Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[itso 7]

Am I missing something... Why wouldn't Spain just allow Catalonia to have a legally binding referendum and put forward their own campaign to try and persuade them to stay ala the Scottish referendum? Surely it makes absolutely no sense to use force to keep the region as part of Spain, if the majority of the populace want independence?

To me it sounds like the stupidest idea in the world to prevent people from exercising a democratic right. In the long term it'll be counter productive; cause more people to seek independence; and if peaceful and democratic protests do not work, things will eventually turn violent.

I think Brexit and the Trump election have eroded people's trust in opinion polls and awakened them to the possibility of a shock result becoming reality however I still find the crackdown unnecessary given that the vote had been declared illegal by the courts meaning that Spain had the option of saying "we respect the result but given that it was held against a court ruling nullifying it we have no obligation to recognize or act upon it but we will take the result under advisement". If the independent proponents proceeded to declare independence lock their asses up, charge them with sedition and call for a fresh election.

 

[Javi]

Do they want to reapply though?

I'd consider that a safe bet, since it would be their export market No. 1 by far.

 

[Revan]

I think that the NO would win, but there wasn´t a NO campaign. This was simply a confirmation of the yes. The PP (right) don´t want to negociate a "normal" referendum, probably because it would open a door for other regions and the country would collapse.
Probably with PSOE(left) they will get it in the future.

Yes, that would be a good idea. I think that they didn´t perhaps thinking that it would worsen the situation (repression of the central government taking away our autonomy), or perhaps they simply waited for the fact to be consummated. They lacked political firmness

The king can´t do that. He doesn´t have any executive power. He is basically a diplomatic character, besides he is chief of the army, therefore he should do something only in the last scenario

He can appoint and dismiss members of the government, in addition to having the power of calling referendums and elections. I think that his father did some unity work in the eighties for which he still is loved.

Obviously, the situation has not gone as far yet, but I think that Rajoy (and the head of Catalonia government) should resign/overthrown, and calmer heads try to diffuse the complicated situation.

Am I missing something... Why wouldn't Spain just allow Catalonia to have a legally binding referendum and put forward their own campaign to try and persuade them to stay ala the Scottish referendum? Surely it makes absolutely no sense to use force to keep the region as part of Spain, if the majority of the populace want independence?

To me it sounds like the stupidest idea in the world to prevent people from exercising a democratic right. In the long term it'll be counter productive; cause more people to seek independence; and if peaceful and democratic protests do not work, things will eventually turn violent.

Indeed. This was the logical option to do.

 

[marktan]

Same can be said about Scotland whose being dragged out of the EU out of its own free will. In the latter case then yes, the EU will be in a position to punish Spain for its actions, through sanctions. It would also be in a position to offer Scotland EU membership irrespective of what Westminster say and in complete contrast to the UK national interest and sovreignity.

The two aren't really comparable, because the UK is made up of a union of countries - and it's the UK as a whole that voted to leave the EU, not the individual countries themselves. If Scotland had voted to be an independant country, then yes, you could offer them membership to the EU. And I wouldn't call the Scotland a heavy remain country - they wanted the UK as a whole to remain - not just Scotland. Sturgeon wants Scotland to leave the UK and join the EU - and the SNP took a heavy battering in the last election and lost like a third of their seats - which suggests that if given the choice of being in the EU and not the UK - the vote to be in the EU would be a lot lower. So it's not really a direct comparison at all, because the Catalans want to leave Spain and I'm assuming be in the EU, whereas the Scots voted to be in the EU and the UK. The vote to be in the EU but leave the UK would be a lot lower.

 

[carvajal]

He can appoint and dismiss members of the government, in addition to having the power of calling referendums and elections. I think that his father did some unity work in the eighties for which he still is loved.

Obviously, the situation has not gone as far yet, but I think that Rajoy (and the head of Catalonia government) should resign/overthrown, and calmer heads try to diffuse the complicated situation.

Indeed. This was the logical option to do.

He can appoint the president after the elections but he can´t get rid of the president. Yes, Rajoy should resign but he won´t. Ciudadanos (the soft version of PP) are part of the coalition, so if Rivera(Ciudadanos) press Rajoy with the 155 he should accept it.
Now we will have to wait to the declaration of independence.
I think nobody has any idea of what is going to happen tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, neither the citizens nor possibly the government, since we had never been in this scenario.

 

[finneh]

I think Brexit and the Trump election have eroded people's trust in opinion polls and awakened them to the possibility of a shock result becoming reality however I still find the crackdown unnecessary given that the vote had been declared illegal by the courts meaning that Spain had the option of saying "we respect the result but given that it was held against a court ruling nullifying it we have no obligation to recognize or act upon it but we will take the result under advisement". If the independent proponents proceeded to declare independence lock their asses up, charge them with sedition and call for a fresh election.

Opinion polls should be irrelevant. If people are fearful that Catalonia would vote for independence, why not set a referendum date with enough time for the central Government to show the people that they have a really positive vision for the region as part of Spain. A vision that might include more devolved powers such as more flexibility over taxation, more flexibility over spending, making the region self funded (collects and spends it's own tax) etc.

If they still voted for independence then fair play to them. Every region of people should have the right to decide whether they are self-governing.

The only thing I would say is that as part of the agreement to allow a referendum, the Catalonian side would have to agree that the referendum answers the question for a generation. The only issue I have with the Scottish referendum is that you always knew that 12 months later the SNP would find a reason to say the situation had changed and that they want another referendum because of it. Whether it would have been the EU vote, the price of oil, "Tory cuts", or the fact the Sturgeon was now the SNP leader rather than Salmond.

The referendum would have to put the issue to bed.

 

[itso 7]

Opinion polls should be irrelevant. If people are fearful that Catalonia would vote for independence, why not set a referendum date with enough time for the central Government to show the people that they have a really positive vision for the region as part of Spain. A vision that might include more devolved powers such as more flexibility over taxation, more flexibility over spending, making the region self funded (collects and spends it's own tax) etc.

If they still voted for independence then fair play to them. Every region of people should have the right to decide whether they are self-governing.

The only thing I would say is that as part of the agreement to allow a referendum, the Catalonian side would have to agree that the referendum answers the question for a generation. The only issue I have with the Scottish referendum is that you always knew that 12 months later the SNP would find a reason to say the situation had changed and that they want another referendum because of it. Whether it would have been the EU vote, the price of oil, "Tory cuts", or the fact the Sturgeon was now the SNP leader rather than Salmond.

The referendum would have to put the issue to bed.

Another thing is that there should be a preagreed threshold of majority because a situation that happened with Brexit isn't fair on a significant portion of the population that wanted to remain - imo an exit vote should only be applicable if an overwhelming majority vote for it say 66%?.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Would be surprising if this isn't the case. Basque parliaments (both Basque Country and Navarre) have been very supportive to the Catalonia referendum, and I think that the feelings are shared also bu Basque people.

Indeed. The Basque Country wanted to be indipendent before Catalonia.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Even in Valencia and the islands, there will be a longterm knock-on effect to other regions I believe

Don't they speak catalan in The Balearic Islands? I remember working in London with a guy from Mallorca who tried to teach me a little catalan

 

[MoskvaRed]

The Spanish government has played this incredibly badly - ignore calls for an official referendum in which "remain" would probably win, which in turn leads to an unofficial, illegal referendum in which, naturally, only independence supporters participate which you then try to suppress with a heavy police presence. Compare to Cameron - while he took a risk in Scotland with the referendum, if it hadn't been for his kamikaze follow up on Brexit, he would have killed the issue dead for at least a generation.

 

[barros]

I think that the NO would win, but there wasn´t a NO campaign. This was simply a confirmation of the yes. The PP (right) don´t want to negociate a "normal" referendum, probably because it would open a door for other regions and the country would collapse.
Probably with PSOE(left) they will get it in the future.

Yes, that would be a good idea. I think that they didn´t perhaps thinking that it would worsen the situation (repression of the central government taking away our autonomy), or perhaps they simply waited for the fact to be consummated. They lacked political firmness

The king can´t do that. He doesn´t have any executive power. He is basically a diplomatic character, besides he is chief of the army, therefore he should do something only in the last scenario

But he can dissolve the government?

 

[carvajal]

But he can dissolve the government?

I don´t think so. He can only dissolve it if the president tells him to do it, or after a successful motion of censure to the government, but he can´t take those kind of personal decisions

 

[4bars]

What about Northern Catalonia, do French Catalans want independence as well?

Nope, independentism is minimal there. France made a good work to destroy any regional sentiment and as well is a country that economically works

 

[Raoul]

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[4bars]

The guy didn't answer shamelessly a lot of questions that could compromise the EU. EU will not meddle in it. We are on our own

 

[decorativeed]

Indeed. The Basque Country wanted to be indipendent before Catalonia.

Spent some time in Guernica today. Obviously very symbolic of struggle against Madrid, so unsurprisingly there are a lot of Catalan flags and pro-democracy, pro-catalan graffiti around the town.

 

[4bars]

I don't think Catalan independence will have necessarily have a knock on effect and create the balkanisation of Spain, I think Catalonia is far bigger than most other regions except Andalusia. The latter being a less wealthy region. The bigger question might be, is how other costs in Spain will be split amongst the remaining regions, will they need to pay more?

Re Barcelona, when I travelled in Southern Spain in the nineties I found every other Spaniard supported Barcelona, I think this would change following independence. Would this create a knock on effect on Barcelona FC seeing falling revenues?

Re Catalonia finances when they are independent I would still see them using the Euro, at least initially. They would need to make a deal with the ECB or start their own currency.

Andalucia is the second biggest and Catalonia is the 6th (6% of Spain). Andalucia most populated, Catalonia Second

 

[Revan]

Another thing is that there should be a preagreed threshold of majority because a situation that happened with Brexit isn't fair on a significant portion of the population that wanted to remain - imo an exit vote should only be applicable if an overwhelming majority vote for it say 66%?.

Definitely agree that for independence, it should be a supermajority vote, not a marginal one. It is a big decision, and unlike the election of government, you have to live with it forever so it makes sense for it to happen only if the vast majority of people want it.

 

[4bars]

In my opinion they should have allowed the referendum to go through but they would have made it pretty obvious that if Catalonia leaves then it will receive zero help from Spain. Borders will close and Catalonia will be on its own. The EU would do the same (as they did with Scotland).

Yup, accepting our responsibilities and consequences is only fair

 

[rcoobc]

barcelona don´t have a saying. Laliga would kick catalan teams Barcelona included.

It would be a Catalan league with Barcelona with way less money, so tops, they would reach europa league (to play, not to win it)

Barca most certainly would have a say in it.

They are presumably part owners of La Liga. They can point to Swansea and Cardiff in the English league system as examples of it working elsewhere. It might go to the courts, but very few, if anyone, wants Barcelona out.

 

[4bars]

Well we have to agree to disagree on this. I dont share your optimisim though. Scotland and Turkey is far more important/richer then Catalonia is and both were kept outside the EU, the former by a leaving member (with help from Spain) and the latter by Cyprus. Spain will be holding all the cards and considering how emotions are running high on this issue, I doubt it will provide any concessions whatsoever.

Also Trump can't care less about Europe.

In which way Scotland is more important/richer than Catalonia?

 

[4bars]

Am I missing something... Why wouldn't Spain just allow Catalonia to have a legally binding referendum and put forward their own campaign to try and persuade them to stay ala the Scottish referendum? Surely it makes absolutely no sense to use force to keep the region as part of Spain, if the majority of the populace want independence?

To me it sounds like the stupidest idea in the world to prevent people from exercising a democratic right. In the long term it'll be counter productive; cause more people to seek independence; and if peaceful and democratic protests do not work, things will eventually turn violent.

That is what we had been asking for the last 5 years. And they ignored us. That is why we went our way. We would not stay home doing nothing

 

[4bars]

Do the Catalans want to leave the EU once they get independence?

Really pro european. Not myself though see how they treated the Greeks and the refugee situation so far, among other things

 

[4bars]

Indeed. The Basque Country wanted to be indipendent before Catalonia.

Nope, we had a independence declaration every century since the XVIII

 

[4bars]

Barca most certainly would have a say in it.

They are presumably part owners of La Liga. They can point to Swansea and Cardiff in the English league system as examples of it working elsewhere. It might go to the courts, but very few, if anyone, wants Barcelona out.

You need to be federated to play in Spain, and the Federation is a guvernamental organization.

Also, the other teams of laliga can kick him out, as any association

 

[Raoul]

Anyone know what Pique is talking about in the tweet above ?

 

[dwd]

Going to Barcelona on Saturday with Ryanair

 

[4bars]

@devilish

About Catalonia. Can you imagine us out of the EU? Between France and Spain, threatening to be under the influence of other countries?

Most of the products in and out of Spain passes through the roads, rails and ports (most important of the mediterranian see) of Catalonia

Net contributor, GDP per capita above europe

Also., imagine that

Nobody can come to catalonia because of borders. We, as former Spaniards, we would hold spanish citizenship because of birthright. I am all in about free movement, so I can travel, benefit of free healthcare, work everywhere in the EU And all 7.5 million of catalans as we hold spanish citizenship. But the EU can't? Sounds fair? is not, but sure we would benefit on that.

Imagine that we go out without the permission of Spain. Spanish debt says: "Kingdom of Spain", the creditors will go to Spain, not catalonia. Also, 80% of the regional debt is from Spain. Spain without a deal with Catalonia, would make Catalonia with 20% debt, arguably the lowest debt in Europe and Spain in tatters as already has 100% of the GDP, so it will be 125% (as Catalonia is around 25% of the GDP). That is without counting the regional debt, that would be tricky to add to the equation.

Also we would have extra 16 billions (0.5% of our overall GDP every year) that they take us away from our taxes to redistribute among the other regions


Sure we have to accept the consequences, to we have some aces under the sleeves too. We would suffer, specially in the beginning, but I have no doubt that we would do just fine. Enough fine that worth a try

 

[Javi]

In which way Scotland is more important/richer than Catalonia?

He's probably aiming at Scotland's oil reserves with that.

 

[giorno]

Anyone know what Pique is talking about in the tweet above ?

Saying they didn't want to play, club tried not to play but were ultimately "forced" by the league, commenting on the disgraceful response by the spanish authorities, mentioning how the catalan people acted well(no violence), how they have the right to vote, etc..finally mentioned he wants to play for Spain but if the federation doesn't want him anymore he'll gladly step aside

 

[4bars]

Going to Barcelona on Saturday with Ryanair

Get ready to have fun. I thought ryanair cancelled all the flight to Barcelona on October.

No, seriously, you picked the worse time. In 2 days approx. m our president will mostly declare the independence, also global strike. And is weekend, so people has free time. I forsee that is gonna be madness. Be safe and run from the police. If you have a problem go to Mossos (catalan police) they are in neutral position as the Spanish government don't trust them, but they can't go against Madrid government orders and side with the catalan government.

 

[Raoul]

Saying they didn't want to play, club tried not to play but were ultimately "forced" by the league, commenting on the disgraceful response by the spanish authorities, mentioning how the catalan people acted well(no violence), how they have the right to vote, etc..finally mentioned he wants to play for Spain but if the federation doesn't want him anymore he'll gladly step aside

Cool thanks.

 

[4bars]

He's probably aiming at Scotland's oil reserves with that.

Still GDP is lower. I lived in Scotland 1 year and a half, loved it and you ca live well, but you can't compare it with Catalonia. The economic structure is better and the infrastructures are better.

 

[Maxii]

Going to Barcelona on Saturday with Ryanair

Don't worry, sure they'll probably cancel that

 

[4bars]

International Observers says that Catalonia has to declare the independence. After observing horrified what happened the 1st of October. EU should step in in his opinion

 

[4bars]

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Spanish police all proud of his "job"

Disgusting, they don't have souls

 

[4bars]

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People making a safety cord for the police not to pass and pick the ballot boxes and running down the street

Other cases like taking them from the backwindows

And some other stories

Spanish government persuing ballot boxes and ballots in XXI century

Proud of my people, was amazing the coordination, the complicity, all united for what we want. Peacefully demand the right to decide our destiny against a repressive state

 

[Fener1907]

Can you tell me if the Kurds in Turkey moved there or was occupied by Turkey? Honest question I know you guys in the past used to beat the shit of everyone around but I really don’t know much about their history.

They've pretty much always existed around that region through whatever empire or state happened to be there at the time.

 

[carvajal]

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Spanish police all proud of his "job"

Disgusting, they don't have souls

Los mossos are usually very proud as well. In the next situations they did what the judge ordered, however yesterday they decided to be accomplice

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[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

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