Why do you have to be a solo rapper to be included? If Pac and Biggie formed a group and couldn't make it work, it wouldn't be because of individual skill so you have to take into consideration the ability of an emcee to collaborate when in a group. If they make it work, then it is only another skill to be credited. However, you should be able to rate their contribution and skills individually.
What is your opinion on M.O.P? Their discography is solid, they have hits as well as terrific b-sides, both rappers have their own flow and style to a degree that makes them stunningly overlooked imo. Not everybody has the pride, skill and work ethic to make that fully happen. They also have the amazing combo of being able to both style out with the technical aspects of being a rapper, like flow, breathcontrol, style, rhyming patters, punchlines, delivery but they also have the ability to convey strong emotions, and paint that picture in depth like few others.
Also, sorting through artists to get to a top 5 is hard, i figured it has to be some sort of competitive element to it. I think its only right to include that premiss, its hiphop. The question in the OP was about all time rappers, and semantics aside the best rapper should be the one that'll convey his message the clearest. Whatever that message is, he will always win. That's how i figured out my top 5 anyways. Like an imaginary room full of these rappers with 1 minute on the mike each. That is also why the likes of Drake and J.Cole is respected by most of the old heads, because they do that very well.
Great post.
You don’t have to be a solo rapper to be included, I just personally don’t include it for a number of reasons.
OutKast as a group had a ying/yang element, where Big Boi was the antithesis of Andre in a lot of ways, and their rise as a group helped Andre’s career substantially to the point that I believe if he came out with a debut solo album (assuming OutKast never existed) of him singing, wearing skirts, and having a perm (especially in the 90s), but still being the exceptional lyricist he is - he wouldn’t be as coveted as he is. For a number of reasons, including, hip hop’s adjacency to masculinity and heteronormative gender roles.
Big Boi provided the foundation of that perceived masculinity and allows Andre 3k to really thrive in his subversion as a result.
That’s my opinion, and that could be part of a wider, but separate topic.
Also, being a group means that half of the work is taken off your workload, especially if you have other artists to do the hook for you, it means that a lot of the time you only have to focus on writing a good verse.
And I think a lot of people take for granted how difficult it is to create great music.
Lock anybody in a room with a beat and they can come up with a technical and lyrical 16 bar. Very few can create great music though.
I think that’s Andre 3k’s struggle and one of the reasons why he doesn’t release solo music. It’s much more convenient and easier for him to feature on a good track and make it great with his rhymes, but him having to do 3 verses on 1 song, on an 11 track album? I just don’t think he’s wired that way personally.
It’s no slight to him, like I said he’s my favourite lyricist but for me he’s part of one of the greatest rap groups and it’s a little unfair on Big Boi otherwise to consider him as one of the best rappers without any solo projects.
MOP are underrated, point blank. Their delivery is top tier, a lot of their stuff isn’t my go-to - that aggressive street rap has never really been for me - but like you said they’re one of the most consistent rap groups out there.
I’m not sure where I’d rank them though that’s tricky, top 20 of all time, but probably in the 15-17 range.
Also please don’t take what I’ve said as criticism of your thread at all, it was a unique take on the discussion - but more often than not these lists end up being quite exclusive, and lyrics is the only key to getting in.
I just felt we could consider other metrics too.
An imaginary room full of these rappers listed and I agree with you, someone like Cole or Drake would succeed in getting their message across - would they be part of the best rappers ever? I think that’s two different questions.
I’d agree that the ability to convey your message to the audience is key to hip hop, arguably maybe more so than technical lyrcism, especially if we’re considering the foundation of what hip hop was built on, being the voice of the voiceless.
Actually it’s a great point, all the greatest rappers had that ability, maybe more so than a lot of the pure lyricists.
But I think for prolonged success that message has to evolve over time and adapt, some rappers don’t want prolonged success though and are perfectly content with relaying their message to their audience.