I already said there are probably 4 or 5 games of the 38 that it can work in. Sunderland, burnley, hull and a couple of others at the eithad. Even then they almost fecked up.... its just not a viable tactic with those players
Clichy and Sagna as playmakers
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Interested to see MOTD. I expected Pep to do something odd, more likely Delph or Fernandinho at CB, but Clichy and Sagna playing a similar role to Lahm and Alaba seems bizarre. I remember our 2nd leg against Bayern under Moyes and that formation was a mind feck. No one else can do or pull this stuff off, but with Clichy and Sagna? I don't see that working.
Neither were asked to do the Lahm/Alaba thing except position wise. they were not nearly as attacking minded or passing wise as those 2. their job was to push into midfield and give the ball to an attacker. A few sloppy passes but otherwise they were solid. the players that struggled most today were the "stars", KDB was piss poor with his delivery and wild shots and Aguero was a little lost on his position. Silva looked ok in midfield pushing forward. Not near as bad as many here are making us out to be but not near as good or tactical genius as alot of others were saying.
It was a team playing a new system with players in strange position learning new roles and thats exactly what it looked like. I'd hate to have a tough team to face so the two CL qualifier games might be a big help. Was kind of what I was expecting and alot of City fans the same. Well except Sunderland scoring cause in the first hour they offered nothing bar Defoes chance off a corner when Caballero saved, also a half chance when Caballero tried to set one up for them. Silva going off saw us lose control of our domination of the ball a bit.
My biggest worry was the lack of urgency again from our stars KDB and Aguero. They looked lazy and off the pace, Noltio trying too hard but truth be told had Iheanacho passed, Aguero buried a sitter and us having more than 4 of 16 shots on target it would have been more comfortable.
Not impressed by any means but not too worried either. If it was to get a grade I'd give it a D.
It was a team playing a new system with players in strange position learning new roles and thats exactly what it looked like. I'd hate to have a tough team to face so the two CL qualifier games might be a big help. Was kind of what I was expecting and alot of City fans the same. Well except Sunderland scoring cause in the first hour they offered nothing bar Defoes chance off a corner when Caballero saved, also a half chance when Caballero tried to set one up for them. Silva going off saw us lose control of our domination of the ball a bit.
My biggest worry was the lack of urgency again from our stars KDB and Aguero. They looked lazy and off the pace, Noltio trying too hard but truth be told had Iheanacho passed, Aguero buried a sitter and us having more than 4 of 16 shots on target it would have been more comfortable.
Not impressed by any means but not too worried either. If it was to get a grade I'd give it a D.
It makes no difference whether what he did is right or wrong. Even actual geniuses make mistakes. It's not even a problem coming to the conclusion that he actually did it all for his ego. But only after all other possibilities have been exhausted.
Otherwise people are just letting their own ego get in the way of seeing that football managers may actually know more about football than people on the Internet.
KDB found himself up against PVA in defensive positions several times today. Against a better team, you wouldn't want that. Sagna was slow in getting back into position several times.
My memory might be failing me. But I don't remember his Barcelona side using such a complex formations and systems during his time there. Apart from his final season, when things were clearly not working and he tried changing thing up to accommodate Fabregas.
It was a fairly standard 433 with Dani playing very high.
It was a fairly standard 433 with Dani playing very high.
Wow he's so quirky and left field. Nobody could possibly understand what he is trying to achieve.
No need to be worried. How hard City worked off the ball was encouraging. Haven't seen that since Mancini.
I think the formation is meant to give Nolito and Sterling more space. But at the same time it recduced the amount of room KDB, Silva and Kun had to work with.
Conventional wisdom is to play wide players so that guys in the middle have more space. Pep wants to play full backs inside so that the wide players have more space. Just the opposite. And he's the only coach that can make it work.
Valencia regularly plays at CM for his national team, and last season(or the season before, the Gaal era blends into one...) had a game there for us, in which he played a blinder.
He should play Silva left back and De Bruyne right back. It would probably be much more effective.
He did try a lot of different stuff up until then. Probably not as often, and maybe not as...unorthodox, but there were plenty of changes. Even things like Messi as a false 9 was fairly rare back then, just doesn't seem it now that it's a more common ploy.
I seriously hope he continues to play this formation and with these tactics. The fast nature and closing down of the premier league always makes it difficult to experiment with defenders in midfield regions. I cant seeing it being successful
It makes it hard to experiment with any possession based football. Is this a general Pep thread? Hope he continues with these tactics as it is Van Gaal'sque and horrible to watch.
I was travelling back home so didn't catch the game. Were City really boring to watch? Everyone has been pretty scathing of Pep so far from what I've heard. Too early to tell of course.
Give him some time. It's a process.
False.
Lahm is an excellent player on the ball and Alaba plays CAM for his national team. Just because an experiment worked using probably the only two full backs in the world that can play a high level CM job doesn't mean it'll work again.
He's going to get stung badly if he proceeds to persevere with this tactic with players that don't have the ability to perform in the system.
In my opinion it's a tactic that won't work in this league anyway and a very risky one at that when this league is full of teams that can press and counter-attack quickly and effectively.
In my opinion it's a tactic that won't work in this league anyway and a very risky one at that when this league is full of teams that can press and counter-attack quickly and effectively.
Never said it would work. Can you read first before you respond? I said that managers experiment all the time. Plenty of those times, people think it's bonkers. In some cases it works, in others it doesn't. We as armchair fans have absolutely no clue to make an informed call.
Fair enough! I am not sure why you find it odd though. It's the first game of the season so he is obviously still in "testing the water mode". It still is interesting to see what he can produce with this City side.
So glad we're done with shite. They were terrible to watch.
I've always maintained that Pep is in many ways unproven. I'm looking forward to seeing him fail in this great league.
Thing I find interesting is they have Denayer - a pretty bright prospect who was used at RB last season on loan, and is comfortable on the ball - but he cant even get onto the bench. He would seem like exactly the sort of player for Pep in his ridiculous inverted FB role.
I agree that Pep is unproven although he is still obviously an excellent coach. But the way every pundit is convinced that City will win the title this season I cant help but feel may be off the mark.
I agree that Pep is unproven although he is still obviously an excellent coach. But the way every pundit is convinced that City will win the title this season I cant help but feel may be off the mark.
Clichy and Sagna were not playmakers. It was odd how Sagna ended up so high up the pitch though towards the end, I'm pretty confident it won't be a regular sight though, and I doubt Pep envisioned it at kick-off. Also, as happened at Bayern, the players seem too cautious in implementing Pep's ideas. It's a lot to take in and naturally they avoid risks to begin with, hence Clichy seeing a lot more of the ball than was probably intended. At the end of the day he has to work with what he has got, and right now Clichy and Sagna are our best full-backs.
I don't see what's so complex about it. It's been done before by Marcelo Bielsa, who also loves his wingers to stay wide, while the fullbacks/midfielders make underlapping runs.
Nah, I remember some crazy experiments in the Ibra year too.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/19/barcelona-4-2-4-formation-guardiola-messi/
I couldn't watch the match (because i was in Wigan to see Blackburn/Coyle's stupid formation) but sounds like Guardiola's first PL match was fun/interesting.......i'm looking forward to their match against Steaua Bucharest on Tuesday 
We'll see in the first 4 or 5 matches if he can adapt. The way they played today will not work in this league, and you could see in his face the 'oh feck' moment when relegation fodder Sunderland equalised. That never happened at Barcelona or Bayern.
Wasn't surprised at all, fullbacks tucking inside is signature Guardiola. Guess he wanted to see how they'd do, and how his team would shape up playing that way, but it is surprising he hasn't made fullbacks a bigger priority in the transfer market. Will also be interesting to see if he changes his approach or sticks with this system while he's just stuck with those two.
Also seemed odd to me that he didn't switch Clichy and Kolarov, the latter of whom I would have thought could be much better in that inverted, more attacking role.
Could be one of the most interesting tactical conundrums this season in any case, watch this space.
He's not a weirdo, he's the only genuine tactical revolutionary in the last decade. Tactics like pressing and strikerless formations are old tatics simply reinvented, Guardiola is the only one who's come up with things that are genuinely original. Will be fascinating to see whether he persists with the inverted fullbacks or reverts to a more conventional system while he's limited with the players he has.
Very true. It's great for the league and football in general that there are managers who are bold enough to think differently and try radically new things.
Imagine that all managers were afraid to try revolutionary changes because of fear of failure...
The thing with Guardiola is that he does all these changes with purpose, he will give up on them and try something different, if his philosophy doesn't work. In this respect, he is far more flexible than LVG.
I think that he will probably fail this year. City have invested mostly in future stars and haven't strenghtened the first team, apart from Gundogan. Probably half of their first XI are 30 y.o. or thereabout.
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If you want your team to play possession based football and dominate the opposition, you have to solve two big problems:
(1) How to create more space for your attackers?
(2) How not to concede space for counter attacks?
By moving the full-backs in CM during the build-up, Guardiola wants to solve both problems at once.
It's all about opening up spaces for your team and closing down spaces for the oppsoition.
(1) How to create more space for your attackers?
(2) How not to concede space for counter attacks?
By moving the full-backs in CM during the build-up, Guardiola wants to solve both problems at once.
It's all about opening up spaces for your team and closing down spaces for the oppsoition.
I think Diego Simeone played as an inside wingback in the '98 World Cup against England too. He was left wingback and Claudio Lopez (a pacey, tricky player) was the left sided forward so it was presumably to give the latter a better chance of running at his opposition number (in this case Gary Neville, playing the bizarre position of centreback). Batistuta on the other side was more of an Alan Shearer type player who wasn't a particularly fast dribbler: he had the more conventional wingback Zanetti on his side of the pitch.
Let's put aside for a moment the idea that Pep is trying to do something different for ego reasons and ask whether it's really different. Perhaps it hasn't happened here but what about South America? Maybe it's pretty commonplace there. I'm sure the multitude of resident South American football experts will clear this up for me.
I didn't say he currently is, if he often repeats it with Sagna and Clichy then he'll be a true one in my book. If he is limited by the players he has, all the more reason to play them in their natural roles and positions.
Why people were so paranoid in Pogba case where reputable reporters claimed Madrid didn't make any official approach while we made some firm progress with both Pogba and Juventus, yet Alaba to Man City is nailed on despite Madrid has been sniffing around for him even this summer? Then Bayern stock pretty much higher than City as a club.
Not something I am aware off. I meant they had Martinez and prime Bastian, Gustavo and Kroos for the central midfield role. Heynckes doesn't mess around too much like Pep
As @Dr Pavel pointed put with Bielsa's Chile tactic. Pep has ever since the Mourinho Inter Milan game tried to devised a 3 or 5 at the back to counter a counter attacking side, even during his latter years at Barcelona. The fundamental difference back then due to the type of wide forwards Barcelona possessed back then. Pedro loves to run inside (he is not at good a dribbler). David Villa is a forward, he tends to play narrow despite sacrificed his central role for Messi. Alexis didn't adapt quick enough. Messi wants to play central. Even when he plays on the wing he should be closer to the center than keep wide like Bielsa's tactic. Iniesta on the wing forward would be a waste as well as Iniesta doesn't score enough to justify the role. Cesc would occupy the false 9 role which was exclusive to Messi... Therefore the wing backs were pushed higher up instead of "underlapping". Yet the passing pattern was overcomplex and ineffective that at the end, Pep switched back to 4-3-3.
LVG's Ajax also did use this kind of narrow full backs too as some other posters did point out in the past. Talking about LVG, he used 3 or 5 at the back when he first arrived in England, but use wide wing back due to he didn't trust out wing forwards and decided to go narrow up front (similar to the situation at Barcelona for Pep in his latter years). Perhaps Pep implements some new passing patterns and pressing tactic, but the underlapping full back usage is not some innovation in itself.
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This season is gonna be tiresome isn't it? I like Pep but the overpraising of City's performance in the first half yesterday was laughable. Was pretty van Gaal like.
One game. Just one game has passed.
Are we in the dark ages? Is experimentation frowned upon?
Are we in the dark ages? Is experimentation frowned upon?
The point is not about City's few games under Pep. It's about Pep's habit of tinkering around with his tactic all these years since his latter from Barcelona to Bayern and seems to carry on to City now. Bayern fans had still been wondering wtf was the purpose of his many tactic experiments back there. Oh and Koralov as CB.
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Nope. It was for maybe his first year, and then he started experimenting with false nine's, back three's, two up front... Sometimes it would be enforced by who was available, sometimes it was just him trying something new. After he bought Fabregas he really rethought things tactically and structurally, because he was trying to fit in him, Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets into the same side. Probably his most impressive and successful experiment was the 3-4-3 with a diamond midfield: not exactly original but certainly uncommon in the modern game:
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/29/barcelona-5-0-villarreal-tactics/
Pep is obviously not trying to bring the best out of Sagna and Clichy in the here & now, he's trying to establish a rudimentary tactical system to build on in the future. Expect him to experiment some more in the beginning and to try out players in unusual roles. I can very well imagine that Pep & City accept mediocre displays/results in the first months for the sake of laying a tactical fundament or even treat 2016/17 as a transitory season. (Which is not the same as not caring about results, but a different prioritisation.)
And don't forget there's still more than two weeks left in the transfer window, so it makes a lot of sense to expose his current players to his style of play and see who can keep up and who can't. I wouldn't be surprised if City will be after one or two full backs before September.
I don't think you can generalize like this. There is a not so small section among Bayern fans who appreciated Guardiolas tactical flexibility and saw its merits even though not everything worked out all the time.
And don't forget there's still more than two weeks left in the transfer window, so it makes a lot of sense to expose his current players to his style of play and see who can keep up and who can't. I wouldn't be surprised if City will be after one or two full backs before September.
I don't think you can generalize like this. There is a not so small section among Bayern fans who appreciated Guardiolas tactical flexibility and saw its merits even though not everything worked out all the time.