Usually when you can see something a manager is trying to change in a team, you're willing to overlook poorer results as you can see the ends justifying the means. This is, I believe, what most were referring to being willing to wait for when saying "we'll give him time". Time to show something in the manner of playing, in his managerial style, anything really that shows potential. I'd been willing to come up with excuses for most of the season, hopeful that at some point there would come a point when you would see what was being moved towards. It's not particularly surprising then that, after our most abject performance came at home to our fiercest rivals just last Sunday, many finally gave up. Something should have been shown by now. The bad results aren't going towards anything, they're just bad results. My personal take on it anyway.
Moyes So Far!
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In the post I quoted, you said that many who once supported Moyes have turned on him because of results; I'm saying I don't think that's the case. Signs of progress is something quite different to pure results.
As for the 89/90 season, it's impossible for me to say as I was barely born. Short of watching every single Utd match and reading lots of articles and analysis pieces from that season, it's impossible for me to get a genuine sense of whether or not there was any progress that season. I think most people would agree, though, that the club had nowhere near the structure, spending power and quality in the squad that it has now.
A 'Fergie Out!' type back then could've pointed to the fact that, in the 7 seasons before he joined, we'd only finished outside of the top 4 once, in 1980/81. Otherwise we'd finished 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th.
We then finished outside of the top four in 4 of the first 5 seasons that Fergie was in charge (even if you exclude 1986/87, on the grounds that he didn't manage us the whole season, it's still three of his first four full seasons outside of the top 4, and two of them outside of the top ten). This was a clear underperformance, a decline, from what had immediately preceded him.
Again, this isn't to say that just because Fergie turned it around, Moyes will as well. It is to say that just because progress isn't obviously being made in the short term, it doesn't mean it won't ultimately be made in the medium to long term.
This. Stood out like an absolute beacon, what it's like to have creativity in the middle.
Hehe. It was our wingers fault. Gotcha. Everyone knows that Valencia and Young were consistently selected for their gung ho attacking flair, despite the lack of protection this relentless commitment to attack meant for our fullbacks.
Meanwhile, back in reality: our back four defender poorly a lot last season. As a unit and individually.
It's not as though we even had a consistent back four. Injuries meant a lot of chopping and changing, which didn't help matters. A problem that is repeating itself again this season.
We've only conceded three or four more league goals than we did at the same point last season, not much change on that front - poor last year, poor this, for a team with our ambitions anyway. The big points difference comes from lack of goals scored.
Agree completely.
Just addressing the fallacy that Fergie had our defenders playing as well last season as Mourinho has Chelsea's back four playing this season. It's arrant nonsense.
We defended poorly last season - and with key defenders another year further over the hill - the same is happening this season. Unsurprisingly.
Obviously, they're getting more exposed than Chelsea's defender because of a lack of protection from central midfield but that is also consistent, this season and last.
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You may be right; as I say it's virtually impossible for me personally to get a sense of what it was like throughout that season. If you were older, perhaps you have a sense.
What I would say is that, around that time, there was some genuine transition going on in the squad; I'll also repeat that the quality of that squad and the financial position of the club are not comparable to the situation today. Moyes supporters will often say that this squad needs an overhaul; this may be the case, but it's wrong to say that this overhaul is currently taking place. I think it's fair to say that, given how little transition there has been this season in terms of players and implementation of new tactics, the current position is far below what it should be.
He took over when we were 19th in his first season, finished second in his second. He'd also won the Cup Winners' Cup with Aberdeen and broken up the Old Firm. It really doesn't do Moyes any favours when these comparisons with Fergie are brought up. We didn't need restructuring as an entire club when Moyes was brought in, in fact the basic rationale we were given at the time of his hiring is that it was the best choice for continuity!
I see what you mean but for me it is legitimate for Moyes to be thinking about the future, that is why this was always going to be a bit of a transitional season and early on in the season I understood it would be all about experimenting and building for the future, so I stick with that view even now it has proved difficult to see the performances that have come from that. What I think it does show though is the need me have for a quality midfielder who can do what Giggs did last night more consistently, hopefully last night's performance will crystalise in Moyes' mind the kind of player he needs to buy. I agree he could have used Giggs better and we might have won some important games we lost, and maybe got top 4, if he had used him more earlier, but my point was really that I understood the rationale of not using Giggs more, in the context of people saying he didnt give a good interview. His answer in this case (and on the whole) was concise, to the point and rational, which is all you can really ask for.
True but not without good reason. To defender the bashers it's not unreasonable to assume, given his previous statements, that when he says were were "magnificent" that he truly believes that and, like the other times he's praised our performance, we'll play similar in the next game and look far less "magnificent", or worse.
He was given a squad that needed to be rebuild after they won the league. Moyes did not do that last summer because he wanted to analyze the type of players Sir Alex Ferguson left him with, which was understandable considering the abruptness of his hiring.. He started this winter with Mata and will continue this summer with 3-4 quality addition.
Last night our best midfield solution was Giggs which showcase how limited in quality we are in this department. Ferdinand and Evra who are most likely living this summer and are on a decline started aswell. Not to mention, the other players in the squad who has underachieved or are in a decline. So as you can see their will be many changes and the United team will look very different next year.
Such changes would address the underperformers in our team and make United much stronger. Case in point, Mata is an attacking improvement towards Valencia, while Fellaini is a much better subsidary player towards Cleverley or Anderson. I would expect Moyes to add a much needed improvement towards Giggs and Evra in the starting central mid/left back role. Moreover, add depth in other areas of the team including the holding mid role and perhaps center back, right back, or attacking area if two of our prominant players depart(i.e Hernandez and Nani/etc.). The £60m price tage you mentioned is inflated due to the travesty of our last summer dealing. Mata will most likely justify his price tag in the future when Moyes find the correct balance.
I do wish that Moyes philosophy could be better and as mentioned before, I much rather have Mauricio Roberto Pochettino who does the rebuilding. However, Moyes exemplifies what United fans should expect from their team and coaching staff which is hard work and passion. Characteristic that may not pragmatical considering the abandonment of 19th century ideology, but efficient if he can get the players motivated to perform week in week out like his predecessor before him.
While I'm delighted we're through to the quarter-finals, I'm still pessimistic. There has been a ridiculous lack of consistency this season, which Moyes acknowledged last night, and I fear last night was another false dawn. I think many would echo this sentiment now, and are approaching last nights victory with caution. Some even suggesting the result merely papered over the cracks. I still have no faith in Moyes, and he'll have to do a hell of a lot more to swing my opinion, mainly implement an attacking brand of football with a discernible style. It has taken far too long to apply any footballing method, it is borderline preposterous at this stage.
Abruptness of his hiring? He was appointed 4 months before season started and was probably offered it long before that. How much advance warning do we think managers get? There aren't many who get appointed a year in advance.
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I agree with this. As great as it was to progress last night I can't help thinking it was merely a rightful and expected victory at home against who should have been a significantly inferior opponent. Sadly I saw little last night that addressed any recent issues or anything that makes me think maybe we could pick up steam in the last few weeks of the season.
What I was looking for was a different approach tactically. I wanted to see us mix things up and show another side to ourselves. In the cold light of day wasn't last night just the same as we've seen before but against weaker opposition? Not meaning to take anything away from the victory but what really changed other than personnel? It still seemed tactically to be the same.
It's hard saying this not to be accused of pissing on the parade and be on the receiving end of "we won what more do you want?" comments, but as someone who thinks our issue this season is how we play then last night, despite the win, didn't put my mind at ease. If we play like that in some our of coming fixtures (as we have many of our previous ones) we'll drop a lot of points.
Sir Alex took over after the decline. This post would make a lot more sense had he taken over in the beginning if the season he did rather in the middle. He actually started off by "turning things around". So he showed his quality immediately I.e in the short term.
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/bill-oherlihy-david-moyes-quote-1371661-Mar2014/
Interesting stats about Moyes coming up in RTE
Interesting stats about Moyes coming up in RTE
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/bill-oherlihy-david-moyes-quote-1371661-Mar2014/
Interesting stats about Moyes coming up in RTE
Feckin' brilliant.WTFhttp://thescore.thejournal.ie/bill-oherlihy-david-moyes-quote-1371661-Mar2014/
Interesting stats about Moyes coming up in RTE
He did much worse in his 3rd full season than in his first, hence many supporters at the time thinking we were going backwards under him ('He only managed to finish second because he inherited Big Ron's team, who were constants in the top 3/4, and now it's the team he's built we're crap!'), and wanting him sacked.
I know that, but the reality contradicts that last post of yours which tries to equate his start to that of Moyes', which was my point.
He inherited a squad that while weak in certain positions is still brutally effective if used correctly. That was pretty evident in past year were we won the EPL title comfortably and were unlucky to get out of the CL the way we did (and against Real Madrid)
Lets start from assessing the side
GK: We currently have the most promising goalkeeper in the world and surely one of the top 5
Defense: A perfect mix of experience and talent, with the likes of Smalling, Evans and Jones ready to take over more experienced heads like Rio and Vidic
Flanks: A mediocre (by United standards) but effective flank line which mix EPL experience (Valencia and Young), with exciting and sheer talent of that of Zaha, Januzaj and Lingaard
CM: The true weakness of Man United
FWD: Simply magnificent with Rooney and RVP backed by the likes of Welbeck and Hernandez
Moyes threw the instruction manual by sacking SAF all winning coaching staff in favor of his friends down Mersey side. He spent 27m on a player whose the exact opposite of what a CM should be at a top club and pushed the team from first to 7th. Things didn't got better even though he spent another 37m.
Mind no one expected him to win the league. Personally I would have given him a second go if he reached 4th place. But he wasn't even able to reach that target. This squad is far from 7th place material.
And please stop talking about what fans expect. We expect the team to win trophies and play top quality football something which Moyes has never been able to achieve either here or elsewhere. Also I've been watching the game long enough to know that when the likes of passion and hard work is mentioned it usually because there's a deficiency in terms of talent and quality. For example the first thing that comes in mind about the likes of Cantona and SAF (who were typical example of hardworking people both on and off the pitch) is not how hardworking they were but how brilliant they were.
Mockney's posts over the last few pages sum up exactly how I feel. Perfectly put too.
Also, I hope Moyes doesn't genuinely feel we were fantastic last night and it was more a case of him speaking for the result and out of emotion more than anything.
Also, I hope Moyes doesn't genuinely feel we were fantastic last night and it was more a case of him speaking for the result and out of emotion more than anything.
I'm elated we're still in the competition as it still gives us something to shout about this season, but I hope it doesn't buy Moyes more time.
If we're sitting 7th by the end of the season he still has to go, the only way I'd agree to him given more time is if he fluked the CL.
If we're sitting 7th by the end of the season he still has to go, the only way I'd agree to him given more time is if he fluked the CL.
I get the feeling that he's pretty much a safe bet to be our manager next season.
This picture is the best Moyes picture hands down!!
Things are down but, always have to look at the bright and funny side
Things are down but, always have to look at the bright and funny side
Moyes shouldn't really gloat about how happy is with the current squad in the last summer. It was his biggest mistake, while opponents made some positive changes and that made fans more than unsatisfied on very start of his adventure here.
Ending season on 7th is unforgivable indeed and even if he'll stay he's gonna have a tough life not only with the media.
Ending season on 7th is unforgivable indeed and even if he'll stay he's gonna have a tough life not only with the media.
After last night do we think he'll survive a severe beating from City?
It is a difficult one, some of the media went with the story he'd be sacked if we went crashing out to the Greeks. If this is to be believed the board made a decision he'd go unless we went through, luckily for him we did go through, but sacking him surely must now be some sort of an anticipation within the board?
It is a difficult one, some of the media went with the story he'd be sacked if we went crashing out to the Greeks. If this is to be believed the board made a decision he'd go unless we went through, luckily for him we did go through, but sacking him surely must now be some sort of an anticipation within the board?
Nah... I think if we get throughly battered by City in the same fashion we got done against Liverpool, the knives will be out.
I'm in that category. However we all are, when you think about it.
Consider this - lets take it to the logical conclusion. Imagine Moyes had lost every game all season, and we were already relegated with zero points. No-one would say he should stay, no? So in fact there is a minimum requirement for this season. Rather than saying "you can have time to do your thing" its "if you meet this minimum standard, we'll give you time".
And probably the time and the minimum standard are linked. If Moyes finished in 4th, or even 5th narrowly, I reckon most fans would be comfy, even looking forward, to a second season. If he'd challenged for the title but failed by a handful of points, he'd have done enough to probably get a few shots at it.
What Moyes has done this year though has been lower than the minimum standards most people set, even if they didn't realize they had a minimum in the first place. Of course that minimum may not be league placing - it includes style of football, transfers, results against rivals, the impression he makes personally, etc.
I'd be inclined to agree but I can't help but fear he's going nowhere. Especially after last nights post match interview in which he suggested he's under no pressure from within the club.
If we finish 7th, as seems quite possible, that will probably be the judging factor. At the beginning of the season that would have been seen as disgraceful, so hopefully the board's expectations won't have been chipped away at over the course of the season to the extent they would see it in any other light. If we get through to the semis and put a good account of ourselves in there then it might be a different scenario, but I don't see that as terribly likely myself.
He's here to stay, last night changes nothing for me, he should still get sacked as soon as we fail to qualify for the UCL, there's no chance of that happening.
Moyes' job security polarizes opinion on the Caf', it really is an impossible one to call as we've nothing really to base estimates on regarding how long he'll last.
We beat what would be a low-mid table side in the premiership 3-2 over two legs, it's not really going to change much. Of course, it could signal an upturn in performance, but otherwise we'll be back we were on Monday before long.
Indeed it is, the only reason I think he's here to stay is simply due to the fact he hasn't been fired yet, and he doesn't look like a man under pressure.
I'm hoping that he has a clause in his contract that he has to finish in the top 4, once that's mathematically impossible and we are out of the UCL I expect he will be fired, if not, he's here to stay, and he will be given lots of money to spend. That makes me a little uneasy.
Yeah, probably the most logical conclusion right now. If he hasn't been sacked yet, why would he be sacked in a week?
No matter how worse it gets, he'll only be sacked at the end of the season.
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