Should Mourinho bring in a new 'attacking coach'

dichinero

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100% agree with the OP. With José, it's all too rudimentary in the attacking sense. It's like 80% on 'lets not lose' and 20% 'lets see how we can win'. It may have served him well in the past but manager's of so called lesser clubs have become tactically better over the years, and even with lesser players that know how to try to 'park the bus'. It's up to the so called 'world class' managers to evolve.

Our players not scoring is an issue in itself but the approach to attack is all too repetitive and basic, it lacks all the intricacies and dynamic pattern play that we see from other teams.
 
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GM K

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You tried to be funny but it failed miserably.


Anyway I think not. We just need to be more clinical in front of goal. We don't have a problem in creating chances which means our attacking play is ok although it weared of a bit recently. We need a winger,a true pacy winger who can score and put a good cross. Ana Maybe a new striker depending on Zlatan situation.
Spot on.
 

PabloPachanga

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A lot more people would be laughing at this kind of thread a month or 2 ago. Certainly people think it was a bit ridiculous to suggest jose does not know much about attacking (counter attacking asides) when a few including me said we thought so.

But of course, it does not mean it is true.

We just have to wait and see till next season.

The only thing that kind of concern me about reading this thread was when duffy said his chelsea team in 2nd season didn't show much of improvement in terms of points. Not to mention his usual 3rd season shit.

But then again, it would be hard not to do it with us next season as this season has been pretty meh.
A lot of it is confidence. How good are people at doing their jobs when they are constantly told they are shite?

Come Sunday it'll be 6-3-1 again. Reallt hope it all finally clicks and we go for it and get a bit of luck that we have been lacking
 

Womp

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A lot of it is confidence. How good are people at doing their jobs when they are constantly told they are shite?

Come Sunday it'll be 6-3-1 again. Reallt hope it all finally clicks and we go for it and get a bit of luck that we have been lacking
Yes because we were sinking goals in for fun before he started questioning them.
 

PabloPachanga

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:lol: Yep, we went from hitting the post to skying shots over the bar now.
Yep or corner flag ducking.
:lol: Yep, we went from hitting the post to skying shots over the bar now.
From 40 yards out... In all seriousness I hope it clicks as we are due a performance... Be nice on Sunday.

We dont need an attacking coach surely thats already in place as we have coaches for everything and also an asst manager? He's no Mike Phelan tho.
 

The United

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A lot of it is confidence. How good are people at doing their jobs when they are constantly told they are shite?

Come Sunday it'll be 6-3-1 again. Reallt hope it all finally clicks and we go for it and get a bit of luck that we have been lacking
Jose has his own mind game to work with players. Which is fine as long as it gives us positive outlook for the performance. He would have to take responsibility too if it does not work. We can't just blame on players all the time.

If players are to perform at their max and know what to do exactly when you tell them well lads, now have a go at them, score 3 goals for us and win, then I suppose I could be united manager and my team would win some. I don't think it is that easy.

People used to say how players raise their level and run the wall for SAF because SAF was like a behemoth for them in term of football. And look how he usually acted with them in public normally.

All the players who become top class have to be mentally strong in way. They have to be.

But to get some edge, I think it is all on their managers especially if the manager is someone as high standard and class like Jose to look up. I don't know. I think being a bit more positive on public even if you think differently in private might and could give that kind of edge to players from a manager like Jose.

But, like everyone said we will know next season.
 

dbs235

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If this (potential) attacking line-up still couldn't score next season then there's something wrong. Rashford off the bench too.

Ibrahimovic
Martial Griezmann Mkhitaryan
 

frank lee madeer..

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A leopard never...
I find the thought that Jose would bring in a specialist attacking coach laughable...It's basically an admission of a deficiency in his abilities...its not going to happen.

Last season's figures .Zlatan, 50 goals, mkhi 20 odd , martial, 18, Mata 10ish, rashford 10ish ( half season ) pogba 8ish, the thought that these players aren't capable of scoring more goals, is also laughable.

The problem is a lack commitment from Jose to let them really attack and get forward in sufficient numbers due to concerns about leaving holes at the back.

It's far more feasible to me that ( knowing Jose's makeup as a coach ) he should look to bring in some more defensively aware players, players who spot danger quicker and are more likely to clean up & defend the holes that form when you commit more men forward.

Commit more creative players forward in support , score more, simple.
 
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MDFC Manager

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We've hired and sacked managers, we've spent millions upon millions on new players. And it hasn't worked. So yeah, let's hire attacking coaches to see if the works
 

The Skipper

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As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)
 
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Raees

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As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)
Brilliant insight - thanks for that.
 

wolvored

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Or you could just buy some forwards who can do what forwards are meant to do.

Put Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Solskjaer in this squad and Jose would be a genius again.
Thats it in a nutshell. When someone did a report of chances created, we were 2nd. This points to really bad finishing, and if you cant put the ball in the net, then you need to be replaced. All the coaching in the world wont help when its a split second decision. Now Martial and Rashford may be having 2nd season syndrome, but can we afford to let things be and hope it was? Imo we need at least one proven striker who has scored regularly for a few seasons, and a goal scoring winger, who can actually cross a ball as well, not just an inverted forward.
 
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Jazz

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As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)
My biggest fear is that he'll do just that. I can see him building up to it from his actions so far. It's a shame really as I can see our board letting him do this, which I'm sure they'll regret after he goes.

Anyway, thanks for posting this. Very good read.
 

frank lee madeer..

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As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)
Agree with a lot of that.
Jose has not improved his blueprint in recent years , and every team has had plenty of time to study it....this makes him very predictable , guardiola currently suffers from the same thing.
What Conte has done , is move José's blueprint onto the next level ( in time this too will become predictable unless he evolves it ) As I see it , conte commits fully to attacking in groups & also he commits fully to defending in groups. He has 2 definite groups of 4 defenders ( 3 cbs & kante ) & 4 attacking players ( fabregas, hazard costa pedro . His 2 wing backs are multi purpose floaters who attack & defend.
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
10,006
You've got to be messing? You think the answer is we need to sign MORE players. That's the problem. Since Fergie left, we've signed a mountain of attacking players, mostly world class. Mata, Falcao, Di Maria, Martial, Ibrahimovic....you can be guaranteed that the problem is NOT that we don't have the talent.

The problem is clear; these brilliant, world-class talents are trying to live up to our - the fans - expectation that we should be winning everything every year. That's not how football works. Our expectations are insane. Fergie's gone lads. Let's get back into the real world.

I think we will make it back to the top, we are the richest club in the world, we have one of the best academies in world sport and we have one of the greatest managers in the game. But we need to chill the feck out. Relax. The answer is not in the transfer market Buying and selling and dabbling is what has us inconsistent in result. It's shocking what we have done in the transfer market over the past three summers...embarassing is what I would call it. We need to chill out. I think it's mortifying for you to say our attackers haven't ben good enough. Just look at the list of attackers we've had since Fergie's left...insane!

The problem is clearly mental. We are still trying to live up to the expectations laid down by the greatest manager of all time. Expecting our success to just roll over and continue post Fergie is delusion an a massive scale. It'll come back around for us again, but you need to relax.
Ibra aside none of these are world class playing or when they played for Utd. Falcao and Di Maria were parodies of themselves, and Mata is a good player but not world class. Martial may be one day but is a long way from it at the moment.
 

wolvored

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Isn't this what being a fan on a football forum is about?
Well said. Whats the point of a Utd forum if all us genius's cant debate where we are going wrong. Some people literally take it too seriously
 

The United

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Sep 14, 2015
Messages
5,824
As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)
So I thought I was the only one who thought his last title winning team was boring and meh in that season. Some say the league quality was shit last season. I thought the season before that was almost equally bad.

That chelsea team was boring as hell in 2nd half of the season whenever I watched them.
 

NoLookPasser

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Messages
283
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/04/14/antonio-conte-ripped-jose-mourinho-blueprint-chelsea/

There is an article from Telegraph today on what Conte is doing differently at Chelsea which gives a little more clarity on this topic.

Like Arrigo Sacchi and Louis van Gaal, two of the biggest tactical influences on his career, Conte prefers creativity to stem from the system rather than individuals. “Players must put their talent into the team,” he says. And so while Chelsea’s fluid movement, quick interchanges and lightning counter-attacks may look spontaneous, they are anything but.

Conte likes a training routine called 11 v 0 (also known as shadow play), in which the team practises attacking combinations without opposition. The exercise can be customised to include special instructions, like a cross, or a maximum of one touch each, but the objective is the same: to keep repeating attacking moves until they become, as Eden Hazard puts it, “automatism”.

Added to this is the painstaking video analysis of which Conte is a helpless devotee. He even wrote his coaching thesis on it. Sessions routinely last more than an hour, which originally met with some resistance from the squad. But once the results started rolling in, they could see the benefits for themselves. “He prepares us precisely about every opposing side, so we go into each game with the correct plan,” said Willian.

This is a clean break from the Mourinho era. Mourinho is brilliant at organising a defence, but his approach to attacking play is pretty basic. In fact, at most of his clubs, it consists largely of signing or inheriting an established world-class striker and letting them get on with it. “Mourinho put in a system, but we didn’t work lots,” Hazard said recently. “We know what to do, because we play football, but maybe the automatisms were a little bit different.”
 

itso 7

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Ibra aside none of these are world class playing or when they played for Utd. Falcao and Di Maria were parodies of themselves, and Mata is a good player but not world class. Martial may be one day but is a long way from it at the moment.
Tbf we haven't had managers or systems set up to get the best out of our attacking players. Its always that players, especially flair players, play worse for us than they did for their previous clubs and it shows that the issue is systemetic not reflective of their abilities as players. Take the Pogba example, we all knew where he excelled at and the euros confirmed that but what have we done to ensure that we get the best out of him? I dont know why Mourinho abandoned the three men midfield that saw the best out of Pogba from November to January after the Liverpool match, for example. And we need to recognize that our best players are either still too young/settling in the league/at the end of their careers so consistent performances are not guaranteed as yet but the manager shouldn't react to the shit performances in a way that will destroy a player's confidence. I sometimes wonder whether Mourinho would have been able to nurture talents like Ronaldo, Giggs and Rooney.
 

Red Devil 26

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As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)
Thanks for the great insight. Worrying reading for us Utd fans.
 

Champagne Football

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Only yesterday Diego Costa was hailing Mourinho for making him a much better striker. Rashford too has been singing Jose's praises for improving him. Ibrahimovich thinks Jose's the best in the business and he also played under Guardiola, Koeman, Blanc etc...Damian Duff has hailed Mourinho as a genius in the past. So it's not like Jose has no idea what he's doing when it comes to working with forwards. The only worry I have with Jose is that he prefers to spebd 100 million a player when we may already have an equally good kid in the ranks who will be at that level in a couple of years with the right coaching. I'm not sure if having Jose here will be financially sustainable for the club long term.
 

sunama

Baghdad Bob
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
16,862
When teams park the bus and we're restricted to crossing a lot, we look particularly clueless. I think we just don't have the personnel to suit the way Mourinho likes to attack. Can we honestly say any of our wingers or full-backs can cross a ball? Maybe Blind but other than that they're all shite.
This is true.
But my suggestion would be that Martial and Rashford are young enough to learn how to cross - assuming that these 2 will be our left wingers for the foreseeable future.
Valencia struggles to cross - unfortunately he won't be improving anytime soon, due to his age.
IMO, more pressure needs to be placed on Martial to improve, as he is at an age where he should be making the LW position, his own. Crossing drills and staying back after all other players have finished training....Ronaldo style.

Or you could just buy some forwards who can do what forwards are meant to do.

Put Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Solskjaer in this squad and Jose would be a genius again.
Correct.
I said this many times last season, when people were fawning over Martial. In that 1999 squad, Martial would not be good enough to even make the bench! Our attack is so bad now, that we rely on a 19 year old and a 35 year old.
I think it's time to buy 2 quality attackers who are in their prime. Jose was put under a lot of pressure to play the youth, but even Fergie did not do what we are seeing right now (ie. play a 19 year old as a first team attacker).
In Fergie's last year, he realised that he needed a quality attacker. He brought in RVP - a player in his prime. He didn't waste time or money with teenagers.

He should bring in a new bus driver. The old one must be pretty worn down from avoiding all the players Mourinho has tried to throw under the bus.
:lol:
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
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Tbf we haven't had managers or systems set up to get the best out of our attacking players. Its always that players, especially flair players, play worse for us than they did for their previous clubs and it shows that the issue is systemetic not reflective of their abilities as players. Take the Pogba example, we all knew where he excelled at and the euros confirmed that but what have we done to ensure that we get the best out of him? I dont know why Mourinho abandoned the three men midfield that saw the best out of Pogba from November to January after the Liverpool match, for example. And we need to recognize that our best players are either still too young/settling in the league/at the end of their careers so consistent performances are not guaranteed as yet but the manager shouldn't react to the shit performances in a way that will destroy a player's confidence. I sometimes wonder whether Mourinho would have been able to nurture talents like Ronaldo, Giggs and Rooney.
I think most people know or knew that he wasn't that type of manager, personally I tried to convince myself that he might have used his 6 months out of job to adapt his plans to United but apparently he didn't and he will be a manager for ready made players for the entirety of his career.
 

buckooo1978

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i think a change in approach is necessary

we need quicker players, we need more technically gifted players, we need players with better movement, we need players who can finish, we need players to make better decisions, we need players with the right character

its inevitable that we are going to face teams where around 80% or more are going to defend in numbers against us

when you play someone like Ibra its inevitable that attacks will be slower and you will find that teams can organise better

Lingard lacks the ability to start for us and really should be the reserve to the reserve

Fellaini has no creativity or technical ability apart from the delicious chest control

Rashford can be a bit predictable as can Martial- i think there's is more sn issue of confidence and you wonder are they playing with too much pressure... one average game and you are dropped

Pogba's decision making can be suspect but I think that will improve in time

Young and Rooney dont add anything.....

Mata and Mhiki are the ones I've seen as most reliable but they've been subbed far too often

coaching is obviously important but I think a change of personel is needed

Ibra, Rooney, Fellaini, Young swapped for four dynamic attacking players would fix it
 

itso 7

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I think most people know or knew that he wasn't that type of manager, personally I tried to convince myself that he might have used his 6 months out of job to adapt his plans to United but apparently he didn't and he will be a manager for ready made players for the entirety of his career.
Then we need to get rid of him as soon as practically possible (like if he establishes us in the CL) because relying on ready made players is not financially sustainable plus it doesn't allow for the connection between fans and the team.
 

El Jefe

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For now, I'd give Jose the benefit of the doubt.

Our players lack crucial qualities. We have no good crossers of the ball, poor finishers, poor long range shooting, average set piece delivery. I get that Jose's tactics can make life harder for us at times but if we had players with these qualities in the team it would make it easier for us to score.

Some Chelsea fans are being a bit disingenuous btw. The football they played in the first half of 14/15 was a joy to watch.

Jose does not need an attacking coach that's absolute bollocks. He needs players that suit his style, specifically counter attacking and clinical players. Pep would be clueless if he had players that didn't suit his style.
 

Andersons Dietician

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You tried to be funny but it failed miserably.


Anyway I think not. We just need to be more clinical in front of goal. We don't have a problem in creating chances which means our attacking play is ok although it weared of a bit recently. We need a winger,a true pacy winger who can score and put a good cross. Ana Maybe a new striker depending on Zlatan situation.
I thought it was pretty funny. Especially with the Jose being a bus driver and the history of him and buses.
 

wolvored

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Tbf we haven't had managers or systems set up to get the best out of our attacking players. Its always that players, especially flair players, play worse for us than they did for their previous clubs and it shows that the issue is systemetic not reflective of their abilities as players. Take the Pogba example, we all knew where he excelled at and the euros confirmed that but what have we done to ensure that we get the best out of him? I dont know why Mourinho abandoned the three men midfield that saw the best out of Pogba from November to January after the Liverpool match, for example. And we need to recognize that our best players are either still too young/settling in the league/at the end of their careers so consistent performances are not guaranteed as yet but the manager shouldn't react to the shit performances in a way that will destroy a player's confidence. I sometimes wonder whether Mourinho would have been able to nurture talents like Ronaldo, Giggs and Rooney.
Mourinho is a 'finished article' type of manager, maybe with a younger player a bit of room for the players to improve; Bailey and Pogba for example. Neither Rashford or Martial would have been here/playing last season if Mourinho had have started a season earlier. Saying that we wouldnt have been scrambling about for 4th place this season as he would of bought in finished article players last summer. I'm still confidant that next season, with more finished article players, we will be putting away lots of the same chances we missed this season and will finish top 3 at least.
 

Classical Mechanic

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We have the second highest amount of shot per game in the league. We bottle big chance after big chance. He needs to imbue our forwards with confidence or buy some more prolific attackers.
 

hirotan69er

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Does he even have one? What is Rui Faria's role as the Assistant Manager?

If we ever need one, why don't be bring in someone like ten Cate? He was brilliant at Barcelona & saved Chelsea after Mourinho got sacked for the first time.
 

Andersons Dietician

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Can't see it making much of a difference. Jose is defensive by nature and that unfortunately causes issues for the forward players.
They look confused between when they can go and when they can't. Martial this week was the apitimy of this. He seemed more interested in defending than risking losing his man for getting in to a better space and causing a threat.
We will never be a free flowing attacking team under Jose. Defence comes first. No attacking coach will change that without breaking Joses defensive rules.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Only yesterday Diego Costa was hailing Mourinho for making him a much better striker. Rashford too has been singing Jose's praises for improving him. Ibrahimovich thinks Jose's the best in the business and he also played under Guardiola, Koeman, Blanc etc...Damian Duff has hailed Mourinho as a genius in the past. So it's not like Jose has no idea what he's doing when it comes to working with forwards. The only worry I have with Jose is that he prefers to spebd 100 million a player when we may already have an equally good kid in the ranks who will be at that level in a couple of years with the right coaching. I'm not sure if having Jose here will be financially sustainable for the club long term.
History is written by the winners.

Marco Silva is the greatest thing since sliced bread at the moment with his tactical style and emphasis on micromanaging his players on the pitch yet when LVG does the same at United whilst failing to qualify for the CL it is the worst thing in the world.
 

andersj

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As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)
Fantastic post. I said when Conte arrived that he is everything Mourinho wants to be. Mourinho on steroids. This posts summarizes why. Why I believe Mourinho is greatly overrated. Why I was schocked to see how many welcomed him to Man Utd. The Telegraph-article below your post is also great.

That being said, I like Mourinho as a person. I also think he is great at identifying what a team needs/lack.
 

TheReligion

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I find it odd Chelsea fans appearing to tell us how they are much better off without Jose despite him being their most successful manager in history.

Very odd. Almost false dare I say it.
 

roonster09

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Lot of history has been re written in this thread.
 

Classical Mechanic

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I find it odd Chelsea fans appearing to tell us how they are much better off without Jose despite him being their most successful manager in history.

Very odd. Almost false dare I say it.
Amazing how his tactical genius saw him fail in Europe consistently with Juventus as well. Maybe Mou's attacking tactical naivety works in Europe.
 

roonster09

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Fantastic post. I said when Conte arrived that he is everything Mourinho wants to be. Mourinho on steroids. This posts summarizes why. Why I believe Mourinho is greatly overrated. Why I was schocked to see how many welcomed him to Man Utd. The Telegraph-article below your post is also great.

That being said, I like Mourinho as a person. I also think he is great at identifying what a team needs/lack.
Conte is everything Jose wants to be? Like winning multiple European trophies with different teams?