Do explain how a club so dominant in terms of winning the league has such a poor record in the cup.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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They wouldn’t have won a final without him and you know that. And we have a large enough sample size to seemthat Argentina has only won 18% ofntheir games without Messi.
What I said was true
If Higuain scored either of his chances we wouldn’t need penalties or ET against Germany. Messi plays much further away from goal, he sets up everyone on a plate all the time.
He’s not, Messi has the betteRonaldo is the better goal scorer.
Goal per game ratio
If Higuain didn't score against Belgium, Messi may have gone home after that game.
If you're going to blame Higuain for missing chances, how about some credit for finishing them too?
Neither would they have gotten there without Nani, but that's a story for another day. He wasn't the best player at the tournament, Griezmann was. He didn't play in the final, which they managed to win regardless, where's the BS? The man had one goal in the knockout rounds, hardly some amazing feat of a player leading or carrying a team anywhere.
CR7 was directly responsible for Portugal reaching the next round till they made the final. Forget how many he scored in the knock out. He created/caused the few they scored too. Take him out they would never have got out of the group. Nor would they have negotiated the quarter final and semi final. It isn't far fetched for anyone to say he literally propelled forward. Even if the likes of Griezmann had superior tournaments
So did Nani as i said. it was far from a classic tournament by a star, far far from it.
He scored 3 and assisted 3 of Portugal’s 9 goals (8 since he wasn’t on the pitch for Eder’s goal). That’s about the best you can do in an average at best Portugal attack
All of that came in two games, against Hugary and Wales. We don't give assists for shots for gods sake.
Hungary was a do or die game and when their defence was destroyed they again needed Ronaldo to save them. The Wales game was only the semi final of the tournament. Not to mention welsh team was very good that tournament. He had 3 assists which is the reason he received the silver boot (not that he cared. He gave it to nani instead). So not sure what you are yapping about
He also dragged them to qualifying for the tournament with a class hat-trick after being 2-1 down against Sweden away.
CR7 directly contributed to 6 of Portugal's 9 goals. Nani did no such things. CR7's Euro performance was similar to Maradona at Italia 90. Not the brilliant best but necessarily essential. Thus no one serious can claim he didnt have a good tournament.
Wrong tournament, that was the 2014 World Cup.
You are using the ‘CDR is not important’ narrative to fit your argument. Because you can’t justify any other way for Messi to out score your precious Ronaldo the greatest goal scorer of all time.It's clear that Real Madrid as a club give very little attention to CDR, unless you think they magically get worse in the cup?
The league and the CL are the 2 competitions both play in and both care about, how unfair to compare them in the 2 biggest competitions.
Ah, so it was. Whoops.
'Glorified' would imply he isn't as good as Klose or Gerd Muller?
Its funny how Cristiano simply has to be the best CL player due to his goal records in the CL knockout stages for many but when it comes to the EC, he was suddenly so important because he scored in the group stages and Portugal wouldn't have made it through them without him (they wouldn't without the new and quite pathetic rules, by the way, too). Due to this, Portugal's EC was probably the most undeserved great international title in history. At least Greece didn't need a change of the regulation that had a devastating effect on the quality of the tournament to win it.
Chance creation and assists have a very broad definition. That is why many in here criticize purely statistical analyses of football players and say that you have to use qualitative methods. Gerd Müller also gathered countless assists (again, most in Bayern's history) because it is normal if you play in the box. If Ronaldo receives a pass in the box, passes it sideways to another player who scores this counts as much as Messi dribbling two players out off a static tactical situation and playing a brillant pass through another two. Just like a goal simply marks the final contact before the ball passes the line, an assist is the second to last contact.
Look at Iniesta. Probably one of the greatest creative forces in the game. He had multiple campaignsin La Liga where he didn't even pass the 10 goals + assists mark. In the tripple winning season 14/15, he had one assist in 24 games. In football, these simple stats have no informative value without qualitative analysis. If you want to use stats then also consider things like dribbles per game, key passes, long balls, how many opponent players the man overplayed etc. But even then it has not much significane without a qualitative evaluation.
I also said that "from a technical point of view" passing and dribbling are the two most important attributes for an offensive player. This excludes physical things (pace, power) and tactical aspects (intelligence, situational awarenes, reaction). Don't reduce my arguments simply because it fits your agenda to do so.
Oh come on, the first argument has been explained time and time again and the second one is you purposely misunderstanding my point.
Chance creation and assists have a very broad definition. That is why many in here criticize purely statistical analyses of football players and say that you have to use qualitative methods. Gerd Müller also gathered countless assists (again, most in Bayern's history) because it is normal if you play in the box. If Ronaldo receives a pass in the box, passes it sideways to another player who scores this counts as much as Messi dribbling two players out off a static tactical situation and playing a brillant pass through another two. Just like a goal simply marks the final contact before the ball passes the line, an assist is the second to last contact.
Look at Iniesta. Probably one of the greatest creative forces in the game. He had multiple campaignsin La Liga where he didn't even pass the 10 goals + assists mark. In the tripple winning season 14/15, he had one assist in 24 games. In football, these simple stats have no informative value without qualitative analysis. If you want to use stats then also consider things like dribbles per game, key passes, long balls, how many opponent players the man overplayed etc. But even then it has not much significane without a qualitative evaluation.
I also said that "from a technical point of view" passing and dribbling are the two most important attributes for an offensive player. This excludes physical things (pace, power) and tactical aspects (intelligence, situational awarenes, reaction). Don't reduce my arguments simply because it fits your agenda to do so.
And if Messi scored his chance against Germany he’d be a World Cup winner. But he didn’t. So stop blaming Higuain. Do people not realise how ridiculous they sound when they make statements like ‘Messi had Higuain, Ronaldo had Eder’?
This argument is invalid. You play by the rules you get served up - everyone knew them WELL in advance. Portugal needed Ronaldo to get them out of the group stage - which is fairly essential for winning the tournament.
The rules were changed well ahead of the tournament and everyone played to the same rules.
You're using the CDR is vital narrative to fit your argument cos as Ronaldo pulls even further ahead in the CL, you're desperate for something to count in the Messi column.
Seems we have a mod who is a Ronaldo fan and not happy at the obvious being spelt out by the poll result.The age old nonsense. How messi’s assists are top class passes that only he could execute and Ronaldo’s are just square passes. Jesus.
Elite just means for me he is very capable and better than leading attacker’s for other top teams like Lukaku, Kane, moratta. He is behind the likes of neymar Salah etc but he can still dribble is what I’m saying
Also the discrediting of Ronaldo’s role in the euros is a complete joke. The mental gymnastics some of you have to go through to justify that Ronaldo and Messi are equals with international tournaments just proves how illogical this debate can get
Doesn't change the fact that Portugal wouldn't have made it through the group stage with the regulation previous winners faced.
But we shpuldn't let that distract us from the fact that if Ronaldo wins a big tournament, goals in knockout stages are suddenly not that important anymore for him to be the best player. To me it seems like the most important criteria for footballing greatness coincidentally depend on which aspects of the game Ronaldo excells at at the very moment.
But we shpuldn't let that distract us from the fact that if Ronaldo wins a big tournament, goals in knockout stages are suddenly not that important anymore for him to be the best player. To me it seems like the most important criteria for footballing greatness coincidentally depend on which aspects of the game Ronaldo excells at at the very moment.
That isn't the definition of elite lol. You want to look that up because he most certainly isn't an elite dribbler anymore which is no shame.
He was important in the Euro's but was he crucial? Clearly not, Portugal managed to win the final without him. The whole team stepped up with vital contributions from Pepe, Nani, Sanches and Ronaldo himself. To try say Ronaldo was the main reason though is laughable though one gets the impression from most your posts about this subject.
Well, you could still have regulations with 4 countries competing at the Euros, then most of the countries that have won it wouldn't have made it through to the main tournament.
It’s quite bizarre for Messi to go down 13 percentage points in the poll, pretty sketchy that for as long as this poll has been up, overnight it’s all these people who supposedly never voted before decided to vote now.
As for the EC, Ronaldo does deserve credit to getting them out of the group stage and he was good in the semi final.
Just odd people criticize Messi’s international performances when without him they don’t get out of the group stage of the WC, or either Copa America’s
As for the EC, Ronaldo does deserve credit to getting them out of the group stage and he was good in the semi final.
Just odd people criticize Messi’s international performances when without him they don’t get out of the group stage of the WC, or either Copa America’s
By that logic, Barca wouldn’t have qualified for some of the CLs they won.
I'm not sure about that. Argentina have some really good players who I think sometimes get intimidated by Messi and just let him carry the load. I know when he doesn't play their performance suffers but I wonder how they would do long term if he wasn't playing. Portugal on the other hand (for the most part) are just not very good without Ronaldo. Sure they can play above themselves as they did in the Euro final but when they won it, it was more of a surprise than anything else.
You still ignore my point regarding Ronaldo not scoring in the knockout stages of the EC. After all, your entire argument of Ronaldo being the best is based on you downplaying the importance of goals in the group stage yet suddenly, Ronaldo has had a great tournament because without him respectively his two goals against Hungary, Portugal wouldn't have survived against them, Iceland and Austria?By that logic, Barca wouldn’t have qualified for some of the CLs they won.
Sorry, your complete line of argument doesn't make sense at all and is completely agenda driven. What's important to you is concidentally always the particular things which can be used pro Ronaldo and the other arguments are downplayed with the silliest arguments.
Honestly, if Ronaldo would have as much creativity and imagination on the football pitch as you while defending him, he would probably the greatest sportsmen ever, including future greats. You never get bored of thinking around corners to find excuses. I would say it is self reasoning par excellence but in actuality, you don't promote yourself but Cristiano. It is really odd, after all.
Just look at how they did without Messi in the qualification for Russia...
Yes, agreed that he was essential for them to win it.
His games ranged from fantastic (Hungary & Wales) to terrible. Don't know how to call that. Such a mixed bag.
He was more consistently good in '08 and '12. I'd say he was great vs Czech (2x), Turkey and the Netherlands and had one awful match against Denmark.
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Isn't that what I said.
You guys are far too passionate about players who have either never played for us or left us long ago.
That aside, Messi is the better talent. I am not sure if that equates to him being a better player at this point.
That aside, Messi is the better talent. I am not sure if that equates to him being a better player at this point.
That's not what I said. But Cristiano plays very high up the pitch since he is at Real and spends much, much time in the box. When you are the target man of such a squad it is only natural that you gather lots of assists. He still has many brillant ones but he is noone like Ozil or Messi and that's what I wanted to say. His assists are not easy. They are intelligent, have good decision making and are executed precisely. The weight and direction of his passes are often superb and I can understand that you feel like he doesn't get enough credit for them. Nonetheless he is clearly behind other players in terms of vision and passing ability and you barely see him initiating attacks from dead situations or play mindblowing through balls behind the defenders like Messi does regularly. He is also less adapt in solving tight situations in the midfield and overplaying the opposition pressing which is crucial for creating numerical superiorities and initiating attacks. Messi does this all the time for Barcelona while Ronaldo lets Marcelo, Kroos, Modric and Isco do this work. You cannot ignore this.
That's one of the best one liners I've read in this entire thread.
One bicycle goal and Cristiano shortens the gap by 10%? Tells a lot how fickle sometimes football fans are.
Tells a lot how fickle sometimes football fans are.i think Argentina's biggest problem, even if we leave out Messi is that they don't have competent creativity in the midfield.
they have forwards who are easily among the best, if not the best in their respective leagues.
Higuian, Icardi, Aguero, Dybala and a winger Di Maria, at one point of time have all been the best player in their position in the league or even world, bar Messi/Ronaldo.
Apart from Icardi, all played in teams who had excellent midfields, but when it comes to NT, they don't have a decent midfield for chance generation.
and I agree, downplaying Cristiano's role in their Euro win or his importance in NT is silly, but that is part and parcel of the stupid fan war, and when people use that win to say Ronaldo has been better than Messi NT scenario, it bring some people to downplay his Euro performance.
And it is not one side issue as people on the other side are quick to downplay Messi's role in WC run, because he did not scored in KO stage, when the truth is the only below average match he had in WC was against Holland, even though he did created chances which should have been buried to avoid the penalties.
Now it may look funny and silly, but it was true they struggled to beat the likes of Bosnia, Switzerland and even fecking Iran, and required magic moments from Messi to win.
People have this notion that Messi becomes average player with NT, while truth is Messi issue in NT is just that he does not match the goal count of Barcelona's self.
Other than goal, if you go by his other aspects like, dribbling, chance creation and assists, it is same. In WC14 and all three Copas(2011,2015,2016), he was leading in chance creation and among the top dribblers. Just like he is with Barcelona.
If Messi plays good, Argentina wins, if he struggles to bring magic, they lose. And that over-reliance on Messi is a bad thing as you pointed, and even their coach was claiming few days back it was Messi's team, maybe it is to inspire players to win WC for Messi, still a wrong attitude.
And I have a funny belief that if Argentina wants to win the WC, they would need a major shady incident, bring the true Argentine stereotypical attitude of cynical, cry baby and cheating attitude. I mean both of their WC wins had two big shady incidents(sixer against Peru in 1978 and 1986, the hand of god). A Messi dive to win penalty and send off a opposition player, is what they are missing.
Did you just compare playing in the CL group stages with Real Madrid to playing a group stage in the Euros with Portugal? What?
And no, we didn't need a change in regulation. The change in regulation happened before the tournament, not after. Everyone already knew 3rd place would go through, we finished third. What's the problem? If 2 teams went through then the games wouldn't obviously have played out the same way. It's so freaking stupid... and i'm not even sure what the feck that has to do with Ronaldo but it gets stupidly repeated over and over again in this thread.
Underserved? Did the referees help us or was it the other way around? Look at out tournaments in the past 15 years and how we got knocked out of them and then tell me that title was undeserved. Did Germany or Spain deserve it more? Then they should have won their games instead of crying about it. If Italy had played the way we played they would have been geniuses.
Exactly, now you understand it. If instead of shooting a bycicle kick Ronaldo brings it down and shoots, the goal would have counted the same. But now he's a genius for a few days instead of being a poacher who does nothing else. If Ronaldo picks the ball up on the half way line and scores from distance he's just good at scoring... if Messi picks it up on the half way line dribbles past 4 and scores then he's a good dribbler and a good finisher. Messi has freedom on the pitch and for the last years they've been occupying pretty much the same position on the team as the second furthest player on their teams... (not true this season for Ronaldo anymore). So your theory of the Gerd Muller comparisons that are like a cancer that won't die doesn't make any sense.
The problem with the qualitive evaluation is that you can say whatever the hell you want and pretend it's true when it's blatantly not. Just like two posts ago you said Ronaldo didn't create chances... So the guy who has no role in chance creation creates more chances than anyone on his team just because he's upfront... but then does he create chances or not? First, you said he didn't, now you say he does. Or does he not create the type of chances you like to watch? If he moves off the ball, gets into a good position, plays a simple pass to a teammates and it's a goal, it's worth the same as a goal after a throughball after all. Goals after crosses are worth the same too. And if you think most of Messi's assists aren't pretty much the same as Ronaldo's then you're wrong too.
I didn't, wasn't talking about you. And I completely disagree with that, the problem is that according to a lot of people here Ronaldo is not a special dribbler, he's not a special passer and his finishing is not special either since he takes more shots to score a goal... and according to the same people that's all that matters. So how the feck has he been dominating the sport for over a decade? Shouldn't he be playing in the championship then? He's not any good at the things that matter...
If you ignore the things Ronaldo's better at and only judge players on the things Messi's better at then no shit, Messi's going to be the better player.
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