Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[Red Dreams]

What else would it be?

some sort of home rule. short of independence.

 

[DOTA]

some sort of home rule. short of independence.

Ahh. No, I think they want independence.

 

[Nikhil]

They should stay together. Every region should be prosperous. It will be better for Spain. Beautiful country. Europe has a lot of problems now.

 

[barros]

Thanks for this very good explanation. I asked this because listening to galician it sounds very similar to portuguese.

I do understand Galician really well but not Spanish when I lived in Portugal, now I understand Spanish if they don’t talk too fast because I worked with so many Hispanics and my nephew is from Guatemala (he speaks better English than Spanish)

 

[barros]

When it comes to many Kurds in Turkey, it's more like, "we want a divorce and to keep all of the good things that we already have today from the Turkish state - like free utilities, education, etc. - to stay as they are."

They know how to dream, I'll give them that.

Can you tell me if the Kurds in Turkey moved there or was occupied by Turkey? Honest question I know you guys in the past used to beat the shit of everyone around but I really don’t know much about their history.

 

[barros]

Most industry % in spain, most tourism % in spain, 56% of the startup investment, 1/3 of the spanish exports, +20% of GDP of Spain...and we are 6% of the territory and 15% of population. Economically speaking we undoubtly can

But you understand everything would be different, is like some people say about California if they separate from US they would be one of the richest countries in the world but is not true when all the main industry would move to another state because they are US companies and if they stay in California then they would lose the US market. Catalonia would suffer a bit in the first years and only with the help of Europe they would be able to survive, remember they will have to finance defense, etc. But I would prefer to have Portugal in complete misery than be part of Spain so I do understand you.

 

[barros]

There is quite a strong Galicia independence movement, right?

Sweet... Portugal is going to be bigger

 

[barros]

4bars, there are people voting several times. There is zero control about the situation. Anyway, enough of reproaches. I think that you have a fight with Madrid and you have extended it to all Spain.
I do not like la guardia civil having to act, but I like less to see how the mossos who has sworn loyalty to the state, are not defending the law.
Sincerely, I hope that everything is solved and that things change for the better.

I think if your government let them vote officially the NO would win but with all this drama and now with all the international media showing older people bleeding after they were attacked by pro-militar police I’m not sure.

 

[Paxi]

With this referendum, where does this leave the Basque? They’ve wanted independence for years and going as far as having their own terrorist group.

 

[barros]

The media coverage about this in Portugal has been practically non existent. It doesn't surprise with TVI since they are owned by a spanish company but in what regards the rest, it seems like we are deliberatly ignoring this. I know we also have local elections but it looks like there are instructions and our media outlets are being pressured or influenced not to cover this.

Portugal needs Spain and if the people start making noises then we never know like you don’t know our politicians even if Spain killed thousands of people they probably would be talking about the last trump’s tweets

 

[barros]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[barros]

Shocking. They were doing nothing.

Now I know were the American police hire their instructors

 

[barros]

Wold be a massacre...no insurgency afterwards. There is no guns in Spain, I never seen one beside the police. There is not that kind of mentality. Would never happen like yougoslavia

That’s why US has the second amendment

 

[Globule]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

so this is purely to get Madrid to listen to them?

Why is Chris Evans trying to vote?

 

[FCBarca]

General strike throughout Catalunya on Tuesday with demonstrations to continue today

Proud of my Catalan brothers & sisters, I expected nothing less - Visca Catalunya!

 

[4bars]

But you understand everything would be different, is like some people say about California if they separate from US they would be one of the richest countries in the world but is not true when all the main industry would move to another state because they are US companies and if they stay in California then they would lose the US market. Catalonia would suffer a bit in the first years and only with the help of Europe they would be able to survive, remember they will have to finance defense, etc. But I would prefer to have Portugal in complete misery than be part of Spain so I do understand you.

Of course it would be difficult, as what you said, especially the beginning. But the potential is totally there. Then it would depend of how well we would move internationally. I believe we have very competent people (or I like to believe), anyway we would maybe not be that wealthy, but I am sure we would be in a decent economic position

 

[4bars]

That’s why US has the second amendment

And that is why I would not like it having it here, Guns or no guns, if you put the army to fight the USA people would not stand a chance. It made sends in the musketss time, not now.

Anyway, I prefer to remain in Spain than spill blood, in any side

 

[rcoobc]

So if Catalonia becomes an independent state, are they going to have their own league ?

Not with Barca in it. Barce have often said they'd stay on La Liga

 

[4bars]

Not with Barca in it. Barce have often said they'd stay on La Liga

barcelona don´t have a saying. Laliga would kick catalan teams Barcelona included.

It would be a Catalan league with Barcelona with way less money, so tops, they would reach europa league (to play, not to win it)

 

[Revan]

barcelona don´t have a saying. Laliga would kick catalan teams Barcelona included.

It would be a Catalan league with Barcelona with way less money, so tops, they would reach europa league (to play, not to win it)

La Liga would suffer a lot without Barca, too. They would become an another French League. They would probably like to keep Barca there.

 

[4bars]

La Liga would suffer a lot without Barca, too. They would become an another French League. They would probably like to keep Barca there.

No way, with atletico, sevilla and Valencia...Laliga had only 2 catalan teams regulary, Barcelona and Espanyol (this year girona), so the only one that matters is Barcelona. It would be a big blow, but definetely would be the 2-3 most powerful league.

And it would not be a matter of competitiveness, it would be a matter of feelings. If you are out of the country, you are out of the league, and it would say very poorly of Barcelona that always says "more than a club" precisely because it is supposed to be catalanist...imagine if they would not play the catalan league because their economic interests

 

[Revan]

No way, with atletico, sevilla and Valencia...Laliga had only 2 catalan teams regulary, Barcelona and Espanyol (this year girona), so the only one that matters is Barcelona. It would be a big blow, but definetely would be the 2-3 most powerful league.

And it would not be a matter of competitiveness, it would be a matter of feelings. If you are out of the country, you are out of the league, and it would say very poorly of Barcelona that always says "more than a club" precisely because it is supposed to be catalanist...imagine if they would not play the catalan league because their economic interests

Half of La Liga appeal is Real-Barca rivalry. Take that out and the league suffers a lot. Outside of Spain, none really gives a shit about Valencia or Atletico.

A small thing though, football ain't that important.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

What a cluster-feck.

Whatever the thoughts on the action of carrying out a "illegal" election... the crime in this instances clearly did not fit the punishment the police were handing out. Pretty shameful really.

 

[sun_tzu]

barcelona don´t have a saying. Laliga would kick catalan teams Barcelona included.

It would be a Catalan league with Barcelona with way less money, so tops, they would reach europa league (to play, not to win it)

dunno - I mean Wales is a seperate country as far as FIFA and UEFA are concerned and Swansea / Cardiff seem to be under no preassure to leave the PL... equally it seemed the largest stumbling block to getting in Celtic / Rangers would be the clubs themselves not voting for it but now that la liga has at least an element of a collective deal it would seem to be in the (financial) interests of all concerned to keep Barca (and presumably Espanyol and Girona as they are also catalan clubs in la liga)

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

This escalated quickly.

 

[Siorac]

I find the 'blame Rajoy, not Spanish people' kind of quotes, a bit disturbing. Didn't he win something like 40% in the elections, and his party essentially won the election (i.e, a lot of Spanish feel like him). In addition, a lot of people are saying that this will only increase his popularity.

I found always the isolation of the leader from the citizens in the blaming game a bit stupid, and while it is part of the political correctness, it is false. Yeah sure, Germans were awesome, just Hitler was an arsehole. Soviets - a great bunch - but Stalin was evil. Serbs, fantastic people, only that Milosevic was bad. And so on, and so on.

The leader - more often than not, especially in a 'democracy' like Spain - are a product of the country, so blaming them entirely and absolving the people from any blame is part of the problem IMO. Leaders usually cannot hold to their agenda, if most of the people of that country do not have similar feelings for the main causes.

Now the comparisons aren't great and I went from the most extreme one who was responsible for tens of millions of deaths, to a relatively harmless idiot like Rajoy who beat a few tens (hundreds) people and give propaganda ammunition to separatists for years to come, but the point stands. While Spanish might be lovely people (I know a lot of them and they're great) in the particular issue of Catalonia, they have been dicks, and absolving the Spanish people while putting the entire blame in Rajoy is a bit hypocritical.

I agree with the general point here but bringing up Stalin undermines it. It's not like Russians voted for them; the bolsheviks seized power by a coup, pretty much. Yeah, they went on to call it a revolution but really, it was a very efficiently staged coup. I'm sure initially quite a few people bought into their ideas but considering that there was widespread propaganda in an overall very uneducated country, that's not surprising; also, in many ways initially it could seem like a breath of fresh air after the czar's brutal regime.

 

[Mihajlovic]

I find the 'blame Rajoy, not Spanish people' kind of quotes, a bit disturbing. Didn't he win something like 40% in the elections, and his party essentially won the election (i.e, a lot of Spanish feel like him). In addition, a lot of people are saying that this will only increase his popularity.

I found always the isolation of the leader from the citizens in the blaming game a bit stupid, and while it is part of the political correctness, it is false. Yeah sure, Germans were awesome, just Hitler was an arsehole. Soviets - a great bunch - but Stalin was evil. Serbs, fantastic people, only that Milosevic was bad. And so on, and so on.

The leader - more often than not, especially in a 'democracy' like Spain - are a product of the country, so blaming them entirely and absolving the people from any blame is part of the problem IMO. Leaders usually cannot hold to their agenda, if most of the people of that country do not have similar feelings for the main causes.

Now the comparisons aren't great and I went from the most extreme one who was responsible for tens of millions of deaths, to a relatively harmless idiot like Rajoy who beat a few tens (hundreds) people and give propaganda ammunition to separatists for years to come, but the point stands. While Spanish might be lovely people (I know a lot of them and they're great) in the particular issue of Catalonia, they have been dicks, and absolving the Spanish people while putting the entire blame in Rajoy is a bit hypocritical.

Gosh can you not lay the feck off the Serbs for a day?!

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Sweet... Portugal is going to be bigger

United again like some centuries ago

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

General strike throughout Catalunya on Tuesday with demonstrations to continue today

Proud of my Catalan brothers & sisters, I expected nothing less - Visca Catalunya!

It's getting nastier and nastier.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Now I know were the American police hire their instructors

They remembered the good old time under Franco.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Lots of demonstrations around Spain in solidarity with catalonia. With them we could be together without a doubt. Unfortunately, they are not a majority

In the Basque Country as well?

 

[Mihajlovic]

What about Northern Catalonia, do French Catalans want independence as well?

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

What about Northern Catalonia, do French Catalans want independence as well?

Do you mean Pyrenees and Cerdagne?

 

[FCBarca]

Even in Valencia and the islands, there will be a longterm knock-on effect to other regions I believe

 

[Revan]

In the Basque Country as well?

Would be surprising if this isn't the case. Basque parliaments (both Basque Country and Navarre) have been very supportive to the Catalonia referendum, and I think that the feelings are shared also bu Basque people.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Sunday’s Catalan independence referendum was “not legal,” European Commission chief spokesman Margaritis Schinas said Monday.

Schinas also repeated the EU’s line that if Catalonia does become independent, it will be “outside the European Union.”

Catalan regional President Carles Puigdemont appealed directly to the EU last night after the results of the disputed referendum, which were overwhelmingly in favor of independence. Puigdemont said the EU “can no longer continue looking the other way.” But Schinas stuck to the Commission’s line on the dispute, repeating that it was “an internal matter.”

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-says-catalan-referendum-was-not-legal/

 

[The Outsider]

I don't think Catalan independence will have necessarily have a knock on effect and create the balkanisation of Spain, I think Catalonia is far bigger than most other regions except Andalusia. The latter being a less wealthy region. The bigger question might be, is how other costs in Spain will be split amongst the remaining regions, will they need to pay more?

Re Barcelona, when I travelled in Southern Spain in the nineties I found every other Spaniard supported Barcelona, I think this would change following independence. Would this create a knock on effect on Barcelona FC seeing falling revenues?

Re Catalonia finances when they are independent I would still see them using the Euro, at least initially. They would need to make a deal with the ECB or start their own currency.

 

[devilish]

In my opinion they should have allowed the referendum to go through but they would have made it pretty obvious that if Catalonia leaves then it will receive zero help from Spain. Borders will close and Catalonia will be on its own. The EU would do the same (as they did with Scotland).

 

[Mihajlovic]

In my opinion they should have allowed the referendum to go through but they would have made it pretty obvious that if Catalonia leaves then it will receive zero help from Spain. Borders will close and Catalonia will be on its own. The EU would do the same (as they did with Scotland).

The Catalans argue that they actually do not need any help from Spain. It is Spain that is more dependent on Catalunia than the other way around.

 

[devilish]

The Catalans argue that they actually do not need any help from Spain. It is Spain that is more dependent on Catalunia than the other way around.

good luck living alone without neither Spain nor Europe's help. This prospect can make even the UK tremble and its far richer/stronger then Catalunia is