Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[finneh]

Another thing is that there should be a preagreed threshold of majority because a situation that happened with Brexit isn't fair on a significant portion of the population that wanted to remain - imo an exit vote should only be applicable if an overwhelming majority vote for it say 66%?.

Totally disagree. Any majority is a good enough majority. The second you start setting thresholds you're perverting democracy.

They could possibly set a turnout threshold of say 70+% though.

 

[Jim Beam]

Because the government are a bunch of empowered gorillas that think they not only govern the country, they rule it now and will remain doing it in the future.

These last months have been a fight between the Spanish gorillas and the Catalan snakes, both are the same kind of people, both use everything in their power to achieve their personal goals, and they are a bunch of liars immature enough to sit on a table and negotiate something beneficial for both parts if they can have police and civilians killing each other in the street.

Unfortunately, it's always the same when you have this kind of situation looking at history. Really hope that common sense will prevail in the end.

 

[Cheesy]

Totally disagree. Any majority is a good enough majority. The second you start setting thresholds you're perverting democracy.

They could possibly set a turnout threshold of say 70+% though.

Yeah. I can see the difficulty in regards to a referendum because a significant constitutional change concerning the status of a nation if it passes with 50.2%, for example, is incredibly tenuous...but then if you put in a threshold and then that happens, the problems doesn't actually go away and continues to fester because the side that has won feel aggrieved and cheated. Which is sort of fair enough.

And while I can understand why some people may feel that the status quo should be given an advantage...those who advocate the 'change' option in referendum will inherently believe that the status quo isn't the correct option, and that any attempt to give the status quo an advantage is basically the side in power creating an unfair and unbalanced referendum that sways towards their favour.

 

[Silva]

They could possibly set a turnout threshold of say 70+% though.

That's even worse. The side set to lose doesn't turn out and the vote is voided.

 

[Ishdalar]

First of all, they didn't do anything as they manage to get only in some colleges and get to some of the ballots. The only thing they did achieve is that the whole world is looking at that and see police brutality.

How could they deal with it? Since it was known that referendum will take place, maybe they could get there first and closed it in the start before there were already hundreds of people. That way they're the one that has to be moved out of the place.
But since we live in the democratic world I'm pretty certain that the best way would be to allow that referendum and beat it with legal arguments if they can. Not police sticks and boots.

First, neither Police nor Guardia Civil (or both together) had the manpower to close every school before the vote started, they can only be in X points at the same time, they tried to avoid this days ago when they started the requisition of ballots and pro-referendum items, but it didn't work. Extending on that, the ballots weren't there before the referendum started, they reached the schools when people were already there to make sure they got in as you can see here

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Second, the legal arguments have been there for days, weeks, months and years and the Catalan government ignored the law and went ahead. This was the 3rd time they tried to get a referendum.

The first was in 2014, Artur Mas tried to do it and it was legally repelled by the constitutional Court. So Mas reaction was changing it from a referendum to a query
Second was last year 2016, after the failed referendum they used the election as a "de facto" referendum.
And this was the third time, that was ruled unconstitutional again but it didn't matter, even the fact that they wanted to use public money for the infraestructure to held this referendum was unconstitutional so they had to fund it "privately".


So, when you have a bunch of people that showed 3 times in 4 years that they don't give a damn about your constitution, when there's sentences against some of those people and all of that, and they keep heading towards the same way, what are you supposed to do? The legal way was depleted because the Catalan government has shown that they have 0 regards towards that.

That leads to a second question, "why isn't there a movement to change the constitution and allow that". Well because this already happened 13 years ago with the Basque country and that way finished with both Basques and Spanish getting to an agreement, second the PP and PSOE have been adamant about changing the constitution (bar the exception when they were forced by Europe) and even less to open a way to break what we now know as Spain, and lastly because the Catalan government have the momentum, have been building towards this for years and Rajoy/PP are the best chance they're gonna get to face a central government that's doomed to fail keeping Catalan interests relevant while being inept enough to fuel even more the independent feeling.

And to round it all, democratic world doesn't mean "We'll do whatever the hell we want, we just need to vote it and make it win", there was a constitution voted 40 years ago that won by an appaling 92%, IF the Catalan government goal was to change the constitution to be able to someday in the future held a legit referendum it would be one thing that, with time, could end up happening, but for the last 5 years they have shown more than enough times that for them the referencum is only a tool to their real goal, the independence of Catalunya, and they're going to try and achieve that goal either by a legal or non-legal way. As the Spanish government, why would you open the door to a referendum for people that, even with that door closed have held 3 different ones in just 4 years? It's clear that once you open that door you're going to eat referendums yearly until the results are the ones desired.

 

[Cheesy]

@Ishdalar If the Spanish government didn't intend to allow them to become independent, then simply allowing the vote to happen and declaring it invalid would've been a better option. Handling the situation in a more delicate and understanding manner, instead of sending in the police to essentially beat up their own citizens, would've put them in a more sympathetic situation as the central government. Instead they've managed to come across as incredibly oppressive and unwilling to even consider the idea that Catalonia may desire independence.

Irrespective of what the Spanish constitution may say, there's quite clearly a strong desire for independence among Catalans, and an even stronger desire for there to be a proper referendum. Simply ignoring that and pretending it isn't a thing isn't a particularly valid strategy.

 

[4bars]

So, as an untrained profesional that knows better than them, your orders are getting into a college and get to the ballot as a judge/government instructed you, you have dozens of people in front of you refusing to leave and ignoring your orders, when you try to shove them away they push you back, then you try to grab and pull them they cling to other people or objects to make it harder, even when you have managed to do that 2 or 3 times, you have a long way to go until you get to the ballot, how do you deal with a hundred people refusing to work with you while being pushed, grabbed, yelled and even thrown objects at?.

And again, I'm not arguing about the one that did a flying kick, that's why the police should have a visible ID number (that's another problem that existed in this country for years) so anyone could denounce him and make sure that guy doesn't work in law enforcement ever again, but for a lot of other things and situations where you see them overrun, what's the alternative, lay down their gear and say "we're done, we're gonna get fired let's get out of here"?

I would think that the work of the police is mainly to protect people not to persue ballots. There is a limit were the police can reach, and lots of the videos shows unnecessary use of force even, enjoying it.

My friend has a hotel, and they hosted GC, they kick them out today. The commander was crying, he said he couldnt resign, but most of his squad did. Of course they were not antiriot (they are rabid dogs). There is a limit on what the police can or can't do and that limit was crossed many times.

Normal people knows that was far from excesive and compare what isolated cases of the demonstrators to what they did is false equivalance and a ridiculous one

 

[4bars]

Will be honest, I'm not sure that I would even know about the referendum if there wasn't so much violence. Certainly, there wouldn't be so much attention. So, I really don't know why they thought this was an appropriate way to deal with the situation. It is fully counterproductive.

Yes, and that worked great for our purposes, but at a very high cost. And as well I would prefer a quite and normal referendum

 

[Ishdalar]

@Ishdalar If the Spanish government didn't intend to allow them to become independent, then simply allowing the vote to happen and declaring it invalid would've been a better option. Handling the situation in a more delicate and understanding manner, instead of sending in the police to essentially beat up their own citizens, would've put them in a more sympathetic situation as the central government. Instead they've managed to come across as incredibly oppressive and unwilling to even consider the idea that Catalonia may desire independence.

Irrespective of what the Spanish constitution may say, there's quite clearly a strong desire for independence among Catalans, and an even stronger desire for there to be a proper referendum. Simply ignoring that and pretending it isn't a thing isn't a particularly valid strategy.

Well, the government obviously fears a referendum because it would only empower the nationalist parties there. The premise is that who would vote in a referendum? Nationalists surely would, then there would be people in favour of Spain and, arguably the "invisible majority" as Spanish nationalists say would either not vote or vote null, the result would probably empower the argument that independence is the utmost priority thanks to 2/3 million "yes" votes, when in fact there would be a 4/5 million people that don't want it or simply don't care enough.

About the Catalan desire for independence, my view on that gets closer to what PSOE and some members of Podemos want, and it would be Spain turning into a federal state, that would help fulfill more than enough the autogovernment desires of historic regions (Catalunya, Basque Country and, to some extent of my knowledge, even Galicia). But there's no way we get Spain towards a federal model as long as PP and the military are watching like dogs the heritage of Franco.

Special mention to the Basque Country, who have their own article in the constitution that turns them into a "more or less" federal state than the rest of the autonomies, and that has ben irking Catalunya not just recently, for the past 30+ years

 

[4bars]

No, you were between them and their orders to seize something that was illegal, would you interfere between the Police and a Narco mansion where he hauls all his drug because you think drugs shouldn't be illegal and everyone has the right to do with his body as he likes?.

You're only seeing Spaniards justifying some of those things because no other people with nothing on the line is gonna come here to swim against the tide on a topic that doesn't have any interest from them.

We were there first and we said we would do that first, so no, they came to us. And without the information that we provided they would never know were we where, so yes, they came to us

Ok, so is because you have something to lose? So yes, I am sure Saddam Hussein was a poor guy that everybody was against him and they were the only ones having something to lose. So he was right? wasn't he?

No, everybody could see FROM A NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW, and the actions had been judged has despicable. period

 

[4bars]

Because the government are a bunch of empowered gorillas that think they not only govern the country, they rule it now and will remain doing it in the future.

These last months have been a fight between the Spanish gorillas and the Catalan snakes, both are the same kind of people, both use everything in their power to achieve their personal goals, and they are a bunch of liars immature enough to sit on a table and negotiate something beneficial for both parts if they can have police and civilians killing each other in the street.

Please, is not a battle with Spanish government against Catalan government. Is a battle with spanish government and catalan people. Despite the repression, 2.5 million went to vote. That if you are not calling snakes to ALL catalans.

This movement was started by the people AGAINST the president of Catalunya (Montilla and after Mas) and then They jumped on the train to not be overrunned.

Catalan politicians asked for that negociations and you know how spanish president is. No negotations. And logically we will not stay doing nothing

 

[4bars]

Lol, post thruth now. Thwy Are trying link Russia with catalonia? that is the most laughable idea ever.

And a coup is made by a small militarized group. Not millions of civilians. Mostly Spain tried to make a coup to the referendum

 

[4bars]

First of all, they didn't do anything as they manage to get only in some colleges and get to some of the ballots. The only thing they did achieve is that the whole world is looking at that and see police brutality.

How could they deal with it? Since it was known that referendum will take place, maybe they could get there first and closed it in the start before there were already hundreds of people. That way they're the one that has to be moved out of the place.
But since we live in the democratic world I'm pretty certain that the best way would be to allow that referendum and beat it with legal arguments if they can. Not police sticks and boots.

Difficult, thousand of families held the most of the places sleeping in since Friday. We anticipated to that scenario. And the once we could not enter, we went to another place

 

[Ishdalar]

Please, is not a battle with Spanish government against Catalan government. Is a battle with spanish government and catalan people. Despite the repression, 2.5 million went to vote. That if you are not calling snakes to ALL catalans.

This movement was started by the people AGAINST the president of Catalunya (Montilla and after Mas) and then They jumped on the train to not be overrunned.

Catalan politicians asked for that negociations and you know how spanish president is. No negotations. And logically we will not stay doing nothing

You can't disregard the role of the Catalan government here, I've seen them lying for years about even the most trivial matters, and the worst part is that I've seen people aligning with the independence saying the same lies their government was saying.

Even now, I could be a Catalan citizen and desire the independence of my country, but I wouldn't do it under these terms, I'm ashamed that millions of people keep putting their trust and votes in PP/PSOE at Spanish level, you're going to tell me that I shouldn't believe or be ashamed of how the equal Catalan scumbag politics have managed to get thousands of people to believe in their cause?.

Let me tell you something, humans are humans, and their poop doesn't smell better by being born/raised in a certain spot of the world, even less when they're raised in a 800km radius and under societies that while being different, still have the same core values and influences

 

[4bars]

@Ishdalar If the Spanish government didn't intend to allow them to become independent, then simply allowing the vote to happen and declaring it invalid would've been a better option. Handling the situation in a more delicate and understanding manner, instead of sending in the police to essentially beat up their own citizens, would've put them in a more sympathetic situation as the central government. Instead they've managed to come across as incredibly oppressive and unwilling to even consider the idea that Catalonia may desire independence.

Irrespective of what the Spanish constitution may say, there's quite clearly a strong desire for independence among Catalans, and an even stronger desire for there to be a proper referendum. Simply ignoring that and pretending it isn't a thing isn't a particularly valid strategy.

This

 

[Jim Beam]

First, neither Police nor Guardia Civil (or both together) had the manpower to close every school before the vote started, they can only be in X points at the same time, they tried to avoid this days ago when they started the requisition of ballots and pro-referendum items, but it didn't work. Extending on that, the ballots weren't there before the referendum started, they reached the schools when people were already there to make sure they got in as you can see here

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Second, the legal arguments have been there for days, weeks, months and years and the Catalan government ignored the law and went ahead. This was the 3rd time they tried to get a referendum.

The first was in 2014, Artur Mas tried to do it and it was legally repelled by the constitutional Court. So Mas reaction was changing it from a referendum to a query
Second was last year 2016, after the failed referendum they used the election as a "de facto" referendum.
And this was the third time, that was ruled unconstitutional again but it didn't matter, even the fact that they wanted to use public money for the infraestructure to held this referendum was unconstitutional so they had to fund it "privately".


So, when you have a bunch of people that showed 3 times in 4 years that they don't give a damn about your constitution, when there's sentences against some of those people and all of that, and they keep heading towards the same way, what are you supposed to do? The legal way was depleted because the Catalan government has shown that they have 0 regards towards that.

That leads to a second question, "why isn't there a movement to change the constitution and allow that". Well because this already happened 13 years ago with the Basque country and that way finished with both Basques and Spanish getting to an agreement, second the PP and PSOE have been adamant about changing the constitution (bar the exception when they were forced by Europe) and even less to open a way to break what we now know as Spain, and lastly because the Catalan government have the momentum, have been building towards this for years and Rajoy/PP are the best chance they're gonna get to face a central government that's doomed to fail keeping Catalan interests relevant while being inept enough to fuel even more the independent feeling.

And to round it all, democratic world doesn't mean "We'll do whatever the hell we want, we just need to vote it and make it win", there was a constitution voted 40 years ago that won by an appaling 92%, IF the Catalan government goal was to change the constitution to be able to someday in the future held a legit referendum it would be one thing that, with time, could end up happening, but for the last 5 years they have shown more than enough times that for them the referencum is only a tool to their real goal, the independence of Catalunya, and they're going to try and achieve that goal either by a legal or non-legal way. As the Spanish government, why would you open the door to a referendum for people that, even with that door closed have held 3 different ones in just 4 years? It's clear that once you open that door you're going to eat referendums yearly until the results are the ones desired.

I was just suggesting there were certainly better options than this. I know that democracy doesn't allow you to do whatever you want but if that referendum doesn't hold ground by Spanish constitution it's better to allow it and denied it legally. Basically, what @Cheesy also said. That's more democratic way of handling the problem for sure as this looks like excessive repression and brutality. By acting this way separation movement only gained more support and even more sentiment around the world. It seems like the government chose the worst option and I don't see much logic behind it or things getting better in the future.

Don't fight fire with fire, it will only get worse.

 

[Ishdalar]

Lol, post thruth now. Thwy Are trying link Russia with catalonia? that is the most laughable idea ever.

And a coup is made by a small militarized group. Not millions of civilians. Mostly Spain tried to make a coup to the referendum

No it's not, and I'm not saying with this that the Catalan thing is a coup, but the definition of coup d'état doesn't recognize that it only happens via militar force

A coup d'état (/ˌkuː deɪˈtɑː/ listen (help·info); French: [ku.de.ta]), also known simply as a coup (/kuː/), a putsch(/pʊtʃ/), golpe de estado, or an overthrow, is the illegal and overt seizure of a state by the military or other elites within the state apparatus

The fact that it always happens related to the military (because the military is usually the second biggest power in a country behind politics) doesn't mean that it has to include the military, a lot of people or nations see in Paraguay something that is considered a Coup

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Fernando_Lugo

 

[Vato]

@Ishdalar, how many videos are there where people are throwing rocks at the police and how many where police is beating and dragging people around?

How much time do you think the police has to film events that happened against them? Or how many catalans are going to film their peers attacking the police and putting it online?

Christ, I agree that there was a lot of excessive force and police brutality but not every policeman is a sadistic psycho trying to beat the shit out of every catalan person they encounter ffs. If you honestly believe that then I don't know what to say. Don't forget that you're only going to see the worst events of what happened yesterday. A bit of objectivity wouldn't hurt here.

 

[4bars]

You can't disregard the role of the Catalan government here, I've seen them lying for years about even the most trivial matters, and the worst part is that I've seen people aligning with the independence saying the same lies their government was saying.

Even now, I could be a Catalan citizen and desire the independence of my country, but I wouldn't do it under these terms, I'm ashamed that millions of people keep putting their trust and votes in PP/PSOE at Spanish level, you're going to tell me that I shouldn't believe or be ashamed of how the equal Catalan scumbag politics have managed to get thousands of people to believe in their cause?.

Let me tell you something, humans are humans, and their poop doesn't smell better by being born/raised in a certain spot of the world, even less when they're raised in a 800km radius and under societies that while being different, still have the same core values and influences

Oh, I do not disregard the role of the government, but while PP is not been asked to do what they are doing, the catalan government is asked to do what is doing. Is a huge difference.

POliticians will lie, no matter which colour there are, we agree in that.

Catalan scumbags politics maybe they brought thousands in belive in the cause but PP brought hundreds of thousands.

And I agree about humans, that is why I do not know the spanish government is so in to meddle in a society that wants to have their regulations in peace like in the statute of 2006. If they would not do that, everything would be fine.

Catalan politicians are one of the causes, but PP is the big main cause. And you know that. They did not do anything straight since 2006

 

[4bars]

No it's not, and I'm not saying with this that the Catalan thing is a coup, but the definition of coup d'état doesn't recognize that it only happens via militar force

A coup d'état (/ˌkuː deɪˈtɑː/ listen (help·info); French: [ku.de.ta]), also known simply as a coup (/kuː/), a putsch(/pʊtʃ/), golpe de estado, or an overthrow, is the illegal and overt seizure of a state by the military or other elites within the state apparatus

The fact that it always happens related to the military (because the military is usually the second biggest power in a country behind politics) doesn't mean that it has to include the military, a lot of people or nations see in Paraguay something that is considered a Coup

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Fernando_Lugo

wiikipedia? lol

Lets go with britannica

Coup d’état, also called Coup, the sudden, violent overthrow of an existing government by a small group. The chief prerequisite for a coup is control of all or part of the armed forces, the police, and other military elements. Unlike a revolution, which is usually achieved by large numbers of people working for basic social, economic, and political change, a coup is a change in power from the top that merely results in the abrupt replacement of leading government personnel. A coup rarely alters a nation’s fundamental social and economic policies, nor does it significantly redistribute power among competing political groups. Among the earliest modern coups were those in which Napoleon overthrew the Directory on Nov. 9, 1799 (18 Brumaire), and in which Louis Napoleon dissolved the assembly of France’s Second Republic in 1851. Coups were a regular occurrence in various Latin American nations in the 19th and 20th centuries and in Africa after the countries there gained independence in the 1960s.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/coup-detat

We are not a small group
We are not militarized
Is not sudden (7 years)
Is not violent

We are a revolution

 

[Ishdalar]

Oh, I do not disregard the role of the government, but while PP is not been asked to do what they are doing, the catalan government is asked to do what is doing. Is a huge difference.

POliticians will lie, no matter which colour there are, we agree in that.

Catalan scumbags politics maybe they brought thousands in belive in the cause but PP brought hundreds of thousands.

And I agree about humans, that is why I do not know the spanish government is so in to meddle in a society that wants to have their regulations in peace like in the statute of 2006. If they would not do that, everything would be fine.

Catalan politicians are one of the causes, but PP is the big main cause. And you know that. They did not do anything straight since 2006

You really think a lot of the people who voted for the PP don't want to see Rajoy sending GC/Policia to Catalunya to stop it? And that if it was on their hands the use of force would even be greater and the whole thing turn into a bloody mess?.

What hurts me most about this is that this violence won't bring anything good, as long as the PP is in power even the military will remain an option to stop Catalunya from seceding, and knowing this country this will fuel more votes for the PP in the next elections because they want to kill this thing with brute force, not negotiating.

PP and the kind of people that vote for them? I knew long ago they're mostly a bunch of assholes, but watching the Catalan politicians disregard a more subtle and long term way to fix this things makes me even madder, they're on a self-righteous crusade that at least will do the same damage as the PP between Gibraltar and the Pyrinees

 

[4bars]

How much time do you think the police has to film events that happened against them? Or how many catalans are going to film their peers attacking the police and putting it online?

Christ, I agree that there was a lot of excessive force and police brutality but not every policeman is a sadistic psycho trying to beat the shit out of every catalan person they encounter ffs. If you honestly believe that then I don't know what to say. Don't forget that you're only going to see the worst events of what happened yesterday. A bit of objectivity wouldn't hurt here.

You refer at that?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKJx9ccXoAA8qDM.jpg

Spare me the crying, you that acuse us to be victims.

So you prefer no videos for accountability? I bet that is what you would like. Like some GC hitting journalist yesterday or kicking out an international observer

Not every police is s sadistic MF. My ex basketball team we had 5 Mosso. 4 nice, one a bit of an asshole, but passable. I explained here, the GC that were hosted, they were crying today and some even resigned.

But the ones that they use brutal force, they are sadistic psychos and you know it.

And yes, of course the worst evens are what they make the news, but believe me, my friends are in catalonia and my whatsapp groups were flooded with dozens, DOZENS of this kinds of videos, and others that I saw in the media.

Was a massacre, they came to scare us and they did it on purpose. they thought it would work like a normal demonstration but is an entire society united. We are not "perroflautas" is our granpas, granmas, parents brothers and sisters. We are ALL there.

 

[Ishdalar]

wiikipedia? lol

Lets go with britannica

Coup d’état, also called Coup, the sudden, violent overthrow of an existing government by a small group. The chief prerequisite for a coup is control of all or part of the armed forces, the police, and other military elements. Unlike a revolution, which is usually achieved by large numbers of people working for basic social, economic, and political change, a coup is a change in power from the top that merely results in the abrupt replacement of leading government personnel. A coup rarely alters a nation’s fundamental social and economic policies, nor does it significantly redistribute power among competing political groups. Among the earliest modern coups were those in which Napoleon overthrew the Directory on Nov. 9, 1799 (18 Brumaire), and in which Louis Napoleon dissolved the assembly of France’s Second Republic in 1851. Coups were a regular occurrence in various Latin American nations in the 19th and 20th centuries and in Africa after the countries there gained independence in the 1960s.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/coup-detat

We are not a small group
We are not militarized
Is not sudden (7 years)
Is not violent

We are a revolution

You want to play dictionaries now?
coup d'état

[koo dey-tah; French koo dey-ta]

• Synonyms
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun, plural coups d'état

[koo dey-tahz; French koo dey-ta](Show IPA)
1.
a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in achange of government illegally or by force.

You're starting to reminisce me of the Fascists in Spain "It wasn't a Coup, it was a National Uprising".

 

[4bars]

You really think a lot of the people who voted for the PP don't want to see Rajoy sending GC/Policia to Catalunya to stop it? And that if it was on their hands the use of force would even be greater and the whole thing turn into a bloody mess?.

What hurts me most about this is that this violence won't bring anything good, as long as the PP is in power even the military will remain an option to stop Catalunya from seceding, and knowing this country this will fuel more votes for the PP in the next elections because they want to kill this thing with brute force, not negotiating.

PP and the kind of people that vote for them? I knew long ago they're mostly a bunch of assholes, but watching the Catalan politicians disregard a more subtle and long term way to fix this things makes me even madder, they're on a self-righteous crusade that at least will do the same damage as the PP between Gibraltar and the Pyrinees

I think several people wants that but I hope (please) that not 10 million voters


More long term? 7 years asking mate since the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal. How long term do you want it? SERIOUSLY! tell me! it is very easy to:

- more dialogue:tried already
- long term: 7 years (not counting on many month of negociating the statute that we modified first to make PSOE happy, and 4 years between the approval (2006) and the Tribunal decision (2010)
- You shouldn't do that: easy to say that, not that easy of WHAT SHOULD DO and specially REALISTIC!

 

[Cheesy]

Well, the government obviously fears a referendum because it would only empower the nationalist parties there. The premise is that who would vote in a referendum? Nationalists surely would, then there would be people in favour of Spain and, arguably the "invisible majority" as Spanish nationalists say would either not vote or vote null, the result would probably empower the argument that independence is the utmost priority thanks to 2/3 million "yes" votes, when in fact there would be a 4/5 million people that don't want it or simply don't care enough.

About the Catalan desire for independence, my view on that gets closer to what PSOE and some members of Podemos want, and it would be Spain turning into a federal state, that would help fulfill more than enough the autogovernment desires of historic regions (Catalunya, Basque Country and, to some extent of my knowledge, even Galicia). But there's no way we get Spain towards a federal model as long as PP and the military are watching like dogs the heritage of Franco.

Special mention to the Basque Country, who have their own article in the constitution that turns them into a "more or less" federal state than the rest of the autonomies, and that has ben irking Catalunya not just recently, for the past 30+ years

Err...the nationalist parties are already empowered. There's not much that can be done to stop that at this point. In fact, the way the government are currently handling the situation is only serving to further empower the nationalists, by giving more and more legitimacy to their narrative that they're being oppressed by a central Spanish government unwilling to listen to the Catalans.

And for as an actual referendum, if the Catalan people knew it had genuine stakes regarding their future then you'd see a high turnout on both sides. I don't want to directly compare the situations because I'm aware the context differs massively, but in the 2014 Scottish referendum No voters still turned out in spite of the Yes campaign's momentum and seemingly greater pull online etc. And if they weren't to do so in Catalonia...well, that'd be a more genuine reason for Catalonia to be granted its independence since it'd indicate nationalists are keener on independence than No voters would be for remaining within Spain.

 

[4bars]

You want to play dictionaries now?
coup d'état

[koo dey-tah; French koo dey-ta]

• Synonyms
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun, plural coups d'état

[koo dey-tahz; French koo dey-ta](Show IPA)
1.
a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in achange of government illegally or by force.

You're starting to reminisce me of the Fascists in Spain "It wasn't a Coup, it was a National Uprising".

SUDDEN mate, SUDDEN. the coup of Franco was sudden.

And please, compare thesaurus and wikipedia with Brittanica is like compare me a Guardia Civil speach level with la RAE (sorry for the pun ...really intended)

Not the same

And you know a coup what it is and this is not and is just a posttruth that you swallowed from the unionist media.

God you are skewed, I am too! but I am trying to be careful

 

[Cheesy]

How much time do you think the police has to film events that happened against them? Or how many catalans are going to film their peers attacking the police and putting it online?

Christ, I agree that there was a lot of excessive force and police brutality but not every policeman is a sadistic psycho trying to beat the shit out of every catalan person they encounter ffs. If you honestly believe that then I don't know what to say. Don't forget that you're only going to see the worst events of what happened yesterday. A bit of objectivity wouldn't hurt here.

I don't think any person would argue this, but there was a lot of genuinely unsettling footage that came out yesterday considering Spain's a fairly advanced Western democracy. Irrespective of whether we were only seeing a sample that was then exaggerated or not, it remains unacceptable and fairly indefensible.

 

[4bars]

Well, the government obviously fears a referendum because it would only empower the nationalist parties there. The premise is that who would vote in a referendum? Nationalists surely would, then there would be people in favour of Spain and, arguably the "invisible majority" as Spanish nationalists say would either not vote or vote null, the result would probably empower the argument that independence is the utmost priority thanks to 2/3 million "yes" votes, when in fact there would be a 4/5 million people that don't want it or simply don't care enough.

About the Catalan desire for independence, my view on that gets closer to what PSOE and some members of Podemos want, and it would be Spain turning into a federal state, that would help fulfill more than enough the autogovernment desires of historic regions (Catalunya, Basque Country and, to some extent of my knowledge, even Galicia). But there's no way we get Spain towards a federal model as long as PP and the military are watching like dogs the heritage of Franco.

Special mention to the Basque Country, who have their own article in the constitution that turns them into a "more or less" federal state than the rest of the autonomies, and that has ben irking Catalunya not just recently, for the past 30+ years

The invisible majority, always that they organized a demonstration were tops 10.000 and blamed the rain

It was simple 5 years ago. Agree to a referendum with the condition to not held another in...40 years? they would won. Now is not that sure anymore, specially after yesterday.

PSOE federalism is an utter lie that they say to make people vote. They had 15 years to do it....then 8 years more. NOTHING, is a LIE

 

[Ishdalar]

I think several people wants that but I hope (please) that not 10 million voters


More long term? 7 years asking mate since the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal. How long term do you want it? SERIOUSLY! tell me! it is very easy to:

- more dialogue:tried already
- long term: 7 years (not counting on many month of negociating the statute that we modified first to make PSOE happy, and 4 years between the approval (2006) and the Tribunal decision (2010)
- You shouldn't do that: easy to say that, not that easy of WHAT SHOULD DO and specially REALISTIC!

This hasn't been a dialogue for the last 5 years since Mas started the referendum idea, this has been an exchange of threats. I remember Felipe Gonzalez back in 2014 saying that both leaders needed to sit down and talk, and neither of them wanted to talk anymore at that point.

And if I was in charge of trying to get a referendum in the future for Catalunya then surely a direct confrontation against the PP wouldn't be my course of action until I have burned every bridge before, the first one would be undermining the PP government by trying to be closer with PSOE/Podemos to rise PSOE to the power, even if would mean lying about your objectives, they've been lying for years, what's another lie going to weight in a bucket full of them).

But a direct confrontation against the PP is the best course of action if you want votes and power for now, and not the next 4 or 8 years

 

[4bars]

This hasn't been a dialogue for the last 5 years since Mas started the referendum idea, this has been an exchange of threats. I remember Felipe Gonzalez back in 2014 saying that both leaders needed to sit down and talk, and neither of them wanted to talk anymore at that point.

And if I was in charge of trying to get a referendum in the future for Catalunya then surely a direct confrontation against the PP wouldn't be my course of action until I have burned every bridge before, the first one would be undermining the PP government by trying to be closer with PSOE/Podemos to rise PSOE to the power, even if would mean lying about your objectives, they've been lying for years, what's another lie going to weight in a bucket full of them).

But a direct confrontation against the PP is the best course of action if you want votes and power for now, and not the next 4 or 8 years

There was no dialogue because Rajoy said no all the time

Felipe Gonzalez is a real sneak, how he aligns always with PP nowadays how he betrayed Pedro Sanchez, A sentece of Felipe Gonzalez says. "Say always no, Always no and at the last moment when tension is about to break everything, offer peanuts". Of course he says negociate...to offer peanuts. Hell no

PSOE is exactly the same as PP man, you know that is like Canovas del Castillo and the other that I don't remember at the end of the XIX century that they were turning on the power completely accorded. Same shit different colour. And Podemos simply they will never have a majority because Spain is too conservative and nothing assures you it would work. There are too many right wing people that ALWAYS vote and ALWAYS vote PP and you know it.

the current ones are not lying. they are doing what they said they would do. Pujol and Mas yes, no different with the spaniards. The current ones are freaking fanatics for the independence

 

[Ishdalar]

SUDDEN mate, SUDDEN. the coup of Franco was sudden.

And please, compare thesaurus and wikipedia with Brittanica is like compare me a Guardia Civil speach level with la RAE (sorry for the pun ...really intended)

Not the same

And you know a coup what it is and this is not and is just a posttruth that you swallowed from the unionist media.

God you are skewed, I am too! but I am trying to be careful

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_of_the_Spanish_Civil_War#The_.22two_black_years.22

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjurjada

A sudden coup that was in the making since 1932 with an already failed coup behind it, even in 1935 CEDA started moving key pieces in the military with the sight of needing people like Franco in a future coup, Alfonso XII got money and weapons from Mussolini preparing a coup, in February there was an attempt from the military to overthrow the government threatening to use force when Frente Nacional won the election, which prompted a reaction to put Azaña in power sooner and forming a government with leftists ministers and relocating key military officials through the country to break the conspiracy until the coup finally happened in July.

So yeah, the Spanish coup, a sudden overthrow, as sudden and inexpected as the sun rising again in the morning

Yet, you're the one playing definitions and telling me what a coup is and how it's a "sudden" thing?. You might try to give terrorism a concrete and simple definition too, but seeing how you drag the RAE here

golpe de Estado

1. m. Actuación violenta y rápida, generalmente por fuerzas militares o rebeldes, por la que un grupo determinado se apodera o intentaapoderarse de los resortes del gobierno de un Estado, desplazando a las autoridades existentes.

"Generally" isn't an absolut as far as I know.

I might be skewed, but I'm skewed to keep an open mind and remain as objective as I can while not marrying with certain ideologies or preconceptions. Why is always the people with certain fixed views about history and the things they believe the first ones to talk about how skewed the rest of the world is?

 

[Vato]

Yes, touching boobs, laughing at her and breaking her fingers one by one sure is how law enforcement works

Shameful, and the only ones that I have seen justifying it are spanish, not a single person of this forum or public personality

Do you mean this same woman filmed 10 minutes later with not a single broken finger?
http://casoaislado.com/la-mujer-den...s-dedos-aparece-sin-vendajes-sin-dedos-rotos/

Because many of them don't half exagerate in an attempt to portray the GC even in worse light.

But I guess feigning injury is a cultural trait over there. No wonder there's so many injured when a small thrown water bottle almost took out 5 of their athletes who're in peak physical condition last season.

Again, not condoning any real brutality like kicks and stomps that were thrown on sunday, especially against elderly people, that's truly disgraceful and has no place here in a democracy. But I suspect that a lot of these injured people received their "injuries" by being dragged out of buildings.

Just saying that we should keep our eyes open to both sides. There's lots of people with agendas around now that the world is watching.

I sincerely hope they get their independence and feck off. Spanish flag burning weirdos.

 

[Revan]

You can't disregard the role of the Catalan government here, I've seen them lying for years about even the most trivial matters, and the worst part is that I've seen people aligning with the independence saying the same lies their government was saying.

Even now, I could be a Catalan citizen and desire the independence of my country, but I wouldn't do it under these terms, I'm ashamed that millions of people keep putting their trust and votes in PP/PSOE at Spanish level, you're going to tell me that I shouldn't believe or be ashamed of how the equal Catalan scumbag politics have managed to get thousands of people to believe in their cause?.

Let me tell you something, humans are humans, and their poop doesn't smell better by being born/raised in a certain spot of the world, even less when they're raised in a 800km radius and under societies that while being different, still have the same core values and influences

The only thing the Catalonia government did wrong here was to authorise the referendum without 2/3s of the votes in the parliament (far less important things need 2/3s of the votes in the parliament). Breaking the constitution isn't a problem, they tried quite a bit to negotiate but Madrid wasn't interested on doing it, so they had to break the constitution.

 

[FCBarca]

Spanish national team training suspended because of the insults. I think Pique will quit soon

He should, can you imagine the scrutiny when the anthem is played - is he to take a knee? Seems the right time to move on

 

[finneh]

And to round it all, democratic world doesn't mean "We'll do whatever the hell we want, we just need to vote it and make it win", there was a constitution voted 40 years ago that won by an appaling 92%, IF the Catalan government goal was to change the constitution to be able to someday in the future held a legit referendum it would be one thing that, with time, could end up happening, but for the last 5 years they have shown more than enough times that for them the referendum is only a tool to their real goal, the independence of Catalunya, and they're going to try and achieve that goal either by a legal or non-legal way. As the Spanish government, why would you open the door to a referendum for people that, even with that door closed have held 3 different ones in just 4 years? It's clear that once you open that door you're going to eat referendums yearly until the results are the ones desired.

Could you imagine the UK Government taking this stance to UK territories over the past hundred years? Half of the globe would currently be in a state of civil war. The more belligerent the stance by the Spanish Government, the more likely things will head that way.

Democracy doesn't mean doing whatever the hell you want. However it does mean giving the people a say in determining their own future. The logical thing for the Spanish Government to do as I previously stated would be to allow a referendum but set out a positive campaign for remaining as part of Spain, possibly with more devolved powers.

In terms of the bolded this is why you have a proper dialogue. The reason civil rights activists in America ended up having to break the rules and partake in "non-legal" activities was because their voices were not being heard. Could you imagine someone in this day and age referring to the actions of Rosa Parks in a negative light as she was not complying with the laws and practices of her State at the time? Naturally the two aren't comparable but the point is when the Government isn't listening to the people there tends to be a natural progression of protest. It starts completely peaceful and political, but ends up violent.

So in answer to your question "why would you open the door to a referendum", it's because the a democratic Government doesn't really have a choice and rightly so. If they don't allow one the protests will get more and more aggressive - the people have a right to determine their own future and if the Spanish Government is repressing that right then the people will take it by force.

 

[PedroMendez]

I think several people wants that but I hope (please) that not 10 million voters


More long term? 7 years asking mate since the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal. How long term do you want it? SERIOUSLY! tell me! it is very easy to:

- more dialogue:tried already
- long term: 7 years (not counting on many month of negociating the statute that we modified first to make PSOE happy, and 4 years between the approval (2006) and the Tribunal decision (2010)
- You shouldn't do that: easy to say that, not that easy of WHAT SHOULD DO and specially REALISTIC!

When people want independence so badly, they could have voted in much bigger numbers for parties that actually support this objective. Yet they only ended up shy of 50%. When the electorate wasnt actually overwhelmingly in favour of independence, it's not democratic or fair "to go nuclear". The reason why the local government still did it (and why local activists supported it) is because they knew that this is going to help them achieve their goals, while less confrontational tactics probably wouldn't.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

That's even worse. The side set to lose doesn't turn out and the vote is voided.

This could easily be sidestepped though. For instance you could set the minimum yes vote at >50% of votes so long as that constituted >35% of all eligible voters.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

As the Spanish government, why would you open the door to a referendum for people that, even with that door closed have held 3 different ones in just 4 years? It's clear that once you open that door you're going to eat referendums yearly until the results are the ones desired.

So why not stipulate in the rules of any legal referendum that if the result is negative no further referendum can be held for X amount of years?

 

[Ban]

How much time do you think the police has to film events that happened against them? Or how many catalans are going to film their peers attacking the police and putting it online?

Christ, I agree that there was a lot of excessive force and police brutality but not every policeman is a sadistic psycho trying to beat the shit out of every catalan person they encounter ffs. If you honestly believe that then I don't know what to say. Don't forget that you're only going to see the worst events of what happened yesterday. A bit of objectivity wouldn't hurt here.

Please quote me where I wrote 'every policeman is a sadistic psycho'. Thanks.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Do you mean this same woman filmed 10 minutes later with not a single broken finger?
http://casoaislado.com/la-mujer-den...s-dedos-aparece-sin-vendajes-sin-dedos-rotos/

Because many of them don't half exagerate in an attempt to portray the GC even in worse light.

But I guess feigning injury is a cultural trait over there. No wonder there's so many injured when a small thrown water bottle almost took out 5 of their athletes who're in peak physical condition last season.

Again, not condoning any real brutality like kicks and stomps that were thrown on sunday, especially against elderly people, that's truly disgraceful and has no place here in a democracy. But I suspect that a lot of these injured people received their "injuries" by being dragged out of buildings.

Just saying that we should keep our eyes open to both sides. There's lots of people with agendas around now that the world is watching.

I sincerely hope they get their independence and feck off. Spanish flag burning weirdos.

Sorry, but after what happened on sunday, this is just taking the piss. Should we talk about Ramos and cry baby CR7?