It was an extremely poor choice of words after that performance though. Extremely poor!
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Indeed. The winning part is the most important. In fact, it is the be all and end all.
Are you seriously saying that our squad was comparable to MCFC's, when Jose took over?
This has to be a WUM post. If not, I will explain, though I am sure you can find news articles on how our squad compared to MCFC's, at the time when LVG quit.
With City, one could see a move towards a specific style which was causing errors as players got used to it. There's nothing like that with us.
Surely you can see through it? OK, here is another fact. In the same era he is describing, we won 1 CL and got to 2 other finals in the space of 4 years.
I'm not complaining about going out, it happens. What most of us, especially the ones having to see through the shite on Tuesday, are saying is we went down playing cautious, horrendous football.
He can't compare that performance to the one he is eluding to (v his Madrid), because:
a) we played those 2 legs with controlled attacking aggression and passion. We played to score an away goal, and should have scored more.
b) it was Madrid FFS, players like Benezma, Modric and erm Ronaldo.
Even comparing the 2, is much like his tactics, embarassing.
There was a gulf in quality in terms of the squads. Ours needed a lot more work. I think our fullbacks still being Valencia and Young is kind of a symbol of that.
Yet HE hasn't addressed the issue. Still playing Jones, Smalling etc.
With the money both clubs have spent, we should be MUCH closer. I couldn't give a feck about which squad looked better on paper etc. He has been given a boat load of money, and hasn't addressed some of the major issues in the squad.
At the time people said that it just wouldn’t work in the PL, not that the players were just getting used to it.
I think, there has been a progression in how we break teams down who sit deep against us which was a problem last year, but we are having problems with efficiency in our counters and transitions (especially away from home). Someone like Sanchez was bought in to play into that style but it hasn’t clicked yet obviously. He fixed our home form and breaking teams down, I have faith he can fix our transitions as well. He has done it with his other teams and with the fullbacks and CM he desires I think we will see a clear improvement.
I am very patient, I am the same with the players at the club. Sevilla is bitterly dissapointing but I know we can move forward.
portuguese sam allardyce
That doesn't matter, the style being implemented was evident. There's nothing of that sort with us which is why it's disingenuous to say we are where City were last season.
Right, you have to consider that half of Mourinho’s spend is on Pogba and Lukaku. The equivalent at City being Aguero and de Bruyne who were already there. Obviously Pogba’s time here hasn’t been as good as we all want but the rebuild of our squad was always going to take a bit longer.
We have been behind City for a while and Moyes and van Gaal did us no favours. Mourinho really has no excuse next year if he can get his fullbacks and CM’s to replace Carrick and Fellaini. The team will be very much his going into the 3rd year.
You are totally going on tangent and putting together all the criticisms of performances and then relating it with quote and force fitting what you want to see in it. Here is another fact. One of the match he described, we had gone out to Porto and then had 2 more bad years in CL, going out in group stage one year, finishing last. The team which went out to Real Madrid was at different level of cohesion and maturity to this. If anything we are more closer to rebuild which was needed in 2004-06 (don't tell me have spent more than in 2004-06, game has moved on and everybody is spending loads compared to that time).
If you are concerned about performance more, it has nothing to do with quote, with which Mourinho meant that "going out is disappointing but not a never seen before thing." It is ridiculous to think that by that he means and thinks this is what we should expect forever going forward and that he doesn't care.
I kind of went into that later in the post? In terms of what style we want to bring?
How could we be working towards a specific style when we change our approach to a reactive one at the first sight of quality/situation/name? Mourinho has always been a reactive manager mind so it's not surprising and probably even weird to expect him to change.
You just need to have seen how the voting had changed over the past few weeks. It had moved in a positive direction after the Chelsea & Liverpool games. Just shows how reactionary half our supporters are. If we had progressed in the CL, it would be looking even better than ever and more people would be starting to get on board the Mourinho train. Literally one game has moved the opinion from "we're getting there" to "burn the place down".
Well, IMO, Jose was to blame for that match result.
In saying that, just because we went out of the CL, having got to the last 16 for the first time in several years, does not mean that Jose is not the right man.
I am fully behind our players and manager who as a team, are getting better every year.
There is clear progression compared to last season and I expect further progression next season.
Some of the younger fans in here, need to learn that when teams progress, the progression can take time.
I have seen a time when back in the early 90s, MUFC were whipping boys of the CL. When teams needed an easy win, they'd play us and we'd get beat. I saw Barca (which included Romario), put 4 goals past us (I think it was).
I also watched as we improved and learnt as a team (fans, players and manager), how to improve and push into the latter stages of the CL. I also saw that some 6 years later, we won the CL.
I also later learned that for the first 4-odd years, SAF's MUFC were not impressive, were going nowhere and he hung onto his job by the skin of his teeth.
For the youngsters out there, who expect results immediately - this won't happen. During the Moyes/LVG era, we went backwards. Our team lost the winning mentality. Jose has come in and is slowly changing the mentality of players.
In his first season he won 2 trophies - more trophies in his first season at MUFC than any other MUFC manager managed in their 1st season.
In his 2nd year, he is cementing 2nd place. The highest league position, since SAF departed....beaten only by a record breaking MCFC side.
Get behind the manager and our players. By all means, shout ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK! Give our players the backing and confidence that we want to see them put a team to the sword and as humans, they will most likely attempt to do so.
But to suggest that players should be sold or manager sacked is short sighted and shows absolutely no forward thinking or intelligent planning.
If Jose were to leave in the Summer, the new manager would need at least 18 months or so, to adapt his team to his own playing style. This would mean another 2 years (minimum) of transition and not winning the title. Jose on the other hand, is ready to challenge for the title next year, as he already (for the most part), has the team of his choice in place.
It is possible to be effective in two ways? Like I said, being able to break teams down who sit deep and being able to transition well from deeper areas can be very efficient. It is clear that our transitions are lacking though. That’s what we need to be working on for next season. I think the fullbacks in particular will be of focus for obvious reasons in regards to the context of transitions and against deep defences.
Correct on all accounts.
I believe that there are a lot of young fans here and by their very nature, young people tend to flip-flop between opinions.
The older generation tend to be more set in their opinions and won't let one bad/good result change that.
Yeah, people on here are very knee jerk and emotional.
Call me out if you like, but sometimes it just looks like a question of tempo. When we up our game and play with some eagerness, we can frighten any team in the Premiership, but no, we just revert to these phoned in listless performances.
I'm still, just, pro Jose but feeling very tested at the moment.
I still live in hope...still like the thought of us winning the FA Cup, beating Harry Kane Hotspur at their "home" ground. I like us being hated for the right reasons!
I'm still, just, pro Jose but feeling very tested at the moment.
I still live in hope...still like the thought of us winning the FA Cup, beating Harry Kane Hotspur at their "home" ground. I like us being hated for the right reasons!
I agree with you.
Sevilla was a disappointing result because we definitely have the quality to beat them - but could we have progressed further than the last 8?
With Bayern, Barca, Madrid, Juve & City in the mix? I don't believe so
We are just not as good as these teams, we're probably closest to Juve and I would say they are the weakest of that group, but have experience in abundance which we don't have, and if we were to face them their experience in CL would definitely outshine ours.
Personally, I think the Sevilla result is a wake up call to a lot of our fans, we are not one of the best teams in Europe - I would struggle to put us in the top 10 to be honest.
All of that being said, we are making progress - I just don't think anyone with a rational head can say otherwise, we have all but secured our first top 4 finish since Fergie retired - no we're not dominating the league, and it's easy to look across at our city rivals with contempt and question why we aren't doing what they are doing, but they have been building and creating the perfect conditions for Guardiola to thrive for years - we haven't had that long term outlook on football, and maybe that's a concern but I believe that's a separate conversation.
Next season I expect us to close the gap, we have the quality to ensure that us and City are battling it out for the top spot every week, and that's the most natural progression in our transition period right now.
Yes, that's how I see him. Willing to be positive as long as the gulf in quality is substantial and the occasion not huge. In these situations, with spending, better players and progression, he will make us a better unit. But, as soon as the gulf in quality isnt that much or the game a big one, he will go reactive hoping to nick a win while trying to avoid a loss. 2 ways as you said.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach but it will always result in him being judged exclusively by results and the shitstorm when things go south like it did vs Sevilla is inevitable. Basically, when you make everything about the result, you cannot compain when people judge you by that only.
Is that surprising though? Mourinho himself admits that he's all about the result, trophies. Calls Wenger a specialist in failure for only being able to deliver the FA cups. When you do not have an entertaining style and place the emphasis all on the results, acting shocked when people judge you by it is weird to say the least.
We all knew what we were getting with Mourinho. People accept the package with everything that comes with it because the guy wins stuff. When you engage the support only at that level, its inevitable that shit will hit the fan when you don't deliver. Games vs rivals are especially weird to cite in such an argument. They are almost always all about the result for everyone. No one cares how we play as long as we beat the scousers. That won't fly though when you dont just lose to Sevilla but lose while being absolutely shocking.
There's a book called "what got you here won't get you there". I've been tempted all day to start a thread about how it really suits the situation we find ourselves in with Jose but a) Its probably still a bit too soon b) We have too many Jose threads already
Agreed, I am certain that there is a manager out there that can do a better job than what Jose is currently doing at United. That's not to say he is doing a terrible job, just that things could be better.
Don't ask me to name who these managers are, because, well I don't know, nor is it my job to know, but I am convinced that a more forward-thinking, attack minded manager could get the best out of our players.
Some managers like Tuchel and Pochettino get slated on here as potential United managers because they haven't won much as managers, but it's clear that they can get a team playing well, and with the resources we have at United, surely they could push on and win things.
In a way, Jose's appointment is similar to our transfer strategy in that we tend to go for the big names, rather than those that are the best fit for our club. I still like Jose, and think he has taken us to a decent level, but I have doubts about how far he can take us.
Couldn't agree more, Mourinho has done a decent job with the team he got and money he was allowed to spend but he isn't the manager who will get us to the next level.There's a book called "what got you here won't get you there". I've been tempted all day to start a thread about how it really suits the situation we find ourselves in with Jose but a) Its probably still a bit too soon b) We have too many Jose threads already
That book sounds very interesting actually, is it one of those motivational/self-help/guidance type books?There's a book called "what got you here won't get you there". I've been tempted all day to start a thread about how it really suits the situation we find ourselves in with Jose but a) Its probably still a bit too soon b) We have too many Jose threads already
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how it relates to Jose actually
I'm not saying it's unwarranted, as Tuesday's performance and setup was shocking. I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory that Jose intentionally went weak to make a point to the board, but it's still a bit mind boggling to go with that midfield (and Rashford out right when it wasn't working at any time during the game). I think Jose greatly underestimated Sevilla and thought we'd be dominating them when in reality we allowed them all the space they wanted with an absolutely decimated midfield setup. Now to the point, Jose is not being attacked first and foremost for his results, as his results have been steadily improving over the last 18 months. If that were the case, people would be gutted about being knocked out of the CL tie but nothing more (Monaco '98 for example, 0-0 away, score the first goal at OT and we're fecked). He is pretty much only being criticised for his style of play. So much so that I think a lot of people would rather take worse results if they had more entertainment.
Having thought about it I think the main reason I want him out is because even when we win there's very little enjoyment, and when we lose it's painful to watch. To me watching United isn't all about winning at all costs, it's also the excitement and the emotion that comes from it. Watching this United team brings almost no excitement and very few emotions other than anger and frustration. If that's all we have then what's the point? It's exactly how I felt before LVG was sacked, too.
Not even just quality wise, but European pedigree we're a long way behind the rest.
We've reached the quarter finals once in 7 years (I think) under Moyes – hilariously – and have a Europa League title to our name in that time. I don't want to belittle the Europa League victory too much, but even if we place a lot of stock in it it still means that our recent (and I use 'recent' to mean nearly a decade here) European performances are outshone by Sevilla.
We simply do not have a culture of European success to draw from and for almost all of our players their Champion's League experience either comes from playing at other clubs or is virtually non-existent. There's very little experience and know how when it comes to winning Champions League knockout matches at United in that side. Of the team that lost to Sevilla, only Valencia and Young have enjoyed any sort of success in CL football here and only Pogba, Sanchez and Mata have had experiences of going deep in the tournament. For huge portions of that team, including the entire spine of it, it's almost completely non-existent.
Sure Mourinho does have that experience, and sure the Europa League should be good preparation, but I saw a team unsure of themselves over the two legs. Especially in the second leg at home it looked like the team was fundamentally unsure how much they should commit forward knowing that one goal could be fatal.
Yeah, a self help/guidance book basically which highlights how your behaviour needs to change as you go up the career ladder to achieve success because the game changes.That book sounds very interesting actually, is it one of those motivational/self-help/guidance type books?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how it relates to Jose actually
Re Jose, I think he was the perfect manager to take over from Sir Alex, would have been a dream. Pretty much a great choice to take over from LVG too. He had the authority to change things at the club, forced the suits to spend to revitalise the squad, bought well, made our squad better, got us a taste of trophies again etc. Ideally, he'd have won us a league title too but City had a freak season. He's done a good job so far, even his harshest critics would have to admit that.
Thing is, he comes with a package. Everyone has always known that. He does not believe in a proactive style of football to impose on games. He doesnt believe in keeping the ball and dictating how games go. Has streaks of his personality which arent great either. He's always been reactive, a guy who will suffocate the opposition first if he has any doubt that the gulf in quality isnt big enough to risk positive play. All of this is fine as long as you deliver results, people, especially ones in our situation, will accept the package. But, when you make everything about the result, you need to make sure you deliver because if you don't, discontent will always simmer through.
I believe the club needs a different manager to take the next step from here. Jose has done well so far, I probably wouldnt mind another summer window with him because he has a keen eye in the market and has the balls to go out and spend big so we'll have a better squad than what we had now. But, post that, the club needs someone with better, fresher ideas and a more proactive way of playing football. Someone who can coach the team better and extract more out of what we have. He isn't the guy to do that and take us to the next level. We have some fantastic talents at the club and they are capable of so much more than what we've been served so far. A club with our resources can buy the best around and when you can do that, you want to see more bang for the buck you're spending. Also, just stockpiling good players is neither feasible nor enough. There's too many clubs with too much money and managers capable of producing a sum of parts greater than the individuals. We need someone similar who can take this squad and make it hit the heights its capable of in a proactive manner.
For me, even if United wins nowadays, I barely care to watch replays because it's so boring. There were times I would love to watch even our matches on youtube or when replayed on TV because it would still showcase some exciting football. The Liverpool second half was dire though at least we got the result. The 180 mins against Sevilla were a proper disgrace.
That's how football supporters are mate. We're generally a reactionary bunch, aren't we.
Had Mourinho been in charge of Real Madrid or Barca he'd be fighting for his job after the Sevilla performance - fans would have the white handkerchiefs out and Marca would be hounding him out.
I think a lot of people were on the fence before the Sevilla game; the victories over Liverpool and Chelsea had bought him some time in the fans' eyes. But the Sevilla performance has tipped loads of fans over the edge.
I'm trying not to jump on the 'JM out' bandwagon, but the only thing I can see in his favour is the fact that he's now in an 'adapt or go' situation and we should give him time to decide which option he prefers.
We're definitely one of the European elite mate. We may have under-achieved over the years but we've won the CL three times (only RM, Barca, Liverpool, Bayern, AC and Ajax have won it more often) and we've reached the final on a further two occasions. During the late 90s and 2000s we routinely made the quarter-finals at least, and we were one of the pioneers of the competition in the 50s and 60s.
Yes our recent history is rubbish - no-one is denying that - but you could have said the same about Real Madrid 10 years ago, and look where they are now.
That's a completely different argument to the one I'm making.
How do you know what he meant?
His quotes were left open to interpretation, and, he is either being an idiot, or is naive to think that fans / media wouldn't raise eyebrows at those quotes.
If Moyes had said that (and he said things similar), he would have got hammered.
We shouldn't have gone out to Seville the way we did, the buck stops with him on that. No shots, no passion, no creativity - all sounds very Van Gaal to me.
European pedigree we're a long way behind the rest.
We simply do not have a culture of European success to draw from.
It's exactly the argument you're making.
I'm blatantly talking about recent performances in the competition and the experiences of our current players.
I'd have thought that would be obvious given the two paragraphs talking about exactly that.
Whilst that is true, doesn't the same apply to Sevilla?
I don't think there is anyone in that team that has even played in CL quarters before aside from maybe Jesus Navas with Manchestery City who is injured anyway. The most experienced players are Sergio Rico, Escudero and N'Zonzi that played in CL group stages 15/16, 16/17 and 17/18. They progressed last season but lost to Leicester. So the only knock-out that all these players (Banega played with Atlético and Valencia before but don't think they progressed) won was the first leg last year.
I certainely agree with the notion that experience coming from winning knock-out ties is very important in the CL, just look at Madrid, they couldn't care less when PSG scored the 1:0 in the first leg in Madrid of all places, they knew they would get their chances and they took them. If however the opposing team doesn't have that experience either then I don't see how it can be plausible to list that as an explanation for losing to them, since the effect of that should even itself out.
We're not, at least not right now and haven't been for ages.
In fact, even under SAF, you could suggest that we underachieved in Europe. We had a brilliant period from 2007-2011 and won the competition once. Prior to 2007, we made one semi final since the win in 1999.
Precisely, right now we're floating somewhere in the top 15 of the European elite and there's no shame in that considering we're still in transition. A lot of the teams above us are/were in their peak and will be entering their own transition in the coming years and hopefully we're in a position to benefit off that.
In fact the Sevilla result should drive the players on, they've been posting on Instagram about how sad/angry/hurt etc they feel - so the next time we're in this position they should remember how they are feeling right now, and use that as motivation.
I think it's something that the Juve players would've been able to recall on when they were facing the exit against Spurs - they would've been reminded of their losses in the semi's & finals recently, and been driven to produce more. Same with Barca against PSG last year, Madrid against Wolfsburg & Atletico the year before (I think?) etc
A lot of the CL winners in recent history have had to overcome some form of adversity prior, and before they went on to win had to give more than effort, but show heart & determination even if the odds were against them.
That's the kind of fight we're missing in this team.
We're looking to Pogba to be the leader, and I think that's wrong - as much as I love the guy, he's not a leader - he's a star player, and a great personality - but he's not a leader.
Can you imagine him in the changing room trying to energise and galvanise the team before a match? Nope, he's more likely to calm the nerves, build team spirit and bring positive vibes - before someone like Zlatan (ideally) would've motivated them. I can see Lukaku doing more of it going forward, he's growing into a real leader on the pitch.
But regardless we need more of it throughout the team, I think Pogba needs a leader beside him in midfield in the B2B position, Lukaku can lead the front lines, and I think DDG needs to be more vocal and commanding at the back. Someone like Toby would be great to accompany Bailly also.
Oh there is a very obvious style being implemented. It just happens to be terrible.
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