league. That statistic was an anomaly but it's a statistic which has been used as a stick to beat Moyes with.

Again, the man hasn't been totally without fault, but I refuse to believe our problems this season have solely been down to him. It's absolutely naive to think so.

What I wouldn't give for a night like that, buddy, but I see few echoes other than the fact that we're 2-0 down. We were sitting top of the pile domestically and more pertinantly, had a genuine leader of men playing out of his skin that night. Rooney is as close as we have to a Robbo at the moment. I'm a fan of Wayne's but I don't know if he can inspire those around him the way Robson did that night.

Anyhow, we were dumped out in the next round by Juve and collapsed in the league from there on so I don't know if we want to link ourselves too tightly to that admittedly wonderful night.

But hey, it was possibly my favourite night in my 27 years as a red. If we can grab a bit of that stardust tonight, why not.