All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - MJJ/Crappy vs diarm

[NoPace]

no chance would i drop Le Tissier for Lampard. that's sacrilege

It might not be aesthetically or philosophically pleasing but Bergkamp-Scholes-Keane is no joke, and while Modric can play his way out of trouble on the ball, you need someone more mobile and defensively aware than Le Tissier to not let Scholes and Keane dominate that crucial part of the pitch, or it will lead to one of them getting open and repeatedly getting it to Overmars to go 1 on 1 at Jones, or Bergkamp getting chances to play in Fowler, or Fowler being played in by Scholes or even Keane themselves, or Beckham coming inside to help out and Stuart Pearce getting a chance to hit a cracker.

Defensively, there is no contest between the 2 and going forward, Lampard is the best player in the draft in terms of late runs into the box and he's got the correct type of wingers (with Bale on the left) to provide him the cutbacks and crosses he needs.

 

[crappycraperson]

I'll keep banging on about anything I want. I'm getting a bit fed up with you telling people to leave gamethreads. They are made for discussions, the whole point of the drafts is discussions, and I reckon I was having a decent one with MJJ where we explored many issues rather than banging on about a single one.

FWIW, I did put diarm in his place when he presented that 6-3 as almost a one-man Maradonesque show by Le Tissier. It wasn't at all, I was there, I watched it. Did you? Did he? Same shite with Rob Jones being assessed on caps... I won't shut up in the face of spurious arguments.

It's a semi-final, if you guys were new to this I would probably step back a fair bit more, but you aren't so you'd better have better arguments than telling people to feck off because you don't like their opinions.

yeah ignore that.. i was frustrated so went overboard.

 

[crappycraperson]

It might not be aesthetically or philosophically pleasing but Bergkamp-Scholes-Keane is no joke, and while Modric can play his way out of trouble on the ball, you need someone more mobile and defensively aware than Le Tissier to not let Scholes and Keane dominate that crucial part of the pitch, or it will lead to one of them getting open and repeatedly getting it to Overmars to go 1 on 1 at Jones, or Bergkamp getting chances to play in Fowler, or Fowler being played in by Scholes or even Keane themselves, or Beckham coming inside to help out and Stuart Pearce getting a chance to hit a cracker.

Defensively, there is no contest between the 2 and going forward, Lampard is the best player in the draft in terms of late runs into the box and he's got the correct type of wingers (with Bale on the left) to provide him the cutbacks and crosses he needs.

You should vote

 

[diarm]

It might not be aesthetically or philosophically pleasing but Bergkamp-Scholes-Keane is no joke, and while Modric can play his way out of trouble on the ball, you need someone more mobile and defensively aware than Le Tissier to not let Scholes and Keane dominate that crucial part of the pitch, or it will lead to one of them getting open and repeatedly getting it to Overmars to go 1 on 1 at Jones, or Bergkamp getting chances to play in Fowler, or Fowler being played in by Scholes or even Keane themselves, or Beckham coming inside to help out and Stuart Pearce getting a chance to hit a cracker.

Defensively, there is no contest between the 2 and going forward, Lampard is the best player in the draft in terms of late runs into the box and he's got the correct type of wingers (with Bale on the left) to provide him the cutbacks and crosses he needs.

I think it would have been suicide to pick Lampard and go toe to toe with them in midfield. Especially on a United forum and against those midfielders. You've got to consider Beckham and Modric's contribution in the central areas. Those two harrying the midfielders, Batty covering what gets through, Jones and Cole focusing on Overmars and Ginola and Terry/Ferdinand as the last line behind all that.

That is as tough a defensive system to break through as this league has seen. I honestly think there are far more questions to be answered about how his defence is going to deal with our counter attack without the presence of a Batty in front of it. Even when you take Keane (who will be running backwards rather than facing an oncoming attack a la Batty) as a great defending midfielder - Scholes, Ginola and Overmars weren't strong defensively while Modric, Beckham and Bale all were.

 

[sajeev]

It might not be aesthetically or philosophically pleasing but Bergkamp-Scholes-Keane is no joke, and while Modric can play his way out of trouble on the ball, you need someone more mobile and defensively aware than Le Tissier to not let Scholes and Keane dominate that crucial part of the pitch, or it will lead to one of them getting open and repeatedly getting it to Overmars to go 1 on 1 at Jones, or Bergkamp getting chances to play in Fowler, or Fowler being played in by Scholes or even Keane themselves, or Beckham coming inside to help out and Stuart Pearce getting a chance to hit a cracker.

Defensively, there is no contest between the 2 and going forward, Lampard is the best player in the draft in terms of late runs into the box and he's got the correct type of wingers (with Bale on the left) to provide him the cutbacks and crosses he needs.

you make a fair argument but i am not buying it.

i think Le Tissier provides more to the team in terms of attack and tactical flexibility. Also Lampard at his peak wasn't all that great defensively. While Lampard was a very intelligent player, his peak came while he was playing as an attacking midfielder behind Drogba. While you do make the point about Bale, given that RvP is ahead and diarm is looking at Le Tissier as an outlet for the defence, I would keep him.

Once again, great attempt to convince me but i am not going to be convinced

 

[crappycraperson]

It would have been suicide to pick Lampard and go toe to toe with them in midfield. You've got to consider Beckham and Modric's contribution in the central areas. Those two harrying the midfielders, Batty covering what gets through, Jones and Cole focusing on Overmars and Ginola and Terry/Ferdinand as the last line behind all that.

That is as tough a defensive system to break through as this league has seen. I honestly think there are far more questions to be answered about how his defence is going to deal with our counter attack without the presence of a Batty in front of it. Even when you take Keane (who will be running backwards rather than facing an oncoming attack a la Batty) as a great defending midfielder - Scholes, Ginola and Overmars weren't strong defensively while Modric, Beckham and Bale all were.

A lot of falsehoods there. Modric is not defensively more solid than Scholes. Neither are passengers when it comes to work-rate hence can play in midfield two. It is also worth keeping in mind that Modric's peak did come at Madrid. Don't think he showed the same level as last couple of season at Spurs at all.

Overmars and Ginola both played in 442 and are not modern version of wingers who are not necessarily expected to track back. Overmars especially will work on his wing as any other winger of that era.

It is bizarre that you have managed to spun Batty being more of an influence on this match than Keane, not as bizarre as loads of people buying into it.

 

[dustfingers]

In Modric and Beckham we have the players to move this ball quickly and accurately. In Bale, Le Tissier and Van Persie, we have the players to exploit this space, especially as it is still unclear how deep our opponents will maintain their defensive line.

Modric and Beckham's over the top ball and RvP's volley looks very much on. Modric is a superb player in your set-up and that looked like an advantage.

 

[crappycraperson]

you make a fair argument but i am not buying it.

i think Le Tissier provides more to the team in terms of attack and tactical flexibility. Also Lampard at his peak wasn't all that great defensively. While Lampard was a very intelligent player, his peak came while he was playing as an attacking midfielder behind Drogba. While you do make the point about Bale, given that RvP is ahead and diarm is looking at Le Tissier as an outlet for the defence, I would keep him.

Once again, great attempt to convince me but i am not going to be convinced

Le Tissier simply lacks the body of work Lampard has in big games against big teams in PL and CL and other cup competitions. Lampard is also more capable of putting in a defensive work shift than Le Tissier who is no where near the work horse you are making him out to be.

 

[MJJ]

Modric and Beckham's over the top ball and RvP's volley looks very much on. Modric is a superb player in your set-up and that looked like an advantage.

And scholes over the top ball and fowler volley isnt on?

 

[sajeev]

Le Tissier simply lacks the body of work Lampard has in big games against big teams in PL and CL and other cup competitions. Lampard is also more capable of putting in a defensive work shift than Le Tissier who is no where near the work horse you are making him out to be.

i am not making him out to a work-horse but he was not lazy as he is portrayed. he just appeared laid back.
Oh and Le Tissier was the man for the big games much more so than Lampard

 

[Gio]

And scholes over the top ball and fowler volley isnt on?

(0.46)

 

[crappycraperson]

It is on you @MJJ I am off for a bit

 

[diarm]

A lot of falsehoods there. Modric is not defensively more solid than Scholes. Neither are passengers when it comes to work-rate hence can play in midfield two.

You can't accuse me of falsehoods and then say that!!! If you asked a hundred people who was better defensively out of Scholes and Modric, I doubt you would get 5 opting for Scholes. The man was a genius with a ball but he couldn't tackle! You need to have a look back at Modric and his abilities.

It is also worth keeping in mind that Modric's peak did come at Madrid.

Quite possibly but his Premier League peak was bloody good as well. And for my team, and these tactics, there aren't too many midfielders who come with his defensive ability, his vision and his technical ability in passing the ball.

Overmars and Ginola both played in 442 and are not modern version of wingers who are not necessarily expected to track back. Overmars especially will work on his wing as any other winger of that era.

Overmars will work harder than Ginola I grant you, but he was not as effective here as Beckham. Plus he will be in a more advanced role than Beckham anyway.

Ginola on the other hand was famous for being lazy in tracking back. It was somewhat of a running joke among Spurs and Newcastle fans. In fact a couple of years ago, around the time Pardew was ousting Ben Arfa for his lack of work rate, one of the charges leveled at him by magpies fans was that he would've probably got rid of Ginola by the same standards.

It is bizarre that you have managed to spun Batty being more of an influence on this match than Keane, not as bizarre as loads of people buying into it.

Not at all. Keane and Scholes will control more of the ball and you will have more possession. I think you are making the mistake of comparing a name to a name and failing to appreciate the benefits a player like Batty as one part of a larger system or formation. I find it bizarre that you guys have managed to spin there being more questions surrounding my defence than your one!!!

 

[dustfingers]

i am not making him out to a work-horse but he was not lazy as he is portrayed. he just appeared laid back.
Oh and Le Tissier was the man for the big games much more so than Lampard

Not to derail this thread but Lampard was also excellent on big games as well. He even scored in UCL final against us, lot of times against Barca and heck, even against Chelsea.

 

[diarm]

And scholes over the top ball and fowler volley isnt on?

Scholes is going to find it very hard to put a ball over the top of a defence as deep as mine.

This is the exact conundrum I've been trying to spell out with your defence. A non-advancing Batty in front of mine allows me to play a very deep line, protecting me from the ball over the top and negating somewhat the threat of your pacier forwards. My players will be facing your attack who will need to build in front and find a way through.

With two box to box midfielders and no fixed presence in front of your defence, your back line will need to decide whether it is coming high to close down space for Le Tissier to receive the ball, thus risking the ball over the top to Van Persie or if they are going to stay deep, creating a huge vacuum between them and the back and forth midfielders. If they go for the latter, there is going to huge areas of space for Bale and Le Tissier to exploit and for Modric, Rio or Beckham to play into.

 

[sajeev]

Not to derail this thread but Lampard was also excellent on big games as well. He even scored in UCL final against us, lot of times against Barca and heck, even against Chelsea.

he did score goals yes but goals aren't the only thing which count and on that front i would have le tissier ahead

 

[Donaldo]

Where the feck is Lampard coming in from here...

As I said earlier, diarm seems to have put more thought overall into his team, and I quite like the look of it as a unit.

 

[diarm]

Lampard is also more capable of putting in a defensive work shift than Le Tissier who is no where near the work horse you are making him out to be.

I must point out again that I am not making Le Tissier out to be a work horse and nor does he need to be in this system.

He has little defensive responsibility and any balls he does win will be very much a bonus. We are not looking to win the ball in the areas of the pitch Le Tissier will be occupying because we want to draw your midfielders, your wingers and preferably your fullbacks into our half.

 

[diarm]

Where the feck is Lampard coming in from here...

As I said earlier, diarm seems to have put more thought overall into his team, and I quite like the look of it as a unit.

Not sure. He was never even on my shortlist and my Chelsea quota is full.
Unless I was supposed to pick City Lampard?

 

[dustfingers]

And scholes over the top ball and fowler volley isnt on?

It is also a possibility. In fact, for me as a beginner in such drafts, both team look equally good. Fowler was more of a poacher than pure technique based player though who was better with on-feet passes and flick-on though.

 

[diarm]

(0.46)

That clip is literally exactly what Modric and Beckham will be looking to do for Van Persie all day long.

It is also a possibility.

It is, although with my defensive line so deep and Batty in the area the ball will be landing, how effective will it be? If they want to hit long balls up towards Terry, Ferdinand and Batty at or around the edge of our penalty area all day I'll be very happy indeed.

 

[dustfingers]

It is, although with my defensive line so deep and Batty in the area the ball will be landing, how effective will it be? If they want to hit long balls up towards Terry, Ferdinand and Batty at or around the edge of our penalty area all day I'll be very happy indeed.

Out of curiosity, why you have Rio as LCB and Terry as RCB? I thought, they played great in opposite way.

 

[diarm]

Out of curiosity, why you have Rio as LCB and Terry as RCB? I thought, they played great in opposite way.

Terry played pretty much exclusively as a right sided centre back. Rio did mix it up a bit more but played plenty on the left and I'd be much more comfortable with him there than changing Terry.

 

[MJJ]

It is also a possibility. In fact, for me as a beginner in such drafts, both team look equally good. Fowler was more of a poacher than pure technique based player though who was better with on-feet passes and flick-on though.

Not sure about your description of fowler here, he was the ultimate poacher and one of the finest finishers in the PL era.


Will just post this here, really not a lot between him and van persie at their respective peaks. Also, feel diam is underrating ginola and overmars here. There isnt a lot between either wings, while our midfield is clearly superior(ditto with his defense).

Really wasnt, have a look at that vidio.

I must point out again that I am not making Le Tissier out to be a work horse and nor does he need to be in this system.

He has little defensive responsibility and any balls he does win will be very much a bonus. We are not looking to win the ball in the areas of the pitch Le Tissier will be occupying because we want to draw your midfielders, your wingers and preferably your fullbacks into our half.

Again, if a side has most of the ball and better creators they will score more end of the day. That strategy is a very risky one and the way I see it you are asking for an out of this world performance from batty, beckham, le tissier and bale to make it work. Something that is very very unlikely to happen. With your defense being so deep(to nullify scholes balls ) I dont see who other than bale is going to carry the ball forward. RVP wont be able to volley the ball either since he will get it far away from our goal.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Scholes is going to find it very hard to put a ball over the top of a defence as deep as mine.

And Modric wont have the problem with sending over the top passes with his team sitting deep? And when was Modric the one who was known for over the top passes, its not his game at all.....

 

[MJJ]

And Modric wont have the problem with sending over the top passes with his team sitting deep? And when was Modric the one who was known for over the top passes, its not his game at all.....

Batty is sitting in front of the defense, modric is in the middle while tissier is playing as a number 10 and somehow this dysfunctional midfield is going to create enough for diarm to win the game. Am not sure how he pulled this argument off but he has.

 

[Moby]

Really wasnt, have a look at that vidio.

He was class, but here he is against the two best defenders the league has seen, and I can't see him getting much into the game.

 

[MJJ]

He was class, but here he is against the two best defenders the league has seen, and I can't see him getting much into the game.

He pretty much scored against every single defense between 92-95 and was against some pretty good defenders there as well. Simply put:- Give fowler the ball enough times and he will score.

With diarm's tactics(inviting our side on, not even contesting the midfield) we will have a lot of ball in his box and I would expect bergkamp, scholes to create enough chances for fowler.

 

[Summit]

vidio

my eyes, my eyes.

 

[Moby]

Give fowler the ball enough times and he will score.

Not against this defense and the tactic they have deployed. With Fowler marked out of the game, hardly a daunting proposition for them, your attack would be left a bit toothless. Van Persie surely has an easier chance to score and at his peak he rarely needed plenty of chances to do so.

my eyes, my eyes.

 

[diarm]

Again, if a side has most of the ball and better creators they will score more end of the day. That strategy is a very risky one and the way I see it you are asking for an out of this world performance from batty, beckham, le tissier and bale to make it work. Something that is very very unlikely to happen. With your defense being so deep(to nullify scholes balls ) I dont see who other than bale is going to carry the ball forward. RVP wont be able to volley the ball either since he will get it far away from our goal.

My defence is deep for a number of reasons, only one of which is to negate the ball over the top. It has been since the very beginning and I'm surprised you're only noticing this now.

We're United fans and you're saying a side with less possession but with a great defence and a lethal counter attacking strategy is unlikely to make things happen? Madness?

I'm not sure if it's deliberate, if you're still refusing to look at my formations or if you really don't get how this works?

I'm not asking for out of this world performances although I'd expect 100% in a semi final. Batty will do what he did consistently, week in, week out. He'll be tactically disciplined, energetic, tenacious and an all round pain in your sides arse. Beckham will do what he did week in, week out - contribute to the midfield, defend well, and ruthlessly exploit long ball or crossing opportunities as they arise. Le Tissier will do what he did week in, week out - he'll receive the ball, in loads of space to turn and carry it towards your goal. 30 seconds on Youtube will show you how effective he was at exactly this.

Bale will carry ball, as will Jones or Cole when appropriate. But most often, the ball will not need to be carried as Modric, Rio or Beckham will be playing it into the space your formation has left for us. That will be either 10-15 yards inside your half if your defensive line is back, or it will be over the top if your defensive line is pushed up.

 

[diarm]

He pretty much scored against every single defense between 92-95 and was against some pretty good defenders there as well. Simply put:- Give fowler the ball enough times and he will score.

With diarm's tactics(inviting our side on, not even contesting the midfield) we will have a lot of ball in his box and I would expect bergkamp, scholes to create enough chances for fowler.

You'll have very little ball in our box. You'll have a lot of ball inside our half, 10-15 yards outside our box, playing it left and right and looking for a way in. High balls into our box will be dealt with, crosses will be dealt with. Your best attacking hope is quick passing and through balls from Bergkamp to Fowler (again tough because there isn't going to be a lot of space behind our backline) or players going on wonder runs and beating a very good defence with individual efforts. Possible of course but difficult.

We on the other hand have to option of attacking through Bale or the option of using our fullbacks on the overlap. This will be more effective for us than it will be for you because your defence will be pushed up higher and there will be more space behind.

We have the option of playing the ball up to Le Tissier in space inside your half.
And we have the option of playing balls over the top to Van Persie.

Yes we will have less ball possession than you but I see 4 routes to goal for our players that are each more straightforward than your 2 routes, simply because there will be more space in your half of the pitch. Space that has been created in part by your formation, and in part by our willingness to encourage you into our half with the ball.

 

[diarm]

And Modric wont have the problem with sending over the top passes with his team sitting deep? And when was Modric the one who was known for over the top passes, its not his game at all.....

Wow. I don't know what to say any more. People are just making arguments without any relevance to the player they are referring to.


There have been precious few who would be better at this role than he. Fortunately we have one of those very few in David Beckham!

Earlier in the thread I showed the shape of our side in defence, I also showed the areas we will move into when we regain possession. I even showed the areas in which Modric and Beckham will look to launch these attacks from.

 

[diarm]

[URL=http://makegif.com/gZ8K][/URL]

 

[crappycraperson]

You'll have very little ball in our box. You'll have a lot of ball inside our half, 10-15 yards outside our box, playing it left and right and looking for a way in. High balls into our box will be dealt with, crosses will be dealt with. Your best attacking hope is quick passing and through balls from Bergkamp to Fowler (again tough because there isn't going to be a lot of space behind our backline) or players going on wonder runs and beating a very good defence with individual efforts. Possible of course but difficult.

We on the other hand have to option of attacking through Bale or the option of using our fullbacks on the overlap. This will be more effective for us than it will be for you because your defence will be pushed up higher and there will be more space behind.

We have the option of playing the ball up to Le Tissier in space inside your half.
And we have the option of playing balls over the top to Van Persie.

Yes we will have less ball possession than you but I see 4 routes to goal for our players that are each more straightforward than your 2 routes, simply because there will be more space in your half of the pitch. Space that has been created in part by your formation, and in part by our willingness to encourage you into our half with the ball.

You keep going on about how every time we attack we will get no space in your half or will face a compact unit, yet you mention that your full backs will be overlapping etc. Are you seriously suggesting that 4-5 of your side will be charging out on every counter from the back? Full backs normally overlap when you are building up to attack not when you are camped in your own half. In your case, you would have minimal withhold in midfield to build towards any kind of sustained attack.

Ridiculous assumption that our side would not get to counter against yours anyway. The lack of space one is not valid as well, we have two proper wingers here who will stretch your back four with two maestros in Bergkamp and Scholes to create.

 

[crappycraperson]

He was class, but here he is against the two best defenders the league has seen, and I can't see him getting much into the game.

It is not just about Fowler against those two. Overmars will beat Jones at times and either Rio or Terry will have to move out in that case. Bergkamp will also get better of Batty on many a occasions again forcing either CB to move out of position. Then there is the threat of charging Scholes. Even some of the best midfielders in PL have not managed to track those Scholes role, no matter how much you rate Modric's defensive input, it is a tall task to expect him to do so here.

The whole attacking unit will make sure that there is space for Fowler to do what he can.

 

[antohan]

Yeah fair enough. I'll hold my hand up on that one!

Beckham scored a deadly freekick that day didn't he? And had another assist from a corner I think?

Probably, not sure it was a corner or a free kick, think the latter. His set pieces that day were exquisite, I remembered that game when years later he seemed hellbent on single-handedly turning aroung the deficit against Real at OT. Another cracking game that.

You have a nice problem here juggling him and Le Tiss for set pieces.

 

[MJJ]

my eyes, my eyes.

 

[crappycraperson]

Paul Scholes... he scores goals

 

[MJJ]

You'll have very little ball in our box. You'll have a lot of ball inside our half, 10-15 yards outside our box, playing it left and right and looking for a way in. High balls into our box will be dealt with, crosses will be dealt with. Your best attacking hope is quick passing and through balls from Bergkamp to Fowler (again tough because there isn't going to be a lot of space behind our backline) or players going on wonder runs and beating a very good defence with individual efforts. Possible of course but difficult.

We on the other hand have to option of attacking through Bale or the option of using our fullbacks on the overlap. This will be more effective for us than it will be for you because your defence will be pushed up higher and there will be more space behind.

We have the option of playing the ball up to Le Tissier in space inside your half.
And we have the option of playing balls over the top to Van Persie.

Yes we will have less ball possession than you but I see 4 routes to goal for our players that are each more straightforward than your 2 routes, simply because there will be more space in your half of the pitch. Space that has been created in part by your formation, and in part by our willingness to encourage you into our half with the ball.

We have the ball in your half, we have three of the most creative players in the PL era, in scholes, ginola and bergkamp and you dont think they will create enough chances over the score of the match?

our fullbacks can overlap as well, you know. What happens when beckham is in midfield and you have a two against one out wide on the right?

Not against this defense and the tactic they have deployed. With Fowler marked out of the game, hardly a daunting proposition for them, your attack would be left a bit toothless. Van Persie surely has an easier chance to score and at his peak he rarely needed plenty of chances to do so.

What tactic? Defending deep with a DM in front? Yeah am sure fowler has never played against that before.