Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[4bars]

I sincerely hope you're right. As said, we share similar history.

For me was never about economics, but as I said I am always drag in the same topic

With a lot of laws We are an inclusive territory (Barcelona, a year ago had 160.000 demonstration asking the spanish government for more refugees), we are pro/EU and we are hard workers and with that we can go far away even out of the EU

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They could but it would be a decision of Spanish federation and LaLiga. As I repeat, is not Barcelona decision at all. Anyway, is a price to pay and I would pay it happily even if barcelona would disappear

When push came to shove no way would La Liga dump Barca. Without Barca La Liga would decline significantly.

 

[4bars]

Because of incidents like these

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Oppressive states employ tactics like these and yet you shamelessly try to undermine both the severity and clear implication, the worst states do this to innocent & defenseless people. We are in Europe, where fascist regimes are a not so distant horror. Ask a local in Catalunya the difference between state police & Mossos, one you tremble from fear of while the other are human beings

Your affinities have been never been in doubt, supporting fascist tactics & spinning it is perfectly in line with that

Well, I must correct you in this. Anti riot Mossos they can be even worse. There is not much a difference. If we support them now, is because they are implicitely in our side now

 

[4bars]

When push came to shove no way would La Ligament dump Barca. Without Barca La Liga would decline significantly.

Is more than rationality. is about feelings and believe me, nobody would welcome Barcelona.

Also, would be shamefull from barcelona to play spanish league and lots of their local followers would turn their back on it. We would prefer any other league (and we would be better receive).

Any way I would like barcelona and a catalan league. even with less prestige

 

[4bars]

We are not talking about football but the EU. Monaco aren't members but they are still kind of members through France.

Because for exaple, if the king die without heirs, Monaco passes to be part of France. They are more entangled that you think, not completely separate states

 

[JPRouve]

Is more than rationality. is about feelings and believe me, nobody would welcome Barcelona.

Also, would be shamefull from barcelona to play spanish league and lots of their local followers would turn their back on it. We would prefer any other league (and we would be better receive).

Any way I would like barcelona and a catalan league. even with less prestige

You know that you want to be a member of the prestigious Ligue 1.

 

[4bars]

You know that you want to be a member of the prestigious Ligue 1.

Just to feck over neymar

 

[rcoobc]

Because of incidents like these

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Oppressive states employ tactics like these and yet you shamelessly try to undermine both the severity and clear implication, the worst states do this to innocent & defenseless people. We are in Europe, where fascist regimes are a not so distant horror. Ask a local in Catalunya the difference between state police & Mossos, one you tremble from fear of while the other are human beings

Your affinities have been never been in doubt, supporting fascist tactics & spinning it is perfectly in line with that

What actually happened there?

 

[4bars]

What actually happened there?

Rubber bullets are forbidded in Catalonia to use by the police (speaking about legality)

In Spain, where are permitted, rubber bullets has to be shot against the ground to make them lose speed when it impacts against the people. The first shot is not done that way, the second I think yes. (speaking about legality)

And basically, they are jerks, three people barely doing nothing and they shot when they were retreating

 

[JPRouve]

Because for exaple, if the king die without heirs, Monaco passes to be part of France. They are more entangled that you think, not completely separate states

Who is the prince of Catalunya? You are creating problems that don't exist, you could be a french protectorate(or any other country) and be members through them. When you think about Monaco, it's a pretty good deal because you do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt France, fiscally.

Obviously, it won't happen but what I'm trying to show is that there is an easy way to not be "alone".

Edit: French Polynesia is actually a far better example than Monaco.

 

[4bars]

Who is the prince of Catalunya? You are creating problems that don't exist, you could be a french protectorate(or any other country) and be members through them. When you think about Monaco, it's a pretty good deal because you do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt France, fiscally.

Obviously, it won't happen but what I'm trying to show is that there is an easy way to not be "alone".

Edit: French Polynesia is actually a far better example than Monaco.

Hahaha, we had one under Napoleon and he fecked us over. No thanks. And we want a republic.

And I lived in French Guyanna for a few months and meh, there is no more centralist state than france. and the worse, is full of french

 

[Cassady]

I was in Barce on Saturday visiting my Catalun friend and slept at a polling station which is a school . Very peaceful and lots of singing and food and drink. I decided to come back to France on the Sunday morning as had a feeling things would get nasty.

 

[Jim Beam]

Must say, some of the scenes were shocking and disgusting. Excessive use of police force almost on every footage. Hidden and justified by acting under the law, it doesn't make it any less illegal.

Just hoping that it won't become even more violent after this.

 

[JPRouve]

Hahaha, we had one under Napoleon and he fecked us over. No thanks. And we want a republic.

And I lived in French Guyanna for a few months and meh, there is no more centralist state than france. and the worse, is full of french

I understand the sentiment but you clearly have no clue about the subject, Guyana has nothing to do with it, it's an overseas department, it's France. While France is extremely centralist, it's also the one country with very autonomous territory one of them is French Polynesia, they have their own president, government, political system, currency and everything. It's basically what you want from Spain.

By the way, I'm not really serious that would be terrible from a diplomatic POV, Spain would probably declare war.

Edit: And Manuel Valls could finally become president.

 

[Ishdalar]

Because of incidents like these

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Oppressive states employ tactics like these and yet you shamelessly try to undermine both the severity and clear implication, the worst states do this to innocent & defenseless people. We are in Europe, where fascist regimes are a not so distant horror. Ask a local in Catalunya the difference between state police & Mossos, one you tremble from fear of while the other are human beings

Your affinities have been never been in doubt, supporting fascist tactics & spinning it is perfectly in line with that

Because of people like this

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Same way, when the Mossos were instructed to dissolve the protesters in 2011 they explained very well how law enforcement see "Passive resistance"


I'm guessing you understand Spanish, and that's even before people start using violence like throwing stones or kicking a Guardia Civil in the head while he's knocked on the floor.

But a lot of people seem unable to draw the line between what would be actual passive resistance (lie on the ground, and allow to be moved from the zone you're in) and resistance to authority (be asked to leave, refuse to leave, make it harder for law enforcement to put you aside and eventually shoving/pushing/grabbing the authorities).

You wouldn't push a policeman if he stops you for a speeding ticket right? Why do you think is "peaceful" to do it when he has an order to be in a spot and you put yourself into him and the spot to stop him?

 

[4bars]

I was in Barce on Saturday visiting my Catalun friend and slept at a polling station which is a school . Very peaceful and lots of singing and food and drink. I decided to come back to France on the Sunday morning as had a feeling things would get nasty.

Thanks for your collaboration nevertheless

How you could see how is the peaceful enviroment from our side

 

[4bars]

I understand the sentiment but you clearly have no clue about the subject, Guyana has nothing to do with it, it's an overseas department, it's France. While France is extremely centralist, it's also the one country with very autonomous territory one of them is French Polynesia, they have their own president, government, political system, currency and everything. It's basically what you want from Spain.

By the way, I'm not really serious that would be terrible from a diplomatic POV, Spain would probably declare war.

Edit: And Manuel Valls could finally become president.

I know you are not serious.

And basically, you know that you had not much choice with polinesya. Guyana is practically 95% jungle, and lots of people from the metropole.

Valls, fecking catalan traitor

 

[4bars]

Because of people like this

Tweet

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Same way, when the Mossos were instructed to dissolve the protesters in 2011 they explained very well how law enforcement see "Passive resistance"


I'm guessing you understand Spanish, and that's even before people start using violence like throwing stones or kicking a Guardia Civil in the head while he's knocked on the floor.

But a lot of people seem unable to draw the line between what would be actual passive resistance (lie on the ground, and allow to be moved from the zone you're in) and resistance to authority (be asked to leave, refuse to leave, make it harder for law enforcement to put you aside and eventually shoving/pushing/grabbing the authorities).

You wouldn't push a policeman if he stops you for a speeding ticket right? Why do you think is "peaceful" to do it when he has an order to be in a spot and you put yourself into him and the spot to stop him?

Yes, touching boobs, laughing at her and breaking her fingers one by one sure is how law enforcement works


Or that lovely kick (0:02)



Sure we need to "understand" how it works

Shameful, and the only ones that I have seen justifying it are spanish, not a single person of this forum or public personality

 

[4bars]

They want to scare us. This is Girona this afternoon

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They give me the chills


Global strike. The estibadors and an anarchist labour union, are going to concentrate in front of the PP building. It is starting. Hope everything goes as safe as possible

 

[4bars]

Spanish national team training suspended because of the insults. I think Pique will quit soon

 

[4bars]

People has the power

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[4bars]

The Hotels in Calella, they kicked out 500 policemen that they were sleeping on their rooms (No space in the boats)

 

[Jim Beam]

Because of people like this

Attacking police force in one place doesn't give them the right to use excessive force in another place/situation. This here would give them right to defend and act more aggressive but only in this particular situation.

But a lot of people seem unable to draw the line between what would be actual passive resistance (lie on the ground, and allow to be moved from the zone you're in) and resistance to authority (be asked to leave, refuse to leave, make it harder for law enforcement to put you aside and eventually shoving/pushing/grabbing the authorities).

You wouldn't push a policeman if he stops you for a speeding ticket right? Why do you think is "peaceful" to do it when he has an order to be in a spot and you put yourself into him and the spot to stop him?

If that was the nature of resistance (refuse to leave, make it harder for law enforcement to put you aside and so on) it doesn't give them any right to jump on people's head, fire straight rubber bullet into the person or just kick everything on your way including older people while they are laying on the ground. They are trained professionals who are capable to deal with such situation and must use a reasonable level of force which they didn't do by looking at most of the footage.

 

[4bars]

Attacking police force in one place doesn't give them the right to use excessive force in another place/situation. This here would give them right to defend and act more aggressive but only in this particular situation.



If that was the nature of resistance (refuse to leave, make it harder for law enforcement to put you aside and so on) it doesn't give them any right to jump on people's head, fire straight rubber bullet into the person or just kick everything on your way including older people while they are laying on the ground. They are trained professionals who are capable to deal with such situation and must use a reasonable level of force which they didn't do by looking at most of the footage.

This

Just a correction, they are precisely trained to be like that. To be the dogs of the government. Anti riot police are volunteers from the police corps that they are sadistic MF that like to hit people. There are more than one recorded conversations and social tweets that "I can't wait to hit some MF catalans" (from the Mossos I believe) from the "indignados" movement

So they are not trained to not hurt, quite the opposite.

 

[Ishdalar]

Yes, touching boobs, laughing at her and breaking her fingers one by one sure is how law enforcement works


Or that lovely kick (0:02)



Sure we need to "understand" how it works

Shameful, and the only ones that I have seen justifying it are spanish, not a single person of this forum or public personality

There's shameful displays in both ways, I already said yesterday in this same thread that the videos were you see the antidisturbs doing a flying kick or using the baton without excuse talk for themselves, I'm not saying you have to understand that because that's police brutality.

But to the concrete question of "why were law enforcers disolving people from their cars as they were leaving?" I can answer that one of the common things yesterday was chasing out the Guardia Civil/Policia and even throwing rocks. Again, you or other peaceful people has between their hobbies running after police cars and throwing rocks?

 

[Jim Beam]

This

Just a correction, they are precisely trained to be like that. To be the dogs of the government. Anti riot police are volunteers from the police corps that they are sadistic MF that like to hit people. There are more than one recorded conversations and social tweets that "I can't wait to hit some MF catalans" (from the Mossos I believe) from the "indignados" movement

So they are not trained to not hurt, quite the opposite.

It could be, but it's still illegal. At least it is in almost every country, I am sure it's the same in Spain.

 

[4bars]

There's shameful displays in both ways, I already said yesterday in this same thread that the videos were you see the antidisturbs doing a flying kick or using the baton without excuse talk for themselves, I'm not saying you have to understand that because that's police brutality.

But to the concrete question of "why were law enforcers disolving people from their cars as they were leaving?" I can answer that one of the common things yesterday was chasing out the Guardia Civil/Policia and even throwing rocks. Again, you or other peaceful people has between their hobbies running after police cars and throwing rocks?

I repeat, this is disgusting false equivalence, 99% are from the police and with much more force. Also we didn't go to the police, they came to us

I repeat, only spaniards are justifying that

 

[4bars]

It could be, but it's still illegal. At least it is in almost every country, I am sure it's the same in Spain.

Yes it is, but who cares.

The funny thing is that Spain said not to referendum for 2 reasons. Is illegal and economic expenditure of the organization (campaign, buying ballots and ballot boxes, etc...)

And they broke more laws and spend more money (and created more independentists) with all that police party that they organized

 

[Ban]

@Ishdalar, how many videos are there where people are throwing rocks at the police and how many where police is beating and dragging people around?

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Mossos vs Guardia Civil

http://www.youreporter.it/video_Polizia_contro_polizia_i_Mossos_affrontano_la_Guardia_Civil

 

[Ishdalar]

Attacking police force in one place doesn't give them the right to use excessive force in another place/situation. This here would give them right to defend and act more aggressive but only in this particular situation.



If that was the nature of resistance (refuse to leave, make it harder for law enforcement to put you aside and so on) it doesn't give them any right to jump on people's head, fire straight rubber bullet into the person or just kick everything on your way including older people while they are laying on the ground. They are trained professionals who are capable to deal with such situation and must use a reasonable level of force which they didn't do by looking at most of the footage.

So, as an untrained profesional that knows better than them, your orders are getting into a college and get to the ballot as a judge/government instructed you, you have dozens of people in front of you refusing to leave and ignoring your orders, when you try to shove them away they push you back, then you try to grab and pull them they cling to other people or objects to make it harder, even when you have managed to do that 2 or 3 times, you have a long way to go until you get to the ballot, how do you deal with a hundred people refusing to work with you while being pushed, grabbed, yelled and even thrown objects at?.

And again, I'm not arguing about the one that did a flying kick, that's why the police should have a visible ID number (that's another problem that existed in this country for years) so anyone could denounce him and make sure that guy doesn't work in law enforcement ever again, but for a lot of other things and situations where you see them overrun, what's the alternative, lay down their gear and say "we're done, we're gonna get fired let's get out of here"?

 

[Jim Beam]

Yes it is, but who cares.

The funny thing is that Spain said not to referendum for 2 reasons. Is illegal and economic expenditure of the organization (campaign, buying ballots and ballot boxes, etc...)

And they broke more laws and spend more money (and created more independentists) with all that police party that they organized

Will be honest, I'm not sure that I would even know about the referendum if there wasn't so much violence. Certainly, there wouldn't be so much attention. So, I really don't know why they thought this was an appropriate way to deal with the situation. It is fully counterproductive.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Andorra is playing in the spanish league and is solely because a deal with the federations

Andorra plays in Spain? Don't they have their own league?

 

[Ban]

So, as an untrained profesional that knows better than them, your orders are getting into a college and get to the ballot as a judge/government instructed you, you have dozens of people in front of you refusing to leave and ignoring your orders, when you try to shove them away they push you back, then you try to grab and pull them they cling to other people or objects to make it harder, even when you have managed to do that 2 or 3 times, you have a long way to go until you get to the ballot, how do you deal with a hundred people refusing to work with you while being pushed, grabbed, yelled and even thrown objects at?.

And again, I'm not arguing about the one that did a flying kick, that's why the police should have a visible ID number (that's another problem that existed in this country for years) so anyone could denounce him and make sure that guy doesn't work in law enforcement ever again, but for a lot of other things and situations where you see them overrun, what's the alternative, lay down their gear and say "we're done, we're gonna get fired let's get out of here"?

I guess you grab them and tow them by their hair. I don't know.

 

[Ishdalar]

I repeat, this is disgusting false equivalence, 99% are from the police and with much more force. Also we didn't go to the police, they came to us

I repeat, only spaniards are justifying that

No, you were between them and their orders to seize something that was illegal, would you interfere between the Police and a Narco mansion where he hauls all his drug because you think drugs shouldn't be illegal and everyone has the right to do with his body as he likes?.

You're only seeing Spaniards justifying some of those things because no other people with nothing on the line is gonna come here to swim against the tide on a topic that doesn't have any interest from them.

 

[Ishdalar]

Will be honest, I'm not sure that I would even know about the referendum if there wasn't so much violence. Certainly, there wouldn't be so much attention. So, I really don't know why they thought this was an appropriate way to deal with the situation. It is fully counterproductive.

Because the government are a bunch of empowered gorillas that think they not only govern the country, they rule it now and will remain doing it in the future.

These last months have been a fight between the Spanish gorillas and the Catalan snakes, both are the same kind of people, both use everything in their power to achieve their personal goals, and they are a bunch of liars immature enough to sit on a table and negotiate something beneficial for both parts if they can have police and civilians killing each other in the street.

 

[Rams]

This has been handled terribly. Those clips of police brutality against none violent citizens are shocking and a disaster for the Spanish government. You do worry what will happen next.

 

[Jim Beam]

So, as an untrained profesional that knows better than them, your orders are getting into a college and get to the ballot as a judge/government instructed you, you have dozens of people in front of you refusing to leave and ignoring your orders, when you try to shove them away they push you back, then you try to grab and pull them they cling to other people or objects to make it harder, even when you have managed to do that 2 or 3 times, you have a long way to go until you get to the ballot, how do you deal with a hundred people refusing to work with you while being pushed, grabbed, yelled and even thrown objects at?.

And again, I'm not arguing about the one that did a flying kick, that's why the police should have a visible ID number (that's another problem that existed in this country for years) so anyone could denounce him and make sure that guy doesn't work in law enforcement ever again, but for a lot of other things and situations where you see them overrun, what's the alternative, lay down their gear and say "we're done, we're gonna get fired let's get out of here"?

First of all, they didn't do anything as they manage to get only in some colleges and get to some of the ballots. The only thing they did achieve is that the whole world is looking at that and see police brutality.

How could they deal with it? Since it was known that referendum will take place, maybe they could get there first and closed it in the start before there were already hundreds of people. That way they're the one that has to be moved out of the place.
But since we live in the democratic world I'm pretty certain that the best way would be to allow that referendum and beat it with legal arguments if they can. Not police sticks and boots.

 

[Ban]

Damn old lady, she didn't let the police take the ballot, she got what she asked for. Right?

 

[Henrik Larsson]