There's actually worse things than losing

[Livvie]

I'd actually give anything to be losing but playing well.

Worse than defeat is the fact that we're embarrassing.

If we were losing, but entertaining, I could put up with the banter. It's the sheer humiliation of playing like a park side (with apologies to all park sides) - no cohesion, no ideas, mistakes that no professional should make.

It's easier to think that the team are being drugged by a rogue tea-lady, or that the real players have been abducted by Scouse alien supporters and cloned, than to accept that last year's champions have become a team of clueless no-hopers.

We can list half a dozen or more teams that have new managers and are still playing like a professional outfit.

It makes no sense, unless it comes down to the players not having a clue if they're playing or where they're playing, and being generally confused - I mean, we're not talking about a dip in form for the odd player or two.

Answers on a postcard...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We've turned into a right mess. And I agree, the joy out of the watching United has been sucked right out.

 

[Livewire1974]

We are horrible to watch. Completely disjointed. A team of headless chickens running around achieving nothing.

 

[Varun]

Yeah, we've been poor to watch which combined with the results make it even tougher to take. The stat that Brophs posted in the other thread about us scoring just 1 goal that too from a corner this season vs the other top teams is just crazy. Shows how poor we've been.

To think that the only small silver lining of SAFs retirement was that our style of play had stagnated and would improve with newer ideas

 

[nimic]

What gets to me is that other than sometimes Arsenal, other "big" teams have nearly always given us a good match, even when we beat them. We haven't done that at all this season, again except against Arsenal. We've not only been beaten, but destroyed. There's no one little thing, one small tactical change that is going to fix that. There's only one big thing.

 

[Bloxy]

it's true. Its not losing that hurts, its the embarrassment of being swatted away like flies by our fiercest rivals and showing no passion.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

For me it's the belief that once we go 1-0 down, the game is pretty much over for us now. That makes matches like yesterday, Liverpool and Olympiakos away a bit torturous.

 

[Siorac]

I thought in the past couple of seasons that we aren't good to watch, that it's a joyless side.

How very wrong I was. Now I know what that is really like.

 

[KeninDC]

We've gone from expecting to win the league and CL to hoping for a good loss. An absolutely unexpected and catastrophic collapse. Watching United has become a depressing activity-like visiting an aging relative who is a shadow of her past self.

I think the reasons have been endlessly debated. Here's my 2 cents on the factors that usually come up:

Aging squad: 10%
Moyes's man management: 35%
Moyes's in-game tactics/substitutions: 40%
Organization adapting to Fergie's retirement: 10%
Juju/karma/whatever: 5%.

 

[BennyBlanco]

The first thought to run through my mind when we heard Moyes would be taking over from Sir Alex wasn't anything to do with winning trophies, simply "His football style conflicts with ours" I thought there would be issues for the fact our play was already stagnating... badly, in the last couple years of Sir Alex reign, and that singular point to be the biggest issue for any new manager to try to curb and looking at Moyes tenure at Everton I had serious reservations over the issue...

So naturally here we are after 30+ games played and we've seen our play further degenerate into the mire tenfold, and watching our club is now often akin to pulling teeth regardless of result, thats not particuarly a surprise for me, But what really both astounds and pisses me off is the traits that Moyes actually showed in his Everton side, Toughness, organisation resiliency haven't even materialised.

 

[Bloxy]

usually when we lost against our rivals, there was normally something in the game that we could use for banter, like bad referee decision, a lucky deflected goal and a mistake, but the margins were small and games were tight. last night and against liverpool, we had nothing.

not turning up against liverpool and citeh at home should be written in in the policies of the club as a sackable offence.

 

[Barca84]

They made us look stupid. It was on the cards from the kick off and they came at us like a team that know we are shit, have nothing to hurt them, and we proved them right in no uncertain terms. This team is horrible. I saw no redeeming features last night bar a great goalkeeper and tireless running from Rooney.

The anger in the stadium now seems to be growing. Folk stayed to the end versus Liverpool and sang their hearts out but not last night. Disbelief is being replaced by anger. I really thought he would be gone by now but had predicated that on humiliation by Liverpool and City and elimination by the Greeks and can't help but think the CL win and result against West Ham gave him some breathing space. Surely, surely if and when we get battered by Bayern then is the time that the board does the decent thing, steps in, and ends this charade. It's like an advert for football euthanasia this - Moyes backers evangelical in their belief that things must be allowed to run their course versus those who can see that this is painfully terminal.

 

[Member 39557]

For me it's the belief that once we go 1-0 down, the game is pretty much over for us now. That makes matches like yesterday, Liverpool and Olympiakos away a bit torturous.

Exactly this. I didn't used to worry when we were 1 or 2-nil down in the first half to anybody as I always knew we were capable of salvaging a result. Now, I fear the worst whenever we concede the first goal. We don't create enough chances anymore.

 

[Danny1982]

I agree. We're more reliant now on some individual magic moments, or a penalty to open the scoring. We don't seem to have any idea about how to attack and break defences as a team, and when it comes to defending, we look shaky as hell.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I think we've had roughly two, maybe three, enjoyable games this season. Moyes has eradicated any enjoyment in watching Manchester United. This has been my major issue all season. It breaks my heart to see such a dull, offensively tactless, and tactically inept Manchester United side. I've watched sides in the Championship play better football this season.

 

[Crackers]

They made us look stupid. It was on the cards from the kick off and they came at us like a team that know we are shit, have nothing to hurt them, and we proved them right in no uncertain terms. This team is horrible. I saw no redeeming features last night bar a great goalkeeper and tireless running from Rooney.

The anger in the stadium now seems to be growing. Folk stayed to the end versus Liverpool and sang their hearts out but not last night. Disbelief is being replaced by anger. I really thought he would be gone by now but had predicated that on humiliation by Liverpool and City and elimination by the Greeks and can't help but think the CL win and result against West Ham gave him some breathing space. Surely, surely if and when we get battered by Bayern then is the time that the board does the decent thing, steps in, and ends this charade. It's like an advert for football euthanasia this - Moyes backers evangelical in their belief that things must be allowed to run their course versus those who can see that this is painfully terminal.

Perfect explanation of the situation mate.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Aging squad: 1%
Moyes's man management: 92%
Moyes's in-game tactics/substitutions: 5%
Organization adapting to Fergie's retirement: 1%
Juju/karma/whatever: 1%.

Fixed

 

[Plugsy]

Isn't Chelsea's squad older than ours?

 

[Cina]

I think a large number of us were willing to accept a decline in results and such if it meant that we were showing signs of adapting a new brand of football, that Moyes was showing signs that he was trying to reinvent the way we played, which has become rather stale under SAF in recent years.

The problem is, none of this has happened, he's not tried to change things, he's tried to completely copy SAF, his logic right from the get go was "I've inherited a squad that won the title, I'll do the same thing the previous manager did and I should be fine." That's the worst part of it for me, that he's not had the balls to actually try shake things up, to instill his own philosiphy, and week in week out I wait for signs of that, but there's just nothing, it just gets worse, and I'm not really buying the idea that he needs time to rebuild the squad, that's bullshit, why give 100m to a man who spent 27m on someone who looks out of place here, and broke our record to get one of the best #10';s in the world and has absolutely no clue how to use him at all.

We all joked about our 'embarrassing' transfer activity this summer, but this genuinely is embarrassing for the club right now, keeping Moyes isn't an act of pride, defiance, whatever they think it is, it's a stupid act of stubborness that's leaving us looking more and more like a bunch of buffoons.

 

[Judge Red]

It's true, there are teams below us who have more of a fighting spirit despite getting inferior results. At least you can support that. We've literally got it worse than Norwich and Crystal Palace fans at the moment.

Our players aren't performing. 'Twas ever thus, though. As soon as the league was over, Fergie's sides always stopped playing. The only difference is, the league was never over in October under him.

It's pretty much unwatchable (only ABUs would disagree) and it's that rather than the results which will start to be reflected in empty seats. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest there's any point in supporting this regime any longer. The people who can do something about it will be the last to accept it.

 

[Plugsy]

Someone else said here last night that we should at least be seeing signs of improvement and gelling by now.

 

[SteveJ]

...keeping Moyes isn't an act of pride, defiance, whatever they think it is, it's a stupid act of stubborness that's leaving us looking more and more like a bunch of buffoons.

Is it really stubbornness though? Instead, could it not be that SAF & others feel the squad simply isn't good enough, and that Moyes is obliged to work with them until he can change things (this summer)? The Ruby Walsh stuff I posted in the 'What will it take to sack Moyes?' thread hints at this:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-will-it-take-to-sack-moyes.384307/page-18#post-15345165

 

[Crackers]

Someone else said here last night that we should at least be seeing signs of improvement and gelling by now.

Pretty normal to expect that in fairness. Some sort of cohesion and a consistent game plan. 46 different squads this season says it all.

 

[Plugsy]

Pretty normal to expect that in fairness. Some sort of cohesion and a consistent game plan. 46 different squads this season says it all.

I don't really mind the change in team selection to be honest it's more the way they're asked to play which bothers me. No matter who is on the pitch, regardless as to their strengths or weaknesses, we play the same way.

We must have wide players, apparently, even if that means relegating Mata to the role of 'take the man on and whip the cross in' or asking Cleverley to spent much of his night hugging the touchline on the basis that we can't possibly not have a midfielder there.

 

[Donut]

Let's be honest, the last few seasons under Fergie we haven't played nice football either. But this is a whol new level of shitness.

 

[Tyrion Lannister]

Is it really stubbornness though? Instead, could it not be that SAF & others feel the squad simply isn't good enough

Isn't good enough for what though Steve? Because Everton look like giving Arsenal one hell of a battle for that final Champions League spot.

The big problem with Moyes, and this is why it is stubbornness is that we're getting worse with each week that passes and that must be down to more than the players at the manager's disposal.

 

[SteveJ]

Isn't good enough for what though Steve? Because Everton look like giving Arsenal one hell of a battle for that final Champions League spot.

The big problem with Moyes, and this is why it is stubbornness is that we're getting worse with each week that passes and that must be down to more than the players at the manager's disposal.

The stubbornness thing is just a guess though, mate - leaving aside PR pronouncements, we've no idea what SAF & Sir Bobby really think ATM.

 

[Tyrion Lannister]

The stubbornness thing is just a guess though, mate - leaving aside PR pronouncements, we've no idea what SAF & Sir Bobby really think ATM.

Yeah that's fair, I'm just struggling badly to understand:

1) Why anyone would take a huge gamble on Moyes over Mourinho in the first place.
2) Why anyone would think that our form is acceptable from a management team who are about to enter their tenth month in the job. An initial drop off I can understand, but surely by now he should be improving with his team, instead it gets worse every day he's in the job.

It beggars belief, it really does.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Never really brought into the idea that there's a way to lose which doesn't feel shit. It's romantic nonsene to think there's any way our current points total (and record against top teams) could have happened without the fans feeling just as pissed off as they are now.

People talk about Liverpool under Rodgers but their fans only started enjoying his reign in the latter half of last season when their team started putting it all together and - guess what - began winning games.

 

[Plugsy]

Losing always feels shit but there's a difference losing in a tightly fought contest where a good account of yourselves is shown, and just being swept aside. Surely every football fan alive has had post-match feelings of "Gutted we lost, as we played really well, I thought." a few times a season

 

[SirFergie]

Never really brought into the idea that there's a way to lose which doesn't feel shit. It's romantic nonsene to think there's any way our current points total (and record against top teams) could have happened without the fans feeling just as pissed off as they are now.

People talk about Liverpool under Rodgers but their fans only started enjoying his reign in the latter half of last season when their team started putting it all together and - guess what - began winning games.

I agree to a certain extent. Generally if you play well you win, and playing good football enables the team to "play" well.

But there is a difference in being beaten narrowly, not deserving it and between deserving it and being swept aside like we were last night and against Liverpool. We were toyed with to an extent that makes it soul destroying to see.

 

[Amir]

It's not just the team. The silly banner and the club people forced to guard it. People venting their anger apparently towards Fergie yesterday, all those Youtube videos of people telling what they feel after games. It's bigger than just the football issues. The whole thing is a mess. And the worst thing is, I can see it becoming a little better, but not much.

 

[Cina]

Is it really stubbornness though? Instead, could it not be that SAF & others feel the squad simply isn't good enough, and that Moyes is obliged to work with them until he can change things (this summer)? The Ruby Walsh stuff I posted in the 'What will it take to sack Moyes?' thread hints at this:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-will-it-take-to-sack-moyes.384307/page-18#post-15345165

I think it's stubbornness, considering SAF was probably the most stubborn manager to ever exist.

 

[SteveJ]

I think it's stubbornness, considering SAF was probably the most stubborn manager to ever exist.

True. But he was also ruthless when it was necessary.

 

[hungrywing]

Is it really stubbornness though? Instead, could it not be that SAF & others feel the squad simply isn't good enough, and that Moyes is obliged to work with them until he can change things (this summer)? The Ruby Walsh stuff I posted in the 'What will it take to sack Moyes?' thread hints at this:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-will-it-take-to-sack-moyes.384307/page-18#post-15345165

To be honest none of us would be surprised if that's almost exactly their thinking. Except for a minor tweak about it not about the squad being not good enough and more in terms of them being SAF's players thing as covered in the Ruby Walsh stuff. If this is their stance then fair enough.

But what's got to throw a bit of a monkey-wrench into the works is Moyes unbelievably poor man-management/mentality. On that angle the Moyes-Out-Yesterday argument has an extremely stout leg to stand on and it has to be weighing on the board's minds. Particularly if player discontentment is true, which they'll know about much better than we do.

Yeah that's fair, I'm just struggling badly to understand:

1) Why anyone would take a huge gamble on Moyes over Mourinho in the first place...

The gamble was obviously that Moyes was a principled prodigy who could be doing much better but was unwilling to compromise his beliefs or his employers until they perhaps showed him the door. That David Moyes, he could be doing so much better for himself if he weren't such a stand-up guy, sticking with Everton like that year after year...

So to answer that question, it's not a huge gamble at all if that's how Moyes was perceived within the managing world.

That's why certain members of the 'SAF is 78.4% to blame' camp have some good merit to their arguments. SAF offering Moyes the job with anything but the above knowledge and it turns into a moment of wtfavoritism. So basically, again, not a gamble.

 

[malappapper]

Isn't Chelsea's squad older than ours?

Chelsea have many extremely young or relatively young players now:

Hazard - 23
Oscar - 22
Azpilicuetta - 24
Schurrle - 23
Willian - 25
Matic - 25
Ramires - 27
Salah - 21
Cahill - 28
Mikel - 26
Luiz - 26


Their over 30s are:

Terry - 33
Lampard - 35
Ivanovic - 30
Torres - 30
Eto'o - 33
Cole - 33

So, their starting XI is extremely young.

 

[Ole90+3]

Mikel is 26?! Seems like he has been around for yonks

 

[Kag]

Mikel is 26?! Seems like he has been around for yonks

He's probably 36 to be honest.

 

[bobbyf]

Chelsea have many extremely young or relatively young players now:

Hazard - 23
Oscar - 22
Azpilicuetta - 24
Schurrle - 23
Willian - 25
Matic - 25
Ramires - 27
Salah - 21
Cahill - 28
Mikel - 26
Luiz - 26


Their over 30s are:

Terry - 33
Lampard - 35
Ivanovic - 30
Torres - 30
Eto'o - 33
Cole - 33

So, their starting XI is extremely young.

But when you hear people talking about our over-30s, they're all past it, supposedly. One or two are, like Giggs and Rio. But not all and they are not being managed properly. Mourinho knows how to get the best out of all of his players.

 

[malappapper]

But when you hear people talking about our over-30s, they're all past it, supposedly. One or two are, like Giggs and Rio. But not all and they are not being managed properly. Mourinho knows how to get the best out of all of his players.

Other than Terry (33) and Ivanovic who is perfectly acceptable 30 years of age, Chelsea base themselves on the young players. Lampard, Eto'o and Cole have limited oles.