Dirty, negative football

[Home&Away]

LVG football was dirty, negative football. Ive quite enjoyed 90% of the football this season. Of course against the so called bigger teams its going to be tighter and more defensive its takes a moment of magic most of the time to win these games. It was the same under Fergie only 2 maybe 3 of his teams used to play fast ferocious attacking football against the big sides. Most people forget the team we have now is nowhere near the quality of those sides.

The football Jose has got us playing was actually the way i though LVG would have us playing when we signed him as manager. How wrong was i

I'm biased but I shall speak my opinion. LVG's football wasn't dirty. Why? Because our main goal was to maintain possession - ie to actually play football with the ball at our feet. It was negative in the sense that we may not hoof the ball out but there is a difference between maintaining possesion and positioning and being restrictive. LVG would not play forwards as wingback especially not for nearly a full game. Just because the football was not particularly entertaining doesn't mean it was dirty or negative football. It was a style of football that Barcelona and Bayern consistently play where they show minimal respect to their opposition and concentrate more on their own game.

Now we have a manager who rightfully or wrongly adapts and gives a lot of respect to the opponent; will defend with 6 but attack with one to ensure we are ready to counterattack after every the opposition have a go.

There is a significant difference; sorry I had to speak my word - as much as Jose has his own die hard fans; I am one of LVG's and I understand what he was trying to do - get united in playing there very own style of football where the opposition have to rely on alternating their tactics like Jose does and respect us all simply because we have the ball at our feet.

 

[Theonas]

Jose gave Porto half of their European cups in their history, he gave Inter their first European Cup in over 50 years (Inter fans still love Mourinho), he is 10% of the reason Chelsea are relevant as a club in modern football (the other 90% being Roman). He took on a team that were considered the best in the history of football by many and bested them in the Champions League in 2010 and league in 2012; everyone was bullied by Guardiola's Barcelona (including Ferguson) except Mourinho. If Mourinho's success is as you say it is then it must necessarily be that no manager will ever meet your expectations (unless of course your expectations are not rational but rather emotionally based )

There is no manager that is a perfect fit for our club so pointing out his flaws wont do much I have no loyalties to him; he is here to make us competitive and win silverware; he can feck off after a few years.

Touché man There is an element of that of course. Porto, Chelsea and Inter were the equivalent of they who never been laid, not even kissed in some cases. So of course he's the messiah for them for doing what he did. We are not, we're the most popular, biggest and richest, it takes more to impress us and so it should be. Anyway this getting laid analogy is getting out hand. I actually agree that if he manages to stabilize us as a club at least and keep us relevant, he will have done a good enough job after which can go "feck off" and we can look for better things after him.

 

[Theonas]

I'm biased but I shall speak my opinion. LVG's football wasn't dirty. Why? Because our main goal was to maintain possession - ie to actually play football with the ball at our feet. It was negative in the sense that we may not hoof the ball out but there is a difference between maintaining possesion and positioning and being restrictive. LVG would not play forwards as wingback especially not for nearly a full game. Just because the football was not particularly entertaining doesn't mean it was dirty or negative football. It was a style of football that Barcelona and Bayern consistently play where they show minimal respect to their opposition and concentrate more on their own game.

Now we have a manager who rightfully or wrongly adapts and gives a lot of respect to the opponent; will defend with 6 but attack with one to ensure we are ready to counterattack after every the opposition have a go.

There is a significant difference; sorry I had to speak my word - as much as Jose has his own die hard fans; I am one of LVG's and I understand what he was trying to do - get united in playing there very own style of football where the opposition have to rely on alternating their tactics like Jose does and respect us all simply because we have the ball at our feet.

It is truly extraordinary that some fans now believe that wanting to have the ball is negative football. Assuming that impotence in the final third is a direct result of wanting to have the ball and control possession has to be one of the strangest narratives emerging in the past few years. You'd think Europe's elite (including us under Fergie) were having 30% possession every game.

 

[Home&Away]

Jose gave Porto half of their European cups in their history, he gave Inter their first European Cup in over 50 years (Inter fans still love Mourinho), he is 10% of the reason Chelsea are relevant as a club in modern football (the other 90% being Roman). He took on a team that were considered the best in the history of football by many and bested them in the Champions League in 2010 and league in 2012; everyone was bullied by Guardiola's Barcelona (including Ferguson) except Mourinho. If Mourinho's success is as you say it is then it must necessarily be that no manager will ever meet your expectations (unless of course your expectations are not rational but rather emotionally based )

There is no manager that is a perfect fit for our club so pointing out his flaws wont do much I have no loyalties to him; he is here to make us competitive and win silverware; he can feck off after a few years.

Again - you have mistaken what people are saying. There is success that will make everyone happy and then there is success with beautiful football and more importantly consistency in success that will win people over. so far for all his success has yet to keep anything going for longer than 3 years.

He will get our foot in the door but he has yet to show with anybody that he can keep it there. That's why some fans are a bit reserved about him and he will need to consistently adapt the team, the tactics and himself to keep something growing.

United and its fans have consistently been accused of being glory hunters. Winning some trophies in a 3 year stint before leaving us 7th is only a momentary happiness; some of us believe we can aim for more. However - let's take it a step at a time - win some things under Jose first.

 

[dichinero]

LVG football was dirty, negative football.

Goodness me. It was slow, sometimes tedious but it was not dirty and negative. Pep, tweaked LvG's philosophy in the final third to great effect and with great players.

Some serious revisionism to justify José's tactics is borderline desperate. LvG will not play 6 at the back like José has done on occasions

 

[el3mel]

What I don't personally understand is defending someone who has done absolutely nothing of note for our club. To me, the only people who deserve unconditional love and support are the likes of Sir Alex, Sir Bobby, Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Cantona, etc ... People who have directly contributed to some of the best times for us following the club. The rest should be analysed from a neutral perspective.

That's a good idea but first those who let their hatred for him while he was at Chelsea affect their opinion on him and jumb to attack him for every possible chance just first apply this advice before giving it to others ! Just saying.

Some of our fans are still hating him for his time at Chelsea and it lets them attack him on every bad thing and that's very clear and undeniable IMO.

 

[Kammy26]

I'm biased but I shall speak my opinion. LVG's football wasn't dirty. Why? Because our main goal was to maintain possession - ie to actually play football with the ball at our feet. It was negative in the sense that we may not hoof the ball out but there is a difference between maintaining possesion and positioning and being restrictive. LVG would not play forwards as wingback especially not for nearly a full game. Just because the football was not particularly entertaining doesn't mean it was dirty or negative football. It was a style of football that Barcelona and Bayern consistently play where they show minimal respect to their opposition and concentrate more on their own game.

Now we have a manager who rightfully or wrongly adapts and gives a lot of respect to the opponent; will defend with 6 but attack with one to ensure we are ready to counterattack after every the opposition have a go.

There is a significant difference; sorry I had to speak my word - as much as Jose has his own die hard fans; I am one of LVG's and I understand what he was trying to do - get united in playing there very own style of football where the opposition have to rely on alternating their tactics like Jose does and respect us all simply because we have the ball at our feet.

Yes maybe LVG football wasn't dirty as per say but it was definatley negative. LVG style was maybe the style of football Barcelona and Bayern Munich play but to play this style you need to have a certain set of players, it can't trained into players in there late 20s early 30s especially the players we had who were constantly used to counter attacking football this is we're LVG fails any good manager would adapt to the players he has this is were mourinho is superior. As for concentrating on our own game I don't remember the team under van gal doing this if you call passing the ball sideways in midfield over and over again concentrating on your own game then fair enough that's your opinion but I don't see it that way. Playing 2 defensive midfielders against relegation teams says it all about LVG. 1-2 shots on target per game every single game is not football I want to see, against the big guns fair enough, but this was happening against relagation teams.

And some other poster saying "it beggars believe that some fans believe wanting the ball is negative football". I don't know we're the poster got that from, people want the ball if the teams going to do something with it, not just wanting the ball for the sake of passing waiting for you opponent to make a mistake. Why not take the ball and drive at your opponent forceing them to make a mistake

 

[breakout67]

Again - you have mistaken what people are saying. There is success that will make everyone happy and then there is success with beautiful football and more importantly consistency in success that will win people over. so far for all his success has yet to keep anything going for longer than 3 years.

He will get our foot in the door but he has yet to show with anybody that he can keep it there. That's why some fans are a bit reserved about him and he will need to consistently adapt the team, the tactics and himself to keep something growing.

United and its fans have consistently been accused of being glory hunters. Winning some trophies in a 3 year stint before leaving us 7th is only a momentary happiness; some of us believe we can aim for more. However - let's take it a step at a time - win some things under Jose first.

You are right that those thinking that Jose will stay here for 10 years are in denial.

But this idea that there are better alternatives to Jose is influenced by your bias in my opinion. There are only different managers than Jose, there are no better managers. Guardiola, Ancelotti, Allegri etc. are on a similar level of manager but have other weaknesses in their management. Bayern Munich and Barcelona are better structured clubs than us and Real Madrid are a bigger club than us. Yet all 3 of these clubs have a revolving door of Managers. I think to expect a manager with Longevity in the modern game is naive.

There is success and there is success that will make YOU happy. I have an idea that the only way you would be happy is if you went into a time machine and Ferguson was winning back to back league titles. I also have a feeling that I have higher standards than you for what is suitable for a man united manager; there is no manager in my opinion currently that is suited to managing us so i simply accept that our manager will be a good manager with some flaws; whereas it seems that you think there is a manager that suits us. Who do you think is the manager we can appoint that will get us playing beautiful football, have us defensively solid, and win trophies over and over again for the next 10 years?

 

[Kammy26]

Goodness me. It was slow, sometimes tedious but it was not dirty and negative. Pep, tweaked LvG's philosophy in the final third to great effect and with great players.

Some serious revisionism to justify José's tactics is borderline desperate. LvG will not play 6 at the back like José has done on occasions

Since when is playing 6 at the back seen as dirty football. Against big teams I don't see the issue with this, if we had a squad like we had in 06-09 fair enough I'd complain, if mourinho had a squad like he had at Madrid then I don't think he would ever go 6 at the back, all it is pragmatic management by mourinho.

 

[Theonas]

That's a good idea but first those who let their hatred for him while he was at Chelsea affect their opinion on him and jumb to attack him for every possible chance just first apply this advice before giving it to others ! Just saying.

Some of our fans are still hating him for his time at Chelsea and it lets them attack him on every bad thing and that's very clear and undeniable IMO.

There is definitely a lot of that. It is unreasonable to expect people to not have predisposed ideas either side. Some liked him, some hated him, some disliked him, some were indifferent. It is pointless to try and avoid that which is why I feel the focus should be on the argument. If the argument against or for is well presented, the feelings of the messenger should not be taken into consideration. What I don't like is arguments like "he is our manager, therefore we should be supportive". I agree with that at Old Trafford as any other attitude will hurt the team but in a discussion forum? I just don't get it this concept of giving the benefit of the doubt to someone who did nothing to earn it.

 

[Theonas]

Since when is playing 6 at the back seen as dirty football. Against big teams I don't see the issue with this, if we had a squad like we had in 06-09 fair enough I'd complain, if mourinho had a squad like he had at Madrid then I don't think he would ever go 6 at the back, all it is pragmatic management by mourinho.

You think our squad is only good enough to play 6 at the back? So you feel our squad is about the same level as the second tier of the PL? Because that's pretty much how they set up against the big teams. Liverpool drew away to City, us and Spurs and won at Arsenal and Chelsea. Do you think they have a much better squad than us? You know since they had better results and played nowhere near as defensive.

 

[dichinero]

Since when is playing 6 at the back seen as dirty football. Against big teams I don't see the issue with this, if we had a squad like we had in 06-09 fair enough I'd complain, if mourinho had a squad like he had at Madrid then I don't think he would ever go 6 at the back, all it is pragmatic management by mourinho.

Just like when we played 8 at the back against the mighty Middlesbrough. Sometimes, I forget that we are Manchester United.

 

[Kammy26]

You think our squad is only good enough to play 6 at the back? So you feel our squad is about the same level as the second tier of the PL? Because that's pretty much how they set up against the big teams. Liverpool drew away to City, us and Spurs and won at Arsenal and Chelsea. Do you think they have a much better squad than us? You know since they had better results and played nowhere near as defensive.

Just like when we played 8 at the back against the mighty Middlesbrough. Sometimes, I forget that we are Manchester United.

No maybe our squad doesn't have to play 6 at the back, but to be fair to mourinho he's not played 6 at the back every game. When he played 6 at the back against Chelsea everyone was loving it and I bet you 2 were loving it aswel, couple bad results and people jumping on his back. Atleast give the man a season or 2 to get it completely right. If we win the europa league will you be satisfied with the season? I will and I think a lot of other united fans will.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

The rest should be analysed from a neutral perspective.

You are kidding right?! The loudest voices on this thread are those of people (yourself included) who have been extremely open about their hatred of Mourinho since before he even joined the club. And you reckon you guys are the ones 'analysing from a neutral perspective'?!

I would say that the vast majority of United fans (such as the 87.5% on this forum who voted that he should keep his job even if we don't qualify for the CL) are actually the ones 'analysing from a neutral perspective', because they are not viewing things through the prism of such strong emotional feelings for or against the manager. I can't believe that many United fans had anything but a grudging respect for Mourinho's achievements and/or a belief that he was/is the right man for the job before he came to United - why would they actively 'love' an opposition manager to the extent that it then coloured their views once he became United manager? It just doesn't stack up - but it obviously helps you guys to believe that as you can't seem to believe that anybody could have differing opinions on football, and this season, to you.

 

[Theonas]

You are kidding right?! The loudest voices on this thread are those of people (yourself included) who have been extremely open about their hatred of Mourinho since before he even joined the club. And you reckon you guys are the ones 'analysing from a neutral perspective'?!

I would say that the vast majority of United fans (such as the 87.5% on this forum who voted that he should keep his job even if we don't qualify for the CL) are actually the ones 'analysing from a neutral perspective', because they are not viewing things through the prism of such strong emotional feelings for or against the manager. I can't believe that many United fans had anything but a grudging respect for Mourinho's achievements and/or a belief that he was/is the right man for the job before he came to United - why would they actively 'love' an opposition manager to the extent that it then coloured their views once he became United manager? It just doesn't stack up - but it obviously helps you guys to believe that as you can't seem to believe that anybody could have differing opinions on football, and this season, to you.

First, I have never claimed any view is more neutral, why are you saying that? It is clearly stated that both sides can be too emotional. The loudest voices on this thread it looks to me have no specific side. There are a lot of haters and lovers. I don't see any clear detectable patterns. My point was that just like it's unfair to argue; "I just hate his stupid face", it is equally ridiculous to argue; "well he is ours so we should be supportive". Both don't make sense and are distracting from evaluating his work.

Why would fans love him? I don't know. Plenty have already stated they did throughout last year. He has enjoyed an almost mythical status around here since even before Sir Alex announced his retirement. I am assuming some just are attracted to the idea of the serial whatever it takes winner. Some are probably just too fed up with how disappointing we have been that they see him as the safest bet and some might just love his personality or whatever. Anyway my entire point has been about presenting arguments as opposed to vague nonsense like the partisan discussion that has been had recently.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

First, I have never claimed any view is more neutral, why are you saying that? It is clearly stated that both sides can be too emotional. The loudest voices on this thread it looks to me have no specific side. There are a lot of haters and lovers. I don't see any clear detectable patterns. My point was that just like it's unfair to argue; "I just hate his stupid face", it is equally ridiculous to argue; "well he is ours so we should be supportive". Both don't make sense and are distracting from evaluating his work.

Why would fans love him? I don't know. Plenty have already stated they did throughout last year. He has enjoyed an almost mythical status around here since even before Sir Alex announced his retirement. I am assuming some just are attracted to the idea of the serial whatever it takes winner. Some are probably just too fed up with how disappointing we have been that they see him as the safest bet and some might just love his personality or whatever. Anyway my entire point has been about presenting arguments as opposed to vague nonsense like the partisan discussion that has been had recently.

No, you're missing my point. You are saying that there are lovers and haters, and implying that both are as blinkered/biased in their views as each other. We know that there are haters - lots of posters have admitted that they already hated him (I even recall some saying before the season had started that there was pretty much nothing that he could do to win them over). What I am arguing is that there aren't 'lovers' as such - why would a United fan have a pre-existing love of Mourinho? I just don't buy it. I think there were plenty of fans who thought he was a great manager and wanted him at the club - but that is not LOVE. What I'm arguing is that there is far more of an emotional element that skews the views of the 'haters' than there is on the other side of the argument. I think the vast majority of United fans (such as those making up the 87.5% in the poll that I referenced earlier) are actually much closer to being able to 'analyse Mourinho from a neutral perspective' (to borrow your phrase), than those that are looking through the emotional filter of hatred.

 

[Theonas]

No, you're missing my point. You are saying that there are lovers and haters, and implying that both are as blinkered/biased in their views as each other. We know that there are haters - lots of posters have admitted that they already hated him (I even recall some saying before the season had started that there was pretty much nothing that he could do to win them over). What I am arguing is that there aren't 'lovers' as such - why would a United fan have a pre-existing love of Mourinho? I just don't buy it. I think there were plenty of fans who thought he was a great manager and wanted him at the club - but that is not LOVE. What I'm arguing is that there is far more of an emotional element that skews the views of the 'haters' than there is on the other side of the argument. I think the vast majority of United fans (such as those making up the 87.5% in the poll that I referenced earlier) are actually much closer to being able to 'analyse Mourinho from a neutral perspective' (to borrow your phrase), than those that are looking through the emotional filter of hatred.

Ah I see what you mean. You're right in that I misunderstood you. However, I don't really share that view that there are no lovers in that sense. Maybe it's not lovers in the sense that they worship him the way they did our own heroes of course but lovers in the sense that they admire his attitude and approach to management. Some unmistakeably point out how his unprincipled straight forward approach is something they greatly admired. This to me sounds like the exact flip coin of the attitude that this very element to him is dislikeable. A big narrative developed since the heydeys of Barcelona and how they annoyed people with their holier than thou attitude in how the game should be played. This led to that clash between idealism and pragmatism, philosophy of approach vs flexibility, etc ... With our fans in particular, this has been even more intense with LvG who fit into the latter and his frustrating football has pushed people who were in the middle of that narrative to one side and driven people who were already in it over the edge. Nobody epitomises the contract to all of that than Mourinho. He is viewed as the archetype pragmatic who will not be bound by ideals over the the one main task that is winning. I am not saying that those narratives are true as nothing in life is that neatly simple but I think those perceptions are why there indeed has been a large portion of "lovers" of Mourinho.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Ah I see what you mean. You're right in that I misunderstood you. However, I don't really share that view that there are no lovers in that sense. Maybe it's not lovers in the sense that they worship him the way they did our own heroes of course but lovers in the sense that they admire his attitude and approach to management. Some unmistakeably point out how his unprincipled straight forward approach is something they greatly admired. This to me sounds like the exact flip coin of the attitude that this very element to him is dislikeable. A big narrative developed since the heydeys of Barcelona and how they annoyed people with their holier than thou attitude in how the game should be played. This led to that clash between idealism and pragmatism, philosophy of approach vs flexibility, etc ... With our fans in particular, this has been even more intense with LvG who fit into the latter and his frustrating football has pushed people who were in the middle of that narrative to one side and driven people who were already in it over the edge. Nobody epitomises the contract to all of that than Mourinho. He is viewed as the archetype pragmatic who will not be bound by ideals over the the one main task that is winning. I am not saying that those narratives are true as nothing in life is that neatly simple but I think those perceptions are why there indeed has been a large portion of "lovers" of Mourinho.

I think your conflation of 'greatly admiring' someone with the emotion of LOVE (and therefore the flipside of the emotion of HATE) is tenuous! As previously stated we know that plenty of people on here hate Mourinho with a passion cos they've been quite open about it. I'm sure that there are people on here that 'greatly admire' Mourinho, but greatly admiring someone or something is not as likely to cloud your opinion as hating them.

I will give you one thing though - your personal grudge (if I can call it that) against Mourinho seems to be mainly based on his football ideology, which whilst I might disagree with it, is fair enough as football is subjective. My argument would be to at least wait and see what he serves up when he gets a couple more flair players into the team - as if he could have relied on more players putting the ball into the net this season then I think we would have seen less cagey, more expansive football over the last few weeks. We have had a major fixture fixture pile-up - aligned to some key injuries - over the last couple of months and it therefore seems unfair to use that period as sole evidence of how Mourinho would play with a fit defence, a new midfield partner for Herrera and Pogba, and the likes of Griezmann and Lukaku up front.

 

[dichinero]

No maybe our squad doesn't have to play 6 at the back, but to be fair to mourinho he's not played 6 at the back every game. When he played 6 at the back against Chelsea everyone was loving it and I bet you 2 were loving it aswel, couple bad results and people jumping on his back. Atleast give the man a season or 2 to get it completely right. If we win the europa league will you be satisfied with the season? I will and I think a lot of other united fans will.

I can tell you now that I don't enjoy that brand of football. I may not like José but it doesn't mean that I don't think that he can do much better than he is doing with the squad at his disposal. It might surprise you to know that as much as I can't stand the man, I don't want him sacked. But that doesn't mean that questions should not be raise about HIS OWN performance so far this season.

His football this season has been riddled with rudimentary tactics, stifle jobs, negative football with a sprinkle of excitement. My frustration is not personal but because I believe that the man is and should be better than this. I believe that the squad is capable of better than this.

What I find surprising, which isn't surprising anymore is that fans will lap up whatever José Mourinho will feed fans. The man can get away with murder unquestioned. Because it's José, fans are not allowed to criticize what would have been happily criticized if it were a rival manager. There is hardly an ex footballer or pundit that has been supportive of anything he has done this season apart from his signings which are great.

 

[Xaviesta]

Took me a while to get over my dislike too. I say "get over" but I still think he's an unpleasant knob. I've made a conscious effort to not let this cloud my assessment of him as a manager though. Which is working for me, so far.

If we don't improve next season I suspect I'll end up turning on him quicker than I did with Van Gaal/Moyes. Mind you, I kind of think they're both dickheads too. Here's hoping we can find a manager who is both competent AND likeable when Jose moves on!

When did you turn on van Gaal? Unless i have confused you with others, i felt you were reasonable with van Gaal, gave him a season and a half before turning on him.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

What I find surprising, which isn't surprising anymore is that fans will lap up whatever José Mourinho will feed fans. The man can get away with murder unquestioned. Because it's José, fans are not allowed to criticize what would have been happily criticized if it were a rival manager. There is hardly an ex footballer or pundit that has been supportive of anything he has done this season apart from his signings which are great.

Do you really believe this drivel? Do you really believe that dyed in the wool United fans, who have followed the club through thick and thin, are really just 'lapping up' what Mourinho tells us? Just because 'it's Jose'?

Or could you do us the service of considering that a) we might have seen enough green shoots in our play this season to warrant giving him more than one fecking season to continue the job that he has started, and b) that we might also be taking into account his unparralleled track record of success everwhere he has ever managed?

It's one thing to hold your own views (however blinkered) but stop trying to intimate that anyone that is remotely supportive of Mourinho is only doing it because they are blinded by their love for him. Can you understand that most of us only care about the club? Some of you seem to hate Mourinho more than you love the club - someone even stated a few posts above that even our victories are 'bittersweet' with him in charge....I mean, what??!!

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about @Theonas.

 

[prtk0811]

When did you turn on van Gaal? Unless i have confused you with others, i felt you were reasonable with van Gaal, gave him a season and a half before turning on him.

Van gaal would still be a united manager this year and retired the next year if Jose was not available, He was not very popular as we have seen fergie football for years but he was a very strong manager with a very strong philosophy.

His record against top teams in the league speak for itself. And As a united fan I would still like positives of his philosophy absorbed in the style of play in the future.

Lvg was gone , because Mourinho was availabe for the summer.

 

[Theonas]

I think your conflation of 'greatly admiring' someone with the emotion of LOVE (and therefore the flipside of the emotion of HATE) is tenuous! As previously stated we know that plenty of people on here hate Mourinho with a passion cos they've been quite open about it. I'm sure that there are people on here that 'greatly admire' Mourinho, but greatly admiring someone or something is not as likely to cloud your opinion as hating them.

I will give you one thing though - your personal grudge (if I can call it that) against Mourinho seems to be mainly based on his football ideology, which whilst I might disagree with it, is fair enough as football is subjective. My argument would be to at least wait and see what he serves up when he gets a couple more flair players into the team - as if he could have relied on more players putting the ball into the net this season then I think we would have seen less cagey, more expansive football over the last few weeks. We have had a major fixture fixture pile-up - aligned to some key injuries - over the last couple of months and it therefore seems unfair to use that period as sole evidence of how Mourinho would play with a fit defence, a new midfield partner for Herrera and Pogba, and the likes of Griezmann and Lukaku up front.

I really see where you're coming from and I cannot argue confidently about the nuances of emotions. I just feel that just like you think I am calling what is essentially admiration, love. You are applying a similar thing to what is essentially a dislike based on his footballing approach and calling it intense hate. I personally feel hate is just too strong of a word to use about anybody who does not affect your life personally or is just an evil person in general but of course I understand that that might not be the case for everyone.

My point all along has been to focus on the argument. It should be self containing and if the points are well made, it doesn't matter if it's coming from a place of love or hate. If one feels it is biased, it should be seen in the actual argument, not in relation to the poster. I think I am mainly commenting on some posters whose response is "ah well I can't take you seriously because you like/don't like him" because I feel so what? The only thing that should be relevant is if the argument itself makes sense.

Yes I think you are within the ball park when it comes to my personal attitude to Mourinho. Although I would say I am a big of the opposite in the sense that I remember being in the minority in actually liking him back in his first stint with Chelsea and even Inter. I remember almost being embarrassed for liking his brash rebellious attitude that amounted to basically "stick it up to the man". I just considered him a breath of fresh air who was witty, mischievous and a rebel against the elite that was us and later on Barcelona. To be fair, I still do and if he went on to manage someone like Atlético Madrid or any another club that is not the super elite, I would take genuine pleasure in seeing them upset the odds. My problem with him is that all these attributes are not only unsuitable to elite clubs, but actually harmful to their image and brand and I used the evidence of the likes of Abramovic, City, Real, Barcelona have all in one way or another ignored or have been unsatisfied with what he brought. I hope that clarifies my attitude towards him being our manager.

 

[dichinero]

It's one thing to hold your own views (however blinkered) but stop trying to intimate that anyone that is remotely supportive of Mourinho is only doing it because they are blinded by their love for him. Can you understand that most of us only care about the club? Some of you seem to hate Mourinho more than you love the club - someone even stated a few posts above that even our victories are 'bittersweet' with him in charge....I mean, what??!!

Here we go with the righteous posts. I don't know what this has to do with what I said. You've conveniently ignored that I said despite not being convinced by José, I want him to stay and hopes he changes for the better.
I want to believe I've been on this forum long enough to see how people respond to different things and managers, ours and others and some of what José has been up this season would not have been looked upon well, had it been other managers.

At the end of the day, every manager needs to be criticised if he is not meeting expectations, regardless of their past successes, just as LvG was.

You should not be on a forum if you think criticism of a United manager translates to hate over love of the club, which I just find to be a ridiculous statement.

 

[prtk0811]

Here we go with the righteous posts. I don't know what this has to do with what I said. You've conveniently ignored that I said despite not being convinced by José, I want him to stay and hopes he changes for the better.
I want to believe I've been on this forum long enough to see how people respond to different things and managers, ours and others and some of what José has been up this season would not have been looked upon well, had it been other managers.

At the end of the day, every manager needs to be criticised if he is not meeting expectations, regardless of their past successes, just as LvG was.

You should not be on a forum if you think criticism of a United manager translates to hate over love of the club, which I just find to be a ridiculous statement.

Pep deserves More criticism than jose this season. Jose's hands are bound by lack of quality, Lack of depth for the philosophy we want to perfect and also critical injuries and Fixture congestion with a difficult europa league campaign with the league. We made lot of mistakes in transfer market bothin outgoing and incomming players including this season as we missed some crucial targets to other clubs in the window.

Jose might deserve critisim in some games specially at the start of the season, but this team aint his team yet and we have to buy players we need in the summer to get any better. You cant expect jose to suddenly play possession based lvg football and keep the ball without any meaning full penetration and therefore not double up on the wings.

We sold players we should have kept because they dint suit lvg philosophy, and we dint buy some players which we needed to improve . Jose cant fix eveything in one window. No unbalanced squad is ever capable of challenging for a epl title, and we are still in contention to win 2 trophies including direct qualification into group stages of ucl, with an unbalanced squad. Every manager deserves critisism but the critisism and judgement having being forced to put with square pegs in round holes is wrong.

 

[adexkola]

I'm biased but I shall speak my opinion. LVG's football wasn't dirty. Why? Because our main goal was to maintain possession - ie to actually play football with the ball at our feet. It was negative in the sense that we may not hoof the ball out but there is a difference between maintaining possesion and positioning and being restrictive. LVG would not play forwards as wingback especially not for nearly a full game. Just because the football was not particularly entertaining doesn't mean it was dirty or negative football. It was a style of football that Barcelona and Bayern consistently play where they show minimal respect to their opposition and concentrate more on their own game.

Now we have a manager who rightfully or wrongly adapts and gives a lot of respect to the opponent; will defend with 6 but attack with one to ensure we are ready to counterattack after every the opposition have a go.

There is a significant difference; sorry I had to speak my word - as much as Jose has his own die hard fans; I am one of LVG's and I understand what he was trying to do - get united in playing there very own style of football where the opposition have to rely on alternating their tactics like Jose does and respect us all simply because we have the ball at our feet.

That's a weird way of stating it.

 

[prtk0811]

LvG will not play 6 at the back like José has done on occasions

Conte has played 7 at the back whole season , and juventus have done it too many times, When the transition from defense to attack is faster it does not matter when the wingers contribute defensively , Ferguson has done it lots of times as well , but when you dont have the right players to do both jobs effetively and players suiting different philosophy and lethargic players in midfeild and attack, then you cant expect jose to play on LVG style posession based football just to not look us bad.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

When did you turn on van Gaal? Unless i have confused you with others, i felt you were reasonable with van Gaal, gave him a season and a half before turning on him.

Yeah. About a season and a half. Think I gave up on him around January in season two.

 

[dichinero]

Pep deserves More criticism than jose this season. Jose's hands are bound by lack of quality, Lack of depth for the philosophy we want to perfect and also critical injuries and Fixture congestion with a difficult europa league campaign with the league. We made lot of mistakes in transfer market bothin outgoing and incomming players including this season as we missed some crucial targets to other clubs in the window.

I'm not concerned about Pep and we should not use him as stick to measure the expectation demanded from José. Either way, they've both not been up to scratch but they should both be given another season to do their thing. That said, I personally expected more from José than I did with Pep. Pep can claim naivety and adaptation to a new league, José has no excuses imo.

Conte has played 7 at the back whole season , and juventus have done it too many times, When the transition from defense to attack is faster it does not matter when the wingers contribute defensively

My friend, you will not find anyone calling what Chelsea and Juventus do as a back 7, whether in transition or not. What José does on those occasions is to defend, play negative football and hope for a lucky chance to come our way. Different worlds. It's like saying Spurs and Arsenal have been playing a back 7 too.

 

[TheReligion]

Do you really believe this drivel? Do you really believe that dyed in the wool United fans, who have followed the club through thick and thin, are really just 'lapping up' what Mourinho tells us? Just because 'it's Jose'?

Or could you do us the service of considering that a) we might have seen enough green shoots in our play this season to warrant giving him more than one fecking season to continue the job that he has started, and b) that we might also be taking into account his unparralleled track record of success everwhere he has ever managed?

It's one thing to hold your own views (however blinkered) but stop trying to intimate that anyone that is remotely supportive of Mourinho is only doing it because they are blinded by their love for him. Can you understand that most of us only care about the club? Some of you seem to hate Mourinho more than you love the club - someone even stated a few posts above that even our victories are 'bittersweet' with him in charge....I mean, what??!!

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about @Theonas.

Good post.

 

[BebétheBest]

Here we go with the righteous posts. I don't know what this has to do with what I said. You've conveniently ignored that I said despite not being convinced by José, I want him to stay and hopes he changes for the better.
I want to believe I've been on this forum long enough to see how people respond to different things and managers, ours and others and some of what José has been up this season would not have been looked upon well, had it been other managers.

At the end of the day, every manager needs to be criticised if he is not meeting expectations, regardless of their past successes, just as LvG was.

You should not be on a forum if you think criticism of a United manager translates to hate over love of the club, which I just find to be a ridiculous statement.

I for one don't want to even let myself question José less any doubts creep in.

It's too worrying a prospect to even consider. I mean if José isn't the man to bring us back to where we should be with the biggest wage budget in football and almost unlimited transfer funds then what hope is there left?

There's many of us desperate and concerned but falling out with each other over the direction the club is going in doesn't help anyone.

 

[Paxi]

I'm a Jose fan but I have to admit we are terrible tonight.

 

[El Jefe]

I'm a Jose fan but I have to admit we are terrible tonight.

I agree. I've supported him a lot but this is disgusting.

This is fecking Celta Vigo at home. Awful midset from Mourinho and I wonder what SAF makes of this.

 

[Jev]

I was actually really warming to him for much of the season but I'm getting sick of him now. Reactionary tactics, loser mentality.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

Remember earlier this season, before he went full Van Gaal, when he paid lip service to attacking football and entertainment traditions?

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Jose has got this completely wrong tonight. His persistent selections of Lingard and Fellaini is just bizarre. He left it too late to make substitutions and then brings on Rooney. I like Jose but he needs to be better next season.

 

[Kevin]

Dirty negative football... and he's not even carrying it out well which is a bigger problem. We concede quite big chances and are so far lucky it's 1-1 only. I suspect last season with Chelsea was not an anomaly.

Oh sumptious football by the way.

 

[U99ted]

This season is defined by us not holding onto or extending 1-0 leads.

 

[Zii]

The only way we lose this game is via EXACTLY what jose did. It's ok scoring, making it 2-0 then forcing them to come out and counter attacking, but we don't do that. He gets 1-0 up and instead of getting 2-0 vs a completely shite side we sit back and sit back and boom, 1-0 and suddenly they can win. Utterly disgusting tactics.

I can't lie. I fecking hate the way we play. We don't actually counter attack, we just sit with 10 behind the ball and defend and then act suprised when teams score and we suddenly panic, players getting reds here and there, panicking and just going to shit. It's on Jose, this negative play style breeds panic.

 

[100]

Our last three rounds have been 1 goal marginal wins against Celta Vigo, Anderlecht and FK Rostov