Support David Moyes thread

There's nothing "armchair" about this discussion. The best teams are the ones that are coached by imaginative coaches with a penchant for attacking, creative and entertaining football. Liverpool have barely improved upon their squad from last season. Their manager and his ideals is the reason they lie in second, and our manager is the reason we lie in seventh. None of this cliched verbiage about character and so on. I've heard it enough this season and with each passing game it's exposed for the nonsense it really is.

I've read we were "outfought" on Sunday. We weren't. We were absolutely smashed to pieces by a team that is confident, instilled from up above, and incredibly well-drilled. A midfield consisting of Jordan Henderson, Joe Allen and an over the hill Steven Gerrard is currently the best one in the division. They're fantastic. It stems from the manager and his game plan. You're yet another one of these people that seems to be assaulting the professionalism of our players. Who, exactly, doesn't have character? The full squad of Champions League winners? The bloke who scored in every important game last season, leading us to the title? The bloke who was a crucial figure in a Dortmund side that won the Bundesliga double? The one who came back from shitting his pants every day and into the first team after nearly 3 years out? This "Fergie safety blanket" is yet more cliched crap, for me. They're just clueless, and you can call it spurious all day long, but the coaching methods are crucial.

Our players are not receiving the coaching required to get them out, on to the pitch, performing as a unit. I've said it since about November now and it's clear as day. It has to be, because I'll never subscribe to this squad being in as bad a shape as the awful narrative would have many believe. Our team has no divine right to beat anyone. If Sunderland under Poyet get their tactics spot on, and we don't, we'll struggle. You'd think we don't even need a manager. The players have played a part in this, but it's a near-on certainty in my opinion that as soon as these players are being coached properly the sooner we will see them back at their best.

I'm not suggesting that Moyes is Pep Guardiola, nor that other manager are not more "imaginative". My point was that the players seem, by many, to be immune from criticism.

Its my opinion that they should take some responsibility for the way things have been going, and show a bit of fight. Too many arent performing. A lot of that could be down to Moyes, but not all of it.

The bottom line for me - these players are better than they are currenltly showing. They are willing to take the plaudits when things are going well and now need to show a bit of backbone and put in some decent peformances between now and the end of the season, regardless of who is in charge.

Moyes may not inspire them, nor excite them in the way he sets his team out - and that may need to be addressed. But I find it hard to make excuses for supposeduly top players when they perform so poorly, so regularly, look nervous and not be able to do the bgasics right.
 
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Pogue isn't Pro-Moyes (in fact, fairly sure he said recently he doesn't hold much faith in him at all anymore - or something to that extent)... he's just anti-shit criticisms of Moyes... which is fair enough

Unsure about adexkola and popper as well?
We did a mutual ignore on each other a couple of weeks ago or so. I don't know if he has made a U-turn since then, but actually he was the most vocal pro-Moyes poster here at that time. Popper isn't defending him anymore in the last weeks, though he is fast to criticize people who criticize Moyes. adex is still in.
 
No, I clearly stated that it could well have been players being morons... but if thats the case, why didn't Moyes stop them? It's because he either a) Instructed it b) was fine with it or c) wanted to, but couldn't... none of which reflect greatly on him.

He is one man sat on the sidelines - those players shouldnt need to be told what to do in a game like that in that position - they are collectively experienced, having been there lots of times before. Sometimes a manager does all he can in setting a team out and the players don't perform. It is sometimes the managers fault, but not always - that game was an example of that in my opinion.

Those players knew what they had to do, had the chance to do it and didnt - and the worst part, while not being the be all and end all, Sunderland just looked like, and played like they wanted it more. Regardless of whether Moyes tactics can be criticised - the players need to accept responsibility as well.
 
There's nothing "armchair" about this discussion. The best teams are the ones that are coached by imaginative coaches with a penchant for attacking, creative and entertaining football. Liverpool have barely improved upon their squad from last season. Their manager and his ideals is the reason they lie in second, and our manager is the reason we lie in seventh. None of this cliched verbiage about character and so on. I've heard it enough this season and with each passing game it's exposed for the nonsense it really is.

I've read we were "outfought" on Sunday. We weren't. We were absolutely smashed to pieces by a team that is confident, instilled from up above, and incredibly well-drilled. A midfield consisting of Jordan Henderson, Joe Allen and an over the hill Steven Gerrard is currently the best one in the division. They're fantastic. It stems from the manager and his game plan. You're yet another one of these people that seems to be assaulting the professionalism of our players. Who, exactly, doesn't have character? The full squad of Champions League winners? The bloke who scored in every important game last season, leading us to the title? The bloke who was a crucial figure in a Dortmund side that won the Bundesliga double? The one who came back from shitting his pants every day and into the first team after nearly 3 years out? This "Fergie safety blanket" is yet more cliched crap, for me. They're just clueless, and you can call it spurious all day long, but the coaching methods are crucial.

Our players are not receiving the coaching required to get them out, on to the pitch, performing as a unit. I've said it since about November now and it's clear as day. It has to be, because I'll never subscribe to this squad being in as bad a shape as the awful narrative would have many believe. Our team has no divine right to beat anyone. If Sunderland under Poyet get their tactics spot on, and we don't, we'll struggle. You'd think we don't even need a manager. The players have played a part in this, but it's a near-on certainty in my opinion that as soon as these players are being coached properly the sooner we will see them back at their best.

Told how it is. How it should be.

Go the feck on Kag.
 
Two things. Firstly, where do you think that instinct comes from? It comes from the training pitch, going through the same routines again and again and again til you do it without thinking. You practice in groups til you know the runs of your colleagues so well that you do it automatically. Its like playing a musical instrument. You look at the score and your hands move without you investing your full consciousness. Its something you learn, and re-learn, something you can get better or worse at. The decisions they make are heavily influenced by the way the manager trains them all week. They don't just to go to the training pitch to get fit.

The other thing, that kind of work is on the rapid, instinctive decisions that players make in the moment, whether to release a through ball or keep it, for example. They still play within a broad framework set by the manager. The positions a manager asks them to play on the pitch determines what passes they can make or receive, which in turn determines how you attack the opposition, and defend from their attacks. If the boss asks you to play wide, and you wander off to the middle, you're in trouble. Indeed SAF's famous tea cup incident came after Strachan refused to stick to the wing after being told to play there in a European game.

Watch City 0-1 Chelsea from a few weeks ago and tell me that wasn't tactics at its finest, determined by the coach and executed with skill by the players. Of course they have license to try things. Once you're counter attacking for instance you may just go with the flow, move into space where it emerges, shoot when the time is right. But deciding whether to counter attack quickly all game or hold the ball and push out slowly; deciding whether to attack by crossing from the wings or playing through balls through the middle; deciding whether to push or be patient; the manager determines all of those, by the players he picks, the training he does and the instructions he gives them before and during the game.

The very best football comes when a specific game plan is put in place by the manager that suits the strengths and weaknesses of the squad and the opposition, and gives the players license to work flexibly in the parameters of that plan in a way that suits their strengths.

Looking at United this year, Moyes keeps making the same decisions, which aren't working. His central midfielders always sit deep, spending more than half their time in their own half, even at home. That's fine, depending on how else you play on the pitch. But if you then try and stretch the game in the opposition half, and ask RvP to spend all his time right up top, you end up with huge gaps between our own players. That makes passes more and more likely to get picked off by the opposition. That in turn frustrates the players, who then try riskier and riskier things (like Rooney) that don't come off, or just play it safe every time (Cleverley, Young) and frustrate the fans.

Of course that's not the whole story for the season. There wasn't a single reason I had toast for breakfast, so there certainly isn't a single reason for the complex and drastic decline of a multi-million pound club comprising 25+ highly tuned and trained human beings. But when a team is performing badly, you have to find a way to play that they're comfy with and that suits their strengths.

Fair comment - but for me, trying to find a way to find a way to play with this squad is difficult - largely because of the number of players that he evidently wants to bring in, as well as a the number of players who will be aware that they will be moved on.

7 or 8 of this sqaud could be moved on next year - and given that the likes of Vidic, Evra and Ferdinand - all key players are pretty much sure to be gone, the loss of Scholes without adequat repalcement, Giggs probably done as well, leaves him (or indeed any manager) in a diffcult position. Add to that the hand ful of players who probably suspect they may be for the chop given the players we have been linked with, I sympathise with his position.

Managers generally come in to a club and bring a few players in early doors and move out what they dont want. They can then hopefully instill a style to build on long term.

Here, Moyes and the club seem to know what needed to be done - then didnt do it last summer, leaving him planning for next summer even before the season started with a squad half of which he might not rate.
 
If Moyes is not the problem and the squad needs mayor improvements does this mean that our current squad is as good as last years Everton one ?
 
If Moyes is not the problem and the squad needs mayor improvements does this mean that our current squad is as good as last years Everton one ?

If that is aimed at me - that isn't what I'm saying and it misses the point I'm making.

A lot of people seem to want to absolve the players of blame and place it all at Moyes door - probably because they want to believe that changing Moyes puts everything right. As I've regularly said, Moyes may not be the man to move us forward, but at the very least he needs chance to do what he's clearly been brought in to do - rebuild the squad which has lost, or is shortly going to lose a good number of experienced players who have been the bedrock of the side and with a lot of trophies under their belt.

Its a tough position - trying to motivate players and get them to buy into what you want to do if they know they're away at the end of the season, or likely to be replaced and/or benched when the club go on a spending spree

The suggestion from some seems to be that the players can't be to blame because Moyes isn't doing what needs to be done on the training pitch (frankly based on nothing but rumours as nobody on here has any clue what goes on) or cant get a decent performance out of them because he doesn't know what to do tactically.

My response to that - there are a good number of players around the world who don't have the benefit of a world class manager or tactician in charge of the teams they play for but they can still perform. Players like Rooney and RVP in particular need to lead from the front and by example - they have the team pretty much set up around them. Performances this year haven't been acceptable by the high standards the better and more experienced players should set. Its not acceptable to suddenly start getting the basics wrong.

Moyes consistently got good performances from a much poorer squad at Everton and probably had them punching above their weight - especially in the early years. Martinez is getting a lot of credit, but he's got a solid Moyes side to build on - and one that didn't come with the extra job of replacing 4 or 5 players in the next year to 18 months after taking over.

Moyes may not be the man to take us forward - that much is abundantly clear, but there are also big questions to be asked about how this transition has been managed, long term, underinvestment in the squad and why some players now seem petrified, nervous and unable to turn in half decent performances.
 
Martinez is getting a lot of credit, but he's got a solid Moyes side to build on - and one that didn't come with the extra job of replacing 4 or 5 players in the next year to 18 months after taking over.

LOL Say what ?

Let's count the positions where change was needed at United and Everton :

GK - De Gea. Nuff said.
LB - Had the whole summer to fix it. Couldn't be arsed and relentlessly chased Baines before the last second dash for Coentrao.
CB (Arguably) - Phil Jones, Jonny Evans and Chris Smalling are a young core. Rio was probably among the top 3 CBs in the league last season. Meanwhile Everton had Jagielka and old man Distin with only young Stones as backup. How is United's CB situation worse than Everton's ?
RB - He inherited arguably the best RB in the league last season in Rafael. Call him and Coleman being a deuce for sake of supporting Moyes.
CM - Everton's situation was much worse than United's when Roberto sold Fellaini. He had to sell the guy and got two starters - Barry and what's his face. Moyes had the whole summer and ultimately ended up signing a player that wasn't needed for an inflated price.
W - In what world are the duo of Pienaar, Miralles > Nani, Valencia, Kagawa, Young ?
Front 2 - Martinez had to change the front 2 bringing in Lukaku and Barkley who made just 11 appearances for Moyes last season before being loaned out. How is that situation better than having two of the best in the world with RVP, top scorer in the league last term and Wayne ?

On top of that Moyes spend 70 million and Martinez was afforded no such luxury. Baffles my mind when people suggest Moyes inherited a shower of shite while Martinez was walking into football utopia.
 
LOL Say what ?

Let's count the positions where change was needed at United and Everton :

GK - De Gea. Nuff said.
LB - Had the whole summer to fix it. Couldn't be arsed and relentlessly chased Baines before the last second dash for Coentrao.
CB (Arguably) - Phil Jones, Jonny Evans and Chris Smalling are a young core. Rio was probably among the top 3 CBs in the league last season. Meanwhile Everton had Jagielka and old man Distin with only young Stones as backup. How is United's CB situation worse than Everton's ?
RB - He inherited arguably the best RB in the league last season in Rafael. Call him and Coleman being a deuce for sake of supporting Moyes.
CM - Everton's situation was much worse than United's when Roberto sold Fellaini. He had to sell the guy and got two starters - Barry and what's his face. Moyes had the whole summer and ultimately ended up signing a player that wasn't needed for an inflated price.
W - In what world are the duo of Pienaar, Miralles > Nani, Valencia, Kagawa, Young ?
Front 2 - Martinez had to change the front 2 bringing in Lukaku and Barkley who made just 11 appearances for Moyes last season before being loaned out. How is that situation better than having two of the best in the world with RVP, top scorer in the league last term and Wayne ?

On top of that Moyes spend 70 million and Martinez was afforded no such luxury. Baffles my mind when people suggest Moyes inherited a shower of shite while Martinez was walking into football utopia.

Not that the two situations are remotely comparable, but we were on the decline when Moyes took over. No real set formation, no established first 11 and several key players coming to the end of their careers.
 
Not that the two situations are remotely comparable, but we were on the decline when Moyes took over. No real set formation, no established first 11 and several key players coming to the end of their careers.

:confused:

No real set formation ? Martinez completely overhauled their style of play and even training. Their player interviews are testament to that.
No established first 11 ? Martinez completely changed their starting striker, AM and both central mid fielders.
Key players coming to the end of their careers ? Distin is a year older than Rio, Jagielka is just a year younger than Vida, their captain Phil Neville had retired, their central midfield had Gibson and Fellaini (one of which was sold), Carrick is 32 years old ? Leon Osman is 32, Pienaar is 32, his main striker Jelavic had scored 8 goals last season, ours was the league top scorer.
And he didn't get 70 million to spend.

How is that possibly a better situation ? I just can't fathom it. Pls explain it to me. Because facts clearly suggest otherwise.
 
:confused:

No real set formation ? Martinez completely overhauled their style of play and even training. Their player interviews are testament to that.
No established first 11 ? Martinez completely changed their starting striker, AM and both central mid fielders.
Key players coming to the end of their careers ? Distin is a year older than Rio, Jagielka is just a year younger than Vida, their captain Phil Neville had retired, their central midfield had Gibson and Fellaini (one of which was sold), Carrick is 32 years old ? Leon Osman is 32, Pienaar is 32, his main striker Jelavic had scored 8 goals last season, ours was the league top scorer.
And he didn't get 70 million to spend.

How is that possibly a better situation ? I just can't fathom it. Pls explain it to me. Because facts clearly suggest otherwise.

I couldn't care less what Everton are doing, I'm talking about United. To suggest everything was all bright and rosy before Moyes is plain stupid.
 
His little skip and run to the tunnel at half time was adorable. Bless him, he hasn't experienced being two goals up much this season.
 
LOL Say what ?

Let's count the positions where change was needed at United and Everton :

GK - De Gea. Nuff said.
LB - Had the whole summer to fix it. Couldn't be arsed and relentlessly chased Baines before the last second dash for Coentrao.
CB (Arguably) - Phil Jones, Jonny Evans and Chris Smalling are a young core. Rio was probably among the top 3 CBs in the league last season. Meanwhile Everton had Jagielka and old man Distin with only young Stones as backup. How is United's CB situation worse than Everton's ?
RB - He inherited arguably the best RB in the league last season in Rafael. Call him and Coleman being a deuce for sake of supporting Moyes.
CM - Everton's situation was much worse than United's when Roberto sold Fellaini. He had to sell the guy and got two starters - Barry and what's his face. Moyes had the whole summer and ultimately ended up signing a player that wasn't needed for an inflated price.
W - In what world are the duo of Pienaar, Miralles > Nani, Valencia, Kagawa, Young ?
Front 2 - Martinez had to change the front 2 bringing in Lukaku and Barkley who made just 11 appearances for Moyes last season before being loaned out. How is that situation better than having two of the best in the world with RVP, top scorer in the league last term and Wayne ?

On top of that Moyes spend 70 million and Martinez was afforded no such luxury. Baffles my mind when people suggest Moyes inherited a shower of shite while Martinez was walking into football utopia.

Martinez has totally different expectations to deal with at Everton. He isn't going to lose the core of last years side this summer. They lost one last year, replaced him, loaned a forward and are pretty much where they were. They'll probably finish in a similar position this year.

Their fans will not be expecting to finish top 4. Martinez has to prove he can shop at the level Moyes did for years. He didn't do that well with Wigan and Everton need a man who can do that.

United have totally different priorities and need to shop at a totally different level - it's not about comparing United and Everton - it's about comparing United with City, Chelsea and other top English and European sides.

Replacing Ferdinand, Vidic, Giggs, Scholes, Evra and perhaps add players out wide is a totally different job - under much bigger pressure than he was ever under at Everton. A lot of people want to see him fail, the press love a "post-Fergie" disaster story - it's a big a job as any one in football can get.

He's also got to deal with what happens when numerous big personalities leave which will clearly cause disruption in the club.

Martinez has had a decent start. They play pretty football - which got Wigan relegated last year being substance over style. Will he take Everton on? We'll see, but its early days - and he has the bonus of Everton's relatively meagre ambitions but needs to keep them where Moyes had them to be succesful.

Regarding previous points - I wanted to see was some spirit from the players and tonight I saw that. Fair play. Last year we went a long way with Rooney & RVP in good form for a lot of the season - papering over cracks elsewhere - and that should be enough in a lot of games.
 
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Still think he isn't good enough, still think he's doomed, still think this game shouldn't change anyone's opinions, but...

You'd need a heart of stone not to feel happy for Moyes tonight. Under massive pressure, he got key selections right and got his reward.
 
I don't think he's doomed at all though. Results like tonight will blindly convince the board that he can step up, when in actual fact beating Olympiakos over two legs is the minimum standard required of a United manager. Perceptions and standards have been skewed and lowered respectively this season and I fully expect the board to see this as some sort of signal Moyes is the real deal.

We haven't played a really top side in Europe yet, just some decent ones. The acid test will come in the next round and that will reveal his real standard.
 
Funny enough, was SAF a cup final away from being sacked at one stage! :D
 
:lol:

Has Brwned been on 'Moyes in 4eva' camp? I don't think so. In fact, he was against him and didn't rate him at all, but like the rest of us, he hoped that SAF had seen something on him that the rest of us haven't. However I don't remember him defending Moyes in any case.

Basically it is pocco, Eyepopper, chesterleestreet, Pogue, datura, AlwaysRedwood, Stack, Pogue, nahelai, adexkola, Drummer (who is SAF himself), Tomalonge and probably a few others that I don't remember by name. I would call only chesterleestreet as knowledgable for football, though in this case is totally wrong :p
I am similar to Pogue. I am not pro Moyes, I just argue against the shit anti Moyes arguments that are based on assumption and inaccurate facts.
 
I am similar to Pogue. I am not pro Moyes, I just argue against the shit anti Moyes arguments that are based on assumption and inaccurate facts.

And also something to be truly against are the childish insults that have been thrown at him all season long. It's absolutely ok to want him gone but he surely doesn't deserve to be personally insulted.
 
There's nothing "armchair" about this discussion. The best teams are the ones that are coached by imaginative coaches with a penchant for attacking, creative and entertaining football. Liverpool have barely improved upon their squad from last season. Their manager and his ideals is the reason they lie in second, and our manager is the reason we lie in seventh. None of this cliched verbiage about character and so on. I've heard it enough this season and with each passing game it's exposed for the nonsense it really is.

I've read we were "outfought" on Sunday. We weren't. We were absolutely smashed to pieces by a team that is confident, instilled from up above, and incredibly well-drilled. A midfield consisting of Jordan Henderson, Joe Allen and an over the hill Steven Gerrard is currently the best one in the division. They're fantastic. It stems from the manager and his game plan. You're yet another one of these people that seems to be assaulting the professionalism of our players. Who, exactly, doesn't have character? The full squad of Champions League winners? The bloke who scored in every important game last season, leading us to the title? The bloke who was a crucial figure in a Dortmund side that won the Bundesliga double? The one who came back from shitting his pants every day and into the first team after nearly 3 years out? This "Fergie safety blanket" is yet more cliched crap, for me. They're just clueless, and you can call it spurious all day long, but the coaching methods are crucial.

Our players are not receiving the coaching required to get them out, on to the pitch, performing as a unit. I've said it since about November now and it's clear as day. It has to be, because I'll never subscribe to this squad being in as bad a shape as the awful narrative would have many believe. Our team has no divine right to beat anyone. If Sunderland under Poyet get their tactics spot on, and we don't, we'll struggle. You'd think we don't even need a manager. The players have played a part in this, but it's a near-on certainty in my opinion that as soon as these players are being coached properly the sooner we will see them back at their best.

I love your posts, am I allowed to say something so pointless on the forum? everything you write always mirror's my own thoughts.
 
I'm not suggesting that Moyes is Pep Guardiola, nor that other manager are not more "imaginative". My point was that the players seem, by many, to be immune from criticism.
.

By some. Not by others. Games like today make me say, "what in the feck have you been doing all season?" There are clearly many on the squad who don't want to play for Moyes. And Moyes is clueless. That's the only way you end up with a team full of this many quality players in 7th. It's a combination of problems.
 
If that is aimed at me - that isn't what I'm saying and it misses the point I'm making.

A lot of people seem to want to absolve the players of blame and place it all at Moyes door - probably because they want to believe that changing Moyes puts everything right. As I've regularly said, Moyes may not be the man to move us forward, but at the very least he needs chance to do what he's clearly been brought in to do - rebuild the squad which has lost, or is shortly going to lose a good number of experienced players who have been the bedrock of the side and with a lot of trophies under their belt.

Its a tough position - trying to motivate players and get them to buy into what you want to do if they know they're away at the end of the season, or likely to be replaced and/or benched when the club go on a spending spree

The suggestion from some seems to be that the players can't be to blame because Moyes isn't doing what needs to be done on the training pitch (frankly based on nothing but rumours as nobody on here has any clue what goes on) or cant get a decent performance out of them because he doesn't know what to do tactically.

My response to that - there are a good number of players around the world who don't have the benefit of a world class manager or tactician in charge of the teams they play for but they can still perform. Players like Rooney and RVP in particular need to lead from the front and by example - they have the team pretty much set up around them. Performances this year haven't been acceptable by the high standards the better and more experienced players should set. Its not acceptable to suddenly start getting the basics wrong.

Moyes consistently got good performances from a much poorer squad at Everton and probably had them punching above their weight - especially in the early years. Martinez is getting a lot of credit, but he's got a solid Moyes side to build on - and one that didn't come with the extra job of replacing 4 or 5 players in the next year to 18 months after taking over.

Moyes may not be the man to take us forward - that much is abundantly clear, but there are also big questions to be asked about how this transition has been managed, long term, underinvestment in the squad and why some players now seem petrified, nervous and unable to turn in half decent performances.

You may not noticing but rebuilding the squad requires about 60-200m. Now we're not City, ie we can't spend 200m, see how things turn out and if turns shit we bring a new manager and give him another 200m.
Money doesn't come out from oil wells at this side of Manchester.

Its all about trust. Do you trust Moyes enough to give him 200m? What had he ever done to deserve that? He saved Everton and brought them to a respectable position. That's the highlight of his career. However do you think that he had what it takes to take them further? Does he has what it takes to lead us to the right direction? I mean he took a team which, with all its weaknesses, was able to win the EPL title comfortably and ended up 7th place. We were nearly knocked out by fecking Olympiakos. What about his signings? 27m spent on a player who looks out of depth at United (a 40 years old did much better then him in 1 one game that he did throughout throughout the season) and another 37m on a great no 10 who Moyes insist playing him on the flank. The EPL winners + 60m worth of new talent and we're 7th
 
You may not noticing but rebuilding the squad requires about 60-200m. Now we're not City, ie we can't spend 200m, see how things turn out and if turns shit we bring a new manager and give him another 200m.
Money doesn't come out from oil wells at this side of Manchester.

Its all about trust. Do you trust Moyes enough to give him 200m? What had he ever done to deserve that? He saved Everton and brought them to a respectable position. That's the highlight of his career. However do you think that he had what it takes to take them further? Does he has what it takes to lead us to the right direction? I mean he took a team which, with all its weaknesses, was able to win the EPL title comfortably and ended up 7th place. We were nearly knocked out by fecking Olympiakos. What about his signings? 27m spent on a player who looks out of depth at United (a 40 years old did much better then him in 1 one game that he did throughout throughout the season) and another 37m on a great no 10 who Moyes insist playing him on the flank. The EPL winners + 60m worth of new talent and we're 7th

The club needs to spend big money in order to compete. Football has changed dramatically over the last decade and we dont have a nucleus of homegrown players to compete that we once had. The club seem to realise this.

At the end of the day you have to trust somebody to do the rebuilding. People will have their opinions on whether Moyes is that man, but its hard to question the calibre of players the club have been trying to bring in.

For me the fact that the club want somebody who will stick around long term and have a long term view of things going forward is precisely why they didn't go for an established name, a lot of whom move between top sides over a period of 2 or 3 years. Each time an Ancelloti, or a Van Gaal, or whomever move clubs theres a risk that a good number of the last managers players dont fit the new system and have to be sold off. That potentially neccesitates big spending every two to three years.

You have two options if you are United. Go for the left field choice or an established name. They've clearly gone for the former, which may prove not to be the right move, but I can see why they've made that choice for the long term.

I dont know why they believe he's the man - we weren't there when he spoke to the club, nor are we part of his future plans. As it is I sympathise with his position - primarily having to try and develop a style of play with a squad which is likely to be a substantially different from next year to this.

Moyes has underachieved this year. But I look at things in context. For a lot of the fans its all about this season and right now. This squad should be higher than it is, evidently - but last year we overachieved with a superb manager and other sides falling away. Clubs around United have improved and we havent addressed the issues that have been creeping in for a number of years.

People will have their opinions, and I can see why they do. I take a more long term and pragmatic view. He has been brought in to do a job and needs a chance to do it before he can be judged on style of play, and where he wants to take the side long term. he clearly isnt the finished article, nor ie he comparable to other top managers - but it was evidently an appointment with the long term in mind.
 
I am similar to Pogue. I am not pro Moyes, I just argue against the shit anti Moyes arguments that are based on assumption and inaccurate facts.
I am not anti-Moyes then. Just that argue against the shit pro Moyes arguments that are based on assumptions and inaccurate facts.
 
LOL Say what ?

Let's count the positions where change was needed at United and Everton :

GK - De Gea. Nuff said.
LB - Had the whole summer to fix it. Couldn't be arsed and relentlessly chased Baines before the last second dash for Coentrao.
CB (Arguably) - Phil Jones, Jonny Evans and Chris Smalling are a young core. Rio was probably among the top 3 CBs in the league last season. Meanwhile Everton had Jagielka and old man Distin with only young Stones as backup. How is United's CB situation worse than Everton's ?
RB - He inherited arguably the best RB in the league last season in Rafael. Call him and Coleman being a deuce for sake of supporting Moyes.
CM - Everton's situation was much worse than United's when Roberto sold Fellaini. He had to sell the guy and got two starters - Barry and what's his face. Moyes had the whole summer and ultimately ended up signing a player that wasn't needed for an inflated price.
W - In what world are the duo of Pienaar, Miralles > Nani, Valencia, Kagawa, Young ?
Front 2 - Martinez had to change the front 2 bringing in Lukaku and Barkley who made just 11 appearances for Moyes last season before being loaned out. How is that situation better than having two of the best in the world with RVP, top scorer in the league last term and Wayne ?

On top of that Moyes spend 70 million and Martinez was afforded no such luxury. Baffles my mind when people suggest Moyes inherited a shower of shite while Martinez was walking into football utopia.


youre completely simplifying the issue. the big difference lies in the fact that moyes was replacing an institution at united. it would be like waking up tomorrow and told nobody speaks the same language anymore, it was a completely alien situation which was worsened by the fact that our midfield was awful and key players just didnt have one last season in them as well as others not coming near the heights of last year. in addition, everton have completely different aims and challenges and martinez is doing about the same as moyes last year and scoring less goals while he does it.

also you completely contradict yourself by saying "couldnt be arsed and relentlessly chased baines." the words of somebody just having a moan.

youre living on paper. in the real world theres plenty of united players that hadnt been performing long before moyes came here but were carried by players who have been injured for large spells or not maintained their level.
 
The club needs to spend big money in order to compete. Football has changed dramatically over the last decade and we dont have a nucleus of homegrown players to compete that we once had. The club seem to realise this.

At the end of the day you have to trust somebody to do the rebuilding. People will have their opinions on whether Moyes is that man, but its hard to question the calibre of players the club have been trying to bring in.

For me the fact that the club want somebody who will stick around long term and have a long term view of things going forward is precisely why they didn't go for an established name, a lot of whom move between top sides over a period of 2 or 3 years. Each time an Ancelloti, or a Van Gaal, or whomever move clubs theres a risk that a good number of the last managers players dont fit the new system and have to be sold off. That potentially neccesitates big spending every two to three years.

You have two options if you are United. Go for the left field choice or an established name. They've clearly gone for the former, which may prove not to be the right move, but I can see why they've made that choice for the long term.

I dont know why they believe he's the man - we weren't there when he spoke to the club, nor are we part of his future plans. As it is I sympathise with his position - primarily having to try and develop a style of play with a squad which is likely to be a substantially different from next year to this.

Moyes has underachieved this year. But I look at things in context. For a lot of the fans its all about this season and right now. This squad should be higher than it is, evidently - but last year we overachieved with a superb manager and other sides falling away. Clubs around United have improved and we havent addressed the issues that have been creeping in for a number of years.

People will have their opinions, and I can see why they do. I take a more long term and pragmatic view. He has been brought in to do a job and needs a chance to do it before he can be judged on style of play, and where he wants to take the side long term. he clearly isnt the finished article, nor ie he comparable to other top managers - but it was evidently an appointment with the long term in mind.

The need to invest heavily in the squad is not on debate. The person who should be responsible of doing it, is.

Should we trust Moyes? He took the champions to 7th place and that after spending 60m. Many players looked to have aged considerable under him (Rio, Vidic, Carrick), his signings were uninspiring and there are rumours that players aren't happy under him. The team looked sluggish and without any signs of direction for much of the season.

His CV is hardly inspiring either. Ok he saved Everton from relegation and brought them to a respectable position. But does that alone justify his position at United? I much doubt that.

Trust is earned and its more significant for clubs like ours where money doesn't come from a hole in the ground.

And what is this obsession with long term? People stay in one place either because they are incredibly loyal or they cannot find anything better. Even our long term project and old school 'Moyesy' fecked off day 1 after United came knocking at his door. If that offer came before He would have left irrespectively if he's been at Everton for a year, two years, ten years of 20 years. The only reason he didn't left before was that no big club really wanted him.. So there's absolutely no guarantee that if Bayern come knocking at his door at this very moment he wouldn't leave. The only guarantee we have is, well, if he keeps to the trend were no other big club really wants him. Does that makes you happy? Who would you entrust with spending your money the OShea of management or the Ronaldo of management?
 
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The season has been so depressing that there's only one thing for it. Moyes to win the UCL? Oh, it's well and truly ON!
 
I'm not a fan of Moyes and think he isn't the right man for this job but yesterday I was delighted for him. With what he has put up with, he deserved that moment of happiness.
 
I'm not a fan of Moyes and think he isn't the right man for this job but yesterday I was delighted for him. With what he has put up with, he deserved that moment of happiness.

You mean, what he has brought upon himself? I'm glad for the team getting in to the quarter finals, so that now can go out to someone decent than Olympiacos. And Moyes should still go. One good game changes nothing.
 
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Can't accuse Sir of not practising what he preaches.
 
Last night to me felt like a reprieve not only for Moyes but for everyone connected with the club. It was nice to see the players actually attack with some speed and tempo and to actually see some good goalmouth action for once, it felt like a long time since we've seen play like that. RVP took his chances, Rooney put in masses of work and got an assist for the RVP 2nd goal which was nice to see and Giggs was magnificent all evening.

On the other hand however at the back we looked very very shaky indeed and most of that as so many others have quite rightly said, stems from Patrice Evra being out of position and being beaten time and time again which exposes the rest of the defence and allows our opponents to get in behind. De Gea saved us from defeat several times last night looking every bit the world class keeper we all expected him to turn into when he was signed, the moment right at the end when he caught the ball with 5 around him at a vital time emphasized how far hes come.

On the night things went well but its clear we need alot of changes, and im not sure Moyes is the right man to make those changes but last night will help.
 
The need to invest heavily in the squad is not on debate. The person who should be responsible of doing it, is.

Should we trust Moyes? He took the champions to 7th place and that after spending 60m. Many players looked to have aged considerable under him (Rio, Vidic, Carrick), his signings were uninspiring and there are rumours that players aren't happy under him. The team looked sluggish and without any signs of direction for much of the season.

His CV is hardly inspiring either. Ok he saved Everton from relegation and brought them to a respectable position. But does that alone justify his position at United? I much doubt that.

Trust is earned and its more significant for clubs like ours where money doesn't come from a hole in the ground.

And what is this obsession with long term? People stay in one place either because they are incredibly loyal or they cannot find anything better. Even our long term project and old school 'Moyesy' fecked off day 1 after United came knocking at his door. If that offer came before He would have left irrespectively if he's been at Everton for a year, two years, ten years of 20 years. The only reason he didn't left before was that no big club really wanted him.. So there's absolutely no guarantee that if Bayern come knocking at his door at this very moment he wouldn't leave. The only guarantee we have is, well, if he keeps to the trend were no other big club really wants him. Does that makes you happy? Who would you entrust with spending your money the OShea of management or the Ronaldo of management?

I appreciate that at every stage, somebody has taken a punt on even the top managers. Mourinho has been great since Porto, AVB who seemed to have a similar pedigree not so much. Barca took a punt on Guardiola. Klopp seemingly wasnt overly succesful before Dortmund. Its easy to look back afterwards and say what a great manager x or y is, but there are plenty who have been expected to succeed and haven't.

Moyes may not ever become a great manager, he may sink without trace, but the club have taken a chance on him and Fergie and whomever else must have seen something in him that they like - rather than go for an established, world class name. On that basis I'm prepared to give him a chance.

Maybe the club should go with a "Ronaldo" of management - but when you spend big money you must have immediate big returns. Ronaldo is a good example, it was clear that he wouldn't stay here long term. That is potentially the issue. Once they go, it needs a lot more investment when the next big name comes in. Maybe that is the right way to go, but I can see why the club would be concerned given how it is managed financially.
 
You mean, what he has brought upon himself? I'm glad for the team getting in to the quarter finals, so that now can go out to someone decent than Olympiacos. And Moyes should still go. One good game changes nothing.
I knew someone would pick up on that as soon as I read back my post. I agree he has bought it on himself but still, the ppint I'm making is that there is a lot of criticism his way (deserved or not) and was just nice to see a change for once.