Wayne Rooney - Manchester United Legend

[RedDevil@84]

Consistently good?

Yeah i suppose he wasn't bad for a few years there between 2006-12.

So SAF was blind as feck and forced Rooney into a contract renewal in 2010??

 

[stevoc]

So SAF was blind as feck and forced Rooney into a contract renewal in 2010??

Huh?

 

[RedDevil@84]

Huh?

I misunderstood. Apologies.

 

[stevoc]

I misunderstood. Apologies.

No worries mate.

 

[Rood]

That's the thing though. Even though he is England and Manchester United's all time top scorer it would be fairly difficult to argue that he has been the all-time best player/striker. Rooney has had consistently average seasons with two/three stand-out seasons, and still somehow ended up with scoring the most goals. He's underperformed for England in almost every single major tournament he has played in. He comes nowhere close to matching the influence by some of the other "legends". Charlton and Hurst won a world cup, Lineker shot England into a semi-final while literally shitting himself, Greaves had a ridiculous games to goal ratio, and David Beckham played an extremely vital role in pushing England on in major competitions. Wayne Rooney on the other hand is mostly remembered for being a fantastic youngster in 2004, playing well for Sven, and from then on just being average. The potential he had in 2004 - my god - you could have sworn he would become England's greatest ever player by far. Yet that never happened and he just stuck around in the team long enough to outscore Bobby Charlton.


Now for Manchester United he has been considerably better, but never really the "stand-out" player. He's bee industrious, he's had good seasons and he's had average seasons, but nothing spectacular. In that time he's had plenty of opportunities to prove he's a legend. When Ronaldo left I think everyone hoped he could step up and prove he's one of the best players in the world. In the beginning it looked like he was going to do that, suddenly we have four years of "will he/won't he leave" on our hands, fluctuating performances and a seemingly "unhappy" Wayne Rooney. It came at the worst possible time as well. For years the executive decisions at the club were abysmal, and in that time we really needed our talisman to prove his greatness and lift the club, yet he didn't. With Giggsy, Scholes and Rio all retiring we needed a main-man that could carry Manchester United - carry on the spirit and attitude of the club - and that was supposed to be Wayne Rooney.

It's not his fault that our team fell into tatters, nor are the league positions his fault. It is his fault however that he did not show the stability in performances, attitude and commitment that we desperately needed at the time. Instead he largely became a liability, and a symbol of the "decline". Now, perhaps that is unfair to put on him, but legends aren't just "given" the title cause they stay long enough, they earn it.

Good post - agree completely.
While I tend to focus on his off field issues when giving my reasons for not deeming him a legend, there is clearly a discussion to be had about what he delivered on the pitch as well. His goal stats are clearly unrivalled in our history but I always felt he could have offered more.

He obviously scored a shitload of goals for us and has been an important part of several successful seasons, but he never quite seemed to consistently hit the highs that his natural abilities initially promised.

 

[Alex99]

Not shit, but around the turn of the year 2011-2012 is when I date the beginning of his decline back to. He kept on banging the goals in during the second half of that season, but the quality of his all round performances, and most noticeably his first touch, began to deteriorate. The decline was quite slow but steady after that until the second half of 14/15 which is when his form really started to plummet.

Of course he had that miserable first half of 10/11 which was probably as bad as anything we've seen the last couple of seasons, but he managed to rescue that season after the New Year.

In 2011/12 he scored the second highest number of league goals that anyone has scored for us in the Premier League era. The only player to score more in a single season is Ronaldo, and he was such a freak he fell one short of matching the record for any season, not just a 38 game one.

People like to look at poor starts to a season, or a poor second half, and make out that it's something more than it was, which was a rough patch. Giggs was shite for a while in the early/mid-2000s, but we don't remember that, but he struggled for a bit in the transition from pacey winger to cultured central midfielder.

I just struggle to accept that a man banging in almost record goal tallies in a single season, his highest total for us, was having a poor season.

So why did he sulk and refuse to celebrate with his teammates against Swansea?

I think he'd had a bust up with Fergie, over something that we're unlikely to know unless one fancies penning a book about it. I don't think he wanted to leave United though. I think it's more likely that he was well aware that Fergie didn't have him in his plans for too much longer, and after Fergie announcing his retirement, was worried about his place in the team.

To be honest with you, i kind of stopped reading what you said after you accused everyone who basically disagrees with you a muppet. Guess what, they're not muppets. He doesn't have that emotional connection with the fans or the club, in my opinion, that goes a long way to determining whether a player is a legend or not. It's not the only metric of course, but it's a big part of it. Football is a very emotional game, and the emotional attachment we have for our clubs and the players are a huge part of why we follow it; it's more than just stone cold hard stats.

Also, i really do regret bringing up the contract disputes, to be honest, as it has very little to do with my apathy towards the man. He IS a very divisive figure, and you can disagree with that all you want, but to call me deluded for thinking so, ironically points to you're delusion. You think he's a legend, that's fine, i'm not here to convince you otherwise.

But there are many fans who don't consider him a legend, hence why the question always comes up ad nauseam, and i think that some of their reservation towards him being called one are justified.

I'm also not questioning his desire and professionalism when on the pitch. He had pride in his job, and at his peak he done it exceptionally well, so that's not an issue. Anyway, we're obviously not going to get anywhere. Nothing i will say will convince you (not that i want to), and vice versa.

Maybe delusional muppet was slightly harsh, but I just find it absolutely laughable that anyone could a) call a player who left his boyhood club to play for us for thirteen years, only leaving because he was no longer good enough, a 'mercenary', and b) thinks that a player who spent thirteen years playing for a team, becoming their all-time top goal scorer, winning everything there was to win, and in that time becoming his country's most capped outfield player and their all-time top scorer, has no emotional connection to the fans or the club.

If you don't feel that connection with him yourself, and that's your reason for not considering him a legend, that's perfectly fine. If you can own up and say, "personally, not for me," that's fine. What's ridiculous is the sheer number of people laying out the same few daft excuses, whether that's Nori and his bonkers idea that only one-club-men can be legends, the people who are utterly convinced he was on the brink of signing for City, or the people who've decided a guy who scored 27 league goals in a single season was in the midst of a steep decline.

Regardless of anyone's personal opinions, he's going down in the history books as a Manchester United legend, and a legend of English football, and that's because of everything he's accomplished as a footballer. If you, personally, don't think he belongs on the same tier as Giggs, Scholes, Cantona, whoever, that's fine, as long as you're not hiding behind some dodgy excuse. However, this thread has had very few saying as such.

 

[ManRant]

So why did he sulk and refuse to celebrate with his teammates against Swansea?

Not really sure, but if I remember correctly, he was fouled prior to the goal. Was making his way back up and he did celebrate, just a bit later. This actually was discussed before in CAF.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

I think he'd had a bust up with Fergie, over something that we're unlikely to know unless one fancies penning a book about it. I don't think he wanted to leave United though. I think it's more likely that he was well aware that Fergie didn't have him in his plans for too much longer, and after Fergie announcing his retirement, was worried about his place in the team.

This was Moyes' first game that I'm talking about - in the midst of him apparently wanted to leave. He came on as sub, assisted a goal, but just walked off on his own whilst the rest of the team celebrated. Looked a great deal like a player that was sulking cos he hadn't got what he wanted (i.e. the Chelsea move). A few weeks later, when it was clear that we weren't going to sell him, and with a new contract under his belt he looked much happier.

Not really sure, but if I remember correctly, he was fouled prior to the goal. Was making his way back up and he did celebrate, just a bit later. This actually was discussed before in CAF.

He didn't celebrate with the team for either of the goals that he was on the pitch for. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/17/swansea-manchester-united-premier-league

We can obviously speculate on what the reasons were, but I don't think there's any doubt that he had a cob on about something...

 

[Alex99]

This was Moyes' first game that I'm talking about - in the midst of him apparently wanted to leave. He came on as sub, assisted a goal, but just walked off on his own whilst the rest of the team celebrated. Looked a great deal like a player that was sulking cos he hadn't got what he wanted (i.e. the Chelsea move). A few weeks later, when it was clear that we weren't going to sell him, and with a new contract under his belt he looked much happier.



He didn't celebrate with the team for either of the goals that he was on the pitch for. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/17/swansea-manchester-united-premier-league

We can obviously speculate on what the reasons were, but I don't think there's any doubt that he had a cob on about something...

Oh yeah.

Moyes implemented a chip ban, remember?

Seriously though, I think it was just him having issues about his future at the club. When there were clear signs that you were being phased out of the team the season before, and now a club is coming in making offers for you, I can imagine it'd have been very easy for someone to convince him, or convince himself, that United were going to give him the boot soon.

We may have seen similar with De Gea had van Gaal not decided to drop him until the window was over, but we didn't so no one cares.

 

[2cents]

In 2011/12 he scored the second highest number of league goals that anyone has scored for us in the Premier League era. The only player to score more in a single season is Ronaldo, and he was such a freak he fell one short of matching the record for any season, not just a 38 game one.

People like to look at poor starts to a season, or a poor second half, and make out that it's something more than it was, which was a rough patch. Giggs was shite for a while in the early/mid-2000s, but we don't remember that, but he struggled for a bit in the transition from pacey winger to cultured central midfielder.

I just struggle to accept that a man banging in almost record goal tallies in a single season, his highest total for us, was having a poor season.

Never said 11/12 was a poor season from him - the goals (which I acknowledged) ensured that it was an excellent season overall from him. At the same time, the goals tended to cover for some increasingly poor general play as that season wore on - the first real signs of decline IMO. And while Rooney did have some good patches of form after that season, I can't ignore that the general trajectory of the overall quality of his play was downhill, season after season from then. For a few seasons (12/13 - roughly middle of 14/15) it was still enough to make him a quality PL forward, albeit never a contender in any serious discussion of the very best in the league.

 

[Alex99]

Never said 11/12 was a poor season from him - the goals (which I acknowledged) ensured that it was an excellent season overall from him. At the same time, the goals tended to cover for some increasingly poor general play as that season wore on - the first real signs of decline IMO. And while Rooney did have some good patches of form after that season, I can't ignore that the general trajectory of the overall quality of his play was downhill, season after season from then. For a few seasons (12/13 - roughly middle of 14/15) it was still enough to make him a quality PL forward, albeit never a contender in any serious discussion of the very best in the league.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Seriously though, I think it was just him having issues about his future at the club. When there were clear signs that you were being phased out of the team the season before, and now a club is coming in making offers for you, I can imagine it'd have been very easy for someone to convince him, or convince himself, that United were going to give him the boot soon.

Well, maybe - although surely Moyes would have spoken to him over the summer and reassured him? From an outsiders perspective apart from Fergie saying what he did at the end of the previous season it always seemed pretty clear that the club were determined to keep him - the size of the contract that we gave him shows how highly we valued him at the time.

I think you're looking for excuses for him, but there's really no need - it's perfectly possible to view him as a legend and massively appreciate his contribution to this club over many years, but also think that on a number of occasions he behaved in a mercenary manner. The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[RedPnutz]

Yes, he doubted the best manager there was and he undermined the club's ambition to get a better contract.

Yes, his decline was very rapid and it became a liability towards the end.

But gave his best years to the club, won us many trophies and became the highest scorer of the club.

His achievements are clear and he will be a significant part of the club's history. No doubt a legend for us.

 

[BusbyMalone]

In 2011/12 he scored the second highest number of league goals that anyone has scored for us in the Premier League era. The only player to score more in a single season is Ronaldo, and he was such a freak he fell one short of matching the record for any season, not just a 38 game one.

People like to look at poor starts to a season, or a poor second half, and make out that it's something more than it was, which was a rough patch. Giggs was shite for a while in the early/mid-2000s, but we don't remember that, but he struggled for a bit in the transition from pacey winger to cultured central midfielder.

I just struggle to accept that a man banging in almost record goal tallies in a single season, his highest total for us, was having a poor season.



I think he'd had a bust up with Fergie, over something that we're unlikely to know unless one fancies penning a book about it. I don't think he wanted to leave United though. I think it's more likely that he was well aware that Fergie didn't have him in his plans for too much longer, and after Fergie announcing his retirement, was worried about his place in the team.



Maybe delusional muppet was slightly harsh, but I just find it absolutely laughable that anyone could a) call a player who left his boyhood club to play for us for thirteen years, only leaving because he was no longer good enough, a 'mercenary', and b) thinks that a player who spent thirteen years playing for a team, becoming their all-time top goal scorer, winning everything there was to win, and in that time becoming his country's most capped outfield player and their all-time top scorer, has no emotional connection to the fans or the club.

If you don't feel that connection with him yourself, and that's your reason for not considering him a legend, that's perfectly fine. If you can own up and say, "personally, not for me," that's fine. What's ridiculous is the sheer number of people laying out the same few daft excuses, whether that's Nori and his bonkers idea that only one-club-men can be legends, the people who are utterly convinced he was on the brink of signing for City, or the people who've decided a guy who scored 27 league goals in a single season was in the midst of a steep decline.

Regardless of anyone's personal opinions, he's going down in the history books as a Manchester United legend, and a legend of English football, and that's because of everything he's accomplished as a footballer. If you, personally, don't think he belongs on the same tier as Giggs, Scholes, Cantona, whoever, that's fine, as long as you're not hiding behind some dodgy excuse. However, this thread has had very few saying as such.

Well of course it's my personal opinion. What else would it be? Just like it's your personal opinion that he's a legend. I'm not speaking for the whole United fan base, just as you aren't. Again, your just throwing stats at me "thirteen years", "all time top goal scorer". Yeah, i'm aware, he was a phenomenal player; there's no disputing that.

Perhaps the use of the word "mercenary" was a bit of a misnomer. I was just trying to convey the fact that i believed he treated being a Man Utd player purely as a job.

In terms of the emotional connection (or lack thereof), it's definitely there amongst a considerable number of supporters. Hence why the question is always asked; why's there's always articles and discussions about why Rooney isn't more loved or appreciated as a player. Also, the slightly muted response to him leaving the other day. It's for a reason. It's definitely there, and it's a genuine thing. I would also point to his rather insipid post on Instagram the other day. For someone who's been here for so long, who purportedly has a strong passion for the club and its fans etc., it certainly didn't come off that way. In fact, i would say Lukaku's farewell post was much more effusive towards a club that was clearly being used as a stepping stone.

Anyway, we're going over the same points time after time here. We clearly don't see eye to eye, and that's fine, i just don't like the fact that the people who don't believe he should have legendary status should be dismissed as being laughable or delusional. They're not.

 

[Sky1981]

Top 10 united legend

Best
Charlton
Robson
Cantona
Ronaldo (for bpitw)
Keane
Giggs
Scholes
Gary neville
Wayne Rooney

 

[The Argentinean]

Do you think there will be a stand named after him in the future? He was the face of the club for more than a decade and has the top scorer record. That should be enough merit to warrant a Wayne Rooney Stand, right?

 

[Real Madras]

Top 10 united legend

Best
Charlton
Robson
Cantona
Ronaldo (for bpitw)
Keane
Giggs
Scholes
Gary neville
Wayne Rooney

I agree with this list.

On another note, I'd add Ed Woodward to that list if he can bring in another two of Mourinhos targets

 

[Rood]

Do you think there will be a stand named after him in the future? He was the face of the club for more than a decade and has the top scorer record. That should be enough merit to warrant a Wayne Rooney Stand, right?

No chance !

Realistically there is only one stand left to name anyway as I doubt they will change the Stretford End

TBH I don't think any recent player is worthy of a stand, but someone like Giggs will surely be higher on the list than Rooney if they ever did.

 

[POF]

No chance !

Realistically there is only one stand left to name anyway as I doubt they will change the Stretford End

TBH I don't think any recent player is worthy of a stand, but someone like Giggs will surely be higher on the list than Rooney if they ever did.

The Stretford End would be very fitting for Rooney. Paul (Stretford) is one of the main reasons he isn't universally considered a United legend.

 

[Catt]

Rooney not being part of United anymore feels a little bit strange. He was already at the club when I started following closely.

 

[Born2Lose]

Do you think there will be a stand named after him in the future? He was the face of the club for more than a decade and has the top scorer record. That should be enough merit to warrant a Wayne Rooney Stand, right?

Great idea, we could even get it sponsored by Pot Noodle.

 

[markhrad]

Top 10 united legend

Best
Charlton
Robson
Cantona
Ronaldo (for bpitw)
Keane
Giggs
Scholes
Gary neville
Wayne Rooney

I would add Law, after all he is a Ballon d'Or winner just like Best and Charlton and his statue stands along with theirs.
To me a top legend for a top club like ours should at least at one time be considered the best in Europe if not the world.

 

[Jaybomb]

Top 10 united legend

Best
Charlton
Robson
Cantona
Ronaldo (for bpitw)
Keane
Giggs
Scholes
Gary neville
Wayne Rooney

You're missing a ton of old legends there like Violett and Law.

Neville is our best RB without a doubt but not sure if he's a "top 10 legend".

Beckham, Vidic, Evra, Rio, Schmeichel, Van Der Sar and Van Nistelrooy.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Do you think there will be a stand named after him in the future? He was the face of the club for more than a decade and has the top scorer record. That should be enough merit to warrant a Wayne Rooney Stand, right?

No, and no.

 

[efraim]

What's your favorite season from Rooney? I see a lot of people mention the 2009/2010 season was when Rooney was at his best, but in the 2011/2012 season he managed exactly as many goals in one less game and no one hardly talks about that season. Was is it in 2011 his decline started?

 

[Red Dreams]

Top 10 united legend

Best
Charlton
Robson
Cantona
Ronaldo (for bpitw)
Keane
Giggs
Scholes
Gary neville
Wayne Rooney

what. No Law?

 

[2cents]

What's your favorite season from Rooney? I see a lot of people mention the 2009/2010 season was when Rooney was at his best, but in the 2011/2012 season he managed exactly as many goals in one less game and no one hardly talks about that season. Was is it in 2011 his decline started?

He just wasn't as good in 11/12, his touch began to desert him but he was very clinical. Much preferred 09/10.

 

[Mockney]

I think you've got to put Schmeichel on any legends list, 'cos if he doesn't cut it, you're basically saying no keeper ever can.

 

[Sky1981]

what. No Law?

If i put law and schmikes there guess who's getting the cut?

Rooney wont make my top 10 list...

 

[efraim]

He just wasn't as good in 11/12, his touch began to desert him but he was very clinical. Much preferred 09/10.

Ah, so in 2011 he started losing his pace and stamina, but was his overall play worse? Would you say the 11/12 season was his second best season?

 

[2cents]

Ah, so in 2011 he started losing his pace and stamina, but was his overall play worse? Would you say the 11/12 season was his second best season?

Taken as a full season it probably was IMO, but I think he hit greater heights at times during earlier campaigns (leaving 09/10 aside), just not consistently over the full course - the 10/11 run-in and parts of early and late 08/09.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

09/10 He was magnificent. His all round game was superb, I think that was absolute peak Rooney.

11/12 he was very clinical and scored a shit ton of goals and against the big boys too. He scored home and away against Chelsea that season, hat trick against Arsenal, double against Liverpool, double away to City in the Cup, home and away against Spurs. In the big games he unarguably delivered.

However I don't think his all round game was anywhere near as good as it was in 09/10. 11/12 was when I first remember noticing Rooney's knack for scoring or assisting goals to mask poor performances. There was one game against Villa where he scored 2 and yet was maybe the worst Utd player on the pitch.

 

[shaggy]

09/10 He was magnificent. His all round game was superb, I think that was absolute peak Rooney.

11/12 he was very clinical and scored a shit ton of goals and against the big boys too. He scored home and away against Chelsea that season, hat trick against Arsenal, double against Liverpool, double away to City in the Cup, home and away against Spurs. In the big games he unarguably delivered.

However I don't think his all round game was anywhere near as good as it was in 09/10. 11/12 was when I first remember noticing Rooney's knack for scoring or assisting goals to mask poor performances. There was one game against Villa where he scored 2 and yet was maybe the worst Utd player on the pitch.

Bang on. After 11/12 he went into terminal decline despite some good runs here and there.

 

[Dobbs]

Madrid away 12/13 was confirmation that he'd dropped a level. Just physically he didn't belong in a game of that standard. Mind you playing him right midfield/fullback didn't help.

 

[Red Dreams]

If i put law and schmikes there guess who's getting the cut?

Rooney wont make my top 10 list...

Rooney was a far more important player than Gary Neville.

And Law was certainly more important than both.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

What's your favorite season from Rooney? I see a lot of people mention the 2009/2010 season was when Rooney was at his best, but in the 2011/2012 season he managed exactly as many goals in one less game and no one hardly talks about that season. Was is it in 2011 his decline started?

Most favorite? Season 2006-7 for me.

Delighted with all his seasons with us, some are fun, some are interesting, it have been a wonderful journey.

2004-2006,
Kid Rooney #8 - fire, mental, drive, wild, impressive, force, fun to watch him developing and maturing.

2006-2007,
Matured Rooney #8 - Teamwork, teamplays, good temperament, entertaining, all-around team performances, great combos moves with everyone, matured performances, good partnership with Ronaldo.

2007-2009,
Teamplayer Rooney #10 - Injuries, sacrifice for team, with Tevez second fiddle to Ronaldo, defensive works, left wing.

2009-2010,
Star Rooney #10 - Became our best player. Our main man, carry and lead our team well. Goals and all-around individual great performances. Consistently that good. Finesse. For sure, Rooney at his peak. His best season by far.

2010-2014,
Ego Rooney #10 - Goals scoring. Top level lethal finisher and highly effective football player. Good all-around consistent performances.

2014-2017,
Captain Rooney #10 - Goal scoring. Still score important goals. Okay overall performances. General Performances and physicality gradually diminishing. Finishing at the end turning to inconsistencies.

 

[prath92]

09/10 He was magnificent. His all round game was superb, I think that was absolute peak Rooney.

11/12 he was very clinical and scored a shit ton of goals and against the big boys too. He scored home and away against Chelsea that season, hat trick against Arsenal, double against Liverpool, double away to City in the Cup, home and away against Spurs. In the big games he unarguably delivered.

However I don't think his all round game was anywhere near as good as it was in 09/10. 11/12 was when I first remember noticing Rooney's knack for scoring or assisting goals to mask poor performances. There was one game against Villa where he scored 2 and yet was maybe the worst Utd player on the pitch.

Masking a poor performance with a goal is something that a lot of people have been blamed for. Even ronaldo often gets the blame that scoring goals aside he doesn't do anything for the team

 

[ken11]

Started watching all his goals scored in his career. He was one hell of a player.

 

[Sylar]

We need 'Rooney watch'
Scored a 30 yard screamer for Everton in his first game back (friendly)

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We need 'Rooney watch'
Scored a 30 yard screamer for Everton in his first game back (friendly)

Cracking finish.