Lingard: RedCafe Enemy #1?

[Yagami]

I like the guy himself and appreciate what he tries to bring to the team but he just isn't good enough in my opinion. Not even as a squad player. Like Fletcher, Welbeck and Park were used to press opponents and put in a huge shift but, along with doing them roles very well, they were decent footballers, too. They could contribute to the teams actual attack and general play. Welbeck wasn't prolific for us by any means in 12/13, but he had his moments. He was probably our best player over the two legs against Madrid, though Giggs in the 2nd was rolling back the years. Lingard, even though he moves around a lot, and tries to move the ball quickly and has some moments of link-up play, just doesn't do anything to a decent enough level to warrant being in the team. He's scored in a couple of finals which is of course great and, as a result, will always cause a lot of United fans to remember him fondly once his time here is up, but is that enough considering he offers so little over the course of the seasons entirety?

Before he debuted for us I was very much for him getting a shot because I thought he deserved it and would prove a good option. His first few games on the left I thought he was decent - running at players, showing confidence, nice shots, but it didn't last long. It's been over a year now and he hasn't improved at all. I'm hoping he improves big time this year because we know José's a fan of what he brings to the table.

 

[Minimalist]

Hating him as a person, no. Hating him based on his ability is justified.

Basically this.

 

[laughtersassassin]

You don't watch cup finals?

Ive never seen a player whos argument on if they are good enough to start for us depends on a few goals he scored in finals.

You really a player that scores than 5 league goals a season means he should start. Standards dropping.

 

[Member 5225]

Managers can also make wrong decisions, which is why van Gaal was sacked and Jose finished 6th (and I am a fan of Jose, btw).

The club is based on winning. We are not a crèche for developing kids. The kids will get a chance automatically if they have world class potential.

haha fantastically said! A crèche!

 

[Member 5225]

Lads taken Rooneys crown. Someone needs to the one who gets blamed for everything, or that's how a lot on the Caf go on. Season not even started and the moaners are seeking out targets.

Not entirely true - no big scrape goat or complaints when we got to 2 CL finals in a row. We loved the high quality side with no passengers.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Ive never seen a player whos argument on if they are good enough to start for us depends on a few goals he scored in finals.

You really a player that scores than 5 league goals a season means he should start. Standards dropping.

I didn't say he was good enough to start for us. You said he never scores. Factually incorrect. He has scored some very important goals for us.

 

[red thru&thru]

What a load of rubbish.....The club is based on winning titles and being competative against the best teams in europe,preferably with as many youth players who are good enough to achive that,lingard isnt good enough....We mayswel play the u18s and never sign anybody,then when we never win anythin you real fans can celebrate that at least we'r doin it the manchester united way.
Van gaal...The guy who had phil jones taking corners?? He was a top manager years ago,not with us,the bloke didnt know what day it was by the time we got him

So what's your opinion on Jose, if LVG didn't have a clue?

Our club indeed is based on winning. As you clearly no so much about our club, could you please list the successful periods of our club & the players within that period? If you do, you'll notice hoe many of our youth players are included in that.

Of course Jesse isn't a "World Class" player. However, he is a "Manchester United" player. A player I put alongside the likes Butt, P. Neville, O'Shea, Fletcher etc. I'd go further back a little but I doubt you would know those players.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I didn't say he was good enough to start for us. You said he never scores. Factually incorrect. He has scored some very important goals for us.

Well he doesn't really score all that much, to be fair and constantly brining up cup final goals and that cross against WBA is pretty tiresome.

 

[red thru&thru]

This is the biggest load of tripe on here, he's a poor player and during the 54 years of supporting this club he is easily the worst player we've had with over 50 starts, so no I"m not a plastic fan and I do know a good player when I see one . No amount of pretending that running round like a headless chicken cancels out his lack of ability just because he's a local lad . Love to have local lads in the team but they have to be able to play football at a reasonable level as expected by United first.

Just as well no manager ever makes a mistake, he'll be found out eventually but now we've got a player with little ability on a high wage that no other club is remotely interested in.
I don't hate him as a person, just don't want him anywhere near the team.

Fantastic on your longevity on supporting the club. However, making statements such as, "he's the worst player we've had with over 50 starts", is very over the top, in my opinion! I'm not going to pretend and say he'd be the first name on the team sheet. However, he's one of our own. He has been winning titles with our club. He's been an important member of our club.

So the question I'd like answeing is, why is he Enemy #1 in our club? People believe this tripe that Manchester United have always had teams full of world class players in their squads. That is just simply not true.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

He's basically the embodiment of everything that is bad with Jose in a footballer and that is what people I think find frustrating. Nothing wrong with him being a squaddie. He is a great squad player.

But he just emphasise all the bad attributes of Jose as manager.

 

[kopviolator]

Love to have him. Martial and Mkhi were piss poor the better half of last season by the way, since some insist they should be playing.

 

[Litch]

Big goals that have equalled trophies. I think it's more how he's used and until we get a upgraded version of him, nobody does what he does. If I was a manager and you look at the trophy cabinet knowing he's a good reason why they are there, it's hard to argue with. Cups save seasons (and jobs) when league campaigns have been poor.

 

[red thru&thru]

Love to have him. Martial and Mkhi were piss poor the better half of last season by the way, since some insist they should be playing.

Exactly. No many are saying he's an automatic starter, however, he was a lot better than others in his position in the last few season.

 

[Litch]

He's basically the embodiment of everything that is bad with Jose in a footballer and that is what people I think find frustrating. Nothing wrong with him being a squaddie. He is a great squad player.

But he just emphasise all the bad attributes of Jose as manager.

I hear you but if a manager has been soooo successful, those blind spots are less significant.

 

[Robbie Boy]

So the question I'd like answeing is, why is he Enemy #1 in our club? People believe this tripe that Manchester United have always had teams full of world class players in their squads. That is just simply not true.

He's not an enemy, what are you on about Christ, just because the OP decided to make a dramatic thread with a dramatic thread title doesn't make it an actual thing.

And I have yet to ever see one person suggest we should have a 'squad full of superstars' and yet it gets dragged out during every Lingard debate and is a-bit of a straw man really. Also, there's a middle ground between Lingard and a 'superstar' player, just saying like.

 

[Robbie Boy]

@horsechoker Your thread worked just as you intended and as predicted

 

[TimScoreboard]

People are frustrated that like Fellaini before him, Lingard is at best a squad player but he is keeping far more talented players like Miki and Martial out of the team because of his workrate.

But that says as much about Miki and Martial last season, as it does about Jess' and Jose... work-rate in a Jose team, is a must and lets be honest... it's probably the one discipline that all our players can achieve; so the fact that weren't putting in enough effort, reflects badly on them. If they match the effort of the likes of Jess,' then their ability should ensure they are picked.
Talent without effort isn't enough under Jose, so it's not rocket science for a player to work out what he has to do to be in the first team; so do it.

 

[King_Cantona07]

No personnel hate against lingard but as a player not enough quality and doesn't fit in at united. Fans turn against him when better players are benched for his hard working nature in field which is a blame for manager in real than player.

 

[red thru&thru]

He's not an enemy, what are you on about Christ, just because the OP decided to make a dramatic thread with a dramatic thread title doesn't make it an actual thing.

And I have yet to ever see one person suggest we should have a 'squad full of superstars' and yet it gets dragged out during every Lingard debate and is a-bit of a straw man really. Also, there's a middle ground between Lingard and a 'superstar' player, just saying like.

I'm asking the question from the OP, that's what I'm on about!

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I hear you but if a manager has been soooo successful, those blind spots are less significant.

I think for me United should be held to a higher standard than just winning. The true elite Barca,Real and Bayern wouldn't settle for his tactics and we shouldn't either. Anyway it's done now, so might as well strap in and try and enjoy hard work and discipline over the anything could happen.

 

[Ødegaard]

I've "fallen in love" with Lingard the public persona & United supporter, and his story up until where he is.

Still cannot stand the idea of him being close to our fist eleven.

Same can be said for Fellaini.
The way he puts his head down and plays to the managers instructions, and gives it his all despite our lack of support shows he is a proper professional, one personality I'm very happy to have at the club. The player however I don't want to be in the first 11.

Neither seem to be bitching when they aren't starting though, so I suppose the anger and frustration should be aimed at the manager(s) & recruiters, but we're only human;
Being sensible and rational all the time isn't exactly our forte, it certainly ain't mine.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I'm asking the question from the OP, that's what I'm on about!

Lingard: Enemy Of The State!

 

[J-Stander]

Neither seem to be bitching when they aren't starting though, so I suppose the anger and frustration should be aimed at the manager(s) & recruiters, but we're only human;
Being sensible and rational all the time isn't exactly our forte, it certainly ain't mine.

Because he's on 100k a week and probably wouldn't start for 18 out of the 20 clubs in the league.

 

[Hullyback]

I'm unbiased and I think he's bang average, as mediocre as mediocre can be.

I put him in the same bracket as Cleverly whereby it's puzzling how he gets so much game time for a massive club. Could liken him to Lucas at Liverpool. Another one that played way too many games purely based on workrate and dependability.

If Liverpool were facing United today, I'd much much MUCH rather see Lingard on the teamsheet than Mkhi or Rashford/Martial. And that says it all.

 

[Ødegaard]

Because he's on 100k a week and probably wouldn't start for 18 out of the 20 clubs in the league.

Possibly true, but at the same time, money is just part of the package for footballers.
Fellaini and Lingard might not earn as much elsewhere, but they are still being professionals by doing the job without the adoration that many of their colleagues get, and that they could have gotten elsewhere.

Mind, I'm not trying to praise them for "doing their job", merely commenting that they aren't at fault for playing so often. That's down to the manager picking them and recruiters not being able to get better players in.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I'm unbiased and I think he's bang average, as mediocre as mediocre can be.

I put him in the same bracket as Cleverly whereby it's puzzling how he gets so much game time for a massive club. Could liken him to Lucas at Liverpool. Another one that played way too many games purely based on workrate and dependability.

If Liverpool were facing United today, I'd much much MUCH rather see Lingard on the teamsheet than Mkhi or Rashford/Martial. And that says it all.

That's being kind from a rival fan. The rival fans I know think he's absolutely shocking.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Fantastic on your longevity on supporting the club. However, making statements such as, "he's the worst player we've had with over 50 starts", is very over the top, in my opinion! I'm not going to pretend and say he'd be the first name on the team sheet. However, he's one of our own. He has been winning titles with our club. He's been an important member of our club.

So the question I'd like answeing is, why is he Enemy #1 in our club? People believe this tripe that Manchester United have always had teams full of world class players in their squads. That is just simply not true.

I can't think of a player who's started so many games that has played for us even during the leanest years in the 70s and 80s, yes there have been some worse players but most of them made many fewer appearances and were moved on. Hundreds have come through the academy and many didn't make it , it's just a fact of life.

I've never said that the team has world class players in every position and we never have had that, there are always a few very good or better players and the rest are good first teamers or quite good squad players. I'm sorry to say he's not at even the quite good squad player level and definitely nowhere near a regular starter level which he has been for some time.

Of the current crop of players who play his "position", which even his ardent followers have yet to decide what it is, Rashford, Martial, Mata, Mkhi etc are all better quality and I have no particular favourite but they should all start ahead of him.
Yes he scored against Palace and Southampton but other players did as well and other players did in the past and will in the future, it doesn't give him a divine right to start and not get criticised. If he played say 5 or 6 good games out of 10 he wouldn't get the criticism he does but his good games are less than a handful a season and he starts over and over again when better players don't get the leeway he does. This is why he is so disliked by a lot of people.

One argument we often hear supporting him is that he runs to create space for others, even if this was the case, why can't we play with a player who does that and have a good amount of football skill as well.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Some good sensible posts on here, and ones Lingard apologists probably don't want to read.

As someone who is critical about Lingard, I must say that it's not personal against the guy. I like to see local lads in the team and he clearly loves the club. But if that's the criteria for being a starter at the club these days then we can forget ever being at the Top again.

I'm surprised so many of our fans are now willing to accept mediocrity. But I feel with Lingard that some people support him because it makes them more of a t0p red in their own mind, which is a load of crap.

Now I'll speak on his ability as a player. He is nowhere near good enough to be regularly starting games as much as he does. As a club built on attacking principles we have seen so much quality and flair over the years, and now we have a winger playing who scores one league goal a season it's just sad. When I walk up those stairs at OT and see his name on the team sheet my heart does sink a little I won't lie. When you look at other teams in the Premier League, how many of those would he start in? Not many would be most peoples answers, and that says it all.

With that being said, if he was just a squad player I'd probably be happy with that. I do think he is better centrally and for games like the league cup, early rounds of FA cup he would be great starting those. But in the most crucial games of the season, absolutely not.

 

[MeUnited]

Because he's rubbish. Barely good enough to be a squad player, JSP was twice the player, but he doesn't even play a squad player role. Plays far too much and he's useless.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

The only thing he is good at is running around and backtracking which seems to be the criteria for making it to the Utd XI these days.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Love to have him. Martial and Mkhi were piss poor the better half of last season by the way, since some insist they should be playing.

Yeah but martial and mkhi being poor is better than lingard. They contribute more goals and assists and as i keep saying our biggest problem last season was scoring.

 

[11101]

That's rubbish mate. You don't need high education levels to know about football and to be a good manager and tactician. It also helps massively to have been part of the game for years, as a player, playing under different managers, with different teammates, being in all kinds of situations and having relevant experience and knowledge about what works and what doesn't work. Much harder to learn all that from the TV or in a class room. It's a highly specialized line of work. General education means close to feck all.

I think most people here that have spent a few thousand hours on a pitch would agree.

I disagree, and i have spent a few thousand hours on a pitch with various levels of players and coaching. You don't need high education levels but you also don't need playing experience - look at Mourinho. Study it as a vocation and there is no reason an average joe cant become a successful football manager, other than the fact its a closed door to anyone who hasn't played.

 

[Hullyback]

Some good sensible posts on here, and ones Lingard apologists probably don't want to read.

As someone who is critical about Lingard, I must say that it's not personal against the guy. I like to see local lads in the team and he clearly loves the club. But if that's the criteria for being a starter at the club these days then we can forget ever being at the Top again.

I'm surprised so many of our fans are now willing to accept mediocrity. But I feel with Lingard that some people support him because it makes them more of a t0p red in their own mind, which is a load of crap.

Now I'll speak on his ability as a player. He is nowhere near good enough to be regularly starting games as much as he does. As a club built on attacking principles we have seen so much quality and flair over the years, and now we have a winger playing who scores one league goal a season it's just sad. When I walk up those stairs at OT and see his name on the team sheet my heart does sink a little I won't lie. When you look at other teams in the Premier League, how many of those would he start in? Not many would be most peoples answers, and that says it all.

With that being said, if he was just a squad player I'd probably be happy with that. I do think he is better centrally and for games like the league cup, early rounds of FA cup he would be great starting those. But in the most crucial games of the season, absolutely not.

Flanagan is one for Liverpool. Fellow Liverpool fans massively overrate him cos he's a local boy. Foregoing the fact he's actually pretty garbage because he gives his all and tries his best. If trying your hardest and being a Scouser means you get looked over when you play badly they might as well sign up Sporty Spice.

Probably still a better left back than Moreno.

 

[whatwha]

Lingard being on £100k per week is a crime against humanity. Meanwhile Carvajal and Marcelo bring in €60k and €80k.

 

[Litch]

Every team has one....Real Madrid forums will all be moaning about a player.

 

[An Irish Red]

Every couple of years we have some bang average youth product getting games that they don't deserve; their defenders claim that they deserve it and we just can't see what they bring to the team.

Then managers eventually catch on to how awful they are and they end up playing for a relegation outfit. Lingard is the new version of this.

 

[red thru&thru]

I can't think of a player who's started so many games that has played for us even during the leanest years in the 70s and 80s, yes there have been some worse players but most of them made many fewer appearances and were moved on. Hundreds have come through the academy and many didn't make it , it's just a fact of life.

I've never said that the team has world class players in every position and we never have had that, there are always a few very good or better players and the rest are good first teamers or quite good squad players. I'm sorry to say he's not at even the quite good squad player level and definitely nowhere near a regular starter level which he has been for some time.

Of the current crop of players who play his "position", which even his ardent followers have yet to decide what it is, Rashford, Martial, Mata, Mkhi etc are all better quality and I have no particular favourite but they should all start ahead of him.
Yes he scored against Palace and Southampton but other players did as well and other players did in the past and will in the future, it doesn't give him a divine right to start and not get criticised. If he played say 5 or 6 good games out of 10 he wouldn't get the criticism he does but his good games are less than a handful a season and he starts over and over again when better players don't get the leeway he does. This is why he is so disliked by a lot of people.

One argument we often hear supporting him is that he runs to create space for others, even if this was the case, why can't we play with a player who does that and have a good amount of football skill as well.

Like I say, he's a good squad player. It isn't his fault that the more naturally talented players in his point, haven't taken the starting berth.

If people really don't like him playing, vent your frustration at the managers who pick him. If he's in the team, we should support him. For me, that's the bare minimum that should be expected from the supporters.

 

[Viral United]

If playing more games is issue then Hate should be on Jose not on Lingard, or should be on Martial and Miki.
I love to see Martial as starter but just because you are good prospect you should not automatically starter.
I trust what Jose select, if he is okay with Lingard (though I don't agree) I don't have problem.
Its may be possible Jose making mistake but when you trust your Manager you have to trust his decision.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Well he doesn't really score all that much, to be fair and constantly brining up cup final goals and that cross against WBA is pretty tiresome.

I didn't say he scores that often. I brought up his cup final goals (the only time I've done so) because that person said he never scores, which is obviously not true.

I have no idea what cross you're talking about.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Like I say, he's a good squad player. It isn't his fault that the more naturally talented players in his point, haven't taken the starting berth.

If people really don't like him playing, vent your frustration at the managers who pick him. If he's in the team, we should support him. For me, that's the bare minimum that should be expected from the supporters.

Some of the other players haven't played to their ability, accepted, but even at their below par level they produce and offer more than Lingard. However, Lingard week in , week out produces poor performances but continues to get picked whether he performs or not, the others have one poor match and lose their place.
The expectations of the others are higher but that shouldn't mean that the default choice is Lingard, this is the biggest gripe of most people.

I think all United fans would be over the moon if Lingard produces consistently good performances but it never has been the case and highly unlikely it ever will be the case and like others I want United to be successful but my heart sinks every time he's in the starting line-up. I don't have favourite players that I want to lead us to victory , I don't care which of them does it but if he plays as often as he has during the last two seasons we are not going to be challenging for the title this season and at this point in time this is the most important thing for the club.