Should Mourinho bring in a new 'attacking coach'

[Nighteyes]

I think Bergkamp is 4 and half star rated Attacking coach on FM, maybe this will help.

That's what I usually do on FM or if the player attributes are good I bring in a coach who can improve mentality.

 

[hubbuh]

Which paper? That's rather an arrogant attitude I think. If you had a combined Utd/Spurs XI how many Utd players would get in it, based on this seasons form? De Gea, Herrera, Ibra ahead of Kane?

Do you not know the difference between on paper and in form?

 

[red4ever 79]

At the beginning of the season, our squad was held as at top 3 if not 2.

I was clearly speaking irrespective of form.

how am I being 'arrogant' - my first sentence was 'Currently watching Spurs with envy' - wind your neck in.

You wind your neck in.. Paper. Even on paper I would still take most of their players as individuals, even at the start of the season.

 

[red4ever 79]

Do you not know the difference between on paper and in form?

Ah the old paper versus form excuse. Glad to see on paper we would win the league then.

 

[The_Order]

You wind your neck in.. Paper. Even on paper I would still take most of their players as individuals, even at the start of the season.

Then disagree with my opinion on the basis that yours is different, don't call me arrogant for coming to a conclusion on what is held as the general consensus. Overall, we have a better squad than Spurs.

But they have a better team.

 

[WR10]

I don't think there's much of an issue about the team structure. We need more clinical players. Prime example of that - compare how many goals we've scored with Zlatan on the pitch to when he's not.

It's not Jose or his coaching - he knows how to shoot, he just needs the right guns

 

[Raoul]

We need more creativity and flair to bring the best out of the other attackers imo. Think peak Nani or the like.

 

[midnightmare]

The whole concept seems bizarre. If you watch the games, it should be apparent that it's not chance-creation or intent or build-up that's the issue, but just tucking away the damn chance. We've missed more sitters and convert-able (to the naked eye, forget stats) than any other team in the league. I don't quite see how that's down to Jose not being an attack-minded coach or not knowing how to coach attackers. Every team has shooting practice; I'm fairly certain that United have this too and it's not like Jose dares them to just do it on the pitch without any time spent on it otherwise.

Jose's teams have set scoring records too, so it's not like he just relies on drab 1-0s. This season alone, the frustration stems from not converting clear dominance (not just of possession, but position and chances) into goals because of absolutely rotten finishing. Even Zlatan, despite his scoring, has missed a hatful. This is nothing like Karanka whose team never looked like even being in a scoring position. So no, I don't think we need an attacking coach etc. We just need better goalscorers or need our goalscorers to learn how to hit at least a barn door. Mkhi, Lingard, Martial, Rashford, Pogba... None of them has been "held back" like under LvG. They're getting the freedom to "express" themselves. It's just that they've been rotten at applying that final touch...

 

[Dec9003]

Too many attacking players are under performing; this can't be solely on the players! Something is going wrong as most of them were the best at their position last season!

We've finished outside the top four with three different managers, struggling to score goals in all the seasons.
None of them were the best player in their position last season.

 

[Silas]

I don't believe introducing a new style of attack is necessarily what we need. According to Squawka, we're third in the league in terms of chance creation. It's pretty clear that it's not necessarily our attacking patterns that are the problem, moreso the lack of adequate finishing to make use of the chances we create. It's even more obvious this is the issue when you look at where we stand in a table based on conversation rate; sitting in 18th, third worst in the league.

Based on this, I'd say the lack of goals is very much down to the players in this case as opposed to being the result of negative tactics. It's hard to argue that poor finishing is the fault of the manager as Mourinho can't decide where the players aim their shots, but it's obvious that a greater amount of focus and detail needs to be put into shooting training . Mourinho's no idiot however, so I'm sure he recognises something has to be done (he most likely already is taking action in regards to drills), and looking at who we're supposedly targeting this summer (Griezmann), bringing in natural world-class finishers will be a big step in the right direction. As such, bringing in an attacking coach probably isn't seen as a necessary step at the moment.

 

[TheReligion]

I don't believe introducing a new style of attack is necessarily what we need. According to Squawka, we're third in the league in terms of chance creation. It's pretty clear that it's not necessarily our attacking patterns that are the problem, moreso the lack of adequate finishing to make use of the chances we create. It's even more obvious this is the issue when you look at where we stand in a table based on conversation rate; sitting in 18th, third worst in the league.

Based on this, I'd say the lack of goals is very much down to the players in this case as opposed to being the result of negative tactics. It's hard to argue that poor finishing is the fault of the manager as Mourinho can't decide where the players aim their shots, but it's obvious that a greater amount of focus and detail needs to be put into shooting training . Mourinho's no idiot however, so I'm sure he recognises something has to be done (he most likely already is taking action in regards to drills), and looking at who we're supposedly targeting this summer (Griezmann), bringing in natural world-class finishers will be a big step in the right direction. As such, bringing in an attacking coach probably isn't seen as a necessary step at the moment.

At last! Someone who makes sense and posts the stats to prove it.

The forwards have been dismal this season. You only have to look at the breakdown of our goals scored. Mata and Zlatan aside the rest really need a rocket or expect them to be moved on in the summer.

You can't blame everything on the coach.

 

[LoveFootball]

We've finished outside the top four with three different managers, struggling to score goals in all the seasons.
None of them were the best player in their position last season.

We've finished 5th last season with Martial being our best outfield player and scoring 17 goals in the process! Then we added Ibrahimovic (best player in the French league with 51 goals, 1 less than Messi), Pogba (Best player in the serie A and 1 of the best midfielder in the world before he came here), Mkitharyan (best Bundesliga player of the season, he scored and created 30 gaols) and Bailly (one of the best defender in la Liga)!
Add Mata, Rashford to mix and you have an attacking force capable of scoring more than 70 goals a season!
Right now only Ibra has more than 20!
Strange! Let not put all the blames on the players and admit that something is going wrong and need to be addressed!

 

[#07]

I don't believe introducing a new style of attack is necessarily what we need. According to Squawka, we're third in the league in terms of chance creation. It's pretty clear that it's not necessarily our attacking patterns that are the problem, moreso the lack of adequate finishing to make use of the chances we create. It's even more obvious this is the issue when you look at where we stand in a table based on conversation rate; sitting in 18th, third worst in the league.

Based on this, I'd say the lack of goals is very much down to the players in this case as opposed to being the result of negative tactics. It's hard to argue that poor finishing is the fault of the manager as Mourinho can't decide where the players aim their shots, but it's obvious that a greater amount of focus and detail needs to be put into shooting training . Mourinho's no idiot however, so I'm sure he recognises something has to be done (he most likely already is taking action in regards to drills), and looking at who we're supposedly targeting this summer (Griezmann), bringing in natural world-class finishers will be a big step in the right direction. As such, bringing in an attacking coach probably isn't seen as a necessary step at the moment.

The facts to back up what I could see with my eyes.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

We've finished 5th last season with Martial being our best outfield player and scoring 17 goals in the process! Then we added Ibrahimovic (best player in the French league with 51 goals, 1 less than Messi), Pogba (Best player in the serie A and 1 of the best midfielder in the world before he came here), Mkitharyan (best Bundesliga player of the season, he scored and created 30 gaols) and Bailly (one of the best defender in la Liga)!
Add Mata, Rashford to mix and you have an attacking force capable of scoring more than 70 goals a season!
Right now only Ibra has more than 20!
Strange! Let not put all the blames on the players and admit that something is going wrong and need to be addressed!

Don't think anyone has put all the blame on the players for what's happened since SAF retired... that's why we sacked two managers who were highly regarded prior to these struggles.

 

[Manny]

As a Chelsea fan it isn't surprising to see a post like this come up. Chelsea fans were used to discussing this sort of stuff, and there were often polarising opinions like there were on here, especially during his second stint with us. It seems like he's still struggling to settle on what identity he wants this team to have, or like he can't execute the identity he wants the team to have, for various reasons.

Now I must say, from my opinion, the OP has a valid shout. Jose relies on his forwards individual quality a lot, and also likes to create counter attacking opportunities for his team. Problem is, at big clubs like United, that ideal scenario for him doesn't happen too often. Too often do the likes of United and CFC face low block, defensive teams and that's where his teams seem to struggle to create high quality chances. His teams still create chances, but not many of them are of high quality.

A high majority of United's goals seem to come from crosses and set pieces - the threat from the middle of the park isn't high at all, and against low blocks that's a very important part of the attacking philosophy you have - one thing systems that are successful against these sort of teams have in common is that they all stretch the opposition so that they can create chances through the middle of the park. Restricting yourself to just crossing mostly in these situations makes your attack seem blunt.

Just to bring in an example closer to home; Conte implements the juego de posicion/positional play philosophy for how his teams attack, and it's honestly refreshing to see compared to how we used to transition going forward. The contrast in how we move forward with the ball and how we break down low blocks is just very different, a lot more organised. You can see recognisable patterns in our forward play now, and most importantly, it's seems a lot more diverse in general. Almost like the players have a collective playbook in their head on how to approach different situations. Conte has managed to figure out how to use his attacking players to maximum effect.

There are two main problems with Jose when it comes to this issue:
1. He relies on individual quality too much, even though he's put such player at a disadvantage tactically.
2. He hasn't figured out how to use United's more potent attacking players effectively.

To expand on number one, I'll present the case of Eden Hazard. Hazard was at times loaded with way too much defensive work which meant that he wouldn't be able to effect the game to the best of his abilities. Instead of having him closer to the final third where he can settle games, he spent a lot of time marking the opposition full back almost all the way to the byline.

Now Eden's is a great talent so they found a way to make it work somewhat - he still had a great year in the title winning season as he was still deciding games - but he wasn't reaching his full potential. The following season he had a very bad year - in my opinion Mourinho overworked him last season which contributed to the lack of form and a couple of injuries in the season. Also, teams by then had worked out that Chelsea set up their attacks in a pretty simply way - get the ball to Fabregas or Hazard who would usually provide some magic, or search out for Costa. Fabregas usually played the long ball to Costa, which is easy to deal with in a low block, or find Hazard on the left wing, who only had options to pass predictably to the inside of the pitch, and was often double teamed, due to Mourinho's full back choices (refused to play one of the best LBs at the time in Filipe Luis in the title winning season and preferred the more defensifely solid Azpilicueta to play in an unnatural position despite a declining Ivanovic, and even continued to do so after having a summer to purchase a left back he actually liked). Eden was double teamed as Azpilicueta rarely made a threatening overlapping run, thus a lot less effective on the ball as he was isolated. Eden was rarely in the best position to effect the game, which is what Mourinho is failing to do with some of the more talented United players.

Which brings me to my second point: he's not putting the talented United forwards/midfielders in the best position to truly effect the game and create high quality chances. To bring up the Hazard example again, he now finally looks like he'll continue to evolve as a player, whereas under Jose he looked like he's reached his peak. This is due to one simple change Conte brought about - he decided to put Hazard in an area he's more dangerous in - far further forward. He also fixed another major issue which was to bring in a fullback who would complement Eden and the whole team in fact, by providing quality overlaps from full/wingbacks, thus opening the game up more for him, which makes Eden far more effective. Jose is failling to do this with some incredible talent, and his handling/man management hasn't been the best, to add to this. Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan and Rashford come to mind.

I feel like some players are way too isolated to create high quality chances. Zlatan's link up play kind of is being under utilised - he's very effective at keeping the ball under pressure, which gives you the option of holding up the play effectively, which can bring in other players, and create gaps for other players to move into. A false 9 is almost like a pivot, but the mechanism of that pivot is barely being moved. It's a shame Pogba and Zlatan haven't developed a close relationship which brings them together more often than not because it could've been a lot more devistating. It's actually a bit of a staple in Jose's old game plan at CFC - I thought Zlatan and Pogba would have a Drogba/Lampard type relationship but it just hasn't been there for various reasons.

At United he has much better attacking full backs in Valencia and Shaw but they aren't used to create space for their team mates effectively because Jose is naturally conservative and this can be detrimental to the team going forward. He'll rarely have both fullbacks bombing forward. He naturally doesn't like taking these risks. That's the sort of manager he is and he's well within his rights to be like that because as he's shown in his career, with the right players it can be very effective. His systems are usually set up to take advantage of mistakes, rather than proactively create opportunities where these mistakes or even just top class moves can happen through good attacking football. It's a shame because some players like Martial or Mkhitaryan would really benefit from constantly having these sorts of movements around them, creating more space for them to implement some damage.

The United squad right now isn't suited to play the way Jose truly is used to, but you have to ask yourself as a United fan - are you okay with him essentially performing complete surgery on the squad? He'll get rid of a talent like Martial and bring in a more Mourinho esque player in someone like Perisic, who in my opinion is of less quality because Martial has a pretty high ceiling. He did the same at CFC who had built up a very impressive set of attacking talent. He had Lukaku, De Bruyne, Mata, Schurrle, Hazard and Willian at a point at Chelsea, and managed to let quite a few of them go. De Bruyne and Lukaku are now some of the best in their position, and Mata is still doing a decent job at United. They got replaced by more Mourinho-esque players like Mo Salah and Cuadrado who both failed to impress. A similar thing can happen at United, with the way things are looking.

There just doesn't seem to be a good identity when United go forward with the ball. There doesn't seem to be a joy when the players get the ball back to push on and get that goal. Compare that to how we look to score more often than not when we do regain the ball now, and it's day and night almost. Chelsea's attacking philosophy is clear - use wingbacks to stretch the opposition to create the three forwards more space centrally to create quality chances. It's difficult to stop because we put our best players in the areas of the pitch where they can effect the game well. With United it's still not.

We had the same problem at CFC - it started much more promising in his second term with us of course, but he reverted back to what's more natural to him due to a few bad results around January in his second season and performances since then went on a slow decline. This might be presumptuous, but with United it seems like he's hit that place already.

We'll definitely know for sure how things will turn out next season though. Jose can't afford to continue like this when he'll have another transfer window to get who he wants. Next season is make or break for him.

(PS - sorry for the lengthy post, and thank you for reading.)

Great post.

Can't argue with your critique of Mourinho. I'm not sure why some are so outraged by it.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I don't believe introducing a new style of attack is necessarily what we need. According to Squawka, we're third in the league in terms of chance creation. It's pretty clear that it's not necessarily our attacking patterns that are the problem, moreso the lack of adequate finishing to make use of the chances we create. It's even more obvious this is the issue when you look at where we stand in a table based on conversation rate; sitting in 18th, third worst in the league.

Based on this, I'd say the lack of goals is very much down to the players in this case as opposed to being the result of negative tactics. It's hard to argue that poor finishing is the fault of the manager as Mourinho can't decide where the players aim their shots, but it's obvious that a greater amount of focus and detail needs to be put into shooting training . Mourinho's no idiot however, so I'm sure he recognises something has to be done (he most likely already is taking action in regards to drills), and looking at who we're supposedly targeting this summer (Griezmann), bringing in natural world-class finishers will be a big step in the right direction. As such, bringing in an attacking coach probably isn't seen as a necessary step at the moment.

Statistically yes these are true. However the stats paint a false picture that isn't accurate at all. Baring in mind that a lot of these chances are from floated balls in to the box and not really us carving people open.

Have we missed sitters yes we have but blaiming it on poor finishing for me is a lazy scape goat that takes away from the true nature of why we are where we are and that is because as a team including the manager we haven't been good enough.

I mean statistically Valencias stats make him sound like the best RB in the world. Anyone having watched him can easily say that isn't true.

Same logic goes for our 'chances created'

 

[Manny]

Yeah, shots/chances created doesn't tell the whole story.

It's not unusual for Herrera to have two, three or four shots from outside the area that go high and wide. Same with Pogba.

We never cut a side open for our share of those easy tap ins.

 

[Silas]

Statistically yes these are true. However the stats paint a false picture that isn't accurate at all. Baring in mind that a lot of these chances are from floated balls in to the box and not really us carving people open.

Have we missed sitters yes we have but blaiming it on poor finishing for me is a lazy scape goat that takes away from the true nature of why we are where we are and that is because as a team including the manager we haven't been good enough.

I mean statistically Valencias stats make him sound like the best RB in the world. Anyone having watched him can easily say that isn't true.

Same logic goes for our 'chances created'

Squawka's definition of a chance is a pass that leads to a shot on goal. Thus, the majority of the crosses that contributed to the stat would've been the dangerous balls, not the loopy ones that are easily defended, so they should still be counted in my book seeing as we can score from them just like with any other chance. How can such clear stats create a 'false picture'? Even if we perhaps created a few less real chances than suggested and so had a slightly better conversion rate, the disparity between the two would still be huge and lead to a fairly obvious conclusion that our finishing is simply appalling. It isn't just statistically true, it's blatantly true. Sorry, but saying the stats don't paint the full picture is just a poor argument, especially when stats aren't even necessary to see that we're terribly wasteful in front of goal.

How can poor finishing be a scapegoat for our lack of goals when good finishing is the most fundamental part of scoring goals? Then you then go on to scapegoat the manager instead. The reason we are where we are is because we don't score enough goals, not because we don't create enough chances. Just look at Thursday against Anderlecht; a better style of play or whatever you want implemented wouldn't have led to Pogba scoring that chance if he found himself in that situation again. Even if we create more chances, we'll still end up missing a majority of them so why not focus on becoming more efficient first? Unless you're expecting Mourinho to get on the pitch and score himself, I don't see how can this be blamed on him. Wanting improved management to increase the number of chances and thus improve the goal count would just be a way of compensating for our poor finishing, rather than dealing directly with the issue. If all those sitters we've missed were put away instead, would anyone be complaining? We create enough chances to wrap up games, the problem is that we don't make use of them.

Rather than trying to create more chances, leading to a situation where we're throwing enough mud at the wall that some of it eventually sticks, how about we make it easier for ourselves and sort out our finishing so we don't need to create 20 chances per game to win 1-0?

 

[Cassidy]

No but he should probably bring someone in who can coach/teach young players

 

[#07]

Yeah, shots/chances created doesn't tell the whole story.

It's not unusual for Herrera to have two, three or four shots from outside the area that go high and wide. Same with Pogba.

We never cut a side open for our share of those easy tap ins.

We've missed more big chances (chances you'd expect to score according to Opta) than anyone else in the league. We have one on ones virtually every game that we don't score. I think Pogba has more completed through balls than anyone in the league.

It's not true that we don't make good chances. We do, and we miss them. Is anyone really gonna be surprised if we have a one v one tomorrow and it gets hit right at Courtois? I mean Mata managed to hit the Hull goalie from three yards...

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Squawka's definition of a chance is a pass that leads to a shot on goal. Thus, the majority of the crosses that contributed to the stat would've been the dangerous balls, not the loopy ones that are easily defended, so they should still be counted in my book seeing as we can score from them just like with any other chance. How can such clear stats create a 'false picture'? Even if we perhaps created a few less real chances than suggested and so had a slightly better conversion rate, the disparity between the two would still be huge and lead to a fairly obvious conclusion that our finishing is simply appalling. It isn't just statistically true, it's blatantly true. Sorry, but saying the stats don't paint the full picture is just a poor argument, especially when stats aren't even necessary to see that we're terribly wasteful in front of goal.

How can poor finishing be a scapegoat for our lack of goals when good finishing is the most fundamental part of scoring goals? Then you then go on to scapegoat the manager instead. The reason we are where we are is because we don't score enough goals, not because we don't create enough chances. Just look at Thursday against Anderlecht; a better style of play or whatever you want implemented wouldn't have led to Pogba scoring that chance if he found himself in that situation again. Even if we create more chances, we'll still end up missing a majority of them so why not focus on becoming more efficient first? Unless you're expecting Mourinho to get on the pitch and score himself, I don't see how can this be blamed on him. Wanting improved management to increase the number of chances and thus improve the goal count would just be a way of compensating for our poor finishing, rather than dealing directly with the issue. If all those sitters we've missed were put away instead, would anyone be complaining? We create enough chances to wrap up games, the problem is that we don't make use of them.

Rather than trying to create more chances, leading to a situation where we're throwing enough mud at the wall that some of it eventually sticks, how about we make it easier for ourselves and sort out our finishing so we don't need to create 20 chances per game to win 1-0?

Sorry I don't quite understand your response. Are you'd saying the loopy balls don't count?<p>Also stats don't paint the whole picture. What decides a good chance and a bad chance. Do they take in to account the quality of ball in, wind conditions, rain, players pressing, angle of the shot, the difficulty of the execution. There are so many varables that stats don't account for.

I'm in agreement that the finishing hasn't been as good as it should be and Zlatan is the worst culprit in this. However the chances aren't what I'd say are high quality chances. Most of them are Zlatan scrapping or winning a ball in the air or out muscling someone. It's not like we open people up and it's one on one central in the middle of the goal.

That stat for me doesn't paint a true reflection of the actual problem and that is that Jose has the team set up defensively, our Fullbacks don't get forward to create space and support. Valencias crosses are from deep and more often than not a non threat.

Martial or the wingers in general look too scared of making a mistake so will often stay goalside of their fullbacks instead of risking a move breaking down to exploit space.

Zlatan doesn't run the channels and all of this adds up to very poor good attacking positions. Often we allow teams to get back set up so there is no space to cut through them then we just work it out wide and Valencia either hits the first defender or crosses from a position of no threat with a poor floated ball that Zlatan or Fellaini or at times Smalling have to try and get on or make something out of it.

Add in Martila and Rashford have only taken about 30 shots each with Zlatan at about 120 which is way more compared to players like Lukaku or Kane. Often because he takes on shots from non threatening areas.

For me it's not just poor finishing, there are a lot of things that add up to why we are where we are.

 

[Silas]

Sorry I don't quite understand your response. Are you'd saying the loopy balls don't count?<p>Also stats don't paint the whole picture. What decides a good chance and a bad chance. Do they take in to account the quality of ball in, wind conditions, rain, players pressing, angle of the shot, the difficulty of the execution. There are so many varables that stats don't account for.

I'm in agreement that the finishing hasn't been as good as it should be and Zlatan is the worst culprit in this. However the chances aren't what I'd say are high quality chances. Most of them are Zlatan scrapping or winning a ball in the air or out muscling someone. It's not like we open people up and it's one on one central in the middle of the goal.

That stat for me doesn't paint a true reflection of the actual problem and that is that Jose has the team set up defensively, our Fullbacks don't get forward to create space and support. Valencias crosses are from deep and more often than not a non threat.

Martial or the wingers in general look too scared of making a mistake so will often stay goalside of their fullbacks instead of risking a move breaking down to exploit space.

Zlatan doesn't run the channels and all of this adds up to very poor good attacking positions. Often we allow teams to get back set up so there is no space to cut through them then we just work it out wide and Valencia either hits the first defender or crosses from a position of no threat with a poor floated ball that Zlatan or Fellaini or at times Smalling have to try and get on or make something out of it.

Add in Martila and Rashford have only taken about 30 shots each with Zlatan at about 120 which is way more compared to players like Lukaku or Kane. Often because he takes on shots from non threatening areas.

For me it's not just poor finishing, there are a lot of things that add up to why we are where we are.

No, I was responding to your point that the chances created stat is inflated by 'floaty balls' that lead to nothing. I said that a huge majority of those wouldn't be included as they don't lead to a shot on goal, so they don't count. I'm not saying all loopy balls don't count, just the ones that lead to nothing, which I'm assuming are the ones you had in mind in your original reply. I'm by no means a religious believer of stats either. The only reason I'm using them here is because they provide us with an obvious trend and back up what's clearly visible on the pitch. I don't really care for the exact values they provide (which of course may be slightly off due to the variables you mentioned); what was telling to me was the fact that we were third in terms of chances created and third last in terms of chance conversion. It wouldn't matter to me if we were fourth and fourth last respectively or fifth and fifth last, what's important is the ridiculous contrast between the two which highlights the problem. Besides, all of those variables would affect every team's stats in what can be assumed to be an equal fashion, so although the actual values may be different, the trends and ranking would be very similar to what it is now. I agree that stats don't paint the full picture, what I disagree with is the notion that they paint a false picture. I'm simply using them to back up what myself and others are actually seeing on the pitch. Why do you think everyone wants Griezmann? It's because we need another reliable finisher in the squad.

Honestly, for you to say a majority of our chances are scraps in the box, it appears to me that you're just downplaying our performances for the sake of your argument. We create plenty of good chances in games, only for them to be wasted, leading to the crucification of several of our players in the matchday and player performance threads. How many teams regularly open other teams up "one-on-one central in the middle of the goal"? Not every team needs the perfect chance to score like us, that's my point. With better finishing, we won't need to wait for this perfect one-on-one and it would lead to us being more versatile in the way we play with increased confidence in front of goal.

If we set up so defensively, how have we created the third most chances in the league? I agree that our fullbacks should attack more, but that's down to the fact that our wingers cut in and roam around in central positions most of the time. This leads to Valencia and whoever's on the left having to also worry about counter attacks down the wings if they decide to bomb up, as with Mkhi/Mata/Martial etc as their 'support', they're responsible for the entirety of the flanks. However, this again isn't the reason we aren't putting away the chances that we get on a plate.

Reading the rest of your post, you'd think that we were actually third last in chance creation and third in converting them. You're assuming that with a few more chances our forwards are suddenly going to be placing them top corner no problem. Of course it's not just finishing that's an issue, what I'm saying is that finishing is the biggest issue. It doesn't seem like you really addressed my last post at all and just reiterated what you said originally.

 

[TheReligion]

No, I was responding to your point that the chances created stat is inflated by 'floaty balls' that lead to nothing. I said that a huge majority of those wouldn't be included as they don't lead to a shot on goal, so they don't count. I'm not saying all loopy balls don't count, just the ones that lead to nothing, which I'm assuming are the ones you had in mind in your original reply. I'm by no means a religious believer of stats either. The only reason I'm using them here is because they provide us with an obvious trend and back up what's clearly visible on the pitch. I don't really care for the exact values they provide (which of course may be slightly off due to the variables you mentioned); what was telling to me was the fact that we were third in terms of chances created and third last in terms of chance conversion. It wouldn't matter to me if we were fourth and fourth last respectively or fifth and fifth last, what's important is the ridiculous contrast between the two which highlights the problem. Besides, all of those variables would affect every team's stats in what can be assumed to be an equal fashion, so although the actual values may be different, the trends and ranking would be very similar to what it is now. I agree that stats don't paint the full picture, what I disagree with is the notion that they paint a false picture. I'm simply using them to back up what myself and others are actually seeing on the pitch. Why do you think everyone wants Griezmann? It's because we need another reliable finisher in the squad.

Honestly, for you to say a majority of our chances are scraps in the box, it appears to me that you're just downplaying our performances for the sake of your argument. We create plenty of good chances in games, only for them to be wasted, leading to the crucification of several of our players in the matchday and player performance threads. How many teams regularly open other teams up "one-on-one central in the middle of the goal"? Not every team needs the perfect chance to score like us, that's my point. With better finishing, we won't need to wait for this perfect one-on-one and it would lead to us being more versatile in the way we play with increased confidence in front of goal.

If we set up so defensively, how have we created the third most chances in the league? I agree that our fullbacks should attack more, but that's down to the fact that our wingers cut in and roam around in central positions most of the time. This leads to Valencia and whoever's on the left having to also worry about counter attacks down the wings if they decide to bomb up, as with Mkhi/Mata/Martial etc as their 'support', they're responsible for the entirety of the flanks. However, this again isn't the reason we aren't putting away the chances that we get on a plate.

Reading the rest of your post, you'd think that we were actually third last in chance creation and third in converting them. You're assuming that with a few more chances our forwards are suddenly going to be placing them top corner no problem. Of course it's not just finishing that's an issue, what I'm saying is that finishing is the biggest issue. It doesn't seem like you really addressed my last post at all and just reiterated what you said originally.

I wouldn't waste your time.

I'm beginning to wonder if some of this crowd actually watch our games at all given some of the tripe I see posted lately.

I'll accept oppo fans won't so naturally they will be wrong with alot of their comments about our play.

 

[Dante]

Our forwards are absolutely fecking terrible at getting in front of their man in the box. That includes everyone, including Zlatan.

The chances we create, the saves that opposition goalkeepers make and the blocks that opposition defenders put in are mostly straightforward because of how predictable the movement is. The stats don't show how 'uncreative' our creativity actually is.

It's no coincidence that otherwise average goalkeepers look world class against us.

I've no idea if the problem is to do with the coaching or the players. But something has to change.

Martial did a lot better last season playing off Rooney in a false 9 role. Ibrahimovic is a totem for the attack but I don't think his movement is a good fit for the natural style of play of our widemen. Changing our main striker or telling him to take up deeper positions to drag away defenders would be a decent start. But I don't think that's a coaching issue. It's simply how Mourinho likes to play.

If the attackers are bad at finding space, you play a striker that's good at making it for them. Rooney, for all his faults, was amongst the best at that. I reckon Ibrahimovic could do it as well, but he's not being asked to.

 

[Silas]

I wouldn't waste your time.

I'm beginning to wonder if some of this crowd actually watch our games at all given some of the tripe I see posted lately.

I'll accept oppo fans won't so naturally they will be wrong with alot of their comments about our play.

Exactly. Once some adopt a certain view, it becomes the truth regardless of how much revisionism is needed for it to seem valid.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Exactly. Once some adopt a certain view, it becomes the truth regardless of how much revisionism is needed for it to seem valid.

Same could be said for you guys tho. Like I don't agree with the idea you're painting that we have created good or wasted as many good chances as you paint us as having.

No, I was responding to your point that the chances created stat is inflated by 'floaty balls' that lead to nothing. I said that a huge majority of those wouldn't be included as they don't lead to a shot on goal, so they don't count. I'm not saying all loopy balls don't count, just the ones that lead to nothing, which I'm assuming are the ones you had in mind in your original reply. I'm by no means a religious believer of stats either. The only reason I'm using them here is because they provide us with an obvious trend and back up what's clearly visible on the pitch. I don't really care for the exact values they provide (which of course may be slightly off due to the variables you mentioned); what was telling to me was the fact that we were third in terms of chances created and third last in terms of chance conversion. It wouldn't matter to me if we were fourth and fourth last respectively or fifth and fifth last, what's important is the ridiculous contrast between the two which highlights the problem. Besides, all of those variables would affect every team's stats in what can be assumed to be an equal fashion, so although the actual values may be different, the trends and ranking would be very similar to what it is now. I agree that stats don't paint the full picture, what I disagree with is the notion that they paint a false picture. I'm simply using them to back up what myself and others are actually seeing on the pitch. Why do you think everyone wants Griezmann? It's because we need another reliable finisher in the squad.

Honestly, for you to say a majority of our chances are scraps in the box, it appears to me that you're just downplaying our performances for the sake of your argument. We create plenty of good chances in games, only for them to be wasted, leading to the crucification of several of our players in the matchday and player performance threads. How many teams regularly open other teams up "one-on-one central in the middle of the goal"? Not every team needs the perfect chance to score like us, that's my point. With better finishing, we won't need to wait for this perfect one-on-one and it would lead to us being more versatile in the way we play with increased confidence in front of goal.

If we set up so defensively, how have we created the third most chances in the league? I agree that our fullbacks should attack more, but that's down to the fact that our wingers cut in and roam around in central positions most of the time. This leads to Valencia and whoever's on the left having to also worry about counter attacks down the wings if they decide to bomb up, as with Mkhi/Mata/Martial etc as their 'support', they're responsible for the entirety of the flanks. However, this again isn't the reason we aren't putting away the chances that we get on a plate.

Reading the rest of your post, you'd think that we were actually third last in chance creation and third in converting them. You're assuming that with a few more chances our forwards are suddenly going to be placing them top corner no problem. Of course it's not just finishing that's an issue, what I'm saying is that finishing is the biggest issue. It doesn't seem like you really addressed my last post at all and just reiterated what you said originally.

So for me that contrast between how much we create and our 3rd last in finishing doesn't fit as my eyes tell me we struggle to create decent opportunities. And that the chance creation thing everyone keeps bringing up leads people to believe we are better than we are and everything is rosey as it's just about getting better strikers. Or as you said Griezmann. Griezmann won't magically fix the problem and I find that a really naive take on our situation. Is Griezmann a better finisher than Zlatan? If you were to bet on who would finish the most chances I bet most would go with Zlatan.

I've said repeatedly in this convo the finishing hasn't been good enough but I'm also aware the chances created the majority of them haven't been great chances I'd struggle to even say they are half chances. This seems to be where we differ in opinion and why I believe that people using this chance creation stat are somewhat lying to themselves or using it like a night light to tell themselves everything is going to be fine.

You're entitled to your opinion it's not one I share and I know quite a few that don't share your opinion either. But for me those stats you put up are a false truth.

That whole thing about the fullbacks I don't even want to get into as I can already tell it's a pointless discussion that will lead us nowhere. But again I'd say we obviously view football and how it's played very differently.

Can I ask your opinion on Jose? Was he your first and only choice as manager?

 

[Silas]

Same could be said for you guys tho. Like I don't agree with the idea you're painting that we have created good or wasted as many good chances as you paint us as having.




So for me that contrast between how much we create and our 3rd last in finishing doesn't fit as my eyes tell me we struggle to create decent opportunities. And that the chance creation thing everyone keeps bringing up leads people to believe we are better than we are and everything is rosey as it's just about getting better strikers. Or as you said Griezmann. Griezmann won't magically fix the problem and I find that a really naive take on our situation. Is Griezmann a better finisher than Zlatan? If you were to bet on who would finish the most chances I bet most would go with Zlatan.

I've said repeatedly in this convo the finishing hasn't been good enough but I'm also aware the chances created the majority of them haven't been great chances I'd struggle to even say they are half chances. This seems to be where we differ in opinion and why I believe that people using this chance creation stat are somewhat lying to themselves or using it like a night light to tell themselves everything is going to be fine.

You're entitled to your opinion it's not one I share and I know quite a few that don't share your opinion either. But for me those stats you put up are a false truth.

That whole thing about the fullbacks I don't even want to get into as I can already tell it's a pointless discussion that will lead us nowhere. But again I'd say we obviously view football and how it's played very differently.

Can I ask your opinion on Jose? Was he your first and only choice as manager?

I'd be open to a change of view if your argument was solid, but as of now, you're just refuting the facts and saying a majority of our chances are half chances, which isn't true and is a subjective term anyway.

Think about how many times just Pogba has hit the post. If we're supposedly awful at creating chances, how is he even finding himself in these situations where he can have attempts on goal? Just because we miss, doesn't make it a half chance. Anyway I've said over and over that a different style of play won't make our players any more capable of placing the ball in the net. It's not naive if you recognise that the problem we have is that there's a lack of top-drawer finishers in the team. Considering the number of sitters Zlatan's missed and the amount of stick he's gotten over the season, I doubt many would be as confident in Zlatan coming out on top as you are. There's a reason Antoine was voted third best player in the world; movement, interplay and finishing. Besides, I'm fairly sure Mou intends to use them together, so who the better finisher is isn't relevant.

I'll say the same to you, just it also seems Mourinho doesn't share your opinion either if he's the one targeting Griezmann and not employing an attacking coach.

Not my only choice, no, but he was my first choice. Why?

 

[dichinero]

Great post.

Can't argue with your critique of Mourinho. I'm not sure why some are so outraged by it.

Because it's José and he is apparently immune to criticism

 

[HeckneyNoodo]

He should bring in a new bus driver. The old one must be pretty worn down from avoiding all the players Mourinho has tried to throw under the bus.

No, this time we need a M1A2 TUSK or Merkava IV battle tank.

 

[Raees]

Are we second for shots on target statistics?

 

[Red71]

I think certain people read what Skipper wrote and it resonantes with them because they believe that Jose is a defensive coach so they choose to believe his/her version of events at CFC.

I don't know what constitutes a good chance versus a great chance but it is a fact that we are one of the best in the league at creating chances. That isn't as a result of just being defensive. Some of these "only good" chances would be buried by a confident, clinical striker playing for one of our rivals, or an Ole or a Rudd. There was a loopy cross into the box in the Shitty game yesterday between two defenders and Aguero won it and scored. Half a chance! Costa is the same. See some of his scrappy goals this year.

There's no excuse in my mind for us to continue missing our chances, good or great. We shouldn't be giving goalies the chance to be man of the match every time. We should be good enough to hit the corners or go high with control. What happened to wanting to be the best. Staying out on the training pitch every day to practice striking drills. Strikers and midfielders HAVE to own this problem so I call BS on blaming this on the manager. Practice, practice, practice!!!

Also, genuine question re Mourinho being best on the break so not knowing how to unlock packed defences and create chances....how did he do it at Madrid? I can't believe many teams didn't park the bus against his Madrid side and yet he was setting scoring records. This can't just be down to Ronaldo...can it?

 

[Dante]

He changed things significantly today. We played a fluid front 3 rather than a targetman as the focal point. It's got to be the way we play from here on out.

Right now, the coaching is less important than the tactics, imo.

 

[#07]

Chelsea didn't have a shot on target today, anyone think that Conte needs an attacking coach?

To hear the football Einsteins on here Conte's a genius, coaches all aspects of the game including attack and Mou is a dinosaur. Yet by shackling their best individuals we stopped them completely.

Here's a thought FM legends: all teams rely on talented individuals in attack. When they are taken out of the game or, as ours have this season mostly, miss easy chances you drop points.

 

[TheReligion]

Chelsea didn't have a shot on target today, anyone think that Conte needs an attacking coach?

To hear the football Einsteins on here Conte's a genius, coaches all aspects of the game including attack and Mou is a dinosaur. Yet by shackling their best individuals we stopped them completely.

Here's a thought FM legends: all teams rely on talented individuals in attack. When they are taken out of the game or, as ours have this season mostly, miss easy chances you drop points.

Please start this thread in the FF

 

[Escobar]

He changed things significantly today. We played a fluid front 3 rather than a targetman as the focal point. It's got to be the way we play from here on out.

Right now, the coaching is less important than the tactics, imo.

Shame we didn't show that kind of movement and fluidity in most games this season

 

[#07]

Please start this thread in the FF

 

[TheReligion]

I'm interested on what @skipp

Should Conte bring in a new attacking coach?

You got to!

 

[Minimalist]

I couldn't watch due to a flight. Seen the goals though now. Can anyone sum up what changed today?

 

[duffer]

I couldn't watch due to a flight. Seen the goals though now. Can anyone sum up what changed today?

You got an outrageous hand-ball decision not given in your favour and then a ridiculous deflection.

Kidding.

 

[Womp]

I couldn't watch due to a flight. Seen the goals though now. Can anyone sum up what changed today?

Players busting their bollocks for Jose and Jose doing what he does best, picking players to nullify opponents.