Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[Nytram Shakes]

The Spanish government have really shot themselves in the foot now, the pressure to give Catalonia a sanctioned referendum from within Catalonia, around spain and from abroad will be immense, and if they do manage do get one then the governments actions over this vote is bound to lead to leave vote. Plus now if the don't grant a sanctioned referendum then it is unlikely that the bloodshed will stop here and it isnt easy to predict how much the violence could escalate.

Why the Spanish government reacted in such a violent way to this referendum is beyond me, any sensible person would be able to tell you that it would only make the situation worse.

What happens if Catalonia does leave is even more of a mess, you have issues with everything from national debt to armed forces to EU membership..... ist going to be a horrendous mess for both sides.

 

[itso 7]

good luck living alone without neither Spain nor Europe's help. This prospect can make even the UK tremble and its far richer/stronger then Catalunia is

If Europe was to display such a vindictive side to dissenting voices it won't be long before the disaffected say "feck it", this is a time where Europe and the Spanish government should be showing leadership and use more mature ways to keep Catalonia onside, imo. The merits and demerits of each side's case are difficult to accurately decipher because of emotions prevalent from sides but the crisis also presents an opportunity for the EU to play a mediatory role and nudge both sides towards a workable compromise. If Europe and the rest of the Western world do not speak out against police brutality on their door step where are they going to get the credibility to speak for people who suffer from systematic abuse of power, like ourselves in Zimbabwe, who look towards them for leadership? Because after all you can find legal justifications for virtually any kind state abuse of power.
Imo the Spanish government has a right and responsibiliy to defend the unity and integrity of its country but so do the people of Catalonia the right to self determination. By all accounts many Catalans weren't in support of separation so there was an opportunity for the central government to take the initiative and conduct a referendum on its own terms e.g setting the threshold of majority that a 'yes' vote had to achieve and setting the conditions of eventual separation so that voters would be more informed before deciding. This belligerent response only serves to deepen divisions unnecessarily.

 

[devilish]

If Europe was to display such a vindictive side to dissenting voices it won't be long before the disaffected say "feck it", this is a time where Europe and the Spanish government should be showing leadership and use more mature ways to keep Catalonia onside, imo. The merits and demerits of each side's case are difficult to accurately decipher because of emotions prevalent from sides but the crisis also presents an opportunity for the EU to play a mediatory role and nudge both sides towards a workable compromise. If Europe and the rest of the Western world do not speak out against police brutality on their door step where are they going to get the credibility to speak for people who suffer from systematic abuse of power, like ourselves in Zimbabwe, who look towards them for leadership? Because after all you can find legal justifications for virtually any kind state abuse of power.
Imo the Spanish government has a right and responsibiliy to defend the unity and integrity of its country but so do the people of Catalonia the right to self determination. By all accounts many Catalans weren't in support of separation so there was an opportunity for the central government to take the initiative and conduct a referendum on its own terms e.g setting the threshold of majority that a 'yes' vote had to achieve and setting the conditions of eventual separation so that voters would be more informed before deciding. This belligerent response only serves to deepen divisions unnecessarily.

There's nothing vindictive in it. Spain is an EU country, Catalonia (As a new country) is not. For the latter to become part of the EU then it must apply for membership just like any other country. That was the same response given to Scotland, a strong remainer in a country which is strongly Brexiteer.

We need to decide what type of EU do we want. Do we want a weak EU which oversea a loose confederation of nations each having the sovreign rights to do whatever they want or do we want a united states of Europe? In the former case then the EU has zero jurisdiction over Spain, its sovreign right to deal with matters and how it handles its national affairs. Same can be said about Scotland whose being dragged out of the EU out of its own free will. In the latter case then yes, the EU will be in a position to punish Spain for its actions, through sanctions. It would also be in a position to offer Scotland EU membership irrespective of what Westminster say and in complete contrast to the UK national interest and sovreignity.

 

[itso 7]

There's nothing vindictive in it. Spain is an EU country, Catalonia (As a new country) is not. For the latter to become part of the EU then it must apply for membership just like any other country. That was the same response given to Scotland, a strong remainer in a country which is strongly Brexiteer.

We need to decide what type of EU we want. Do we want the EU to mess into national issues or not?

The Spain that is an EU country effectively includes Catalonia so if Catalonia would be a new country so should Spain because the contributions that Spain paid or is paying for its continued membership certainly includes proceeds from Catalonia. Putting forth such declarations is in fact interfering with the internal processes of a country because you are basically putting forward deterrents to a population that you have duty to protect.

 

[Revan]

Catalonia not getting in EU automatically is fine, but considering that they already have all the EU rules, are economically reach, in any fair process, they should be able to get I EU within a couple of years.

So, no need to accept them automatically, but as long as Spain and EU would not be vindictive, they would be totally fine and join EU in a record time.

 

[devilish]

The Spain that is an EU country effectively includes Catalonia so if Catalonia would be a new country so should Spain because the contributions that Spain paid or is paying for its continued membership certainly includes proceeds from Catalonia. Putting forth such declarations is in fact interfering with the internal processes of a country because you are basically putting forward deterrents to a population that you have duty to protect.

That's not how it works, something Nicola Sturgeon knows very well. If Catalonia leaves Spain then it becomes a new country. A new country will have to negotiate its way back to the EU. That means it will need an unanimity vote from all EU countries. There’s no chance in hell that Spain will agree to have Catalonia part of the EU soon after it had left Spain.

The EU is also powerless in punishing Spain. That also need an unanimity vote something that will never happen as Poland-Spain will protect one another. The EU doesn’t even have an army to send to protect Catalonia.

That's why the EU needs teeth which can only be granted if its given more power.

 

[carvajal]

That's not how it works, something Nicola Sturgeon knows very well. If Catalonia leaves Spain then it becomes a new country. A new country will have to negotiate its way back to the EU. That means it will need an unanimity vote from all EU countries. There’s no chance in hell that Spain will agree to have Catalonia part of the EU soon after it had left Spain.

The EU is also powerless in punishing Spain. That also need an unanimity vote something that will never happen as Poland-Spain will protect one another. The EU doesn’t even have an army to send to protect Catalonia.

That's why the EU needs teeth which can only be granted if its given more power.

Why Poland?

 

[devilish]

Catalonia not getting in EU automatically is fine, but considering that they already have all the EU rules, are economically reach, in any fair process, they should be able to get I EU within a couple of years.

So, no need to accept them automatically, but as long as Spain and EU would not be vindictive, they would be totally fine and join EU in a record time.

The Eu won’t be vindictive but Spain will probably be.Why should they help a rebelling province in any way? Would England help Scotland if the latter decide to leave the Union?

Considering that new members can only join the union with an unanimity vote then there’s no chance in hell that Catalonia will rejoin the EU without Spain’s consent. That rule won't change anytime soon considering that Cyprus use that same rule to keep Turkey out of Europe

 

[itso 7]

Catalonia not getting in EU automatically is fine, but considering that they already have all the EU rules, are economically reach, in any fair process, they should be able to get I EU within a couple of years.

So, no need to accept them automatically, but as long as Spain and EU would not be vindictive, they would be totally fine and join EU in a record time.

That is ok too but in any divorce there is party that remains as it were before the fact, imo Spain qualified for EU membership with Catalonia as one its regions which was paying taxes to Spain - taxes that contributed to Spain meeting whatever criteria it had been set - so in fairness issues of EU membership shouldn't be used as a deterrent. But as you say the process shouldn't be hardened for them if ever they leave - something I don't entirely support because I think they are a long way from reaching a point of no return and both parties are stronger together imo.

 

[devilish]

Why Poland?

Poland is currently defending its own quarter in terms of EU 'messing' into its sovreignity. If the EU decides to try punishing Spain over Catalonia then it will provide Poland the golden opportunity needed to make Spain an ally. Most EU decisions are taking with a nearly unaminity vote (either 27 or 26 if the decision taken is meant to punish a particular nation). Spain + Poland will probably gang up and protect one another.

 

[itso 7]

The Eu won’t be vindictive but Spain will probably be.Why should they help a rebelling province in any way? Would England help Scotland if the latter decide to leave the Union?

Considering that new members can only join the union with an unanimity vote then there’s no chance in hell that Catalonia will rejoin the EU without Spain’s consent. That rule won't change anytime soon considering that Cyprus use that same rule to keep Turkey out of Europe

If they ever leave I think the geopolitics of the matter will trump Spain's misgivings, no way the US and the EU leave such a strategically placed region out of the EU and NATO and therefore liable to alliances with Russia, China or any other power. If push comes to shove the US would simply offer it an irresistible trade deal/sponsorship in exchange of a military base or anything along those lines. The bolded hasn't stopped Turkey from enjoying massive US financial and military support so being in the EU won't be as important to Catalonia when it can court various allies in the knowledge that the EU/US don't want Russian/Chinese influence so close to EU borders.

 

[devilish]

If they ever leave I think the geopolitics of the matter will trump Spain's misgivings, no way the US and the EU leave such a strategically placed region out of the EU and NATO and therefore liable to alliances with Russia, China or any other power. If push comes to shove the US would simply offer it an irresistible trade deal/sponsorship in exchange of a military base or anything along those lines.

Well same things used to be said about Turkey which is way more important (strategic wise) then Catalonia. Yet countries such as Cyprus had been able to keep Turkey out of the EU being the nation plays an important role in protecting NATO's interests and has previously been a historical best buddy to both Germany and the US.

 

[carvajal]

Poland is currently defending its own quarter in terms of EU 'messing' into its sovreignity. If the EU decides to try punishing Spain over Catalonia then it will provide Poland the golden opportunity needed to make Spain an ally. Most EU decisions are taking with a nearly unaminity vote (either 27 or 26 if the decision taken is meant to punish a particular nation). Spain + Poland will probably gang up and protect one another.

Aha, thanks. Anyway I don´t think that we´ll reach that point (serious conflicts with the EU).

 

[devilish]

Aha, thanks. Anyway I don´t think that we´ll reach that point (serious conflicts with the EU).

Just to make things clear. I am disgusted of the way Spain is treating Catalonians and I am a firm believer that its within Europe interests to allow some countries to break free (Wales, Scotland, Sicily, Catalonia etc) from its main country if they want to.

My previous posts are meant to highlight the EU limitations on this regard.

 

[itso 7]

Well same things used to be said about Turkey which is way more important (strategic wise) then Catalonia. Yet countries such as Cyprus had been able to keep Turkey out of the EU being the nation plays an important role in protecting NATO's interests and has previously been a historical best buddy to both Germany and the US.

Yet Turkey is doing fine without being in the EU officially, nothing will stop Catalonia from leveraging its position to earn itself a trade deal and financial aid should it so desire and nothing will stop the US from offering it that support which will effectively replace whatever support it received from the EU. Being in the EU is not the be all and end all particularly for a comparatively small country. There is no way Catalonia get hung out to dry if they ever leave.

 

[devilish]

Yet Turkey is doing fine without being in the EU officially, nothing will stop Catalonia from leveraging its position to earn itself a trade deal and financial aid should it so desire and nothing will stop the US from offering it that support which will effectively replace whatever support it received from the EU. Being in the EU is not the be all and end all particularly for a comparatively small country. There is no way Catalonia get hung out to dry if they ever leave.

Turkey is an enormous and rich country whose been the homeland of two of the most powerful empires in Europe's history (ie the eastern Roman Empire and the Ottoman empire). The reason why its got some concessions within the single market is that it plays such an important role in NATO and is nannying millions of immigrants on Europe's behalf. Catalonia has barely any leverage at all

 

[itso 7]

Turkey is an enormous and rich country whose been the homeland of two of the most powerful empires in Europe's history (ie the eastern Roman Empire and the Ottoman empire). The reason why its got some concessions within the single market is that it plays such an important role in NATO and is nannying millions of immigrants on Europe's behalf. Catalonia has barely any leverage at all

Its coastal position on the edge of the EU is enough to get it enough concessions for its small population to thrive especially in this time where NATO and Russia appear to be at it again. If you think Catalonia will be left to its own devices if it ever leaves then go on telling yourself that. Firstly it will be discouraged from leaving Spain but if it succeeds there will be a scramble for some form of economic deal in exchange of military cooperation. The current geopolitical rivalries dictate it will be so, Turkey as rich as it is still enjoys an alliance with NATO and support from the US for those security reasons.

 

[barros]

barcelona don´t have a saying. Laliga would kick catalan teams Barcelona included.

It would be a Catalan league with Barcelona with way less money, so tops, they would reach europa league (to play, not to win it)

Then finally we can have our revenge and beat Barcelona for fun

 

[devilish]

Its coastal position on the edge of the EU is enough to get it enough concessions for its small population to thrive especially in this time where NATO and Russia appear to be at it again. If you think Catalonia will be left to its own devices if it ever leaves then go on telling yourself that. Firstly it will be discouraged from leaving Spain but if it succeeds there will be a scramble for some form of economic deal in exchange of military cooperation. The current geopolitical rivalries dictate it will be so, Turkey as rich as it is still enjoys an alliance with NATO and support from the US for those security reasons.

Well we have to agree to disagree on this. I dont share your optimisim though. Scotland and Turkey is far more important/richer then Catalonia is and both were kept outside the EU, the former by a leaving member (with help from Spain) and the latter by Cyprus. Spain will be holding all the cards and considering how emotions are running high on this issue, I doubt it will provide any concessions whatsoever.

Also Trump can't care less about Europe.

 

[barros]

If they ever leave I think the geopolitics of the matter will trump Spain's misgivings, no way the US and the EU leave such a strategically placed region out of the EU and NATO and therefore liable to alliances with Russia, China or any other power. If push comes to shove the US would simply offer it an irresistible trade deal/sponsorship in exchange of a military base or anything along those lines. The bolded hasn't stopped Turkey from enjoying massive US financial and military support so being in the EU won't be as important to Catalonia when it can court various allies in the knowledge that the EU/US don't want Russian/Chinese influence so close to EU borders.

^
This

 

[itso 7]

Well we have to agree to disagree on this. I dont share your optimisim though. Scotland and Turkey is far more important/richer then Catalonia is and both were kept outside the EU, the former by a leaving member (with help from Spain) and the latter by Cyprus. Spain will be holding all the cards and considering how emotions are running high on this issue, I doubt it will provide any concessions whatsoever.

No problem on that its a forum after all but I find it hard to believe that both the EU and the US will allow a region just a stone's throw away from EU borders to left dangling and thus susceptible to a deal with a recently assertive Russia or to descent into chaos through poverty. Scotland is leaving because it is a part of Britain and had it left when it had its plebiscite its membership drive would have been accelerated imo. The Turkish issue as far as I Know isn't being held back by just Cyprus but there are lot of issues surrounding its membership such as - is it really desirable for a wholly Muslim country to be a member of the EU, migration and the status of its military involvement in gvt all those years back? And didn't Erdogan practically sabotage the whole Euro drive through repression and other governance issues? Also wasn't there a general concern on the German and British side about migration from Turkey?

 

[barros]

Well we have to agree to disagree on this. I dont share your optimisim though. Scotland and Turkey is far more important/richer then Catalonia is and both were kept outside the EU, the former by a leaving member (with help from Spain) and the latter by Cyprus. Spain will be holding all the cards and considering how emotions are running high on this issue, I doubt it will provide any concessions whatsoever.

But that wouldn't stop US to build a base and giving them a good trade deal, people forget UK but soon they are out of EU they would trade with Catalunya.

 

[devilish]

No problem on that its a forum after all but I find it hard to believe that both the EU and the US will allow a region just a stone's throw away from EU borders to left dangling and thus susceptible to a deal with a recently assertive Russia or to descent into chaos through poverty. Scotland is leaving because it is a part of Britain and had it left when it had its plebiscite its membership drive would have been accelerated imo. The Turkish issue as far as I Know isn't being held back by just Cyprus but there are lot of issues surrounding its membership such as - is it really desirable for a wholly Muslim country to be a member of the EU, migration and the status of its military involvement in gvt all those years back? And didn't Erdogan practically sabotage the whole Euro drive through repression and other governance issues?

I don't know alot about the US politics tbh. It does look to me a bit inconsistent with Obama loving the EU, Trump hating the EU etc. The US arming the kurds (Gulf war 1) then abandoning them (Gulf war 1), then arm them again (Syria conflict), and then abandoning them again (Under Trump). God only knows what that country will do.

However I do know a thing or two about the EU and in the present format it will struggle to offer anything meaningful to Catalonia as long as its got Spain as an enemy.

 

[carvajal]

Just to make things clear. I am disgusted of the way Spain is treating Catalonians and I am a firm believer that its within Europe interests to allow some countries to break free (Wales, Scotland, Sicily, Catalonia etc) from its main country if they want to.

My previous posts are meant to highlight the EU limitations on this regard.

The government was wrong. For weeks They dedicated to specific actions to stop the referendum, especially informational and funding issues, showing moderation and the last day they lost control.
They acted late that same day, when the polling stations were already full of people, in addition the ineffectiveness of the Catalan police, which did not act, caused much more chaos.
I think his lack of political courage (not using the 155 a week ago) has worsened the situation.

 

[devilish]

The government was wrong. For weeks They dedicated to specific actions to stop the referendum, especially informational and funding issues, showing moderation and the last day they lost control.
They acted late that same day, when the polling stations were already full of people, in addition the ineffectiveness of the Catalan police, which did not act, caused much more chaos.
I think his lack of political courage (not using the 155 a week ago) has worsened the situation.

of course its wrong and Im disgusted about what happened afterwards. In my opinion, it should have informed people what it means leaving Spain and then leave it to them to decide their future. A Project Fear type of strategy used by Westminster with Scotland would have been far more effective then this mess especially since the EU would have probably joined in support in the same way as they did with the UK.

The current situation gives Catalonians no option but to rebel. It makes Spain look bad and the EU (+ most of the Western world) look weak

 

[itso 7]

I don't know alot about the US politics tbh. It does look to me a bit inconsistent with Obama loving the EU, Trump hating the EU etc. However I do know a thing or two about the EU and in the present format it will struggle to offer anything meaningful to Catalonia as long as its got Spain on board.

Mate the attraction of the EU is in the economic benefits available through membership right? So do you think any other power besides the EU would find it difficult to offer a beneficial trade deal in exchange of a military alliance that allows them to set up base right on Europe's doors step? In view of the above don't you see why it is easy to deduce that the US will offer Catalonia or any similarly placed rebel favourable terms to starve off the possibility of enemy presence on EU soil and it will do so with the blessings of all the senior partners of the EU? Firstly there will be all forms of discouragement but in the unlikely event that Catalonia secedes from Spain it will be grossly irresponsible of any superpower to leave it dangling in this current environment.

 

[itso 7]

The government was wrong. For weeks They dedicated to specific actions to stop the referendum, especially informational and funding issues, showing moderation and the last day they lost control.
They acted late that same day, when the polling stations were already full of people, in addition the ineffectiveness of the Catalan police, which did not act, caused much more chaos.
I think his lack of political courage (not using the 155 a week ago) has worsened the situation.

What I don't get is would a vote already nullified by the courts be that important when Spain could have let it run, ignore the result and arrest the Catalan gvt officials for treason when they declared a hollow independence? Anything other than this madness. Why bother when there was a way out already?

 

[barros]

The government was wrong. For weeks They dedicated to specific actions to stop the referendum, especially informational and funding issues, showing moderation and the last day they lost control.
They acted late that same day, when the polling stations were already full of people, in addition the ineffectiveness of the Catalan police, which did not act, caused much more chaos.
I think his lack of political courage (not using the 155 a week ago) has worsened the situation.

I think the King should act and kick out the prime minister, apologize to the victims and charge who gave the authorities the green light to attack civilians, would look good to the rest of Europe and may save Spain from losing Catalonia in the future, also they should treat every province with autonomy the same way and not taxing one more than another.

 

[devilish]

Mate the attraction of the EU is in the economic benefits available through membership right? So do you think any other power besides the EU would find it difficult to offer a beneficial trade deal in exchange of a military alliance that allows them to set up base right on Europe's doors step? In view of the above don't you see why it is easy to deduce that the US will offer Catalonia or any similarly placed rebel favourable terms to starve off the possibility of enemy presence on EU soil and it will do so with the blessings of all the senior partners of the EU? Firstly there will be all forms of discouragement but in the unlikely event that Catalonia secedes from Spain it will be grossly irresponsible of any superpower to leave it dangling in this current environment.

You're asking that to a Maltese ie whose country was illegally colonised, then reduced to poverty because it was turned into one big military base only to nearly ended up being bombed into oblivion. I might not be the best person to answer to that.

However here's my two cents about it. In my opinion no one will give such beneficial trade deal in exchange for a foreign base. Malta sits in the middle of the mediterranean sea with a giant SAR that extends from Lampedusa to nearly Cyprus and a stepping stone away from Libya and Italy. Yet when we asked for far less then that, the deal went tits up that despite our close links with the UK, the fact that negotiations were conducted by the best negotiator in our history, during the cold war + you could bomb the likes of Gheddafi from a Malta within him even noticing. That ended up with us getting closer to Libya and actually saving his life in 1986 (I think)

a- Europe is not as important for the US as it once was.
b- The EU hands will be tied at least in the current format
c- Russia doesn't have the funds to give Catalonia a deal which mirrors the benefits of EU membership.

 

[carvajal]

of course its wrong and Im disgusted about what happened afterwards. In my opinion, it should have informed people what it means leaving Spain and then leave it to them to decide their future. A Project Fear type of strategy used by Westminster with Scotland would have been far more effective then this mess especially since the EU would have probably joined in support in the same way as they did with the UK.

The current situation gives Catalonians no option but to rebel. It makes Spain look bad and the EU (+ most of the Western world) look weak

I think that the NO would win, but there wasn´t a NO campaign. This was simply a confirmation of the yes. The PP (right) don´t want to negociate a "normal" referendum, probably because it would open a door for other regions and the country would collapse.
Probably with PSOE(left) they will get it in the future.

What I don't get is would a vote already nullified by the courts be that important when Spain could have let it run, ignore the result and arrest the Catalan gvt officials for treason when they declared a hollow independence? Anything other than this madness. Why bother when there was a way out already?

Yes, that would be a good idea. I think that they didn´t perhaps thinking that it would worsen the situation (repression of the central government taking away our autonomy), or perhaps they simply waited for the fact to be consummated. They lacked political firmness

I think the King should act and kick out the prime minister, apologize to the victims and charge who gave the authorities the green light to attack civilians, would look good to the rest of Europe and may save Spain from losing Catalonia in the future, also they should treat every province with autonomy the same way and not taxing one more than another.

The king can´t do that. He doesn´t have any executive power. He is basically a diplomatic character, besides he is chief of the army, therefore he should do something only in the last scenario

 

[itso 7]

You're asking that to a Maltese ie whose country was illegally colonised, then reduced to poverty because it was turned into one big military base only to nearly ended up being bombed into oblivion. I might not be the best person to answer to that.

However here's my two cents about it. In my opinion no one will give such beneficial trade deal in exchange for a foreign base. Malta sits in the middle of the mediterranean sea with a giant SAR that extends from Lampedusa to nearly Cyprus and a stepping stone away from Libya and Italy. Yet when we asked for far less then that, the deal went tits up that despite our close links with the UK, the fact that negotiations were conducted by the best negotiator in our history, during the cold war + you could bomb the likes of Gheddafi from a Malta within him even noticing. That ended up with us getting closer to Libya and actually saving his life in 1986 (I think)

a- Europe is not as important for the US as it once was.
b- The EU hands will be tied at least in the current format
c- Russia doesn't have the funds to give Catalonia a deal which mirrors the benefits of EU membership.

I think you overestimate the kind of assistance a developed but small population country needs to maintain standards, a tariff free access for one of their products to the US market could be all it takes plus a military deal cuts the security costs they would have to bear. That's a walk in the park for any power.

 

[devilish]

I think you overestimate the kind of assistance a developed but small population country needs to maintain standards, a tariff free access for one of their products to the US market could be all it takes plus a military deal cuts the security costs they would have to bear. That's a walk in the park for any power.

As said, Malta was in that same situation

a- at a time when Europe was far more important to the US then it is now
b- few decades after all maltese were given the george cross for their valour during WW2
c- despite being few miles away from one of the US arch nemesis of the time + the fact we've got one of the biggest and most important SARs in all the mediterranian sea.

We didn't took half of what you're asking from the US or anybody else. That ended up with us getting closer to Libya which paved the way for Malta being used by the Libyans as a way to defy sanctions + as an effective wake up call just in case someone tried to bomb Gheddafi.

In my opinion, Catalonia should wait a year or two and see what Macron + Merkel are cooking for this new reformed Europe. If EU membership (or trade deals) become a majority thing instead of an unanimity thing then Catalonia has a very good chance of getting a great trade deal/EU membership.

 

[finneh]

Am I missing something... Why wouldn't Spain just allow Catalonia to have a legally binding referendum and put forward their own campaign to try and persuade them to stay ala the Scottish referendum? Surely it makes absolutely no sense to use force to keep the region as part of Spain, if the majority of the populace want independence?

To me it sounds like the stupidest idea in the world to prevent people from exercising a democratic right. In the long term it'll be counter productive; cause more people to seek independence; and if peaceful and democratic protests do not work, things will eventually turn violent.

 

[itso 7]

As said, Malta was in that same situation

a- at a time when Europe was far more important to the US then it is now
b- few decades after all maltese were given the george cross for their valour during WW2
c- despite being few miles away from one of the US arch nemesis of the time + the fact we've got one of the biggest and most important SARs in all the mediterranian sea.

We didn't took half of what you're asking from the US or anybody else. That ended up with us getting closer to Libya which paved the way for Malta being used by the Libyans as a way to defy sanctions + as an effective wake up call just in case someone tried to bomb Gheddafi.

In my opinion, Catalonia should wait a year or two and see what Macron + Merkel are cooking for this new reformed Europe. If EU membership (or trade deals) become a majority thing instead of an unanimity thing then Catalonia has a very good chance of getting a great trade deal/EU membership.

You were right lets agree to disagree, mate. Fwiw I think the situation hasn't escalated to a point of no return yet and this still room for common sense to prevail where the EU should step in and mediate maybe by arranging a summit where each side greviances are aired out and compromise is found because a civil war in Europe is the least desirable outcome.

 

[devilish]

You were right lets agree to disagree, mate. Fwiw I think the situation hasn't escalated to a point of no return yet and this still room for common sense to prevail where the EU should step in and mediate maybe by arranging a summit where each side greviances are aired out and compromise is found because a civil war in Europe is the least desirable outcome.

In my opinion, its yet another example of why a stronger and more integrated Europe is needed. Its ridiculous that any country within the EU can show the middle finger towards the values of an entire continent and get away with it.

 

[Javi]

The U.S. doesn't need a military base in Catalonia, as they have allies all over the place in Western Europe, plus they have bases in Germany at least (and maybe other places). There is no geopolitical threat possible from Russia/Turkey/China alliances with Catalonia, because they are dependant on the EU market (65% of the exports go there right now and that's not counting things that are going to the rest of spain).

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Do the Catalans want to leave the EU once they get independence?

 

[Javi]

Do the Catalans want to leave the EU once they get independence?

AFAIK, they won't be in it.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Do the Catalans want to leave the EU once they get independence?

If they leave the EU and Spain could they turn themselves into a tax haven? Just curious.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

AFAIK, they won't be in it.

Do they want to reapply though?

If they leave the EU and Spain could they turn themselves into a tax haven? Just curious.

Luxembourg and Ireland are business tax havens within the EU. Catalonia is a wealthy region though. I wonder if they want to be truly independent.