What does any of that have to do with his ball playing abilities?
Leonardo Bonucci | All discussion here please
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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He is a very good long passer of the ball. He attempted them often and they often succeeded, as @Brwned points out. It was - well is - also a very important part of Bayern's system for the past few years, when the teams are too constricted as to not allow any space to their talented attackers, Boateng would often play his lofted passes to bypass the midfield battle. It's like a far, far better tactic than we had with Tyler Blackett (
) under van Gaal for a little while.'Stats' suggest Ronaldo's free kicks have been better than Messi in La Liga, anybody who watches the league knows it's bollocks. These 'long passes' could have any definition from a certain range depending on the website.
64% long pass success rate? Looked more like half of that from my own eyes, as I said the criteria for these have various ranges and factors.
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Boateng is good but he's no where near as defensively solid as Bonucci is.
Nothing. However about his ball playing ability, I don't think that he is the best around. I think that Hummels is better as is Pique.
Lots of people posted during the games about his long passing.'Stats' suggest Ronaldo's free kicks have been better than Messi in La Liga, anybody who watches the league knows it's bollocks. These 'long passes' could have any definition from a certain range depending on the website.
There's absolutely no way he made 11.5 successful long passes per game, I posted during the games about how many times his long diagonal pass was over-hit and went out of play.
I'm sure your opinion is much more valid, though. Here's the graphic of the same game:
Neither of those things fit with your perception, interestingly enough. Dispute stats, ignore other people's opinions, stick to your own. That's the way to go.
Without weighing in on who's the better ball playing centre back, I've always taken it to be about more than just long balls. A defender who can carry the ball and play crisp passes out from the back can be just as good as someone with long passing ability.
Staying composed when being pressed by opposition players is also very important. Ramos and Pepe are excellent at keeping the ball when being pressed and, much more times than not, successfully play the ball out of defence to a midfielder so that they can start an attack. Them possessing an excellent first touch and close control (for central defenders) is also crucial. Pique is another example of a defender that is exceptional at this.
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Yep, all very good points.
I thought all this about needing more than just being good at long balls to be considered a good ball playing centre back was common knowledge. It's why Ferdinand, who's long range passes left a lot to be desired despite occasionally playing some beautiful passes, was considered a great one because of his ability to stay composed when being pressed and the way he carried out the ball from defence.
I think Bonucci and Boateng are two of the best at playing said long balls to switch play and open space, but I do agree that the likes of Ramos, Pique etc. are more tidy on the ball and playing under pressure. At his best, Thiago Silva probably has the perfect blend of both.
I wonder if you're as argumentative in real life. Absolutely nightmarish
You tell them, Brwned. I rate Boateng as one of the best CB passer, second only to Hummels.
I'd rate Boateng higher than Hummels as a passer, as he's practically ambidextrous, while Hummels isn't. What Boateng has beyond Bonucci, Hummels, Ramos or Pique is his athleticism. He's very pacey, something that cannot be said about the others.
Hummels pass has a smooth feeling about it. He pass like a midfielder converted to central back. Boateng's although accurate, it still look like a 'centerback pass'. Yeh, it's just observation that's hard to describe.
Wait so I'm supposed to change my view because you quoted 2/3 people who said the opposite?
You continue to base things on stats, I'll base it on watching players! Your wee graph backed up my point about the criteria for long balls, some of them are chipped balls out wide, hardly a long diagonal ball which I mentioned from the start. Nothing worse than basing views on stats or trophies, I wouldn't expect the people who don't believe Frank Lampard was a creative midfielder or that Gerrard was better to change their view based on 3 peoples opinion or stats showing that Lampard(until Ozil this season) had the record for most chances created in a PL season. Because it's filled with different variables and chances created can come solely from set plays, a bit like Cesc upping his 'assists' due to set plays and simple passes. That's why I can't stand when people downplay Iniesta due to goals/assists and up Lampard/Gerrard.
Also the posts above are spot on about ball playing CBs and the various attributes that come with that term, my original post stated Boateng gets rated on here as some unbelievable passer of a ball. He's very good in this aspect, but his long diagonal balls can be hopeless as seen at this tournament. Using the term ball playing defender, I'd still take the likes of Pique, Ramos and Bonucci over him. Hummels is a better passer as well IMO, his outside of the ball pass in one of the matches recently was outstanding.
You continue to base things on stats, I'll base it on watching players! Your wee graph backed up my point about the criteria for long balls, some of them are chipped balls out wide, hardly a long diagonal ball which I mentioned from the start. Nothing worse than basing views on stats or trophies, I wouldn't expect the people who don't believe Frank Lampard was a creative midfielder or that Gerrard was better to change their view based on 3 peoples opinion or stats showing that Lampard(until Ozil this season) had the record for most chances created in a PL season. Because it's filled with different variables and chances created can come solely from set plays, a bit like Cesc upping his 'assists' due to set plays and simple passes. That's why I can't stand when people downplay Iniesta due to goals/assists and up Lampard/Gerrard.
Also the posts above are spot on about ball playing CBs and the various attributes that come with that term, my original post stated Boateng gets rated on here as some unbelievable passer of a ball. He's very good in this aspect, but his long diagonal balls can be hopeless as seen at this tournament. Using the term ball playing defender, I'd still take the likes of Pique, Ramos and Bonucci over him. Hummels is a better passer as well IMO, his outside of the ball pass in one of the matches recently was outstanding.
Nah, not really. Then again I expect people to give considered viewpoints when they take the time to type something out, particularly in a forum dedicated to that specific topic and with access to relevant info. I don't expect the same of myself or others in real life...so I'm much more chilledI wonder if you're as argumentative in real life. Absolutely nightmarish
No. You're supposed to realise just because you said something at the time doesn't add credibility to it because other people commented the exact opposite at the time. We all have opinions. You're entitled to yours, you just haven't done anything to justify it.Wait so I'm supposed to change my view because you quoted 2/3 people who said the opposite?
I agree that Ramos, Pique, Bonucci and Hummels are better with the ball at their feet, in terms of both initiating attacks and retaining possession under immense pressure, but I personally think Boateng is a better defender than all of them and is quite close to them on the ball.
In any case, this particular discussion was only about passing.
I really rate Bonucci and he's definitely up there as one of the best at the moment but I can't help but think £43mil is an awful lot for a defender at 29 years old but hey ho its not City fans money so why would they care.
My only worry is that this scuppers our chances at pogba due to Juventus not wanting to sell 2 main stars in one window.
My only worry is that this scuppers our chances at pogba due to Juventus not wanting to sell 2 main stars in one window.
To be fair I had edited that part out 21 minutes prior to you replying. So you must have already had it quoted or something.
You think so? He looked good to me whenever I saw him play and although he was rested a lot ala Scholes with us, he seemed to play all big games demonstrating his importance to the team even then.
Looks like City are after Stones now instead. That's a relief.
Bonucci is class, would be gutted if City got him.
He demonstrated his point calmly, clearly and concisely with decent evidence to back it up. You could atleast engage with him better than thatI wonder if you're as argumentative in real life. Absolutely nightmarish
I don't know why I'm even bothering replying, but evidently you haven't been following the thread. I was making an observation; I was not involved in the discussion he was having, merely noting his tone. You could at least read the thread before you assume things.
The signings are not linked. The plan has always seemingly been to get two CBs. Signing Stones will not impact on our attempts to sign Bonucci, although the deal looks to be a no-goer anyway.
You got no chance of getting Bonucci.....lets hope you get Stones and pay £50m for him!
Yes im fully aware of that, my point still applies
That'll mean they'll have Stones, another new CB, Kompany, Mangala, and Otamendi on their books. Presumably Mangala is getting booted out?
I don't get the Bonucci hype, he has been around for a very long time but now after these euros it is the first time I see people raving about him.
I'am sure a year ago if we were discussing who were the best CB's Bonucci wouldn't have been part of discussion. People seem to change their opinion on who is among the best almost every couple of months. First the absolute beast at the back was Hummels, Then was Boateng Then was Godin, Then was Ramos, Now it is suddenly Bonucci. The same with the young talents, first Varane was the end of the world, then it would be Zouma, then it was Stones who would be worth £50m, now people don't even want him and it is Laporte, 6 months ago the caf couldn't shut up about how great Smalling actually is until he makes one or two mistakes and he is bang average again...
Hard to keep up really
I'am sure a year ago if we were discussing who were the best CB's Bonucci wouldn't have been part of discussion. People seem to change their opinion on who is among the best almost every couple of months. First the absolute beast at the back was Hummels, Then was Boateng Then was Godin, Then was Ramos, Now it is suddenly Bonucci. The same with the young talents, first Varane was the end of the world, then it would be Zouma, then it was Stones who would be worth £50m, now people don't even want him and it is Laporte, 6 months ago the caf couldn't shut up about how great Smalling actually is until he makes one or two mistakes and he is bang average again...
Hard to keep up really
Very true.The Bonucci hype started here after one good pass in Italy's first game in the Euro's. Now he's unquestionably the best centre back in the world.
If we get two CBs then yeah Mangala will be gone.
I'm sure City secretly don't even count Kompany as a player any more.
Will be fascinating to see who Guardiola wants to pair with Stones, with Bonucci and Laporte no-goers. I can't think of many other cultured, handy-in-possession sorts who would be gettable. Maybe a sneaky £30m bid for Blind?
If they got Stones Kompany and Otamendi would still be their strongest partnership (still a bit flaky though)
They can have Stones for £53m. I dont think he will ever justify the price, ever. I still cant get my head around it. It is madness.
Funes Mori was better than Stones last year, and the year before was his only real "good" season. Insane
Funes Mori was better than Stones last year, and the year before was his only real "good" season. Insane
Stones would excel under Pep.
The most expensive collection of CBs ever surely if this goes through right?
Why?
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Delaney is nothing news.
Btws, if Mou wants then fine as Bonnucci is one of the finest nowsaday, but IMO while we need an older & experienced CB we should go for a cheaper alternatives for now. Why? It's more ideal to give our younger CBs and let them grow. Getting expensive old mean we would have to use him to the last bit of juice and restrict game time for the other CB position.
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