Also Messi played for a much more dominant side, the Ronaldinho Barca, compared to Ronaldo at Sporting or a United side in transition.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Messi made that side more dominant.
Basically, if we're going to compare their level as goalscorers, surely it makes sense to compare them whilst playing as goalscorers and not include the time Ronaldo was a winger.
That side had no trouble winning the CL with no input from Messi from QF onwards.
Sure if you want to make that point to ignore the fact Messi is younger, has played less games but has almost the same amount of goals. If that is the tact you want to take to deflect from it then go for it.
There’s a difference playing one off ties with the big teams in the CL and then playing an entire league of 38 games where a lot of teams like West Brom Crystal Palace etc prefer to defend deep and get physical unlike their La Liga counterparts, not to mention playing without a winter break, in 2 cup competitions and in a league with less leniency by referees. Not saying he Will not hack it in the pl but there’s certainly a difference to both the situations
See, that's why it's hard to talk to you about Messi Ronaldo comparisons.
No but the question was why the disparity. This is why.
I've said it many times, no one is arguing Ronaldo was better than Messi at that age. But being better at a younger age doesn't make anyone a better player. Rooney was better than Ronaldo at that age too.
That I post facts to argue my point? As supposed to just relying on my impression of the world like the Messi brigade?
There's no difference between a Ronaldo brigade which you're a champion of and Messi brigade.
Then why is it that Ronaldo fans can accept the greatness of Messi (and that thinking he is better is also a valid opinion) but so many Messi fans put Ronaldo in the top 5! There's a clear difference and I want to say the fact that Messi is a creator/dribbler plays a huge role into it.
They accept his greatness by constantly downplaying everything about him?
what is always ignored here is that Messi never had the opportunity of playing under managers like Mou, Fergie & Carlo - unlike Ronaldo. it's like everything was perfect for him just because he played with Xavi. when Barca got knocked out, even with Xavi and Iniesta playing, in most cases it because of their tactical naivety and lack of plan B, not because of their lack of quality. that's where world class manager could help, but you won't hear a thing about that. Xavi was there so everything was rosy, I guess.
Whilst it's a valid point, what is not discussed often is that Messi has been better from a younger age, something that gets ignored in these comparisons. To be that good from a tenneager is an achievement itself.
What kind of distorted comparison is being made here? Either compare their whole careers, or compare them starting from when Ronaldo went to Madrid. This seems to go between the two, depending on which suits Ronaldo more. If it matters that they played for more than one club, why not ask who has the better goals per game ratio over their career? Or if you're going to ask who has more champions league goals, why not ask who has the most La Liga goals?
There's enough stats out there to make you pro-Ronaldo argument, no need to manipulate them further
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The Messi brigade frantically propelling myths of how he is as good a goal scorer now
Myths
I'll give you the champions league, but will that even be the case by the time they retire? We'll see I suppose.Goal ratio career total from Wikipedia if there's a better source i'd like to see it.
Ronaldo 0.75
Messi 0.83
Ronaldo has played 95 more club games.
International
Ronaldo 0.54
Messi 0.49
Ronaldo has played 26 more international games
Notice I've separated the international, to make the point the opposition Ronaldo has in Europe isn't comparable to what Messi plays.
It may seem like Ronaldo is a better goal scorer, but he isn't. It's PR from Madrid fans and nostalgic united fans, with short attention spans. (look at the raise in those pole numbers).
He passed his turn, being the playmaker that he is.Yesterday we all enjoyed Ronaldo.
Tonight it's Messi's turn
No response? @Cait SithOkay, let's break it down:
Messi:
vs Brazil: played 9, 4 goals (all in friendlies, 0 in competitive matches)
vs Chile: played 7, 3 goals
vs Colombia: played 8, 3 goals
vs Uruguay: played 8, 3 goals
vs England: (never played)
vs France: played 1, 1 goal (in a friendly)
vs Germany: played 4, 1 goal (in a friendly)
vs Italy: (never played)
vs Spain: played 3, 2 goals (both in friendlies)
---
vs Sweden: played 1, 0 goal
vs Netherlands: played 2, 0 goal
vs Belgium: played 1, 0 goal
vs Portual: played 2, 1 goal (in a friendly)
Ronaldo:
vs Brazil: played 3, 0 goal
vs Chile: played 1, 0 goal
vs Colombia: (never played)
vs Uruguay: (never played)
vs England: played 3, 0 goal
vs France: played 4, 0 goal
vs Germany: played 4, 0 goal
vs Italy: played 2, 0 goal
vs Spain: played 3, 0 goal
---
vs Sweden: played 6, 5 goals (1 friendly)
vs Netherlands: played 4, 4 goals (1 friendly)
vs Belgium: played 2, 3 goals (1 friendly)
vs Argentina: played 2, 1 goal (in a friendly)
Clearly your inclusion of Chile, Colombia and Uruguay was just a very poor attempt at manipulating the data, Ronaldo has played a grand total of ONE game against them whilst Messi has played 23 times.
I could do a similar list with Sweden, Netherlands and Belgium included.
That is just ridiculous. Then I could also argue that their current past their best selves don't count that much. It clearly speaks for Messi that he started his brillant form at such a young age and was a Balon D'Or contester at 19. You cannot simply ignore Cristiano's younger days because they don't suit your point, just like this crazy, deluded and cherry-picking court story btw. If after their careers Cristiano has performed at world class level from say 23-35 and Messi from 19-35 this is huge.
And by the way: Practically playing as a center midfielder doesn't stop Messi from scoring almost as much as Ronaldo in his striker role. And he contributes more to the offensive game of his team than Cristiano did in any of his positions throughout his career.
Playing as practically a cm? Come on now, some of the arguments made by Messi fans are ridiculously exaggerated.
Messi has more talent but Ronaldo is a better overall (for now).
Messi will finish his career as the GOAT. He has time on his side to beat Ronaldo's goal scoring records.
Messi will finish his career as the GOAT. He has time on his side to beat Ronaldo's goal scoring records.
He's been playing as a CM now? You got to love the Messi brigade and their ability to invent things.
Great post!
Why does there have to be a 'Messi brigade' and a 'Ronaldo brigade'? Are we not able to appreciate both players as being absolutely fantastic without getting all defensive if our particular favorite isn't seen as the best by others?
You got to love the Messi brigade and their ability to invent things.
Well, when you talk about statistics and an average, it is often statistically more sound to talk about the median where you remove the best two years and equally the two worst years, and then you take an average. One may find that would change things a little. For instance, in Ronaldo's first two stints at CL, he hardly scored, yet he is still far ahead of Messi in CL goals. Moreover, one may argue that the CL is the stick to beat Messi with seeing as many would argue that Barca was so superior to other teams in La Liga when Xavi and Iniesta were at their peak, that the tally of goals would be inflated, and thus the CL is a better indicator.
This is very true. Then you know what they say; there are lies, damned lies, and then there is statistics.
That's easy, because Messi is so good, even Ronaldo fans know it's ridiculous to put him anywhere else than at least number 2.
On a serious note though, both Ronaldo and Messi fans (I refuse to use the word brigade or fanboi, seriousy, feck that) can be annoying. Some Messi fans come with overblown rethoric like, you don't need stats to see he's better blahblahblah and then there's Ronaldo fans who make that ridiculous court room comparison with a frame so skewered it would make Fox News blush. We're all biased and we all suck. Let's just stick to discussing the players instead of pointing to fans of the other and screaming they're somehow worse, because they're really not.
There's plenty of Messi fans that compare Ronaldo to Gerd Müller and there's an equal amount of Ronaldo fans saying Messi wouldnt be able to do it on a rainy wednesday night at stoke without Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets behind him.
The exact issue is the amount of Messi fans even refusing to discuss the issue as they believe he is so far ahead of Ronaldo. That is complete delusion imo. As for your bold part, very few claim that about Messi. Rainy night in stoke is considered a joke usually when discussed anywhere but Ronaldo and Germ Müller (even fecking hernan crespo) comparisons are more common.
This is why I cannot debate this with certain fans. If you are going to put Ronaldo in "top 10" you simply do not even know the greatness of the player.
it is always funny that some people discredit the almost every one from that great Barca side.
Like Messi had it easy because he played with Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Pique, Puyol and so on.
exact same thing is said when talking about Xavi, like he had it easy because, he played with so and so, repeat and repeat with other from the same group.
So the only true great player Barca had was Valdes.
I don't disagree about some Messi fans saying stuff like that. There was a page about Ronaldo being a kind of Miroslav Klose not too long ago
Ofcourse the Stoke bit is a joke, but the Xavi and Iniesta carrying him isn't. Which is equally (ok not equally) ridiculous to calling Ronaldo a poacher.Obviously Ronaldo has stepped up in a ridiculous way (yet again) since January. And to be honest I think achievement wise Ronaldo is ahead of Messi at the moment, especially considering he has a bit less (but still huge amount) of natural talent at his disposal.
If Ronaldo and Messi had a baby and they combined his sheer force of will and drive to be the best with Messi's raw talent... that would be quite something.
who would be father and who motherI don't disagree about some Messi fans saying stuff like that. There was a page about Ronaldo being a kind of Miroslav Klose not too long ago
Obviously Ronaldo has stepped up in a ridiculous way (yet again) since January. And to be honest I think achievement wise Ronaldo is ahead of Messi at the moment, especially considering he has a bit less (but still huge amount) of natural talent at his disposal.
If Ronaldo and Messi had a baby and they combined his sheer force of will and drive to be the best with Messi's raw talent... that would be quite something.
?
Same way United reached a UCL final basically swapping Ronaldo for Valencia, what an absurd argument
Dominant how? How did that enlarge his numbers?
05, he played 9 games, scored one goal
06, 25 games, 8 goals
07 and 08, dominant side my ass, they lost 2 leagues against a Real Madrid with Emerson, Diarra and Gago, lost vs Liverpool in UCL QF, ended 3rd, 18 points behind Real Madrid in Dinho's last season, no trophies or finals played
So, you're going to base Messi's better goals/game cereer ratio on him scoring 9 goals in 34 games his first two seasons? His 33 goals the next two seasons on a trophyless team were due to them being dominant?.
Well anyone that says Xavi and Iniesta "carried" Messi also doesn't know what they are talking about. I think the Xavi and Iniesta points are moot. I credit Ronaldo for the Euro's trophy and also credit Messi for the success he has had with Xavi and Iniesta. I do sometimes point out the benefit Messi has had by playing with Xavi and Iniesta when people discredit Ronaldo for trophies like the Euro saying it was all pepe/Nani or Madrid wins.I don't disagree about some Messi fans saying stuff like that. There was a page about Ronaldo being a kind of Miroslav Klose not too long ago
Obviously Ronaldo has stepped up in a ridiculous way (yet again) since January. And to be honest I think achievement wise Ronaldo is ahead of Messi at the moment, especially considering he has a bit less (but still huge amount) of natural talent at his disposal.
If Ronaldo and Messi had a baby and they combined his sheer force of will and drive to be the best with Messi's raw talent... that would be quite something.
Both players have had world class players around them so it's not a valid argument.
Ronaldo the woman turned man butch father and Messi the boy turned lady boy mother.
That wasn't the point, the point was that in these last years, Ronaldo's role for Real Madrid is similar to the role Klose had for Germany, it wasn't in any way a comparison between Klose and Ronaldo through their careers, their overall qualities as a player or anything similar, just the roles they played. Like you could do between Iago Aspas at Celta and Henry for Arsenal, it isn't in any way like saying Henry "was kind of a Iago Aspas".I don't disagree about some Messi fans saying stuff like that. There was a page about Ronaldo being a kind of Miroslav Klose not too long ago
Obviously Ronaldo has stepped up in a ridiculous way (yet again) since January. And to be honest I think achievement wise Ronaldo is ahead of Messi at the moment, especially considering he has a bit less (but still huge amount) of natural talent at his disposal.
If Ronaldo and Messi had a baby and they combined his sheer force of will and drive to be the best with Messi's raw talent... that would be quite something.
Well Messi has a beard, whilst Ronaldo shaves his legs so..
@Ishdalar
I think calling Ronaldo's role nothing more than a poacher (like Klose was for germany) is selling him a bit short. Ofcourse he's not a play maker, but his runs and the thread he poses when on the ball outside of the box is something Klose never did.
I do understand no one meant to say Klose was as good as Ronaldo ofcourse.
Do I understand correctly, putting Ronaldo in top 10 is now disrespecting him?
I don't see that, honestly. In this tier there is quite some competition. Pele, Maradona, Messi himself, Cruyff, Platini, Zico, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Beckenbauer, Laudrup, Ronaldo, Di Stefano, Puskas, Best, Baggio, Garrincha, Eusebio. There are so many of them and they were so brillant players in their own right. All of them have arguments speaking for them. More or less all of them were superior playmakers and dribblers than Ronaldo and many of them have similar statistics. Cristiano (566 in 749), Pele (650 in 694 club appearances), Messi (543 in 628), Zico (456 in 664), Eusebio (423 in 431), Di Stefano (376 in 521), Puskas (748 in 719), Ronaldo (247 in 343) all have similar numbers and ratios.
People that rate Messi higher than Cristiano because he is a better playmaker almost have to rate many of those players higher because they accomplished similar goal outputs with simultaenously better playmaking. Interestingly, note how Puskas scored much more goals than Di Stefano (even for Madrid he was at 321 in 408) but the latter is still regarded as the better player.
Don't let recency fool you. What Messi and Cristiano did seems to be unique and incredible but in the history of the game there were more players who accomplished similar numbers.
Also, those who rate peak or talent over longevity or drive also have arguments to rate many of these players higher than CR7, R9 or Ronaldinho for example.
Before the first full season they turned 21:
Messi had played 120 games and scored 42 goals.
Ronaldo had played 168 games and scored 32 goals.
Ronaldo's better fitness record at the younger age, combined with the fact he played further from the goal back then were the main reasons Messi has a better career to date goalscoring ratio.
06/07 and 07/08 seasons, Barca scored 78 & 76 goals in La Liga, being dominant in La Liga and scoring lots of goals does not mean being dominant against Real Madrid.
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