Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[el3mel]

Hey, who changed the poll to be "Not Messi" ? This is unfair.

 

[VorZakone]

Curious how their careers stack up after both have retired. Messi is 2 years younger.

 

[Rajma]

20 percent swing off the back of one performance. Caf at its best.

 

[Zehner]

We've obviously not going to agree on any of this. In order to make Messi look good, you'll insist on dribbling being the most important aspect of football. I disagree.

Its the other way round. I think Messi looks good because he is so good at dribbling and passing. And that's the case with Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Laudrup, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Zidane, basically every great in the history of football and even the young Cristiano himself who I initially preferred over Messi (was pretty young back then and liked the flashy stuff he did back then).

And I am not making these things up.

While we all enjoy European league’s summer break, watching some Copa América or Women’s World Cup, let us talk about the everyman’s strategy in football.

If you cannot break through an opposing defence why not just play the ball down the flank and cross it into the middle? It seems like an easy strategy at first glance. However, after years of statistically analysing football, it should be common sense that knocking the ball into the box is not the most effective way of using ball possession in the opposing half. But here is the deal: It only needs to work once or twice in a match for it to be deemed profitable, while being an easily realisable tactic. Just throw all the advantages of effectively exploiting ball possession and attacking opportunities out of the window.

Particularly in England, one could have the feeling cross passes are something worth striving for. Crossing is seen as a counter to the opposition parking the bus – a cornerstone of English football thinking. Note: High and intense pressing is not common in Premier League or in Italy’s Serie A. Players and spectators often describe the English way of football as very intense and fatiguing. A usual Premier League clash goes back and forth. Of course, continual attacking runs down the flanks, where the opposing is not defending as strongly as in the centre of the pitch, accelerate the game.

However, we sometimes watch matches like when Manchester United drew with Fulham on February 9, 2014, crossing the ball 82 times. The input was high, the outcome extremely little. And remember, every inaccurate cross means the team loses the ball, even if it hurtles through the six yard box, while all target players standing five yards deeper.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2015/06/22/an-ineffective-tool/

This is from 2015 from a German tactical blog. Obviously, the PL came a long way since then and strong offensive teams like City and Liverpool do not play like this any longer. Other countries made this change quite some time ago and it is one of the reasons why the English football used to be so much behind since Guardiola's first CL title.

The transition from 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1 to a defensiv 4-4-2 and nowadays often a 3-4-3 as well as constructions like inverted wingers, false nines and so on all had the purpose of overloading the midfield to create numerical superiority in the center. This means less space which means that close ball control (dribbling), passing ability and agility become more and more important. And that you can take less shots from a distance.

What I want to say: Crosses, at least in their "traditional definition" are useless and pretty much every modern coach will agree.

 

[Cal?]

Of course clubs care about domestic cups, maybe not the league cup as much but spanish clubs do care about the Del Rey and english the FA Cup. Why do they play their best or almost best teams if they dont care?

You are taking out cup games to fit your argument.

Goals and assists matter when we are discussing who is the better player. Why is that not relevant.

Having to disclude facts and stats to back your argument shows that you are struggling with proving Ron to be as good as Messi.

Never mind Ronaldo v Messi, just look at Real Madrid v Barcelona.

Real has 33 La Liga titles in their history, 9 more than Barca,
Yet only 19 Copa del Rey, 10 fewer than Barca.

Care to explain?

As for goals and assists, I agree they matter, but they're not equal to each other, therefore adding up together is stupid.

 

[Pocho]

Cal is trying

We've obviously not going to agree on any of this. In order to make Messi look good, you'll insist on dribbling being the most important aspect of football. I disagree.

Funny, Messi doesn´t look good, does he??

 

[Cal?]

Its the other way round. I think Messi looks good because he is so good at dribbling and passing. And that's the case with Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Laudrup, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Zidane, basically every great in the history of football and even the young Cristiano himself who I initially preferred over Messi (was pretty young back then and liked the flashy stuff he did back then).

And I am not making these things up.



https://spielverlagerung.com/2015/06/22/an-ineffective-tool/

This is from 2015 from a German tactical blog. Obviously, the PL came a long way since then and strong offensive teams like City and Liverpool do not play like this any longer. Other countries made this change quite some time ago and it is one of the reasons why the English football used to be so much behind since Guardiola's first CL title.

The transition from 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1 to a defensiv 4-4-2 and nowadays often a 3-4-3 as well as constructions like inverted wingers, false nines and so on all had the purpose of overloading the midfield to create numerical superiority in the center. This means less space which means that close ball control (dribbling), passing ability and agility become more and more important. And that you can take less shots from a distance.

What I want to say: Crosses, at least in their "traditional definition" are useless and pretty much every modern coach will agree.

I happen to rate scoring as the most important factor in football.

You list of "every great" in football left out a lot of names, Di Stefano? Beckenbauer? Puskas? Van Basten? None of them are famous for dribbling. Also I'd argue Cristiano is a better dribbler than half the people on your list.

 

[Cal?]

Cal is trying

Funny, Messi doesn´t look good, does he??

Messi does look good, just not very effective at the highest level.

 

[Pocho]

Anyone has the stats in the match they played against, that should tell us something.

 

[Lord SInister]

Messi does look good, just not very effective at the highest level.

Probably talking about looks

 

[Pocho]

Messi does look good, just not very effective at the highest level.

Yes, Barcelona should sell him.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Messi is probably more naturally gifted but, as of today, Ronaldo has had the more impressive career -

1. 4 ECLs to 3 (with 2 clubs)
2. Won an international tournament (with a less talented group of players than Argentina)
3. Proved he can thrive on adversity in a very different football culture (particularly 2006/2007).

 

[Zehner]

Also, Ronaldo used to be one of the best dribbler in the world when he was at United, and during his early Madrid career. Most people have got short memory here.

At United, probably. But according to WhoScored, Ronaldo had 2.6 dribbles per game in his first season at Real Madrid and in his second already went down to 2.0. Since then, his best result were 2.2 dribbles per game in 2014/15. This is hardly among the best dribblers in the world. Messis didn't drop below 3.5 at all and has only three seasons below 4. This season, he has 5.2 dribbles per game.

It is not as if Ronaldo had adapted his playing style due to his age. He simply decided he wanted to score more goals and stopped dribbling if not necessary. And this development already started in his first year at Real.

 

[el3mel]

Messi does look good, just not very effective at the highest level.

Wow. You're taking it to a new level now.

 

[charlton66]

Messi does look good, just not very effective at the highest level.

I've got to admit I prefer Ronaldo myself but not to the point of putting Messi down. He is a genius there's no two ways about it. Comments like those I have bolded are one of the reasons why people often don't take much of what you say seriously.

 

[Cal?]

Anyone has the stats in the match they played against, that should tell us something.

It's already been posted before, Messi has a better record in El Clasicos, pretending not to know and "asking for the stats" is not going to work.

Yes, Barcelona should sell him.

Still the 2nd best in the world...

 

[Pass and Move]

I happen to rate scoring as the most important factor in football.

You list of "every great" in football left out a lot of names, Di Stefano? Beckenbauer? Puskas? Van Basten? None of them are famous for dribbling. Also I'd argue Cristiano is a better dribbler than half the people on your list.

Ronaldo can barely beat a man nowadays, he’s not a good dribbler.

 

[Cal?]

I've got to admit I prefer Ronaldo myself but not to the point of putting Messi down. He is a genius there's no two ways about it. Comments like those I have bolded are one of the reasons why people often don't take much of what you say seriously.

It's true that Messi's record doesn't measure up to Ronaldo's in the CL (especially the latter stage). I'm not twisting facts.

It's funny how you decided to jump on that comment when the Messi brigade have been going on about Luiz Ronaldo and Ronaldinho.

 

[Pocho]

Messi is probably more naturally gifted but, as of today, Ronaldo has had the more impressive career -

1. 4 ECLs to 3 (with 2 clubs)
2. Won an international tournament (with a less talented group of players than Argentina)
3. Proved he can thrive on adversity in a very different football culture (particularly 2006/2007).

Telling a lie a thousand times doesn´t make it true, he has four ECL.

 

[Cal?]

Ronaldo can barely beat a man nowadays, he’s not a good dribbler.

Right, so we're using their dribbling ability at 33 to compare, half of the people on @Zehner 's list had already retired.

 

[Cal?]

wro
Telling a lie a thousand times doesn´t make it true, he has four ECL.

That he does, even though he played no part whatsoever in 2006 from the QF onwards.

 

[Pocho]

That he does, even though he played no part whatsoever in 2006 from the QF onwards.

whatever, he has four.

 

[charlton66]

It's true that Messi's record doesn't measure up to Ronaldo's in the CL (especially the latter stage). I'm not twisting facts.

It's funny how you decided to jump on that comment when the Messi brigade have been going on about Luiz Ronaldo and Ronaldinho.

Be true to oneself Cal. Never mind what other people say. Stick to making your points about Ronaldo instead of trying to put Messi down.

 

[Cal?]

whatever, he has four.

He does have 4, 1 of which he did little more than David May in 1999..

 

[gerdm07]

Messi is the GOAT. Ronaldo is the greatest goal scorer all time (GGSOAT).

 

[Pocho]

He does have 4, 1 of which he did little more than David May in 1999..

He did more than Cristiano in the Euro final.

 

[Cal?]

He did more than Cristiano in the Euro final.

Err... Cristiano played in the final.

Messi didn't play in the CL final in 2006, nor either leg of the SF, nor either leg of the QF.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Telling a lie a thousand times doesn´t make it true, he has four ECL.

He has three plus one with an asterisk. I doubt Gerard Pique brags about winning it in 2008.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

Okay. What about when he looked good against Man United in those finals? Or when he put 4 past Arsenal. Or the 6 goals including a hat trick v Man City?

If Messi played in England he would be by far the best player in the league. FFS, look at the success Salah is having and he isn't even half the player.

I didn't say that he isn't a great player, or that he would struggle in England. I just feel that describing Chelsea's current team in their current form as "Champions on England", verges on opportunistic. Using his performance against them as evidence isn't the strongest argument. Good as he was, scoring 3 goals in 2 games, against a vastly inferior team (... that's one more than Dele Alli in the same number of games). My other statement was that nobody is saying Messi wouldn't score against relegation candidates. So that's a strawman argument.

 

[Pocho]

He has three plus one with an asterisk. I doubt Gerard Pique brags about winning it in 2008.

Last time I checked nobody was bragging about it, he has four despite he didn´t play semis and final, Ronaldo almost didn´t play the Euro final and people here are bragging that he made Portugal champ. Strange.

 

[shamans]

I believe the opinion that Ronaldo is better than Messi is only found here and at Real. If it was antoher forum it would be an unpopular opinion. Also, wtf is up with that poll? Please change it back as it's ridiculously disrespectful to the GOAT.

I have plenty of friends who are Chelsea, Arsenal and Serie A fans that think Ronaldo is the true GOAT. These things don't prove anything so your point doesn't make sense

 

[marktan]

I believe the opinion that Ronaldo is better than Messi is only found here and at Real. If it was antoher forum it would be an unpopular opinion. Also, wtf is up with that poll? Please change it back as it's ridiculously disrespectful to the GOAT.

I think part of the reason for that is because most United fans remember how explosive his dribbling was for us. Whereas most neutral fans only see the players they are today, in which Messi's better at dribbling and to an extent creating whereas Ronaldo's dribbling has declined majorly, but forget that Ronaldo's essentially been two world class players in his time (a winger/wide forward at United & a forward at Madrid).

 

[PvsNP]

Last time I checked nobody was bragging about it, he has four despite he didn´t play semis and final, Ronaldo almost didn´t play the Euro final and people here are bragging that he made Portugal champ. Strange.

Yup, I don't see Barcelona beating Mourinho's Chelsea without Messi's performance back in 2006. Forced a red card in that game as well.

 

[Daysleeper]

It’s not disrespectful to Ronaldo at all what are you on about?!

Don't be silly, I know it's sad that Messi had 74% of the vote at one point on a United forum, but the majority of the world sees Messi as the better player there is no need to be so petty about it

 

[Daysleeper]

Messi is probably more naturally gifted but, as of today, Ronaldo has had the more impressive career -

1. 4 ECLs to 3 (with 2 clubs)
2. Won an international tournament (with a less talented group of players than Argentina)
3. Proved he can thrive on adversity in a very different football culture (particularly 2006/2007).

4 ecl to 3? what the hell, did 2006 not happen? If that's the case then we remove Ronaldo's euro since he didn't play in the final.

And Messi can't thrive on adversity? Put Messi in the 2008 United team and he'd have United walking the league, I love how people make it sound like Ronaldo playing for two of the richest clubs in the world was overcoming adversity.

And Portugal won a Euro final without him, Argentina struggle to win a single game without Messi let alone an NT final. Messi's team is actually worse than Ronaldo, Ronaldo has the better manager and defense, and has players like Eder actually show up whereas Messi has Higuain bottling chance after chance.

 

[Cal?]

Last time I checked nobody was bragging about it, he has four despite he didn´t play semis and final, Ronaldo almost didn´t play the Euro final and people here are bragging that he made Portugal champ. Strange.

or QF

It's funny how hard you're trying to gloss over it.

 

[Snowjoe]

Don't be silly, I know it's sad that Messi had 74% of the vote at one point on a United forum, but the majority of the world sees Messi as the better player there is no need to be so petty about it

The worst thread in the history of the internet deserves it.

 

[Cal?]

4 ecl to 3? what the hell, did 2006 not happen? If that's the case then we remove Ronaldo's euro since he didn't play in the final.

And Messi can't thrive on adversity? Put Messi in the 2008 United team and he'd have United walking the league, I love how people make it sound like Ronaldo playing for two of the richest clubs in the world was overcoming adversity.

And Portugal won a Euro final without him, Argentina struggle to win a single game without Messi let alone an NT final. Messi's team is actually worse than Ronaldo, Ronaldo has the better manager and defense, and has players like Eder actually show up whereas Messi has Higuain bottling chance after chance.

The same Higuain who scored the only goal of the game against Belgium? Ok...

 

[Pass and Move]

Right, so we're using their dribbling ability at 33 to compare, half of the people on @Zehner 's list had already retired.

You said ‘is’ not ‘was’ about Ronaldo being a good dribbler.

 

[KirkDuyt]

The worst thread in the history of the internet deserves it.

This thread is awesome, don’t be silly