This made me realize that I don't know the names of Dirty South producers.
Music Top five rappers all time
- Thread starter Sally Cinnamon
- Start date
I'd put MF Doom in a Top 5 producers list, but not a Top 5 Rappers list. Not massively into his delivery as I am his lo-fi dusty beats. Though that's personal preference rather than saying he's the best of all time, as I just really dig that style.
Not sure who I'd sub him in for out of those 5 though. Probably Dre if anyone, purely because I'm not a fan personally, but can't really fault the impact he has had overall.
Yeah I like Dooms beats too. Oddly enjoyed his flow more though over Dangermouse beats with DangerDoom.
I agree with the top 4, I'd have Timberland in 5th though considering his contribution to the genre as well as pioneering the chopped kick drum and the double time.
Premier
RZA
Dilla
Pete Rock
Neptunes
Special mention to Just Blaze, Swizz Beats & Timbo.
RZA
Dilla
Pete Rock
Neptunes
Special mention to Just Blaze, Swizz Beats & Timbo.
As much as I like and respect him always been a lil puzzled that Big Boi never gets anywhere near that level of respect .
His solo albums have been good and he is still more than capable of putting out good songs whereas Andre seems to have lost his nerve to release anything
I can only think of Timbo, JD and Master P. Dammit my minds gone blank
Andre 3000
Common
Ice Cube
MF DOOM
Drake
Liquid Swords is possibly my all time favourite rap album so I'd love to put GZA in too.
I know there's a hugely controversial choice there but 'Over My Dead Body' is the GOAT song and I'll fight anyone who wants some.
Common
Ice Cube
MF DOOM
Drake
Liquid Swords is possibly my all time favourite rap album so I'd love to put GZA in too.
I know there's a hugely controversial choice there but 'Over My Dead Body' is the GOAT song and I'll fight anyone who wants some.
Couldn’t agree more.
One of the reasons why I dislike putting 3k on these lists too. He’s not a solo rapper.
Definitely Digga .Her album Dirty ******* is a classic. Lyte as well ,not to sure about Foxy though.
Why do you have to be a solo rapper to be included? If Pac and Biggie formed a group and couldn't make it work, it wouldn't be because of individual skill so you have to take into consideration the ability of an emcee to collaborate when in a group. If they make it work, then it is only another skill to be credited. However, you should be able to rate their contribution and skills individually.
What is your opinion on M.O.P? Their discography is solid, they have hits as well as terrific b-sides, both rappers have their own flow and style to a degree that makes them stunningly overlooked imo. Not everybody has the pride, skill and work ethic to make that fully happen. They also have the amazing combo of being able to both style out with the technical aspects of being a rapper, like flow, breathcontrol, style, rhyming patters, punchlines, delivery but they also have the ability to convey strong emotions, and paint that picture in depth like few others.
Also, sorting through artists to get to a top 5 is hard, i figured it has to be some sort of competitive element to it. I think its only right to include that premiss, its hiphop. The question in the OP was about all time rappers, and semantics aside the best rapper should be the one that'll convey his message the clearest. Whatever that message is, he will always win. That's how i figured out my top 5 anyways. Like an imaginary room full of these rappers with 1 minute on the mike each. That is also why the likes of Drake and J.Cole is respected by most of the old heads, because they do that very well.
All subjective isn't it?
personally I always felt Foxy's cadence and delivery was always on point, she can ride most beats with ease.Regarding female rappers then Lauryn Hill is my favourite. Both on The Score and Miseducation she is fenomenal all over.
Lil Kim is the shit, Eve too then you have Missy, Remy Ma, Trina, Rah Digga, Ms. Jade, Lisa Left eye. Hard to make a top 5 of that too. There is a lot of other good ones also, but Lauryn is the only one i regularly still listens to.
Favorite Producers:
- D.R Period
- Nottz
- Dj Premier
- Dj Battlecat
Last spot any of those: Hi-tek, Marco Polo, Jake one, Havoc, Rza, Apollo Brown, Illmind, Eric Sermon, Dj Khalil, Saalam Remi,
Lil Kim is the shit, Eve too then you have Missy, Remy Ma, Trina, Rah Digga, Ms. Jade, Lisa Left eye. Hard to make a top 5 of that too. There is a lot of other good ones also, but Lauryn is the only one i regularly still listens to.
Favorite Producers:
- D.R Period
- Nottz
- Dj Premier
- Dj Battlecat
Last spot any of those: Hi-tek, Marco Polo, Jake one, Havoc, Rza, Apollo Brown, Illmind, Eric Sermon, Dj Khalil, Saalam Remi,
Great post.
You don’t have to be a solo rapper to be included, I just personally don’t include it for a number of reasons.
OutKast as a group had a ying/yang element, where Big Boi was the antithesis of Andre in a lot of ways, and their rise as a group helped Andre’s career substantially to the point that I believe if he came out with a debut solo album (assuming OutKast never existed) of him singing, wearing skirts, and having a perm (especially in the 90s), but still being the exceptional lyricist he is - he wouldn’t be as coveted as he is. For a number of reasons, including, hip hop’s adjacency to masculinity and heteronormative gender roles.
Big Boi provided the foundation of that perceived masculinity and allows Andre 3k to really thrive in his subversion as a result.
That’s my opinion, and that could be part of a wider, but separate topic.
Also, being a group means that half of the work is taken off your workload, especially if you have other artists to do the hook for you, it means that a lot of the time you only have to focus on writing a good verse.
And I think a lot of people take for granted how difficult it is to create great music.
Lock anybody in a room with a beat and they can come up with a technical and lyrical 16 bar. Very few can create great music though.
I think that’s Andre 3k’s struggle and one of the reasons why he doesn’t release solo music. It’s much more convenient and easier for him to feature on a good track and make it great with his rhymes, but him having to do 3 verses on 1 song, on an 11 track album? I just don’t think he’s wired that way personally.
It’s no slight to him, like I said he’s my favourite lyricist but for me he’s part of one of the greatest rap groups and it’s a little unfair on Big Boi otherwise to consider him as one of the best rappers without any solo projects.
MOP are underrated, point blank. Their delivery is top tier, a lot of their stuff isn’t my go-to - that aggressive street rap has never really been for me - but like you said they’re one of the most consistent rap groups out there.
I’m not sure where I’d rank them though that’s tricky, top 20 of all time, but probably in the 15-17 range.
Also please don’t take what I’ve said as criticism of your thread at all, it was a unique take on the discussion - but more often than not these lists end up being quite exclusive, and lyrics is the only key to getting in.
I just felt we could consider other metrics too.
An imaginary room full of these rappers listed and I agree with you, someone like Cole or Drake would succeed in getting their message across - would they be part of the best rappers ever? I think that’s two different questions.
I’d agree that the ability to convey your message to the audience is key to hip hop, arguably maybe more so than technical lyrcism, especially if we’re considering the foundation of what hip hop was built on, being the voice of the voiceless.
Actually it’s a great point, all the greatest rappers had that ability, maybe more so than a lot of the pure lyricists.
But I think for prolonged success that message has to evolve over time and adapt, some rappers don’t want prolonged success though and are perfectly content with relaying their message to their audience.
Let’s do best groups of all time next.
Bone Thugs n Harmony are the goat group for me. They’re also incredibly underrated. I rarely see them pop up on lists when people talk about the ‘good old days’ of Hip Hop.
Bone Thugs n Harmony are the goat group for me. They’re also incredibly underrated. I rarely see them pop up on lists when people talk about the ‘good old days’ of Hip Hop.
Groups? Outkast, easy.
First my list.
Scarface is an absolute lock-in. He should be in the list above. But he gets in.
O'Shea Jackson is an absolute lock-in. Arguably the greatest rapper from the West Coast.
The 3 greatest rappers in NY pre-Nas are Rakim, KRS-One and Chuck D. They're all on the provisionary list.
The one rapper from the Wu-Tang on the provisional list... is Ghostface. Raekwon's solo output fizzled out after OB4CL. Ditto for GZA. Inspectah Deck got shafted by the flood in RZA's basement.
Black Thought. On the provisional list because. Redman is on the provisional list. 3 undisputed classics and a near classic in a row.
I really hate to place Andre 3000 on this list. He doesn't have a solo album. The brilliance of Outkast was equally his and Big Boi's (who is insanely underrated and has several excellent albums of his own). They both get on the provisional list.
2 other southern rappers that are on the provisional list are Lil Wayne and Bun B. The latter had a 3 year period where his claims of being the best rapper alive were with merit. Bun B's output on Ridin Dirty and Underground Kings alone puts him here on this list, but he'll most likely fall out in the final rack and stack. From the west, I'd place Kurupt and Kendrick Lamar on the provisional list. Kurupt was the most technical out of that G-Funk era. Kendrick Lamar for obvious reasons. Sad he's the only one from this current day and age who is in consideration... says something. Why am I doing this by region? Mid-west... Common is on the short list.
Provisional list:
Scarface
Ice-Cube
Black Thought
Rakim
KRS-One
Chuck D
Ghostface
Redman
Andre 3000
Big Boi
Lil Wayne
Bun B
Kurupt
Kendrick Lamar
Common
Scarface is in. Ice Cube is in. Black Thought is in. Chuck D is in. I can't choose the 5th. If you're considering Outkast, Big Boi is in over Andre 3000. If that offends you, and both are out, then Ghostface.
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He quite obviously is. How many other artists have 'a few more "Pimp" level albums'? How many have albums as good as GKMC?
3 albums and a mixtape in and it's blatantly obvious Kendrick Lamar has one of the best discographies in rap.
Mannie Fresh. Pimp C. Throw in Organised Noise for all the work they did with Outkast, Goodie Mob and the extended Dungeon family. Zaytoven definitely.
There was a whole wave started by Lex Luger but personally his run didn't last longer than 3 years so it's hard to put him up there. He did father a lot of the current cream of the crop (Metro Boomin, Southside/808 Mafia)
All good, as are ATCQ, Flipmode and Upset. But there's no way any of those groups top the WU!
Producers :
Dr.Dre
DJ Quik
KNO
The legendary Traxter
DJ Premier
Groups :
Outkast
Wu-Tang Clan
Bone Thugs N Harmony
8ball & MJG
Above The Law
Oh, and in top 5 rappers i forgot my favorite rapper(!) Suga Free.
I dont think anyone can touch him on uniqeness or flow.
Dr.Dre
DJ Quik
KNO
The legendary Traxter
DJ Premier
Groups :
Outkast
Wu-Tang Clan
Bone Thugs N Harmony
8ball & MJG
Above The Law
Oh, and in top 5 rappers i forgot my favorite rapper(!) Suga Free.
I dont think anyone can touch him on uniqeness or flow.
Just? No. If lyricism and ability were all that mattered then someone like Canibus or Papoose would be on top of the list. They matter of course but other factors come into the frey.
The ability to tell a story is important. Variety and/or depth of the theme covered is important (Pusha T only raps about cocaine but he does it better than anyone I know. Ditto for Future by the way, he's on my top 25 list). Ability to appeal to the emotion is important. Hip-Hop started in a party basement, so being able to craft a hit that can rock the crowd will always be important. Flow over the beat. Great beat selection. Wit and sarcasm. I'm sure there are more. End of the day, no one cares much for a rip-rip-rappety-rap rapper who just mashes as many words as possible into a syllable without making sense. They're in the same bucket as genuine "mumble rappers".
But it is no surprise that these lists are "generic"... most rappers on these lists came up during the golden age of the genre, spanning from the late 80s to the early 90s. And of course Hip-Hop is not dead today and of course there are a lot of great rappers out today. However that time was just the apex of the genre from a critical perspective, where a lot more emphasis was placed on the quality of complete pieces of work as opposed to just the single.
Today's music is more creative and melodic. Envelopes are being stretched more. Lot more experimentation and fusion with and into other genres. But it's no disrespect to today's rappers to say that the majority of them just don't measure up to the names you usually see on the "generic and boring" lists. I listen to their music every weekend, and they just don't have the range, depth, ability or intellect required for this conversation. But fortunately you don't need any of that to make the club bump.
Yep, proper underrated.
I though that I should mention french rappers too, I think that there is a big difference in terms of production compared to most countries, here you have Akhenaton from IAM:
Excellent post, except the part about Future (as if my list wouldn’t be more controversial
) I was asking the question whether people place lyrics over everything else, not implying that people in this thread were only using lyrics as a consideration when putting up their own lists.
These things almost always end up being a snobfest of the most lyrical rappers and everybody else is seemingly not even close.
For me when I think about a rapper, his impact, influence, message, ability and music are the main driving force.
The best ones should be great in all of those categories, and oftentimes they’re not always adjacent, you can have great impact and ability with terrible music. You can have great music and message with average ability etc. A lot of these lists end up being filled with artists with great messages, ability but ultimately not many of us still listen to their music and I think that’s important too. Otherwise you’re just naming names based on nostalgia and who you feel obligated to list in order to show you’re knowledgable and insightful.
But that’s just me.
My list wouldn’t deviate too much from what most people have said, I think there’s a serious lack of Scarface, Kanye, Pimp C, Too $hort, Lil Wayne’s etc because they don’t fulfil the super lyrical category (except Scarface) and aren’t the stereotypical rapper to list when naming the best of all time. But man, their influence, message, impact, music and ability cannot be denied. Don’t have to like their music, but they’ve done ridiculous amounts for the culture.
@villain I would also include whatwhat aka Jean Grae in my list with Rakim. Her flow is so sick.
Ghostface would get in, too, but I love Ghost so that pick is biased.
"On The Top Of The World" is one of the greatest hip hop albums of all time.
Jean Greasy is another great female rapper, lyrically her and Rapsody can run rings around a lot of the male rappers. Great choice!
I don’t find many people who don’t love Ghost tbf.
Lady of Rage is my favorite Femc.
More hot takes where that came from!Excellent post, except the part about Future (as if my list wouldn’t be more controversial
I was asking the question whether people place lyrics over everything else, not implying that people in this thread were only using lyrics as a consideration when putting up their own lists.
These things almost always end up being a snobfest of the most lyrical rappers and everybody else is seemingly not even close.
For me when I think about a rapper, his impact, influence, message, ability and music are the main driving force.
The best ones should be great in all of those categories, and oftentimes they’re not always adjacent, you can have great impact and ability with terrible music. You can have great music and message with average ability etc. A lot of these lists end up being filled with artists with great messages, ability but ultimately not many of us still listen to their music and I think that’s important too. Otherwise you’re just naming names based on nostalgia and who you feel obligated to list in order to show you’re knowledgable and insightful.
But that’s just me.
My list wouldn’t deviate too much from what most people have said, I think there’s a serious lack of Scarface, Kanye, Pimp C, Too $hort, Lil Wayne’s etc because they don’t fulfil the super lyrical category (except Scarface) and aren’t the stereotypical rapper to list when naming the best of all time. But man, their influence, message, impact, music and ability cannot be denied. Don’t have to like their music, but they’ve done ridiculous amounts for the culture.
I wanted to mention Rage when I did the female emcees, she went hard with her flow and delivery. Unfortunately all the drama with deathrow at the time proper fecked the level her album should have been at.
I’m here for the hot takes, let’s hear them
1. Thanks
2. Fair enough. Interesting thought about André hypothetically changing the game as a solo artist.
3. Very consistent as a group. They are a bit too hardcore for some and that often put people off and its not for everyone but I also think a lot of people would open their eyes up on them if they actually went through their catalog or something. Its a bit of a dynamic in duos like this just, like with Outcast but Fame can ride any beat better and sound better than pretty much anyone if up against it, while Billy would just scream another emcees face off if he had to. I have put them both in my top 5, and I know its controversial but there is a lot of time behind that decision. Their material stands the test of time better than most imo. I am myself not the guy which most of their music is intended for, but they have such depth in their way of conveying stories and messages its very relatable on different levels for anyone with empathy point blank. Which remind me I did forget to put R.A the ruggedman, common, and a few others in my 'almost list'.
4. Its two different answers. They aren't part of the best rappers ever, but what they do have is that ability to convey with authenticity, and it is one of the most important and sought after qualities to possess in Hip Hop, and i think that is whats being reflected when they get respect from the old guys. I personally don't listen to them much.
5. Its a great point indeed. Its not easy to stay true to the past when its moving so fast so you can't really blame anyone, but i think what you are talking about should be on a lot of peoples minds. The reason hiphop was created is far more important than some marginalising view of any one entertainment aspect of it... so its a good way to use that to assess what qualities should make an emcee the best. Might sound a bit pretentious and a bit ironic given we are discussing something trivial at this point, but whatever.
3Stacks
RedMan
Black Thought
Doom
MosDef
Producers
El-P
9th Wonder
Madlib
Preemo
Dilla
RedMan
Black Thought
Doom
MosDef
Producers
El-P
9th Wonder
Madlib
Preemo
Dilla
Dr Dre is not really a rapper. His flow and "lyricism" is not all that.
“Never let me slip, 'cause if I slip, then I'm slippin’ “ was an amazing line to be honest.
sounded cool thoughReal lack of DOOM on the list. Has a definite classic and one of the strongest discographies from anyone on the list.
J Dilla (the most underrated Rapper of all time)
G Dep
Wayne
G Dep
Wayne
Method man
Tyler
Nas
Raekwon
Tyler
Nas
Raekwon