Yup, he's great.
Is Mou still 'The Special One' for you all?
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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Klopp? Would you ever give it a rest ffs.
With regards to his "likely implosion in 2017-18".
I think people who deny this phenomenon are sticking their heads in the sand. He is clearly an abrasive figure and it has clearly caused problems on occasion in his career.
But it is going too far to see it as an inevitability, the question is how likely is likely? He left Porto and Inter, as far as I understand it, on the best of terms. Real is a unique case so I dont see his problems there as much of an indictment. Abramovich the first time was too trigger happy IMO. The only real black mark on his record is what happened at Chelsea the second time around, and that is a situation I just dont understand well enough to analyse.
So im hopeful things can pan out better for him at Manchester United. He has moved around a lot in his career, but that has often been to manage bigger clubs - leaving Porto for Chelsea and leaving Inter for Real. He is unlikely to leave us because he wants another job, so its down to whether there will be an implosion. We have a history of operating under an authoritarian figure-leader. Its something the club is quite comfortable with, I think Woodward and the fans will support him longer than most - longer than Abramovich did the first time, for example.
So I acknowledge it as a risk, but dont see it as a likelihood.
I think people who deny this phenomenon are sticking their heads in the sand. He is clearly an abrasive figure and it has clearly caused problems on occasion in his career.
But it is going too far to see it as an inevitability, the question is how likely is likely? He left Porto and Inter, as far as I understand it, on the best of terms. Real is a unique case so I dont see his problems there as much of an indictment. Abramovich the first time was too trigger happy IMO. The only real black mark on his record is what happened at Chelsea the second time around, and that is a situation I just dont understand well enough to analyse.
So im hopeful things can pan out better for him at Manchester United. He has moved around a lot in his career, but that has often been to manage bigger clubs - leaving Porto for Chelsea and leaving Inter for Real. He is unlikely to leave us because he wants another job, so its down to whether there will be an implosion. We have a history of operating under an authoritarian figure-leader. Its something the club is quite comfortable with, I think Woodward and the fans will support him longer than most - longer than Abramovich did the first time, for example.
So I acknowledge it as a risk, but dont see it as a likelihood.
Never been one for the 'special one' shit.
He's a great manager and I'm landed he's with us.
He's a great manager and I'm landed he's with us.
Isn't the first bold part contradicts the second one ? If denying him causing problems everywhere putting head in sand and his implosion is inevitable then how is Chelsea second period the only black point in his career ? If he holds responsibility for only one problem in his career then denying his " implosion phenomena " isn't really a mistake.
Also why concentrating on something in the future which may not even happen ? Let's concentrate on the present first. I find it strange to talk about how his end will be here while we are still in his first season in charge !
Fair point on the second bit. But Ill skip past that and respond to the first: also fair point, but something happened at Chelsea, and there is no point in denying it, or trying to separate it from his style of management. I wouldnt bring it up at all except that does seem to be echoing in the present: I do worry when I see him calling for players to hurry back from injury, or questioning players in public. I have posted about this elsewhere, most recently yesterday, so I wont go on about it too long but Ill just say while I stop short of outright condemning it - I think he knows more about managing footballers than I do - it does make me uncomfortable, and so I do start to worry a bit that his style I was talking about above could be sowing the seeds for this implosion people worry about.
The feck it is. That's just a lazy lazy myth.
Porto: He had won the treble it was a logical progression to go on to bigger things
Chelsea: It was in his fourth season, and need I say anything else than "Roman"?
Inter: He had won the Treble and it was logical to go on to a bigger challenge
Real: How many managers/coaches at Real have laster longer than three years during the last two decades?
Chelsea: I'll give you this one. Although it is impossible to know what was the real deal in that situation.
There's no denying he's responsible for the problem happened at Chelsea because of his problems with Eva that lead to the players falling with him and caused the riot happened, but if it's the only one black spot in his career then we can't talk about his implosion as an inevitable. That's my point. If it's inevitable then it would have happened in his every job but it didn't.
Regarding him criticizing players in public. I think we're exaggerating it IMO. It wasn't the cause of what happened at Madrid and Chelsea. At Madrid it was his problem with Iker that lead to dressing room got divided between him and Iker, and in Chelsea it was due to his problem with Eva. Criticizing his players at Chelsea came after they fall with him due to Eva's problem, not the opposite.
Also if the players are taking the criticism in a positive manner and return to perform then we souldn't care so much. He criticized Shaw, the kid went to talk with him and his mentality is now changing to be better, same happened for Mikhi and is happening with Martial. Samlling was criticized then returned normally to the starting line-up. Players are taking the criticism positively so we as fans shouldn't concentrate much on it. Take note that he's criticizing players that are mainly in doubt of staying in the club. He wants to challenge them to revive themselves. If they didn't they will be the ones leaving, not him.
I'm not worried about the future. We better concentrate at the present now.
This, don't know why people don't seem to think before regurgitating whatever myths they heard or read somewhere. Its as if all the other people that coached Madrid and Chelsea where treated to a nice send off and not sacked as well
Yeah, exactly. Ancelotti got the sack one year after winning La Decima ffs
I mean, Mourinho is regarded as a God at Porto, Inter and was at Chelsea too before he signed for us. So yeah.
My only regret is for whatever reason Fergie opted for Moyes rather than Mou.
I would argue that Jose get's more out of his squad(s) than any other manager, by virtue of his man-management as well as his tactical know-how. His early success at Porto is a perfect example of that and what he's done with United's decimated squad of late is another!
I just know he would have done so much more with what Sir Alex left behind than the inexperienced & ineffective Moyes ever could and that he would have attracted far more talent after SAF left than Moyes would in three lifetimes.
So yup, still happy!
I would argue that Jose get's more out of his squad(s) than any other manager, by virtue of his man-management as well as his tactical know-how. His early success at Porto is a perfect example of that and what he's done with United's decimated squad of late is another!
I just know he would have done so much more with what Sir Alex left behind than the inexperienced & ineffective Moyes ever could and that he would have attracted far more talent after SAF left than Moyes would in three lifetimes.
So yup, still happy!
Every thing you said is true, but Lvg have built better stronger foundations for the future than mourinho would have this point can not be neglected. I dont think Rashford's lingard's fosumensah's martial's would have broken through or came here if mourinho was incharge, and Goes without saying that welbeck's rafael's and di maria's and hernandez's would still be here and performing with mourinho.
I doubt LVG would have given Rashford the nod anytime throughout the season if it wasn't for us having literally no other striker available. In regards to Martial, LVG himself admitted was a huge surprise to him. I think LVG's influence on this club is over exaggerated.Every thing you said is true, but Lvg have built better stronger foundations for the future than mourinho would have this point can not be neglected. I dont think Rashford's lingard's fosumensah's martial's would have broken through or came here if mourinho was incharge, and Goes without saying that welbeck's rafael's and di maria's and hernandez's would still be here and performing with mourinho.
He put us through two years of dire football and invested nearly 200 million into mostly dire players.
At least he has the balls to play youth players in their own positions when those show up though mostly. Which he has done all his career. So it is not a one time thing.
90% of other coaches, famous or not, successful or not would not do it.
He was not a good manager for us in his 2 years with us. Does not exactly mean we can't give him some credit when he did decent things.
I'm not saying he didn't though, just stating why I think it panned out the way it did. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking Rashford was going to suddenly get a chance in the business end of the season if we didn't have so many injuries. I'm glad it happened the way it did but I don't see it happening. Rashford for example is getting many chances under Jose this season and he loves him, so I wouldn't assume he wouldn't be in and around the team if LVG didn't come in. Maybe he wouldn't have, but Jose takes a liking to youth who fight for him as has been shown in the past with Oscar etc. We have seen from this season that Rashford is fighting for Jose, so who knows.
I just don't buy it. Had we hired Jose straight after SAF or even after Moyes, I would bet we'd be in a much better position currently than we are.
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The posession based dominance and control of the opposition litrally nullifing them to no shots and unbeaten streak is also the influence of lvg. Mourinho tried to play reactive way earlier on and it failed on its face.
So a manager who in his career has been known for incredible defensive structure, has LVG to thank for our defensive success? The same defensive genius who was the mastermind behind great performances such as the 4-0 loss to Mk Dons?
Yea, not buying that rubbish. It's no coincidence that Rojo etc. look completely different players since working under Jose. You can say what you want about his attacking philosophy, but when it comes to defenders he has a way with them. Jose's teams have never conceeded a lot of goals, no matter where he's worked.
Lvg was a double edged sword, and its known to every one ,he had tremendous positives but his own decisions also cut his own tremendous positives, Pressing the opponents creativity from the source is important to nullify the opposition of chances which protect the defense better, but he never allowed his midfeilders to press in the opponents area and pivoted them to certain zones which was his stupidity , so the opponents just had to drop little deeper to create, but mourinho is using the same method now as lvg but fixed this issue which lvg 's own stupid decisions prevented him from doing so.
So a manager who in his career has been known for incredible defensive structure, has LVG to thank for our defensive success? The same defensive genius who was the mastermind behind great performances such as the 4-0 loss to Mk Dons?
Yea, not buying that rubbish. It's no coincidence that Rojo etc. look completely different players since working under Jose. You can say what you want about his attacking philosophy, but when it comes to defenders he has a way with them. Jose's teams have never conceeded a lot of goals, no matter where he's worked.
The opposite of it is to react to it and then counter , but we dont have the squad and defense to do this and not conceed and also not score on the counter
They're still ahead of us with an inferior squad. It's a bit odd that the Caf already deems him a failure and a fraud and whatnot, considering they might very well finish ahead of us.
So basically what you're saying is, Jose implemented defensive tactics different to what LVG did, but he has LVG to thank for a structure that for the most part was a failure? As I've said, Jose has always had a solid defence, no matter where he's gone, a manager who has won what Jose has, as recently as he has, doesn't have LVG to thank for our defensive structure. We were regularly being carved open under LVG and if it wasn't for De Gea, we would have been a lot worse off than we were. De Gea has barely had anything to do this season, that's the difference. Players like Rojo look miles better.
I don't buy into this rubbish that LVG is to thank for anything we are going through at the moment, Jose himself said he basically had to rip everything down and start anew. Was so relieved when we finally saw the back of him, couldn't deal with 90% possession, one shot on target and De Gea making 15 world class saves a game anymore.
Yes because mourinho has never done it before even in his career, and that why people call him defensive , bus parking manager prior to taking untied job, he tried the same until 3 defeats against city watford and chelsea ( after the herrera sending off) and we are ust not good enough defensively to play that way and not conceed.
People were so surprized the way we nullified chelsea, but the point is we just did our basics right and perfect.
All the defenders look good , because we press the source of creativity of the opponents anywhere on the pitch proactively, if we play reactively this same defense and same players will start to look bad and conceed.
I don't agree at all, in fact, the reason I've been so impressed with Rojo this season has been his ability to win challenges against players one on one, in the attacking third. In fact, Rojo is probably one of the best reactive defenders in the league this season imo. There's been many a time I can remember him winning balls from last ditch tackles in the box. You claim that we were poor defensively before those games, when in fact for the most part (bar freak results such as Watford and Chelsea) we have been solid defensively just about all season. We haven't conceded as much as under LVG, we haven't relied on De Gea as much, Smalling hasn't been in the form he was last season, yet we're still keeping teams out.
Jose doesn't have LVG to thank for a failed defensive approach, especially when he himself claimed he had to change just about everything. Jose came in and improved the team, that doesn't mean he has LVG to thank. The same way LVG doesn't have Moyes to thank.
You must talk about different team here. First of all, the defense set up is very different. LVG had his defender to man marking. FBs on their opposition wide attacker. More often than not Smalling went hunting with Blind stayed back & sweep. Since man marking would leave hole LVG wanted a very disciplined & pragmatic double pivot to fill in. Also the reason he ain't keen on Herrera as much since Herrera's defensive asset is pressing, winning the ball up the pitch. LVG wanted team to defend together which mean everyone would be back, but not sitting deep, plus possession based football, meaning the team utilized slow build up. LVG;s United attack more often than not like this: Stretch the play, push up pitch a bit, then pass back recycling possession and way for the deeps line to raise; recycling possession until the attackers are in position then find way to give them the ball. Pass pass pass until there is clear chance.
Mourinho is against slow build up from deep. Recycling possession between defenders, midfielders & GK were minimized. The team is instructed to push the play to opposition's half, even if it's to concede possession by using long ball. Losing possession is not the end of the world in opposition half since Mourinho employed counter pressing tactic. DDG would be crucified under LVG if he keeps kicking the ball long like this season. Mourinho employed zonal defense to reduce confusion in man marking for a team who play quick transitioning football. The midfielders were given more freedom & no longer asked to drop between the 2 CBs to pick up the ball from GK. Midfielders need to support the attackers more. It's impossible by dropping that deep, holding position, then be in opposition half after a long ball. The wide attacker, & no 10 are required to be dynamic. They are required to defend their zone track opposition's FBs, but at the same time have the determination to make long run quickly to be in attacking in other half when possession won/ ball transited to opposition's half. There is no slow build up for them to get into position like under LVG. It's more about the understanding of the game & desire to work hard to be there at the right place at the right time
Jose himself in his own interveiw has admitted to it that if we play that way , we will be doomed. i can quote his interveiw.
Where? It also doesn't change the fact that our defence for the most part all season has been very good.
We are still man marking , but the opponents creativity and counter attacks are controlled and stifled better because of high pressing in the midfeild from the source of creativity ,so its working better
We man marked chelsea's creative souces hazard and pedro and man marked costa as well . It was just us carrying out our principles right and perfectly , in a system which would exploit the space behind chelsea's wingbacks on a quick counter.
Because for the most part we played that way, We played 6-7 games without the high press and defended deeper in a reactive way , Lost 3 one against city in the first half where we looked absymal until we brought herrera on and pressed them high , vs watford where fellani was caught out of position and vs chelsea where herrera was benched and pogba and fellani were exposed in the midfeild .since the Chelsea defeat jose mourinho has changed to Posession based proactive play off the ball.
You must be watching a different game. Now when need to apply man marking tactic we alter our team to get more specialists: Herrera on Hazard, Darmian on Pedro, Young on Moses... The backbone structure is the same 2 CBs playing zonal. Preferred 2 b2b midfielders. Forwards to occupy oppositions' defense at all time lest them pinning us into our own box. Transit as fast as possible even if to concede possession. Dominating their central forward to prevent quick transition, forcing them to play through lines so we can counter press.
Under LVG our CB was asked to man mark even at the cost of shuffle the back. Anyone who didn't fall asleep can remember how Jones Rojo man mark their man and ended up on line with our forward, Valencia left his flank following Alexis Sanchez to left wing... Weirdly enough the midfield were the one to cover. Midfield high press under LVG is nonsense. Herrera was unfavored under LVG because his intense pressing. LVG wanted his midfielders to plug hole.
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- Good football
- Good signings
- More chances created
- Winning trophies
- Never lose (we don't lose?) mentality
- Best defense in the league
- Man management
- Tactical master class
- Loves and understands the club
You are aware that the average tenture of a football league manager is less than 1,5 years? If Jose can stay with us for at least 3 years then we should be content with that.
Also, you talk of ego as if it is a negative, when in reality it is quite the opposite. All the greats possess a larger than life ego, it is absolutely essential to their success. You show me a highly successful football manager who lacks a huge ego and I'll show you a flying pig.
Asi mentioned in one of the posts above, LVG was a doubled edged sword, and he cut his own great ideas with his own stupid decisions , its a history of him , that;s why people called him iron tulip van gaal. He wanted to press, but he restricted the midfeilders to press in oppositions half, from the source itself so the opponents could still create and the man marking could be beaten , so that's why herrera and even schneiderlin was restricted to win the ball in certain areas.
This is a part where mourinho has took it and improved , now we press from the source of creativity of the opponents no matter how deep in their half it is, so now the cb's could afford to play zonally as the opposition find it very very difficult to create itself.
The basic idea here of winning the ball back remains the same, as lvg unlike we have even seen with mourinho before who's teams ( chelsea inter and real madrid ) have always played in a counter attacking way by dropping deep and waiting for the mistake before the united job, now we dont wait for the mistake we force the mistake by pressing high instead of dropping deep.
Saf also played in a reactive counter attacking way but he had better midfield and defense than the one we have now who could winthe first and second balls and keep control.
What you saw in Chelsea match is typical Mourinho football (Anfield a couple of years ago was a good example), nothing to do with LvG. In fact, we were likely worse in the earlier of the season because he wanted to get rid of LvG football from players.
It was not typical mourinho , it was the opposite of it.
Then you are lost and just try to be too smart for your own good.
I could say the same thing.
He's a year and a half in the job and he's treading water top-4 wise. They've played 12 less games than United and a draw tonight and a win on Sunday would see us go ahead of them whilst level on games played.
His biggest tactical revolution was geggenpressing and that has been unsustainable for a full season. I don't think he's a fraud but I don't think he's (yet) on the same level as the elite managers
Sorry, but disagree again. Pressing is focusing on a certain zone, area of the pitch. Pressing while staying in zone is paradox by definition. Players defend their assigned zone is called zonal defense.
Mourinho stiffed & killed attacking creativity source, but was happy to let the less creative opposition players to hold on to possession which means these players may get desperate and make unforced errors while leaving space for counter attacking. As I pointed out, it's nothing to do with pressing creativity source. It's about keep the ball away from our own box, lock the attacker, and wait for the lesser creative players to make mistake. LVG tried to win possession game which he was proud despite toothless, borefest performance. Nothing to do with pressing winning ball. Under LVG it's holding ball which can start but goal kick after being attacked. Build from the back, slow build up, recycling possession, taking corner then pass back to DDG!
You didn't watch football if you think Mourinho's team didn't play pressing. His Porto pressed very well. Inter could press well when needed. Real Madrid was one of a few teams that came out pressing a peak Pep Barcelona team. It's not 100% successful but to say Mourinho's team not pressing is total bs.
It's not the only game.
Disagree again that we were good winning first & second ball under SAF (SAF's counter attack football start since 2007). SAF neglected the midfield. Carrick was not hitting his peak after 2010. Hagreaves was great but he didn't play that much. We relied on defending well and regain possession in deep possession and quick transition to counter attack. If we're that good with winning first & second ball we don't need to defend that deep.
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Yes, he's the one for me. He's turned us around this season, got to know the players...knows the ones he can't work with and will have summer window to adjust things more to his needs and liking. He's made us defensively sound even though we've had to chop and change consistently at the back. He's got us creating more chances than we have since Fergie retired. He's effectively solved the 'Rooney problem' to the extent we haven't heard a peep from the 'Rooney clan' and he's nurturing and patiently moulding one of our brightest young players in Rashford. Now...if we can just start banging in a few more of those chances then the future looks very good. He's got the right arrogance and self belief to manage United even though sometimes his mouth speaks before he thinks occasionally. He's also won a trophy in his first season at United. There only 3 or 4 for any team to win, depending on what competitions they are in, so that ain't bad.
This day 6 years ago Mourinho got sent off in El Classico. Seems to have really irked me based on my facebook memories.
I conclude that I am easily swayed since I spend my time defending him here!
I conclude that I am easily swayed since I spend my time defending him here!
See , this is a one of game ,where mourinho has specially played this way to play and disrupt the barcelona side who holds the ball so well and creates and have creativity all over the pitch, but it only came after his 2-3 defeats against them when he defended deep and failed to beat them or dominate them, he played barcelona that day. This was a real madrid team who had all the qualities in their players in all areas. This is the way to press and disrupt the great posession based sides . bayern munich did the same , but they play against every opposition the same way who's foundations were built by lvg himself and taken forward by heynkes.
In barcelona team the source of creativity were 3 players xavi iniesta and messi in the midfeild and pressing all 3 made them to loose the ball and stifle their creativity , pressing the defenders and goal keepers do not mean pressing the source of creativity as its just meant to stopthem playing out from the back and nullify the back and side passes they make when pressed in the midfeild to keep the ball.
the source of creativity is more oftern and not are in the midfeild which when pressed makes opponents loose the ball and nulify their most attacking and goal scoring threat.
But Real madrid team never played the same style through the course of the season against all opponents. This was not their style of play for every game , nither was inter's and chelsea's. because when jose mourinho when given a job to build a side he never builds a posession based footballing side who plays on posession and controls the ball and controls the games and counter attacks. He always buys positionally great defensive players who hold the play and counter . So if mourinho directly took over from saf we would have never seen such a united side who are so dominant to win the ball back and create opportunities with the ball having maximum posession.
If jose took over from saf i could see us signing matic in the midfeild and playing on counter against all sides , in europe as well, which is where against top posession based sides that type of tactics are termed as bus parking by those sides. We never pressed high vs barcelona is 2 games in ucl finals , because the team was built that way and we were missing scholes.
Mourinho did the same against lvg's united . He never pressed high and parked the bus at home itself and knicked a goal on the counter. Because he did the rebuilding job there and he never builds a team who are proactive in nature to win the back ball and force the mistake.
Mourinho followed lvg , and this is helping him to play like this every game against every side , that's why teams can not create many chances against us. I am not saying that playing deep and counter attack is bus parking , but that's they way its been potrayed by pep and other posession based lawyers , so until they are in this league is better to answer them and hit back playing the attacking way , which lvg certainly played a part on building the foundations on
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