[Raees]

For a person who claims to have played as CDM you show little understanding of the kind of press a DM has to face and the kind of skill set that a player spending most of his time shielding the defence needs to have as compared to someone playing higher up the pitch. You make it sound like the press is uniform over all the areas of the pitch.

The closer to your own goal you play the lesser of a dribbling skill you need to be able to beat players and get out a compex situation. That's why you see goalkeepers and defenders getting better of onrushing opposition players with a simple feint of shouder nearly 99℅ of the time. If you wilt under pressure and give away the ball that 1% of time and opposition ends up scoring 70% of times out of that miniscule 1%, it doesn't really make a player not world class in his position. Defenders, CDMs, Goalkeepers get pressed by what one player? And that too when they have most of their own players available for a pass. It is not like they are stood near penalty area where every inch of grass is being contested.

People are comparing Carrick to the best DM's of his generation and rightly so because that is the tier of players who are directly above him. Therefore if people are saying he is as good as Xabi Alonso, then of course he will be compared against them.. not your average DM.

Yes defenders can get away with a feint and a fake pass, then carry the ball forward.. it sounds very easy but it takes confidence, and professionals are playing in front of thousands, where every little mistake could damage their career etc.. so whilst it sounds easy and a 'feint' it isn't that easy to pull off in the heat of a game.

Now, having said that, of course it is a major plus if your CDM can dribble and has a bag of tricks to turn to when on the verge of losing the ball and exposing the defence. But that is exactly what a player with the first touch ability of Carrick avoids. By saving that extra second after having to received the ball with correct foot and having turned in the right direction, he or any proper CDM nearly always avoid having to use dribbling skills. And even if he does get caught, he doesn't need to be able to do step overs or 360s to get out of there. A simple shoulder feint and a quick release will do. Which is what Carrick does so well that you think he lacks dribbling ability.

You talk about Carrick's first touch as if it is rock solid. What Carrick does if you watch him closely and there is nothing wrong in this, it is an asset in fact is that he finds space in which to receive the ball on the back foot and therefore it places less pressure on the quality of his first touch. Any midfielder worth his salt does that, but what separates truly gifted DM/DLP/CM's is that sometimes the game is so tight, and the other side is reading your movements so well.. that you might not be able to get into space to get that safe first touch and play the ball forward, or sometimes you can't play a pass back, get into space and get it back to face forwards again.. sometimes you have to just take the ball under pressure and wriggle around, lose your marker and play a clever pass forwards. This is where Carrick is found wanting, even in comparison to lesser midfielders like a Fletcher let alone midfielders like Alonso, Busquets.

England teams have always struggled with this basic concept of where the space is restricted, you need to just get on the ball and be brave.. instead the midfielders tend to go missing, pass back and we see the ball go long.. it is a constant theme with the english national team and Carrick is symptomatic of that flaw. In england we have a history of great passers, but on the ball skills is not seen as important whereas in Spain for example, that is not the case at all.

English midfielders outside of Scholes lack two things.. one is close control and good manipulation of the ball under pressure, and two.. they're off the ball movement to get on the ball is not good enough. A top tier CM, would keep moving and never stop to get the ball off the defenders, if he needs to go near the edge of his box, or go out wide to get on it he will do it. If you watch Verratti or Busquets, they'll get into the most bizarre positions just to get themselves on the ball to beat the opponent press. I agree with you that no midfielder should need to rely on their dribbling, if you are having to rely on it.. it means your off the ball movement hasn't been good enough. HOWEVER, in some games, it is so intense and the opposition is just too motivated for you to keep looking for that space.. so to avoid getting tired, you have to just take the ball under pressure and be brave.

Because Carrick's footballing IQ is so high, he has managed to carve out a magnificent career by just using his intelligence to get into nice areas of space and play the game at his tempo.. but whenever the situation has not been to his liking, he has struggled to impose his passing game on the opposition and it isn't because he can't pass a ball.. it is because he doesn't know how to create space, when there isn't any space in which to receive the ball.

You give examles of Busquets and Pirlo!! It is like saying you need a good passer of the ball to be a great defender because Pique, Puyol can do it when players like Vidic, Terry etc could easily be better on their day despite keeping their game limited to getting the ball out of the danger and hoofing it out of their half mindlessly. The core qualities, the absolute necessary ones, the ones that bring you plaudits and make you game changer are still the basic ones. Rest of the attributes you have acquired are simply an added bonus and won't help you dominate a game from such positions. Maybe prove of use once every 50 games but something you need to call upon during each and every game? Nope.

Of course we will give examples of Busquets and Pirlo because that is who he will rightfully be compared to (well personally agree with Devillish he shouldn't be compared to Pirlo because he is a pure DLP whereas Carrick is a hybrid CDM/DLP like Busquets/Alonso/Cambiasso. He's playing for a team that is one of the greatest in the history of the game, so he is of course going to be compared to top players of his era. How many times have you heard the phrase, Carrick is the 'english Pirlo' when he is nowhere near that quality on the ball and doesn't playmake to the same extent. It shows a lack of understanding of what Carrick is as a player.

Bringing up defenders, when we are talking about midfielders whose main purpose is to be in possession of the ball, recycle it, create it, win it.. I don't get that example at all. FWIW Terry and Vida were pretty decent on the ball, especially Terry who can pass the ball short or long off either foot, has scored a variety of goals and is pretty good at running with the ball when he needs to. If Vida and Terry were donkeys on the ball, I highly doubt they'd be playing for top teams like they did and rated so highly across the world.

Pirlo, with the kind of touch he has, could probably pull off ten consecutive around the worlds while Carrick may not be able to do two. I don't see how that is a barometer for comparison of their defensive capabilities. It just makes Piro a more complete player. Something Carrick or any other CDM doesn't really need to know to excel at his job. Does it occur to you that maybe Carrick is so strong in his fundamentals he doesn't really let himself dwell on the ball long enough to be crowded out and be exposed for his weaknesses over and over again? Sure you can find clips of him losing the ball due to lack of his dribbling ablities. But tell you what the man has been playing for over 6-7 years now and your clip won't even be 2 minutes long. THAT, my friend, is what makes a good CDM, not his ability to dribble out of pressure or the fact that he can't do a 360 like senor Busquets can.

Carrick is a good CDM. No he is an excellent CDM. But in the past few pages, people have compared him to GREAT CDM's. That requires more than just good fundamentals, it requires more than just being exceptional defensively and having a good eye for a pass.. it requires you to be able to control games in very difficult and uncomfortable surroundings. The fact he can't dribble out of pressure is an absolute key point which absolutely should be picked on when comparing him to his peers.. why? because it is the one attribute which has held him back from being on the level of world class DLPs.

His defensive capabilities, his eye for a pass, his engine.. these are all in the top bracket. You could argue his engine and defensive abilities are ahead of say Xabi Alonso. If you were to say to me what is a better midfield pairing in a 4-4-2, Carrick-Scholes or Alonso-Scholes, I'd say the former because Carrick's ability to cover the pitch is superior to Alonso and it would be a more balanced pairing. So I don't think he is far off an Alonso in most aspects of his game other than close control skills and confidence on the ball. The big thing which has held him back is that ability to deal with the high press.. if he had that in his locker, he'd be rated among the very best of his generation.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Pirlo should be compared to Scholes (in his late period of his career) not with Carrick.

Very true but, at the same time, so very difficult to comprehend by some. Or, perhaps, some do understand the difference between a holding midfielder and a deep lying play maker but choose to ignore it because it doesn't suit their narrative.

It's easy to talk about a player with Pirlo's abilities on the ball, he was a sight for sore eyes for any fan who appreciates the game. His dribbling skills were exquisite, there's no doubt about that. But talking about these skills as a prerequisite for the deepest midfielder role when Pirlo was always afforded the luxury of three very hard working midfielders ahead of him, either in Milan or in Turin, is an argument in extremis.

He was excellent on the ball but the whole system was build around him and tried to offer him all the space and time on the ball he needed to work his magic. As you said, some here try to tell us that we could play Pirlo next to Scholes (instead of Carrick-Scholes) with the next midfielder being... being Rooney in Fergie's 4411 and that Pirlo's dribbling skills alone would save his skin against high pressing. Of course, they wouldn't.

 

[Cassidy]

People are comparing Carrick to the best DM's of his generation and rightly so because that is the tier of players who are directly above him. Therefore if people are saying he is as good as Xabi Alonso, then of course he will be compared against them.. not your average DM.

Yes defenders can get away with a feint and a fake pass, then carry the ball forward.. it sounds very easy but it takes confidence, and professionals are playing in front of thousands, where every little mistake could damage their career etc.. so whilst it sounds easy and a 'feint' it isn't that easy to pull off in the heat of a game.




You talk about Carrick's first touch as if it is rock solid. What Carrick does if you watch him closely and there is nothing wrong in this, it is an asset in fact is that he finds space in which to receive the ball on the back foot and therefore it places less pressure on the quality of his first touch. Any midfielder worth his salt does that, but what separates truly gifted DM/DLP/CM's is that sometimes the game is so tight, and the other side is reading your movements so well.. that you might not be able to get into space to get that safe first touch and play the ball forward, or sometimes you can't play a pass back, get into space and get it back to face forwards again.. sometimes you have to just take the ball under pressure and wriggle around, lose your marker and play a clever pass forwards. This is where Carrick is found wanting, even in comparison to lesser midfielders like a Fletcher let alone midfielders like Alonso, Busquets.

England teams have always struggled with this basic concept of where the space is restricted, you need to just get on the ball and be brave.. instead the midfielders tend to go missing, pass back and we see the ball go long.. it is a constant theme with the english national team and Carrick is symptomatic of that flaw. In england we have a history of great passers, but on the ball skills is not seen as important whereas in Spain for example, that is not the case at all.

English midfielders outside of Scholes lack two things.. one is close control and good manipulation of the ball under pressure, and two.. they're off the ball movement to get on the ball is not good enough. A top tier CM, would keep moving and never stop to get the ball off the defenders, if he needs to go near the edge of his box, or go out wide to get on it he will do it. If you watch Verratti or Busquets, they'll get into the most bizarre positions just to get themselves on the ball to beat the opponent press. I agree with you that no midfielder should need to rely on their dribbling, if you are having to rely on it.. it means your off the ball movement hasn't been good enough. HOWEVER, in some games, it is so intense and the opposition is just too motivated for you to keep looking for that space.. so to avoid getting tired, you have to just take the ball under pressure and be brave.

Because Carrick's footballing IQ is so high, he has managed to carve out a magnificent career by just using his intelligence to get into nice areas of space and play the game at his tempo.. but whenever the situation has not been to his liking, he has struggled to impose his passing game on the opposition and it isn't because he can't pass a ball.. it is because he doesn't know how to create space, when there isn't any space in which to receive the ball.





Of course we will give examples of Busquets and Pirlo because that is who he will rightfully be compared to (well personally agree with Devillish he shouldn't be compared to Pirlo because he is a pure DLP whereas Carrick is a hybrid CDM/DLP like Busquets/Alonso/Cambiasso. He's playing for a team that is one of the greatest in the history of the game, so he is of course going to be compared to top players of his era. How many times have you heard the phrase, Carrick is the 'english Pirlo' when he is nowhere near that quality on the ball and doesn't playmake to the same extent. It shows a lack of understanding of what Carrick is as a player.

Bringing up defenders, when we are talking about midfielders whose main purpose is to be in possession of the ball, recycle it, create it, win it.. I don't get that example at all. FWIW Terry and Vida were pretty decent on the ball, especially Terry who can pass the ball short or long off either foot, has scored a variety of goals and is pretty good at running with the ball when he needs to. If Vida and Terry were donkeys on the ball, I highly doubt they'd be playing for top teams like they did and rated so highly across the world.



Carrick is a good CDM. No he is an excellent CDM. But in the past few pages, people have compared him to GREAT CDM's. That requires more than just good fundamentals, it requires more than just being exceptional defensively and having a good eye for a pass.. it requires you to be able to control games in very difficult and uncomfortable surroundings. The fact he can't dribble out of pressure is an absolute key point which absolutely should be picked on when comparing him to his peers.. why? because it is the one attribute which has held him back from being on the level of world class DLPs.

His defensive capabilities, his eye for a pass, his engine.. these are all in the top bracket. You could argue his engine and defensive abilities are ahead of say Xabi Alonso. If you were to say to me what is a better midfield pairing in a 4-4-2, Carrick-Scholes or Alonso-Scholes, I'd say the former because Carrick's ability to cover the pitch is superior to Alonso and it would be a more balanced pairing. So I don't think he is far off an Alonso in most aspects of his game other than close control skills and confidence on the ball. The big thing which has held him back is that ability to deal with the high press.. if he had that in his locker, he'd be rated among the very best of his generation.

How do you rank the DLPs of Carricks generation

 

[devilish]

Very true but, at the same time, so very difficult to comprehend by some. Or, perhaps, some do understand the difference between a holding midfielder and a deep lying play maker but choose to ignore it because it doesn't suit their narrative.

It's easy to talk about a player with Pirlo's abilities on the ball, he was a sight for sore eyes for any fan who appreciates the game. His dribbling skills were exquisite, there's no doubt about that. But talking about these skills as a prerequisite for the deepest midfielder role when Pirlo was always afforded the luxury of three very hard working midfielders ahead of him, either in Milan or in Turin, is an argument in extremis.

He was excellent on the ball but the whole system was build around him and tried to offer him all the space and time on the ball he needed to work his magic. As you said, some here try to tell us that we could play Pirlo next to Scholes (instead of Carrick-Scholes) with the next midfielder being... being Rooney in Fergie's 4411 and that Pirlo's dribbling skills alone would save his skin against high pressing. Of course, they wouldn't.

My thought is this

Pirlo was a superior player to Carrick. His passing was sublime, he was a better dribbler and a better leader.
Carrick could live without a DM, something Pirlo couldn't. Pirlo's best games came with either Gattuso or Vidal at his back.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

My thought is this

Pirlo was a superior player to Carrick. His passing was sublime, he was a better dribbler and a better leader.
Carrick could live without a DM, something Pirlo couldn't. Pirlo's best games came with either Gattuso or Vidal at his back.

True, Pirlo on the ball was one of the very best players of his generation (if not the best)and a great leader. Carrick's job on the pitch was much different in Ferguson's setup and as you said, if one wants to compare Pirlo with someone from United, that someone should be Scholes in his deeper role.

I think this whole discussion regarding Carrick leads to nowhere. I don't have any problem with people saying that both Alonso and Busquets are better players in terms of overall skills. I might even agree to an extent but i believe it also does Carrick some injustice. During the time Ferguson deployed his favorite 4411 (2007 and the post Ronaldo era) Carrick was asked to play the holding role under the toughest of circumstances: with a (pretty much) immobile deep lying play maker next to him and a second striker ahead of him in the #10 position. And he handled it magnificently for the most time (3 PL titles 07/11/13 with a pure 4411). It's a test that the other two haven't had to pass in their careers.

 

[devilish]

True, Pirlo on the ball was one of the very best players of his generation (if not the best)and a great leader. Carrick's job on the pitch was much different in Ferguson's setup and as you said, if one wants to compare Pirlo with someone from United, that someone should be Scholes in his deeper role.

I think this whole discussion regarding Carrick leads to nowhere. I don't have any problem with people saying that both Alonso and Busquets are better players in terms of overall skills. I might even agree to an extent but i believe it also does Carrick some injustice. During the time Ferguson deployed his favorite 4411 (2007 and the post Ronaldo era) Carrick was asked to play the holding role under the toughest of circumstances: with a (pretty much) immobile deep lying play maker next to him and a second striker ahead of him in the #10 position. And he handled it magnificently for the most time (3 PL titles 07/11/13 with a pure 4411). It's a test that the other two haven't had to pass in their careers.

As said, Carrick could live without somebody at his back. Pirlo couldn't. Pirlo should be compared to Scholes (similar upbringing) not to Carrick.

I also find any comparisions with Alonso and Basquets as a bit unfair. Basquets played in one of the strongest midfields the world had ever seen. Alonso's partners at Liverpool, Bayern and Real weren't too shabby either. Carrick on the other hand, entered a midfield, whom while still good, was already started to show some wear and tear. Scholes was around 32 when he signed and Giggs was 33. 3 years after he signed Ronaldo left and he was replaced with Valencia whom, with all due respect, is nowhere near to the Portuguese.

In my opinion Carrick is a victim, of being the last top quality CM United had. Between Robson's era and him, United enjoyed some of the finest midfielders in the world, from Robson to Ince, from Keane to Scholes right to Giggs. Fans got used of seeing United with a rock solid, top quality CM who rarely fails to meet high expectations. What Carrick does is therefore considered the norm for us rather then the exception. The same curse had been inherited by other top midfielders like Herrera and Pogba who are considered top quality outside OT but still hasn't got the seal of approval by our fans.

The very fact that Carrick is still our best CM speaks volumes of how good he is.

 

[Raees]

How do you rank the DLPs of Carricks generation

I will leave Pirlo out of this because for me he is a pure DLP, and unique in that respect and comparing Carrick to him doesn't make sense. Looking at CDM/DLP hybrids, by this I mean they aren't there just to destroy like a Hargreaves but pick up the ball and pass the ball out of defence. In terms of dealing with the high press.. I'd rank all the midfielders below ahead of him, they're all more nimble on the ball.

In no particular order:

• De Rossi
• Busquets
• Verratti
• Mascherano
• Cambiasso
• Alonso
• Javi Martinez
• Schweinsteiger
• Matic
• Makelele
• Motta
• Kante
• Fernandinho

If we take all facets of their game into play and then rank them, taking into account their consistency over the years.. then it would be as follows:

• De Rossi/Busquets/Schweinsteiger/Makelele
• Verratti
• Mascherano
• Alonso/Cambiasso
• Javi Martinez*/Matic
• Motta
• Kante/Fernandinho

*peak form pre Pep arrival


Take this performance by Matic, it is just an average performance but when you break it down.. his ability to carry the ball under pressure is actually superior to Carrick's. I think United fans have been so deprived of good midfielders during the latter end of Fergie's reign that when we see an excellent one like Carrick, we have deified him to a level which is undeserved.

I'd place Carrick in terms of ability near that Martinez/Matic bracket, but due to his longevity and consistency, I'd place him above them.

 

[Raees]

The very fact that Carrick is still our best CM speaks volumes of how good he is.

The very fact he is still our best midfielder at 35, says alot about the way United's approach to midfield play was during the past 8 years. When Carrick is your star midfielder for what is close to 5 years, you've fecked up big time as a side.

 

[devilish]

The very fact he is still our best midfielder at 35, says alot about the way United's approach to midfield play was during the past 8 years. When Carrick is your star midfielder for what is close to 5 years, you've fecked up big time as a side.

Yes and no.

I agree that a 35 year old shouldn't be our best midfielder. God know how many times I said that in this forum.

There again unlike an aged Scholes or Giggs who were given a guaranteed place with barely any competition whatsoever, an aged Carrick has to play with the likes of Herrera and Pogba, the latter being considered among the top 6 CM in the world. Ok they don't directly play in his role. Having said that, if he doesn't keep to their pace he'll be found out.

Its amazing that a 35 year Carrick is able to play alongside beasts like Mata, Pogba and (decent talent) like Herrera without looking stupid. There again, a young Carrick didn't look out of place alongside the best CM of his generation either.

 

[Raees]

Yes and no.

I agree that a 35 year old shouldn't be our best midfielder. God know how many times I said that in this forum.

There again unlike an aged Scholes or Giggs who were given a guaranteed place with barely any competition whatsoever, an aged Carrick has to play with the likes of Herrera and Pogba, the latter being considered among the top 6 CM in the world. Ok they don't directly play in his role. Having said that, if he doesn't keep to their pace he'll be found out.

Its amazing that a 35 year Carrick is able to play alongside beasts like Mata, Pogba and (decent talent) like Herrera without looking stupid. There again, a young Carrick didn't look out of place alongside the best CM of his generation either.

He complements them because for the first time he has two technically outstanding midfielders in front of him, which means he has guys around him who can pick the ball off him. Carrick can now focus more on his defensive game which for me has always been top notch.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Interesting debate going on here.

I wonder how these midfielders like Alonso and Macherano and Pirlo would do with partners like Cleverley and Anderson and Gibson or even Park, a 35 plus Giggs and immobile Scholes.

Also Carrick mostly played in midfields with touchline hugging wingers. Hell loads of times he literally had one partner!

Was Carrick poor under pressure or was our system as a whole poor under pressure?

People forget that before the Messi Barca domination we were the best side in the world and even made the CL final without Ronaldo . Carrick was instrumental that whole time and still is.

 

[Cassidy]

Interesting debate going on here.

I wonder how these midfielders like Alonso and Macherano and Pirlo would do with partners like Cleverley and Anderson and Gibson or even Park, a 35 plus Giggs and immobile Scholes.

Also Carrick mostly played in midfields with touchline hugging wingers. Hell loads of times he literally had one partner!

Was Carrick poor under pressure or was our system as a whole poor under pressure?

People forget that before the Messi Barca domination we were the best side in the world and even made the CL final without Ronaldo . Carrick was instrumental that whole time and still is.

I think he is sometimes poor under pressure, all players have some type of floor. When he was able to find space he would kill teams

 

[Manny]

Interesting debate going on here.

I wonder how these midfielders like Alonso and Macherano and Pirlo would do with partners like Cleverley and Anderson and Gibson or even Park, a 35 plus Giggs and immobile Scholes.

Also Carrick mostly played in midfields with touchline hugging wingers. Hell loads of times he literally had one partner!

Was Carrick poor under pressure or was our system as a whole poor under pressure?

People forget that before the Messi Barca domination we were the best side in the world and even made the CL final without Ronaldo . Carrick was instrumental that whole time and still is.

Yeah, someone made a point about Carrick not dropping deep between the CB or moving out wide to receive the ball like Busquets would, without acknowledging the fact that Busquets had Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Neymar to move centrally whereas at United it would have meant our best midfielder has vacated his position and left it to the ilk of Cleverley and Anderson to look after or Valencia and Young to play off from the wings.

There are some things that Carrick just couldn't get away with in the United teams he's had to play in.

 

[mintsnake4]

I actually can't cope thinking about a Utd squad without Carrick in it.. Cuts me so deep.

 

[Rob Bowman]

A question that needs to be asked is: Since when have United had a functioning midfield like the current one, all those years? If you don't have partners who can also support, then of course your opponents will need to target you and only you. Pirlo, Alonso, Busquets... have all had premier partners to help them in midfield. Tell me whom with Carrick since Scholes and maybe when FLetcher was still 100%?

Being marked by Park was a compliment to Pirlo's importance to the team, it's a different story to whether he was able to handle that press or not. For any points you raise to defend Pirlo, those exact points can be used to support Carrick.

Exactly... ofc teams would target Carrick to press high and expect results because who else will help him?

Look at who Pirlo had as Juve and a Alonso had at Real and compare them to what Carrick had to work with.

Honestly how is it not a compliment that Barca in 09 CL Final targeted Carrick as the key to shutting us down?

 

[rotherham_red]

How anyone can think Carrick is overrated is beyond me. He was a one man midfield when Scholes retired. Utterly flabbergasted how many times he proved me wrong when I said we lacked too much in midfield to challenge for the league.

Honestly, can you imagine his contemporaries being able to excel with some of the piss-poor players he had to put up with after Scholes left?

 

[Mike09]

Your clips haven't proved anything? The first clip is Carrick playing a pass while surrounded by players, well yes. Carrick is reknowned for his passing.. who doubted that... the second clip is him running into space while facing forwards, and the third clip.. he is in acres of space, so where is this magnificent footwork under pressure that you speak of.

Look having played CDM - trust me when I say, footwork is very important in that role especially in the modern game where focused pressure to stop teams from playing out via their DM is very important. You don't need the footwork of a winger - although the very best like Verratti have exceptional ball skills, but you do need to have some tricks in your locker to avoid being closed down.

Being very comfortable on the ball, allows you to have the confidence to shield the ball, get around the guy who is pressing you and being able to create your own space to make the forward pass. Guys like Busquets, Verratti are geniuses in that regard.. you can't press them because their footwork is too good. I've seen Busquets pull off 360 spins, when he is being put under pressure and still keep the game moving forward.


Video of Pirlo's dribbling skills, another level to Carrick.

If you think footwork is not important in midfield, you either don't pay enough attention to the game or you haven't played in midfield. If you are a coward on the ball in midfield, and you always pass back or sideways under pressure, your team will struggle to get a foothold of the game and they can impose their game on you.

Obviously Carrick isn't a complete donkey in this regard, he is a champions league class DM but he is definitely lacking in the footwork respect compared to the world class DM's of the past 10 years and the clips you showed don't prove that he can consistently throughout a game, handle a press.. turn his man and keep the game moving forward. Even Fletcher was better than him in this regard, he was more comfortable in tight spaces and wouldn't pass back under pressure.

People confuse Carrick's brilliant passing ability for being comfortable on the ball. Being able to spot and execute a pass is one thing, but being able to carry the ball under pressure while your back is to goal and you've just recieved a pass from your CB's is a different skillset. It is the skillset which separated Scholes from guys like Gerrard/Lampard.. who when put in centre mid where space can be congested, didn't know how to create time on the ball.. he had more silkiness on the ball and better awareness in tight spaces.

Since LVG came, he has actually gained in confidence under pressure but there is no doubt at his physical prime, he was not great under a press.

I can see that you didn't watch the whole video.

Firstly, the clips of him being under pressure aren't just the first three. There are more such as the one against Real at home and etc, obviously Im not going to waste my time to point out every single one of them so you go watch it.
And about the first three clips that I mentioned, it looks to me that you didn't pay attention on them. The first clip is clearly the situation of Carrick in a tight place when players aren't giving him space and time to think and Carrick still managed to passed it to his teammate. The second clip Silva was dropping back to put a pressure on Carrick from behind and Carrick's awareness saw this coming. The third clip, Carrick was awared that someone was closing him down very tight so he handled the situation by making a quick pass. The first three clips that I mentioned was just showing you that Carrick can also handle a situation when he is in a tight situation or under pressure.

Second, I have already asked you this and I am going to ask you this question again since you keep posting videos of tricky skills footwork of 2 players.
Do we judge midfielder based on their footwork skills?? And clearly Carrick who doesn't have a footwork skills has become a more important midfielder than the likes of Herrera and Veron who have better footwork skills.
I never said Carrick has a great footwork skills of midfielder. All I have been saying is that he can handle a high pressure from the opposition player even in a tight spot. But you made it sounds like that in order to be considerd as a player who can handle high pressure they need to be a footballer with a great footwork skills. I can see why a lot of people underrated Carrick since he can't do fancy skills.

Oh by the way the Pirlo video. I don't know why it is called "dribbling skills" when majority the clips are not even about dribble. I can also see from your post that it seems you are changing the topic from Carrick could collapse like a pack of card when under pressure to Carrick is lacking with his footwork skills. I will repeat this again, I never said Carrick has a top class level of footwork skills or has a better footwork skills than Pirlo and Busquest, but I disagree with people who said Carrick can't handle a pressure or could collapse like a pack of card when under pressure. It sounds to me that you don't read my post properly at all.

 

[sullydnl]

People are comparing Carrick to the best DM's of his generation and rightly so because that is the tier of players who are directly above him. Therefore if people are saying he is as good as Xabi Alonso, then of course he will be compared against them.. not your average DM.

Yes defenders can get away with a feint and a fake pass, then carry the ball forward.. it sounds very easy but it takes confidence, and professionals are playing in front of thousands, where every little mistake could damage their career etc.. so whilst it sounds easy and a 'feint' it isn't that easy to pull off in the heat of a game.




You talk about Carrick's first touch as if it is rock solid. What Carrick does if you watch him closely and there is nothing wrong in this, it is an asset in fact is that he finds space in which to receive the ball on the back foot and therefore it places less pressure on the quality of his first touch. Any midfielder worth his salt does that, but what separates truly gifted DM/DLP/CM's is that sometimes the game is so tight, and the other side is reading your movements so well.. that you might not be able to get into space to get that safe first touch and play the ball forward, or sometimes you can't play a pass back, get into space and get it back to face forwards again.. sometimes you have to just take the ball under pressure and wriggle around, lose your marker and play a clever pass forwards. This is where Carrick is found wanting, even in comparison to lesser midfielders like a Fletcher let alone midfielders like Alonso, Busquets.

England teams have always struggled with this basic concept of where the space is restricted, you need to just get on the ball and be brave.. instead the midfielders tend to go missing, pass back and we see the ball go long.. it is a constant theme with the english national team and Carrick is symptomatic of that flaw. In england we have a history of great passers, but on the ball skills is not seen as important whereas in Spain for example, that is not the case at all.

English midfielders outside of Scholes lack two things.. one is close control and good manipulation of the ball under pressure, and two.. they're off the ball movement to get on the ball is not good enough. A top tier CM, would keep moving and never stop to get the ball off the defenders, if he needs to go near the edge of his box, or go out wide to get on it he will do it. If you watch Verratti or Busquets, they'll get into the most bizarre positions just to get themselves on the ball to beat the opponent press. I agree with you that no midfielder should need to rely on their dribbling, if you are having to rely on it.. it means your off the ball movement hasn't been good enough. HOWEVER, in some games, it is so intense and the opposition is just too motivated for you to keep looking for that space.. so to avoid getting tired, you have to just take the ball under pressure and be brave.

Because Carrick's footballing IQ is so high, he has managed to carve out a magnificent career by just using his intelligence to get into nice areas of space and play the game at his tempo.. but whenever the situation has not been to his liking, he has struggled to impose his passing game on the opposition and it isn't because he can't pass a ball.. it is because he doesn't know how to create space, when there isn't any space in which to receive the ball.





Of course we will give examples of Busquets and Pirlo because that is who he will rightfully be compared to (well personally agree with Devillish he shouldn't be compared to Pirlo because he is a pure DLP whereas Carrick is a hybrid CDM/DLP like Busquets/Alonso/Cambiasso. He's playing for a team that is one of the greatest in the history of the game, so he is of course going to be compared to top players of his era. How many times have you heard the phrase, Carrick is the 'english Pirlo' when he is nowhere near that quality on the ball and doesn't playmake to the same extent. It shows a lack of understanding of what Carrick is as a player.

Bringing up defenders, when we are talking about midfielders whose main purpose is to be in possession of the ball, recycle it, create it, win it.. I don't get that example at all. FWIW Terry and Vida were pretty decent on the ball, especially Terry who can pass the ball short or long off either foot, has scored a variety of goals and is pretty good at running with the ball when he needs to. If Vida and Terry were donkeys on the ball, I highly doubt they'd be playing for top teams like they did and rated so highly across the world.



Carrick is a good CDM. No he is an excellent CDM. But in the past few pages, people have compared him to GREAT CDM's. That requires more than just good fundamentals, it requires more than just being exceptional defensively and having a good eye for a pass.. it requires you to be able to control games in very difficult and uncomfortable surroundings. The fact he can't dribble out of pressure is an absolute key point which absolutely should be picked on when comparing him to his peers.. why? because it is the one attribute which has held him back from being on the level of world class DLPs.

His defensive capabilities, his eye for a pass, his engine.. these are all in the top bracket. You could argue his engine and defensive abilities are ahead of say Xabi Alonso. If you were to say to me what is a better midfield pairing in a 4-4-2, Carrick-Scholes or Alonso-Scholes, I'd say the former because Carrick's ability to cover the pitch is superior to Alonso and it would be a more balanced pairing. So I don't think he is far off an Alonso in most aspects of his game other than close control skills and confidence on the ball. The big thing which has held him back is that ability to deal with the high press.. if he had that in his locker, he'd be rated among the very best of his generation.

Largely agree with this, though I would probably have Alonso a bit more comfortably ahead.

 

[finneh]

People are comparing Carrick to the best DM's of his generation and rightly so

Fantastic post. Really fantastic.

Carrick is a really, really good player but he has always had a really obvious and somewhat fatal flaw that is only highlighted when against a truly elite pressing opposition or a mediocre opposition who find a perfect cocktail of stifling tactics. When looking at him in a conversation with the truly great deep midfielders of our generation, his inability to deal with pressure stands out like a sore thumb and always has done.

It's of course obvious in games against the likes of Barcelona, particularly in their prime, but that's easy to shrug off. However it's also been very obvious sporadically when we've faced a less talented midfield who're hungry, aggressive, fit and coordinated.

There is a reason why a lot of out fans have watched us against the likes of Barton, Tiote, Schneiderlin and many others and thought that they could do a job for us. It isn't their talent but their ability in the right circumstance to stifle us simply by not allowing Carrick space.

I've said for years that Carrick is one of the few really good players whose performances are as much based on opposition tactics as it is on his own form. This isn't usually a problem as he's been part of teams whereby the opposition have many other things to worry about and his intelligence in 95% of situations means he'll find the space amongst much chaos.

However his achilles heel I feel would always be highlighted in the absolute top echelon of Football, which prevents him from being elevated from the "really good" to "great" category (not that this is a slight).

 

[Raees]

I can see that you didn't watch the whole video.

Firstly, the clips of him being under pressure aren't just the first three. There are more such as the one against Real at home and etc, obviously Im not going to waste my time to point out every single one of them so you go watch it.
And about the first three clips that I mentioned, it looks to me that you didn't pay attention on them. The first clip is clearly the situation of Carrick in a tight place when players aren't giving him space and time to think and Carrick still managed to passed it to his teammate. The second clip Silva was dropping back to put a pressure on Carrick from behind and Carrick's awareness saw this coming. The third clip, Carrick was awared that someone was closing him down very tight so he handled the situation by making a quick pass. The first three clips that I mentioned was just showing you that Carrick can also handle a situation when he is in a tight situation or under pressure.

Second, I have already asked you this and I am going to ask you this question again since you keep posting videos of tricky skills footwork of 2 players.
Do we judge midfielder based on their footwork skills?? And clearly Carrick who doesn't have a footwork skills has become a more important midfielder than the likes of Herrera and Veron who have better footwork skills.
I never said Carrick has a great footwork skills of midfielder. All I have been saying is that he can handle a high pressure from the opposition player even in a tight spot. But you made it sounds like that in order to be considerd as a player who can handle high pressure they need to be a footballer with a great footwork skills. I can see why a lot of people underrated Carrick since he can't do fancy skills.

Oh by the way the Pirlo video. I don't know why it is called "dribbling skills" when majority the clips are not even about dribble. I can also see from your post that it seems you are changing the topic from Carrick could collapse like a pack of card when under pressure to Carrick is lacking with his footwork skills. I will repeat this again, I never said Carrick has a top class level of footwork skills or has a better footwork skills than Pirlo and Busquest, but I disagree with people who said Carrick can't handle a pressure or could collapse like a pack of card when under pressure. It sounds to me that you don't read my post properly at all.

Carricks passing has never been an issue so for you to post clips of him passing whilst surrounded by players is pointless as it wasn't a issue we were arguing over.

Anyway I've made my point and for you to say I'm trying to say we judge a footballer only on footwork skills is getting silly .. I clearly haven't said that and have spoken about all the other attributes which Carrick brings to the table.

I said that in most aspects Carrick is equal to his peers on a global level but it's this one aspect which has really hindered him. If you watch any match compilation of Carrick and compare it to that of an Alonso (especially post Liverpool) you'll see a big gulf in class in terms of comfort on the ball.

 

[rollingstoned1]

Largely agree with this, though I would probably have Alonso a bit more comfortably ahead.

Disagree, at their best I would say Busquets and Pirlo were better than Carrick but Alonso was never on another level here in the PL and generally was around about the same level even after going to Madrid considering that Carrick had some really good seasons at the end of Fergie's reign. Had he been playing on the continent in 3 man midfields at that time he would have looked even better than he did here and would've got a lot more credit.

 

[Ephrem]

People are comparing Carrick to the best DM's of his generation and rightly so because that is the tier of players who are directly above him. Therefore if people are saying he is as good as Xabi Alonso, then of course he will be compared against them.. not your average DM.

Yes defenders can get away with a feint and a fake pass, then carry the ball forward.. it sounds very easy but it takes confidence, and professionals are playing in front of thousands, where every little mistake could damage their career etc.. so whilst it sounds easy and a 'feint' it isn't that easy to pull off in the heat of a game.




You talk about Carrick's first touch as if it is rock solid. What Carrick does if you watch him closely and there is nothing wrong in this, it is an asset in fact is that he finds space in which to receive the ball on the back foot and therefore it places less pressure on the quality of his first touch. Any midfielder worth his salt does that, but what separates truly gifted DM/DLP/CM's is that sometimes the game is so tight, and the other side is reading your movements so well.. that you might not be able to get into space to get that safe first touch and play the ball forward, or sometimes you can't play a pass back, get into space and get it back to face forwards again.. sometimes you have to just take the ball under pressure and wriggle around, lose your marker and play a clever pass forwards. This is where Carrick is found wanting, even in comparison to lesser midfielders like a Fletcher let alone midfielders like Alonso, Busquets.

England teams have always struggled with this basic concept of where the space is restricted, you need to just get on the ball and be brave.. instead the midfielders tend to go missing, pass back and we see the ball go long.. it is a constant theme with the english national team and Carrick is symptomatic of that flaw. In england we have a history of great passers, but on the ball skills is not seen as important whereas in Spain for example, that is not the case at all.

English midfielders outside of Scholes lack two things.. one is close control and good manipulation of the ball under pressure, and two.. they're off the ball movement to get on the ball is not good enough. A top tier CM, would keep moving and never stop to get the ball off the defenders, if he needs to go near the edge of his box, or go out wide to get on it he will do it. If you watch Verratti or Busquets, they'll get into the most bizarre positions just to get themselves on the ball to beat the opponent press. I agree with you that no midfielder should need to rely on their dribbling, if you are having to rely on it.. it means your off the ball movement hasn't been good enough. HOWEVER, in some games, it is so intense and the opposition is just too motivated for you to keep looking for that space.. so to avoid getting tired, you have to just take the ball under pressure and be brave.

Because Carrick's footballing IQ is so high, he has managed to carve out a magnificent career by just using his intelligence to get into nice areas of space and play the game at his tempo.. but whenever the situation has not been to his liking, he has struggled to impose his passing game on the opposition and it isn't because he can't pass a ball.. it is because he doesn't know how to create space, when there isn't any space in which to receive the ball.





Of course we will give examples of Busquets and Pirlo because that is who he will rightfully be compared to (well personally agree with Devillish he shouldn't be compared to Pirlo because he is a pure DLP whereas Carrick is a hybrid CDM/DLP like Busquets/Alonso/Cambiasso. He's playing for a team that is one of the greatest in the history of the game, so he is of course going to be compared to top players of his era. How many times have you heard the phrase, Carrick is the 'english Pirlo' when he is nowhere near that quality on the ball and doesn't playmake to the same extent. It shows a lack of understanding of what Carrick is as a player.

Bringing up defenders, when we are talking about midfielders whose main purpose is to be in possession of the ball, recycle it, create it, win it.. I don't get that example at all. FWIW Terry and Vida were pretty decent on the ball, especially Terry who can pass the ball short or long off either foot, has scored a variety of goals and is pretty good at running with the ball when he needs to. If Vida and Terry were donkeys on the ball, I highly doubt they'd be playing for top teams like they did and rated so highly across the world.



Carrick is a good CDM. No he is an excellent CDM. But in the past few pages, people have compared him to GREAT CDM's. That requires more than just good fundamentals, it requires more than just being exceptional defensively and having a good eye for a pass.. it requires you to be able to control games in very difficult and uncomfortable surroundings. The fact he can't dribble out of pressure is an absolute key point which absolutely should be picked on when comparing him to his peers.. why? because it is the one attribute which has held him back from being on the level of world class DLPs.

His defensive capabilities, his eye for a pass, his engine.. these are all in the top bracket. You could argue his engine and defensive abilities are ahead of say Xabi Alonso. If you were to say to me what is a better midfield pairing in a 4-4-2, Carrick-Scholes or Alonso-Scholes, I'd say the former because Carrick's ability to cover the pitch is superior to Alonso and it would be a more balanced pairing. So I don't think he is far off an Alonso in most aspects of his game other than close control skills and confidence on the ball. The big thing which has held him back is that ability to deal with the high press.. if he had that in his locker, he'd be rated among the very best of his generation.

Wow..Great Post !!

Carrick is not the very best out there ..but he just lacks a thing or two that separates him the very best.

Hope we dont try replacing him ... !

 

[Brwned]

Opinions of Alonso vs. Carrick are ridiculous. Bayern fans and Madrid fans have criticised Alonso in exactly the same way we have for years. Namely...

Toni handles pressure so much better than Xabi, it's not funny. Alonso is good as long as he's given space and time. The moment he's being pressed, he crumbles. That is the big difference between him and Toni, who still finds a solution when one or two guys stand on his heels

 

[Mike09]

Carricks passing has never been an issue so for you to post clips of him passing whilst surrounded by players is pointless as it wasn't a issue we were arguing over.

Anyway I've made my point and for you to say I'm trying to say we judge a footballer only on footwork skills is getting silly .. I clearly haven't said that and have spoken about all the other attributes which Carrick brings to the table.

I said that in most aspects Carrick is equal to his peers on a global level but it's this one aspect which has really hindered him. If you watch any match compilation of Carrick and compare it to that of an Alonso (especially post Liverpool) you'll see a big gulf in class in terms of comfort on the ball.

Mate, you are missing the point here. In the clips I was showing you some of examples how Carrick was able to handle a high pressure in a tight space. He doesn't need a trick or footwork skills. With his quick decision making, first touch passing and a good awareness, a midfielder can still handle a high pressure without relying on "footwork skills".
Who cares about other aspects about Carrick!! I was only talking about Carrick can also handle a high pressure from the opposition players! Nothing else! And you replied it by saying Carrick can't handle a pressure or could collapse like a pack of card when under pressure and I disagree with that. Stop talking about something that has nothing to do with Carrick is able or unable to handle pressure!

 

[thepolice123]

I said that in most aspects Carrick is equal to his peers on a global level but it's this one aspect which has really hindered him. If you watch any match compilation of Carrick and compare it to that of an Alonso (especially post Liverpool) you'll see a big gulf in class in terms of comfort on the ball.

I don't deny that Alonso is the more confident player on the ball but to say that there is a big gulf in class is just ridiculous. Alonso struggled greatly against teams with a high press and got exposed so many times its not even funny. He has faced so much criticisms on this.

Alonso will be remembered as the better player because he's Spanish, but there's isn't much difference between them.

 

[SteveW]

Amazing to think we all thought he was leaving last summer. His kids were on the pitch after the last game and everything. Remember thinking it was a huge mistake to let him go. Thankfully it never happened.

 

[Sandikan]

I wonder when the exact moment was that Jose realised Carrick is one of our top 3 must plays!

 

[Stack]

I wonder when the exact moment was that Jose realised Carrick is one of our top 3 must plays!

He will have worked it out on the training pitch

 

[Sandikan]

He will have worked it out on the training pitch

Not in that massive stack of draws then?

Fielding Carrick-Herrera-Pogba as a 3 felt like one of those big defining moments of the season. Like VG lucked out in Falcao and VP being out, and we stumbled across a Fellaini/Young combo that saw us through that crazy purple patch.

Getting Martial and Mhky at top level will hopefully be the next big improvement.

 

[Stack]

Not in that massive stack of draws then?

Fielding Carrick-Herrera-Pogba as a 3 felt like one of those big defining moments of the season. Like VG lucked out in Falcao and VP being out, and we stumbled across a Fellaini/Young combo that saw us through that crazy purple patch.

Getting Martial and Mhky at top level will hopefully be the next big improvement.

Its on the training pitch that a coach first sees if a player will adapt or take on his ideas, its on the training pitch that a coach sees the player the most. For every game a player plays there is at least 5 games worth of time on the training pitch. Stand out at training and a coach will eventually have to play you. Its how a player gets his chances. Ask any coach.

Unfortunately too many fans appear to think that all that has to be done is mix and match the right players to get the right balance and everything falls into place. Probably a function of everyone playing FIFA or FM games and so we get these simplistic views.

Last season we played a certain way under LVG, there were consistent passing routines in place and LVG bored the hell out of us.
This season there are a couple of passing sequences/routines being used consistently that give us a little hint at the changes happening via the training pitch. One of them for example is the frequent use of the pass/return/through sequence.

The way LVG had us playing wasnt a function of mix and matching players etc, the way Mourinho has us playing isnt a function of mixing and matching players.
It all comes down to whats done on the training pitch and how a manager is working the players to get his vision of how a team plays to come to fruition. The players that adapt and change to fit a managers vision will get a chance, the first place they are able to show they understand is at training.

 

[Leftback99]

I wonder when the exact moment was that Jose realised Carrick is one of our top 3 must plays!

He should have worked it out long before he started really as it's been so obvious for a few years. Jose's plan for us was seemingly to play a system with a lot more Fellaini which he has since abandoned.

If anything it was probably seeing actual games rather than training which changed his mind.

 

[Pexbo]

I wonder when the exact moment was that Jose realised Carrick is one of our top 3 must plays!

I think he always knew how good he is, he just maybe looked for a long term option first or maybe he felt it took him a little longer to get to get to match fitness than the others or he knows it's a marathon rather than a sprint and he wants him to be in shape for the run in.

 

[Escobar]

Get a good replacement in the summer must be our top priority

 

[Mike09]

I don't deny that Alonso is the more confident player on the ball but to say that there is a big gulf in class is just ridiculous. Alonso struggled greatly against teams with a high press and got exposed so many times its not even funny. He has faced so much criticisms on this.

Alonso will be remembered as the better player because he's Spanish, but there's isn't much difference between them.

Hard to believe how can some people are complaining when they compare Carrick with Alonso but agree that Carrick is the same class as Barry, Parker and Thiago Mendes. Neither these three can be as influence as Carrick right now if we have them in our XI even at their prime.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

One thing for sure is, players of this mould don't exist in abundance.

Replacing him with an equally two footed player, with the ability to read a game as well and an ability to start attacks from the back is a huge ask.

Carrick and Alonso are my favourite type of midfielder. If there is another one out there, buy him!

 

[ManUnitedCanuck]

I've stated this before and will continue to state it. Carrick has been one of the most underrated players in the Prem over recent years. Seems like only in his latter years has he started to get recognition, as he was dropped and we'd see the effects. Not saying on this forum but in general, from pundits etc.

He's not a dynamic player but makes everything look so simple. His positioning is fantastic, which allows him to intercept passes or be in the right spot to break up an attack. And going forward, I think we all know the key passes he can play from deep. Not a goal scoring midfield that most people rate very highly, for a reason, but a fantastic player that has been immense for us.

The lack of England caps is criminal in my mind. I understand the level of talent in the squad with Lampard and Gerrard, but they were not the right fit to play together as we had seen many times. With Carrick playing behind one of them, I think England would have been much more balanced. Similar to the Scholes situation with England.

Will be sad to see hiim hang them up one day. For me when Rooney and himself are no longer at United, I'll feel that generation has moved on, as they feel as the remaining ones from those great mid 2000 teams.

 

[Freak]

I wonder when the exact moment was that Jose realised Carrick is one of our top 3 must plays!

It was really a learning process for Jose. He probably thought due to Carrick's age, he must plan to start phasing him out but then realised that other than Pogba, Herrera and Carrick, his other midfielders were pretty much unreliable.

 

[MAME DIOUF 32]

Get a good replacement in the summer must be our top priority

Yep, but I don't think it's that easy. I can't immediately think of a player with the same skill set. He's very good both defensively and creatively. We could spend £100m on Veratti and still not get what we need.

 

[Escobar]

Yep, but I don't think it's that easy. I can't immediately think of a player with the same skill set. He's very good both defensively and creatively. We could spend £100m on Veratti and still not get what we need.

This has been discussed so many times before. Most likely, we will not find a similar player, like we didn't when we replaced Keane.

 

[clarkydaz]

maybe by trying to find the new Carrick we'll find the new Keane