Exactly. The long post by Chelsea fan was massive exaggeration but since it's very long post with good word play, somehow people can't wait to nod in agreement with it. Hazard spent lot of time marking the full back but somehow won PFA player of the year. Some of the posts from Chelsea fans are just to exaggerate the short comings of Jose and to hype Conte beyond anything. Manager who did feck all in Europe.
Should Mourinho bring in a new 'attacking coach'
- Thread starter Raees
- Start date
Yeah it's all bollocks.
I really do wish the doom mongers and preaching oppo fans would wind it in somewhat and at least give the man a chance. He's been here less than a year.
I wonder if our friends at Blue Moon are giving Pep such a hard time given he's had a very similar season to Jose over the same period of time (minus a trophy of course)
The way JM is spoke about you'd think he'd not won a title for 20 years with him as outdated as LvG...
Conte has had it easy this season.
Once they are not winning, they will disappear like they did last season. It's always the case isn't it. Even at the start of the season City fans couldn't wait to login and tell us how great they are and how clueless ManUtd as a club is, now we see one or 2 city fans posting from time to time.
Yeah it's not like he won the title just 2 seasons ago. For an outdated, past it manager that's a good record.
No one seems to remember Sir Alex saying stick by the manager. Yes the club have moved on but the sentiment still exists.
You wonder if some would be happier for United to become a complete circus long term as the fan base seemingly has no patience or brain between it's ears these days.
You wonder if some would be happier for United to become a complete circus long term as the fan base seemingly has no patience or brain between it's ears these days.
He is but Mourinho, by luck and timing, has managed to get something Conte wants (multiple European trophies with different teams).
By luck and timing you mean talent and knowing how to win?
There's nothing called " a manager who can't attack " or " a manager who's only dependent on having super players in attack to finish on their own " that's - sorry - a very naive and impossible . A coach can't win all these trophies only based on defending and grinding a goal . Where were these claims when we were playing a great attacking football and missing thousands of chances against stoke and burnely in the first half of the season with exactly the same players ??
Can anyone explain to me " the attacking philosophy " of each of the top managers in the world ? Is Klopp only dependent on high pressing only ? or is Pep dependent on short passes only ? what's the attacking pattern of Anchelloti's teams ? to counter attack only or what ??
Pep himself said previously that he let his players do their job in the final third and trusted them their because this area you can't plan anything for them , here's the source :
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/thierry-henry-reveals-pep-guardiolas-7077518
A quote from Henry :
And does that means Pep is highly dependent on the quality of his players as Jose ( if we supposed the people claims are true ) or what ??
Does that make Pep a bad manager or what ??
I'm just astonished anyone can think that a manager has no " tactics " or " has no attacking philosophy " or something like that . The manager plays his role , but the players , surprise , surprise , have their role , too in having a creativity and being able to finish their chances .
No manager in the world will move the players in the attacking third like he's playing chess , treating them as pawns whom he moves as he pleased . He'll get hammered for this due to " restricting his players' freedom and preventing them from showing their skills " as what LVG has always been hammered for. Any manager must give his players a freedom in attacking third to have any creativity in building up . That doesn't mean he got no "attacking philosophy". That's nonsense.
Can anyone explain to me " the attacking philosophy " of each of the top managers in the world ? Is Klopp only dependent on high pressing only ? or is Pep dependent on short passes only ? what's the attacking pattern of Anchelloti's teams ? to counter attack only or what ??
Pep himself said previously that he let his players do their job in the final third and trusted them their because this area you can't plan anything for them , here's the source :
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/thierry-henry-reveals-pep-guardiolas-7077518
A quote from Henry :
Does that means Pep has no attacking philosophy because he doesn't plan the players in the final third or what ??
And does that means Pep is highly dependent on the quality of his players as Jose ( if we supposed the people claims are true ) or what ??
Does that make Pep a bad manager or what ??
I'm just astonished anyone can think that a manager has no " tactics " or " has no attacking philosophy " or something like that . The manager plays his role , but the players , surprise , surprise , have their role , too in having a creativity and being able to finish their chances .
No manager in the world will move the players in the attacking third like he's playing chess , treating them as pawns whom he moves as he pleased . He'll get hammered for this due to " restricting his players' freedom and preventing them from showing their skills " as what LVG has always been hammered for. Any manager must give his players a freedom in attacking third to have any creativity in building up . That doesn't mean he got no "attacking philosophy". That's nonsense.
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I have never seen a manager in my life who won a treble by luck and good timing ( good timing you mean facing one of the best teams in the history of football , Pep's Barca , right ? ).
By this logic I can say any trophy in the world has been won by luck if we counted a treble " luck and good timing " .
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Pep's team not doing well, excuses are he needs high quality players.
Jose's team not doing well, people are like yeah he is a check book manager and can only do well with good attacking players.
Jose's team not doing well, people are like yeah he is a check book manager and can only do well with good attacking players.
Can anyone explain to me how an attacking coach will make it any more likely our players will start scoring one on ones. I'm sure they train to shoot. I've seen them do it pre-match. What will an attacking coach add? More creative ways to miss from inside the area..? If anything they need a sports psychologist to help them not bottle easy chances.
I think Bergkamp is 4 and half star rated Attacking coach on FM, maybe this will help.
Exactly.
People are saying Jose is dependent on having super attacking players to get results and have no attacking philosophy . I'm just eager to see who is the top manager in the world who " won trophies " constantly with average players in the attack
Pep got Messi , Eto' ( later David villa ) and Henry , then Robben , Ribery , Lewa . Anchelloti got Ronaldo , Benzema and Bale and then got the attacking players Pep had at Beyern . Even Conte had Hazard and Costa . Allegri got Dybala and Higuain .
But Jose is the only manager who should win by having average players in the attack to prove he's top class manager .
Completely biased opinion .
Actually I think Pep is a bit overrated too. He did a great job with Barcelona, but dont tell me that his timing for that job was not incredibly lucky? He did a great job with a few players and Barca and Pep was a match made in heaven. But Messi would have been the best player in the world even without Guardiola. Xavi and Iniesta would have been brilliant without him too. Guardiola took charge of Barcelona the same summer Spain won the EC.
Then he took charge of Bayern who was the best team in the world at that point...
Luck and timing always comes into play. For some I feel that their ability and flexibility ensure that they will succeed at some point anyway. Ferguson and Conte is two examples. (Pochettino will succeed at one point too.)
For Mourinho and Pep, I think there timing and club choices have been very crucial to their standing today. What would history look like if Liverpool signed Mourinho and Chelsea Benitez in 2004?
He is the definitely our most successful manager and I was not happy when he left, but the club is moving on well and there are several ways things are different, we are moving forward without Jose finally. Jose isn't the only good coach in the world you know? I didn't have to use Conte as an example per se, I could've used Pep, or even Klopp who doesn't have the talent Mourinho possesses. I just chose Conte as its obviously more relatable than those two, with Jose being a CFC legend and Antonio the current manager.
Nothing in my post disrespects anything Mourinho has done at CFC, and specifically addresses that we looked like we were on the right track before a few bad results in the second half of the season where our performances started dropping, which carried on into last year where we had a disastrous season. You can choose to ignore that and think that I am trying to perhaps 'false dare' but I'm genuinely just trying to offer some insight from a CFC fan's perspective. If you genuinely think I'm just here because I want to slate Jose, then you're massively mistaken. I just wanted to join an active football community and RedCafe offers that very well. I like reading the perspectives from different sort of individuals, on many different things when it comes to football. Some views I might not hear/read on a Chelsea forum for example.
Chelsea fans are well aware of that, and Jose Mourinho is a top coach, I'm not saying otherwise. In the same post I referred to his achievements as a manager before as a nod to saying that Conte's way of managing isn't the only way. Jose is a master when it comes to knockout competitions because he is very good at setting up a side defensively and psyching his players up for the big ocassion, it's his bread and butter as a manager. That's not what's being discussed here though. I'm not coming on here to scream Conte is better than Mourinho. I'm genuinely just offering you an insight on this same debate many Chelsea fans had under Mourinho. I'm not trying turn this into a Conte vs. Jose thing.
You have comments from the player himself stating stuff like how defensive he had to play under Jose, why would I make that up? There's no exaggeration, I tried to keep bias out of it. Jose is much better than Conte in Europe, and Conte has a lot to prove when it comes to that next season, alongside someone like Hazard, but that's not what we're debating here are we? Hope you can take your blinkers off now and appreciate I wasn't just trying to make the post to discredit anything Jose has done at CFC. The man is a legend, but the man has his faults, just like any other human being.
This is something that has been prevelant in Mourinho's career before. It's not anything I'm just making up. Chelsea were called "boring" by many, including United fans, in his first era here. I would love to know what I've said that has disrespected Jose in anyway. Some Chelsea fans might've done so, but don't automatically lump me into that. Essentially what you are saying is that Jose cannot be spoken by anyone in any sort of light but positive, even not by Chelsea fans who have seen his work up close much better than some, which is frankly quite ridiculous. It's like saying United fans found no fault whatsoever with Sir Fergie, which we know isn't true.
I would actually love to hear your thoughts on why United are struggling when it comes to going forward with the ball, because all I've seen you do here is berate anyone who has questions about it as some sort of idiot who's wrong, which I don't think is fair. From an outside perspective, the OP definitely has some valid points, alongside what some others have said. It's the same things some CFC fans were saying about him, so honestly, there is credence in what they are saying. You can't just dismiss it if different people from different environments are claiming similar things.
What United are struggling with right now is getting the ball into the final third in good positions, and that's where a manager's attacking philosophy comes into play. Of course, you can't control exactly how players play on the pitch, but a manager sets up his attacking system to put his best attacking players in areas where they can then do damage. That's what your attacking philosophy is about. There's many different ways to go about this, but that's could be a whole new topic on it's own to be honest.
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Doesn't this mean that Jose trusts his team's instincts and wants them to be creative? Which is exactly Van Gaal was criticized.
His team(Madrid & Chelsea) have held records for most goals scored in the league ever so he must be doing something right. I trust Jose to get it right with the coming summer transfer window.
His team(Madrid & Chelsea) have held records for most goals scored in the league ever so he must be doing something right. I trust Jose to get it right with the coming summer transfer window.
You didn't make up but you exaggerated it. Hazard had to work defensively but the way you make it sound was as if he was camped in the defensive third makring the full back who makes over lapping runs.
You made some good points but lot of it was exaggerated for some reasons.
Your point:
How many times did this happen when he was at Chelsea first time, at Inter, At Madrid? None. So you are taking one off thing and making it sound like Jose sells talented players to sign Jose type players which is wrong.
If that's true , we simply wouldn't have created all these chances each game. From where all these chances came if we couldn't get players in good position ??
With younger players they need guidance on how to create patterns of play and how to stretch oppenents and build combinations. They might need guidance how to improve certain technical attributes, right positions to take up in the right moments etc even experienced players will need to be constantly reminded what positions they should take up in order to get the best out of the collective as just letting them attack of the cuff will not always work out and end of the day all these players will be better off with having lots of pictures in their head of what to do in certain situations. Van Gaal took it too far but completely undercooking players in this way is not good enough either.
In a way it is very much like Chess but you have to be aware it is human pieces you're dealing with in a highly frenetic game where there will always be pieces moving out of position and you don't have full control over them. That said if you can exert some element of control and give the players the best possible information on how to dissect the game themselves on the pitch in real time, they'll be better off for it.
As for Pep just leaving his player to it, not true. He moved Messi to false 9 because he thought deeply on how best to structure his attack and those players at le masla are taught an awful lot about positional play going forward hence Barca at their best look the most structured attacking side in world football over the past 10 years but obviously you trust the intelligence of the players to also execute their own ideas with the pictures you've given them.
Outstanding post.
The question is how did you know they're not getting any instructions , though ?
I didn't say manager should give " full freedom " to the players , nor should they " control them completely as in chess " . Any manager would have a game plan in the attack and giving instructions to them about the duties theirs position , but at the same time he needs to give them a sort of freedom in front third to have a creativity in the play or we'll have too predicted pattern of attack which can be easily shut down . It's sort of both , but saying any manager doesn't have an attacking philosophy as I read here multiple times is just .... Wrong .
Another thing is how many young players are playing in our attack ? only 2 , Martial and Rashfrod . Lingard is 24 years he's no longer a kid , Mata 28 , Mikhi 28 , Zlatan 35 , Pogba 24 ( and have a massive experience playing in the finals of both Euro and CL ) . Our attacking options are not really that inexperienced if you asked me .
Like it.The quote was from Henry who played under him , and sure he knew how Pep organizes his team better than us.
It's not about age but footballing maturity. Pogba plays like a kid in all honesty and Lingard is very inexperienced. Mkhi is adapting to a new league and playing philosophy. Dortmund to a more pragmatic United side is a big change.
Only Mata and Zlatan are what I'd say are mature in terms of being equipped to make the decisions Jose expects in the final third. Everyone else needs guidance.
You're taking the quote out of context. Pep did let them do what they wanted but he coached them on patterns of play and most of the team had been taught the Barcelona way. Those players had plenty of pictures in their head and had high level football intelligence to be trusted to execute the right moves when they needed to.
Pogba got a massive experience already in this age so when he plays bad he got no excuses but himself . He won league titles . He played a CL final . He's a starter in one of the best national teams in the world currently . He played a Euro . He got an experience some players older than him didn't even get it.
This is Lingard second season as a main player in the team and at 24 years he won't develop more than what he's currently .He's not a kid still learning anymore. For Mikhi adapting has no relation for him being a very experienced player and supposed to be at the age of his peak. A player at the age of 28 years doesn't need a coach to teach him to control the ball .
I didn't say he learnt them nothing at all . I said the manager got his role , and the players got their role ,too .There's a certain limit at which the manager's role stop and players need to do their own work . When we're one of the most teams in the league missing chances then talking about the team's attack not clicking due to the manager doesn't seem very logical . If we got problem getting players in good position to score how do we create all these chances ? It doesn't connect with the idea of the manager having no " attacking philosophy " . We can blame the manager if the team is struggling to create chances . In the final third and in front of the goal it's time of the players to step up and do their work .
Some people say we got problems breaking the bus of other players , but even against teams who defending against us we always create sitters ( except the west brom game for obvious reasons : key players being absent ) , so it's not the problem in how breaking the parked bus but in how to score our chances. Struggling against defending teams = not being able to create chances against them , not creating and missing .
And if you ask me , I don't think any top class manager will tell a player how to score from 1vs1 situations.
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Skip my old mate. I appreciate your in depth posts but United aren't struggling getting the ball into good attacking positions. They are struggling to finish.
Thank you for directly pointing out what you were having an issue with. I'll still stand by that point to be honest. Maybe I should've said younger talents instead. Honestly, that's what it sometimes felt like when he was at CFC, specifally in his second stint. I'll give you another example - his persistence in playing Oscar. He was always so-so for CFC, and in my opinion is more of a Jose player than let's say Mata or KDB, who he both let go to allow Oscar to flourish, which obviously turned out to be a mistake. Oscar could have 4/5 average or below par games in a row and would never get dropped, whereas someone like KDB or even Mata would have the smallest opportunity to play, and if they didn't do well enough in these limited minutes, they'd get even more reduced game time. I brought it up because there seems to be a similar theme developing here at United with some of your younger talents, and even more established players like Mkhi.
In his first stint at CFC the side was perfectly made for him, and he added guys like Essien and Drogba to further compliment the system he was trying to achieve. He helped create one of the most effective teams in PL history, without a shadow of a doubt. His impact on the PL was huge. But the team was catered to him very well. The profiles of the players he had, catered to how he likes to set up his system going forward. Same at Real and Inter. The overriding theme these three teams share is that they were all ruthless counter attacking teams. My point is, that we can't really compare those teams because Jose is trying something quite different now, and he has been since his second time at CFC; he wants his team to be more effective in possession with the ball, but seems to be struggling to get this together consistently enough. It's why he signed players like Pogba and Zlatan, players who can be very effective in this sort of system. Like I said in my initial post - we'll know for sure what plans he'll have after the next transfer window - but my overarching point is that even at this stage, it's very unclear as to what direction United are going to go.
Unfortunately this is my last post for today, but I'll reply to you and others when I can tomorrow.
I disagree with this to be honest. The shots that I see United create don't come in top quality positions. Most of the goals United create come from crosses. I might be wrong though - I've only seen United play about 15 times this season. But from what I can make out, there are lots of shots that aren't clear cut chances, more like half chances. I'll try and find some stats answers visuals tomorrow to back up my perception on this - to see if it is indeed true.
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This.
This entire thread is based on a mistaken idea, Manchester United is not struggling to create chances. Manchester United is, for no reason, missing easy chances.
The chance Pogba hits right at the goalie against Anderlecht. The volley he skies against Sunderland. The through ball Zlatan hesitates over against Sunderland. The one v one against Everton that Zlatan hesitates over, taking a touch so Williams can get across him. Herrera hitting the crossbar from Blind's rebounded free kick. The cross hitting Fellaini and...
Just from our recent games I can name chance after chance, inside the area, relatively straightforward for top level players that ours missed.
No amount of coaching is going to stop a player getting deer in headlights syndrome and hitting it straight at the keeper.
This is a stupid thread. It builds somekind of stupid myth that Mourinho doesn't know how to attack. We've created plenty of chances this season.
Did he use an attacking attacking coach to win all the trophies he's win previously or is this some sort of caf genius idea nobody has ever thought of?
Again you are making the same mistake. You are basing one off incident and making it a big issue out of it.
Mata was among the top 2-3 players when it comes to most mins played for ManUtd. So Mata is playing a lot for Jose.
Again young player myth. Tell me how many players did Conte develop at Juventus and Chelsea? Apart from Pogba it's none. Also you are blaming Jose for letting go young players and then blaming him for playing Young Oscar ahead of Mata.
You are completely wrong with your observation about similar theme developing at United. He criticized few players and they all responded well. Few ManUtd fans and other fans tried to make the issue out of nothing and failed completely.
We really need to stop making so many excuses for our attacking players.
Martial is the one who's really suffering from Jose's style and management! I really feel for the boy! I'd not blame him if he put in a transfer request at the end of the season! He's suffering from the Eden Hazard's syndrome from last season. You can see that he's not enjoying his game!
Too many attacking players are under performing; this can't be solely on the players! Something is going wrong as most of them were the best at their position last season!
Currently watching Spurs with envy.
How can Jose and some of our players sleep at night, on paper, we are miles better than Spurs, but feck me if they don't attack with intent.
How can Jose and some of our players sleep at night, on paper, we are miles better than Spurs, but feck me if they don't attack with intent.
Which paper? That's rather an arrogant attitude I think. If you had a combined Utd/Spurs XI how many Utd players would get in it, based on this seasons form? De Gea, Herrera, Ibra ahead of Kane?
At the beginning of the season, our squad was held as at top 3 if not 2.
I was clearly speaking irrespective of form.
how am I being 'arrogant' - my first sentence was 'Currently watching Spurs with envy' - wind your neck in.