Jose saving his skin - yet again.. (Manager v Players blame game)

[elnorte]

And yet their results are no better than ours over the past decade. 1 win 2 losses.

Not the past decade.

 

[Raoul]

Truth of the matter is had Jose simply been doing a good job we wouldn't have such a divided fanbase like this with split opinions on him. I doubt you'd see our rivals fans split over opinions regarding their manager beside Arsenal and they're struggling.

When there is a split opinions among fans about their managers it usually means said manager isn't exactly doing a good job otherwise there wouldn't be any outrages from vast splits of fans in the first place.

And what normally happens is that the manager eventually get replaced and everyone move on or the board stick with such divisive figure and they see things turn for the worse, with the obvious example being Arsene Wenger at Arsenal.

I've seen it with Moyes and Van Gaal. We had these ridiculous arguments to justify why they're supposedly doing a good job and only players letting them down until reality finally dawn on even the most apologetic ones.

And most arguments being used now to justify Mourinho averageness are mostly a bunch of recycled ones used for both Moyes and Van Gaal, "players are shit", "we're miles behind x, y, z teams", "we need 6-7 players", "we need a clearout" etc have become all way too familiar but eventually the real issues get found out. Unfortunately we just even been able to find the right appointment to lead us and that's where I blame Woodwards(except for Moyes).

Same old recycled tripe from some people, just different days(different managers).

The fanbase has always been split. A good number of these people never wanted Jose in the first place and have over the years preferred options like Moyes, Giggs, and Cantona instead.

 

[Dominos]

He's had 2 years to get them playing the way he wants. 2 years into the job he's claiming the players simply aren't following his instructions and aren't implementing his coaching into games. He thinks that's passing the blame onto the players but it still doesn't reflect well on his management.

Either he's not coaching them well enough, or he has no authority over the players to the extent they're going onto the pitch and ignoring everything the manager tells them.. Oh and he's basically overhauled our centre backs (Bailly and Lindelof), central midfield (Matic and Pogba), and attack (Lukaku, Sanchez, Mhiki, Zlatan) so he doesn't have the excuse that they're not his players. If after 2 years your players can't pass the ball to each other, have no cohesion or understanding in attack, and play with no intensity in their game, you're probably not doing a great job.

 

[Raoul]

Not the past decade.

Its still a pretty fatuous, grass is greener on the other side point. What difference does it make if Bayern make the semis.

 

[Raees]

@Raees what if football is good and you can sort of see the project but results are bad, let's say we're fighting for top 4 at best. You still wait for the new manager to come to the 3rd year?

Depends on the quality of the football, it has to suggest that it could lead to trophies and winning football. If its pretty football but essentially spineless football, where we blow away smaller sides but are tactically a joke in big games.. i.e. more Arsenal than say Liverpool.. then no, I don't think that is good enough but overall, I think if that manager did get top 4 - I'd be more inclined to give them a third season (if I felt that at least the players are developing under them, and we are not at risk of losing half our squad due to disharmony).

For me I am more concerned about the conflict Mourinho brings, than the fact I have to endure negative football. If I felt, he could grind his way to a title next year or even second place again. I would put up with it. Instead I fear a Chelsea and Madrid third season meltdown is in the offing.

What exactly do you want Raees? I know he has his problems but we are progressing since Moyes and LVG. Are we going to want a new manager every 2 seasons? Why cant you lot understand that City have been phenomenal this season and any other year we would still be in a title race? Jose has his flaws he really does but we are making progress.

I want unity amongst the fans, I hate seeing us all at each others throats. That is usually an indication, things are not right at the club. Look at Spurs, Liverpool.. ok they're not winning, but there is a broad appreciation for the projects at those clubs. There is no such harmony here and yes one group can call the others spoilt and we can call you gullible, but bottom line is there are divisions on the pitch and off the pitch amongst us fans and that is never a cocktail for success.

We are progressing in terms of results this year, but you have to look at the wider picture. For the money spent.. was the football on show, a good reflection of that money spent. Results wise no, quality of performance wise no. Fair enough, its second season so you think fine. However, you have to look at the big picture, with the money spent so far.. will a extra year under Mourinho tutelage, will that squad progress into champions? no.. he himself admitted he's incapable of doing so (he would argue its because squad is not good enough.. I'd argue we can definitely get more out of the squad with better coaching but to some extent he is right). So you have to in theory accept you give him another £300m.. ok, but do you think with that extra £300m with his tactics the way they are, the man management the way it is, he will be a banker for success? IMO no, he has not shown me he has it in him to extract the maximum out of a given set of players and when I see him championing players like Fellaini, chasing guys like Perisic (who is bang average) and investing in guys like Pogba (total misfit for a Jose style side) and Sanchez (who we didn't need if we were planning to use him on the left).. it tells me, that this is not the same Jose.. he's past his best, he makes strange decisions, he is very inefficient with transfers (better than Moyes/LVG but compared to Poch and Pep, he's a few yards short).

City has nothing to do with anything. They're an outlier. We need to look at what we are doing internally. We need to assess our performance levels. Look at the performances v Sevilla which was a reflection of many of our performances this year. Why was a good performance like Liverpool, followed by strange selection and tactical decisions in the next game.. a common theme throughout this season whenever we do have a good performance?

When you compare the net spend of United under Jose, vs Klopp, Poch.. how much of that progress is 'real' progress?

Don't give a feck either way who the manager is at the minute, but it's equally gullible to be swept along by a media-led narrative that he's this dinosaur capable of only playing dour football. Does he look like he's going to piss the league anytime soon? No. Are we a shambles who only play shite, will win nowt and have a mid-table squad under him? Also no.

Our problems aren't half as bad as is being made out. He's allowed to criticise players to get a reaction, didn't say they all needed selling, just they weren't sharp or committing themselves enough. Lukewarm performance against a defensive side, in the snow, in a cup competition in a world cup year and for you that's evidence the players have turned? No, stop crying, take a step back and you'll see it's bollocks.

If you can't see how the last two press conferences and the post match comments don't suggest that something wrong is afoot, then I worry for your well-being over the next few weeks because mark my words.. as seen from previous Jose regimes at other clubs, this is just the beginning and the comments will get more acidic, there will be more cases of revolt and performances will continue to tank.

We might be sitting in second for now, but probably not for long now that he has declared war on most of the squad and they vice versa on him.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Bayern gets dibs on every good German player they want from their league. Imagine if we could get Kane for pennies. That's whats happening in Bundesliga and hence they don't spend huge amount on players. Goretzka, Lewandowski, Hummels, Gotze, Neuer ect.. were all got for pennies from their opponent clubs. Manutd don't have this advantage as all the PL teams are loaded with cash. We need to pay extra to secure players as everyone knows we're stinking rich. On top of this, the mistakes we've committed since the appointment of Moyes followed by LVG and the players they have purchased has set us several years in decline.

I didnt realise Bayern also signed Sane, De Bruyne, Aubamayeng, Mhikitariyan.

Its funny people say Bayern's success has been down to them flogging talents from the Bundesliga when from the side that won the UCL they had only (major player) signed Neuer from a Bundesliga side* Boateng, Martinez, Ribery, Robben were signed from abroad and the rest were their youth players.

Bayern did not spend a lot to build that team, their success was down to tremendous management and talent hunting. That is something United have lacked through their record breaking signings coming and going one season from the next.

And also, yes poor United couldn't sign Goretzka, Gotze and Lewandoski but have to make do with Pogba, Martial and Lukaku.

* Dante, Gustavo and Mandzukic were also signed from Bundesliga clubs but they were signed for low amounts and were hardly big players.

 

[Raoul]

Constantly being in the best final 4 to 8 teams in the CL year after year must say something about the strenght of that team. And they do that in style by playing attacking football every year.

Is there a trophy for that ?

 

[johanovic]

I didnt realise Bayern also signed Sane, De Bruyne, Aubamayeng, Mhikitariyan.

Its funny people say Bayern's success has been down to them flogging talents from the Bundesliga when from the side that won the UCL they had only (major player) signed Neuer from a Bundesliga side* Boateng, Martinez, Ribery, Robben were signed from abroad and the rest were their youth players.

Bayern did not spend a lot to build that team, their success was down to tremendous management and talent hunting. That is something United have lacked through their record breaking signings coming and going one season from the next.

And also, yes poor United couldn't sign Goretzka, Gotze and Lewandoski but have to make do with Pogba, Martial and Lukaku.

* Dante, Gustavo and Mandzukic were also signed from Bundesliga clubs but they were signed for low amounts and were hardly big players.

Spot on and perhaps the difference from a well run club to one that does not seem to have a clear pathway to follow

 

[Raoul]

I didnt realise Bayern also signed Sane, De Bruyne, Aubamayeng, Mhikitariyan.

Its funny people say Bayern's success has been down to them flogging talents from the Bundesliga when from the side that won the UCL they had only (major player) signed Neuer from a Bundesliga side* Boateng, Martinez, Ribery, Robben were signed from abroad and the rest were their youth players.

Bayern did not spend a lot to build that team, their success was down to tremendous management and talent hunting. That is something United have lacked through their record breaking signings coming and going one season from the next.

And also, yes poor United couldn't sign Goretzka, Gotze and Lewandoski but have to make do with Pogba, Martial and Lukaku.

* Dante, Gustavo and Mandzukic were also signed from Bundesliga clubs but they were signed for low amounts and were hardly big players.

We're talking about the very best players, not any randomly famous Bundesliga players.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Chelsea have spent close to 250M this season. Not like there woking on pennies. Spurs and Liverpool fans do not have the expectations of our fans. None of their teams are going to finish above us and still happy to keep their managers. Also none of their rivals are doing better than them and hence fans are contempt. I think City winning it in style is throwing us off this much. If City was in 2nd and we in 3rd or 4th , this would've not been such a talking point.



Everyone understands that. I would definitely want us playing better , Can't see Jose seeing otherwise too. The only reason i could think off is that we have players who are in different pages. 5 seasons of decline isn't something that can be taken so lightly. At this point where games are coming thick and fast, the only thing that matters are the results. We're getting most of the results right, means Jose is definitely doing something right. We need to give him at least a season more to see what he can do. Sacking him now after finishing second sets a bad precedence for any manager out there.

The general retort to someone complaining about the predicament we find ourselves in (in terms of our performances), is that we’re second in the league, only second to a fantastic City side etc, etc. So i’m not too sure whether a lot of people do get it sometimes.

As for the bolded part, we seem to have been saying that all season.

And I’m not necessarily advocating for him to get sacked (there’s obviously other issues at the club that may not be solved by simply sacking him), but i just see no sign of us improving in terms of our performances/our ability to function as a cohesive team

 

[Raoul]

Spot on and perhaps the difference from a well run club to one that does not seem to have a clear pathway to follow

Complete nonsense. Imagine the Prem without City, Chelsea, Liverpool, and Arsenal where United's only competition each year was Spurs. That's Bayern for you.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

We might be sitting in second for now, but probably not for long now that he has declared war on most of the squad and they vice versa on him.

You lot have been saying this for months and it still hasn't happened. Just accept the fact that we're on course to finishing 2nd with our record amount of points since Fergie retired (projected to finish on around 80-84) and there's nothing you can say on here that's going to change that.

 

[Jeffthered]

Not what Jose said. Not sure who, on here, is saying that, too.

Of course he is saying that. "Everything must change..."

Moyes and LVG have scarred some fans, and their respective tenures seems to have suggested (to some) that Man Utd are a club that was in terminal decline, and needed some incredible transformation to save it.

This is the rhetoric that Mourinho keeps spouting. And it's crap.

Fans seem so grateful for finishing in the top four.

 

[Raees]

Complete nonsense. Imagine the Prem without City, Chelsea, Liverpool, and Arsenal where United's only competition each year was Spurs. That's Bayern for you.

Whilst that is true to an extent, that criticism would only hold water if Bayern were then always found out in Europe. Which they rarely are.. they're always competitive, which means even by global standards, they're a well-run club.

 

[johanovic]

Is there a trophy for that ?

Can you not understand what I´m saying? How come the club with the biggest turnover in football is outperformed in the CL constantly by a german club with a lot less financial strength then us? Because they are a very well run club with clear goals and if they can do it why can´t we? Would you rather continue this mess and have no chance to win the EPl and CL? We were one of the 4 strongest clubs in europe back in 2009 to 2011 but we have fallen so far behind that it hurts me because I imagine we have one thing in common and that is for United to be at the top.

 

[johanovic]

Complete nonsense. Imagine the Prem without City, Chelsea, Liverpool, and Arsenal where United's only competition each year was Spurs. That's Bayern for you.

Have you ever been to Germany and seen a match there? Did you not notice Dortumund in the past few years?

 

[Keeps It tidy]

The general retort to someone complaining about the predicament we find ourselves in (in terms of our performances), is that we’re second in the league, only second to a fantastic City side etc, etc. So i’m not too sure whether a lot of people do get it sometimes.

As for the bolded part, we seem to have been saying that all season.

And I’m not necessarily advocating for him to get sacked (there’s obviously other issues at the club that may not be solved by simply sacking him), but i just see no sign of us improving in terms of our performances/our ability to function as a cohesive team

And people want it both ways when praising/defending Mourinho people want to bring up the league position, the fact they were are still in the FA Cup and the two trophies last season. When people talk about the feeble elimination from the CL and being so far off from City people want to point the fingers at the players.

 

[hasanejaz88]

We're talking about the very best players, not any randomly famous Bundesliga players.

Within that Bayern team, how many of the 'very best' players did Bayern sign from Bundesliga teams to support your view that United can't be compared with Bayern?

Complete nonsense. Imagine the Prem without City, Chelsea, Liverpool, and Arsenal where United's only competition each year was Spurs. That's Bayern for you.

What does that have to do with the fact that last season was the first time Bayern failed to reach the semi of the UCL in 5 years? That to they were knocked out after taking the eventual winners to extra time, with a man down.

 

[Raoul]

Have you ever been to Germany and seen a match there? Did you not notice Dortumund in the past few years?

Spurs

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Spurs

Yup.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Spurs

So Dortmund are equivalent to Spurs? I must have missed them competing in the all England UCL final vs United recently.

That argument is as crap as a Madrid fan complaining about City this season saying imagine if all we had to compete with is Sevilla.

 

[JPRouve]

Spurs

I would say that Dortmund=Arsenal while Leverkusen=Spurs, in the last five years. Before that Dortmund were probably at the same level than Chelsea for 3 or 4 years.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Just picked the first one I saw.

You said "squad" not one particular player. And I agree with the sentiment. Shaw isn't good enough.

 

[elnorte]

Its still a pretty fatuous, grass is greener on the other side point. What difference does it make if Bayern make the semis.

We're not even close is the point. A huge amount of work needs done to make it even realistic to consider us reaching the semi-finals. Even Jose in his press conference cited Madrid, Barca, Juve and Bayern as consistently the best teams in the competition over the last five or six years (not ten).

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

So Dortmund are equivalent to Spurs? I must have missed them competing in the all England UCL final vs United recently.

That happened in 2013, five years ago (United were champions, Moyes hadn't happened). Dortmund have since sold their best players to the highest bidders (excluding Bayern, their sole competitor), and are a far worse side today than Spurs.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

How did this turn into a Bayern discussion?

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Of course he is saying that. "Everything must change..."

Moyes and LVG have scarred some fans, and their respective tenures seems to have suggested (to some) that Man Utd are a club that was in terminal decline, and needed some incredible transformation to save it.

This is the rhetoric that Mourinho keeps spouting. And it's crap.

Fans seem so grateful for finishing in the top four.

No he's not. And if you think he is, then you have a problem.

 

[Raoul]

So Dortmund are equivalent to Spurs? I must have missed them competing in the all England UCL final vs United recently.

That argument is as crap as a Madrid fan complaining about City this season saying imagine if all we had to compete with is Sevilla.

One off CL performances are just that. The likes of Porto and Monaco have also made the finals (and won one in Porto's case). Leicester have also won the English league. Doesn't change the dynamics of the Bundesliga being a one horse race where one club have won 10 league titles since Y2K. Reality isn't discriminatory. It simply is what it is.

 

[giorno]

And yet their results are no better than ours over the past decade. 1 win 2 losses.

Disingenous BS argument and you know it. Come on

 

[hasanejaz88]

That happened in 2013, five years ago (United were champions, Moyes hadn't happened). Dortmund have since sold their best players to the highest bidders (excluding Bayern, their sole competitor), and are a far worse side today than Spurs.

Yes and they didn't magically turn crap to discount that Bayern had to compete with them the following two seasons. Certainly now they are poor, but that shouldn't discount how good they used to be under Klopp (and also their seasons under Tuchel).

Leverkusen was knocking out Spurs not longer than a couple of seasons ago. Let's not get hyperbolic in our assessments of Dortmund and Spurs.

 

[Raoul]

How did this turn into a Bayern discussion?

Because someone made the laughable suggestion that Bayren's Bundesliga predicament is somehow comparable to United's Prem adversity.

 

[Raoul]

Disingenous BS argument and you know it. Come on

1 win and 2 losses. Sounds like reality to me.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Yes and they didn't magically turn crap to discount that Bayern had to compete with them the following two seasons. Certainly now they are poor, but that shouldn't discount how good they used to be under Klopp (and also their seasons under Tuchel).

Leverkusen was knocking out Spurs not longer than a couple of seasons ago. Let's not get hyperbolic in our assessments of Dortmund and Spurs.

The point is that Budesliga is a one team league. It's a shock if Bayern don't win it and that isn't helped by Bayern having a monopoly on the best players in that league, even in their biggest rivals' teams.

This is about the present, and at present Dortmund are a weak side in comparison to Spurs. That is easy for anyone to see.

Or put another way. In the history of top flight English football, no club has ever won the league more than three times in a row. When this season is over, Bayern will have doubled that tally.

 

[Fully Fledged]

You said "squad" not one particular player. And I agree with the sentiment. Shaw isn't good enough.

Did you even read what he wrote? Yes he mentions Shaw by name. But his other 2 points he mentions players plural. Jose mentioned 6 players after the BHA game. He didn't mention them by name but that is more than half of the team, not just Shaw.

Why? Because players who earn 100k per week can't stand the pressure? Is his fault that shaw is overweight? Is his fault that some players don't show desire?
This jose hate is too much these days

Sorry @Andycoleno9 for singling you out but this was the post nearest to @Di Maria's angel post that proved what I was saying.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Yes and they didn't magically turn crap to discount that Bayern had to compete with them the following two seasons. Certainly now they are poor, but that shouldn't discount how good they used to be under Klopp (and also their seasons under Tuchel).

Leverkusen was knocking out Spurs not longer than a couple of seasons ago. Let's not get hyperbolic in our assessments of Dortmund and Spurs.

You could argue that they did last season.And Wolfsburg knocked us out of the group stages not long ago.

 

[johanovic]

Spurs

We were like Bayern a few years back in being the biggest team in England and Europe. The decline has been terrible and ok if you want to argue that Bayern is a Mickey mouse club in a Disney league that is your right but funny how they can outperform us in the CL every single year for the past seasons. But I would urge you to watch german football and perhaps you will see that apart from Bayern teams like Dortmund,Schalke,RB Leipzig would not do badly in England. And they give young german players a lot of chance to play resulting in the German national team fairing a little better than England over the years. But hey according to your logic that´s remarkable because the german league is so inferior to the PL ....... Bayern won the CL in 2013, runners up in 2010 and 2012, semi finals in 2014,2015,2016 and quarter finals in 2017. Really impressive for a club from a inferior league.

 

[JG3001]

I can tell you about two famous instances where he called out his players after a win. One was at Aberdeen after winning the Scottish cup and one was at Anfield where Fergie didn't hide his disappointment about our performance .

Not being funny, but you’ve listed two times in 30 years. Mourinho has done as much bus chuckin in the last 2 weeks.

 

[JDoe]

Complete nonsense. Imagine the Prem without City, Chelsea, Liverpool, and Arsenal where United's only competition each year was Spurs. That's Bayern for you.

This is definitively not true. There have been alot of top BL players we weren't able to buy, see Reus (prefered Dortmund), Sané/KDB (snapped up by City), Vidal when he went to Juve (Völler didn't want to sell to us), Diego Ribas (Bremen also didn't want to sell). The last top players we bought from the BL were Lewa, Hummels (wanted to go to us) and Götze (release clause). That's comparable to Sanchez/RVP going to you guys for example. If we wanted a top BL prospect like Bailey/Werner/Pulisic, we'd have to pay (at least) the same price that other clubs would (see Sané/KDB), unless the player himself explicitly wants to go to us (and even then it doesn't work, Vidal promised to go to us but left for Juve the first time).

 

[Raoul]

We were like Bayern a few years back in being the biggest team in England and Europe. The decline has been terrible and ok if you want to argue that Bayern is a Mickey mouse club in a Disney league that is your right but funny how they can outperform us in the CL every single year for the past seasons. But I would urge you to watch german football and perhaps you will see that apart from Bayern teams like Dortmund,Schalke,RB Leipzig would not do badly in England. And they give young german players a lot of chance to play resulting in the German national team fairing a little better than England over the years. But hey according to your logic that´s remarkable because the german league is so inferior to the PL ....... Bayern won the CL in 2013, runners up in 2010 and 2012, semi finals in 2014,2015,2016 and quarter finals in 2017. Really impressive for a club from a inferior league.

How many of those semi final appearances resulted in 3rd place trophy for them ?

 

[hasanejaz88]

Because someone made the laughable suggestion that Bayren's Bundesliga predicament is somehow comparable to United's Prem adversity.

That statement is obviously false, but what is also false is that it's the reason, which you so happily state, that Bayern have performed better than United in the UCL for the past half a decade.