Mourinho or Pogba?

[Ban]

I'm perfectly calm, I think Carragher is full of shit in that article, Mourinho offers us nothing, get rid of both of them? Sure, but the idea of keeping this toxic dinosaur of a manager who has spent the last 18 months publicly throwing players under the bus, but a player can't voice their opinions on what is going wrong? That's bullshit.

I do remember those sides, he was a key player in both, take him out of the French team and I don't think they win that World Cup for starters, he was the supply line from that midfield.

He wasn't a key player in Juve nor in France. As it was said here after he left Juve they became even better. Reaching a CL final without their key player...
As for other stuff please tell me, what has Carragher said wrong and with what parts do you not agree and why?

And yes player can't voice their opinion like that. It sets a really dangerous precedent. Who's to say he wouldn't do it again with a new manager in charge. You agree with it and you like it but your hatred of Mourinho is clouding your judgement.

 

[Ban]

Apparently for Jose it is as it’s happened at his last two clubs. Is it a coincident that the most influential players at his last 3 clubs have had public falling out with him?

Is it normal to happen at United?

And please don't compare Pogba to Ramos, Casillas and Hazard.

 

[mancan92]

Oh you want to count 2 years?

OK. 69 points in season 1. 81 points in season 2.

If the manager can't get most of his players playing then we wouldn't have improved the way we did on results. It's really that simple so try finding another narrative.

We have the second most expensive squad in Europe for God’s sake are you serious? And let’s be honest we got second last year due to huge amounts of luck and were 6th in the first year.

You can’t even name one player in the squad who has shown a consistent increase in performance and the has been a regression in a lot of players

 

[Devil may care]

He wasn't as vital as you claim him to be. He wouldn't get into Klopp or Pep or arguably Poch's system let alone Mourinho.

It has nothing to do with the manager. He plays for himself and lacks discipline. He only shows the discipline for his country because he can't switch teams from it. He's doing a fecking cruyff turn in the half way line when he's told to cut that shit out. It helps no one and has nothing to do with management or systems or anything.

Charrager is spot on. Pogba has to help Pogba. What the feck does freedom to play even mean? If it was what he did against Wolves then yeah, feck off because it nets to nothing.

He was important in those teams, I don't know why you're trying to rewrite history, and on top of that he had no issues with Allegri or Conte or Deschamps, or if he did things were handled professionally by the manager and him, but Mourinho has set the tone here of constantly digging out players publicly to blame for his shit management, and now he's butthurt because someone says something publicly he doesn't like. Like I said in another post, feck them both off, get the entire circus out of town, because make no mistake, Mourinho is the circus.

 

[breakout67]

Our own Benteke in a sense that we won't ever be able to play a progressive football with Lukaku in the same way Liverpool couldn't do that with Benteke in the team as Lukaku is not mobile enough, horrible first touch and control in tight spaces, has a poor movement, and poor at build-up play. I guess you read what you want to read.

Everton played progressive football with Lukaku fine, almost as if he's being asked to play a certain way because of the tactics. Black physical striker gets compared to another Black physical striker, and I'm sure it's just by chance, there are ofcourse no other strikers that could have fit that bill. Even a player that also played for Liverpool, that was very tall, big and had a ponytail.

 

[mancan92]

Is it normal to happen in United?

And please don't compare Pogba to Ramos, Casillas and Hazard.

Stop believing we are better or more important than other clubs we are not we are like everyone else.

In our current situation Pogba is the equivalent of our Ronaldo and hazard. He is the man of the team so yes he is the comparable player in this scenario. Instead of being pedantic look at what is in front of you.

A manager with a history of causing trouble with players and having public rows with his most important players in Spanish and in English. The guy is a cancer and spends his time shitting on everyone but himself. What I don’t understand is why any united fan would go to any lengths to defend him after how pathetic he has been when blaming the same fans and the club for his poor results.

 

[M Bison]

Ah yeah, I forgot Benteke is lighting the world up. You don't even understand the comparisons you make. It's as if you've decided you don't rate Lukaku so you play to a racial stereotype and then when people call you out on it you dig your heels in.

Would you mind explaining this comment? I’m lost.

 

[Infra-red]

If you care about defending the principle that the manager is more important than any one player, then the respective abilities of said manager/player are irrelevant.

 

[Ban]

Stop believing we are better or more important than other clubs we are not we are like everyone else.

In our current situation Pogba is the equivalent of our Ronaldo and hazard. He is the man of the team so yes he is the comparable player in this scenario. Instead of being pedantic look at what is in front of you.

A manager with a history of causing trouble with players and having public rows with his most important players in Spanish and in English. The guy is a cancer and spends his time shitting on everyone but himself. What I don’t understand is why any united fan would go to any lengths to defend him after how pathetic he has been when blaming the same fans and the club for his poor results.

First of all don't call anyone a cancer. That's completely OTT.
Second of all no he's not our equivalent of Ronaldo or Hazard. On what grounds? Has he proved it on the pitch? It's not comparable.
I dont think we're better or more important than other clubs and in other clubs a player shouldnt undermine the manager like that whatever you think about the manager.

It's not about defending Mourinho or not. It's taking sides and in this story both of them are at fault. Lets say we sack Mourinho, should Ed ask Pogba who to hire so he likes him?
Or doesn't get Raiola offering him around in 6 months or a year? Or stopping journos to have a wee dig at the manager?
Acting like that is showing he's bigger than the club or he's trying to be. I for one can't believe fans are satisfied with that kind of behavior.

 

[mancan92]

If you care about defending the principle that the manager is more important than any one player, then the respective abilities of said manager/player are irrelevant.

I don’t believe that nonsense to be honest. It depends on the situation no person is bigger than the club. That’s the most important thing.

 

[Devil may care]

He wasn't a key player in Juve nor in France. As it was said here after he left Juve they became even better. Reaching a CL final without their key player...
As for other stuff please tell me, what has Carragher said wrong and with what parts do you not agree and why?

And yes player can't voice their opinion like that. It sets a really dangerous precedent. Who's to say he wouldn't do it again with a new manager in charge. You agree with it and you like it but your hatred of Mourinho is clouding your judgement.

I think he's wrong about how good Pogba is the same as you are wrong IMO, and I think he's wrong to completely ignore that the manager has set the tone of this public laundry washing. We are going absolutlely nowhere under Mourinho, it's as clear as day, yet he's backing the idea of throwing out one of the few top quality players we have to appease a manager who has set the tone of toxic negativity at the club to begin with.

No, I said he should be free to do it because the manager has set that tone for how things are done at the club under him, he publicly digs out players and scapegoats them for bad results, he said he'd put Sevilla players in the team over our own, and basically pissed on the club after his crappy management saw us knocked out by them. You can't do that and then be mad when a player speaks out, if he wants things kept in-house he should lead by example. Yes I loathe Mourinho, I can't see how anyone can still think he's right for Manchester United, but like I have said more than once, get rid of both, ship the entire circus out, I'm just not going to get on a bandwagon that shits on Pogba and defends a man that has started this entire toxicity at the club in motion..

 

[Rajma]

Everton played progressive football with Lukaku fine, almost as if he's being asked to play a certain way because of the tactics. Black physical striker gets compared to another Black physical striker, and I'm sure it's just by chance, there are ofcourse no other strikers that could have fit that bill. Even a player that also played for Liverpool, that was very tall, big and had a ponytail.

Let me just get it clear do you go about accusing people comparing one white player to another as well? Ffs I shouldn’t be even replying to pile of shit like that.

 

[Infra-red]

I don’t believe that nonsense to be honest. It depends on the situation no person is bigger than the club. That’s the most important thing.

No person is bigger than the club, agreed. And no one player is bigger than the manager. As Fergie said numerous times over the years, the manager is the most important person at the club.

It doesn't matter if the player is a marketing dream and the manager is a miserable old has-been.

 

[breakout67]

De Gea is our Hazard/Ronaldo and it's not even debatable.

Pogba has produced nothing close to the level of those players at United. De Gea has been top 5 in his position for several years now. He has also saved our skin over and over.

Pogba has had two good seasons, but nothing extraordinary to give him leverage at the club. He's been here for a few seasons and you have people wanting to bend over backwards, similar to the Martial situation.

De Gea is the only player that has earned strong backing from the club and fans. He has performed over and over and consistently. Something to note as well, De Gea gets on with his business, he doesn't complain that the defence is a disaster and he has to make so many saves and bail us out over and over. That's what top players do, they perform to a certain level as expected.

 

[Ban]

I think he's wrong about how good Pogba is the same as you are wrong IMO, and I think he's wrong to completely ignore that the manager has set the tone of this public laundry washing. We are going absolutlely nowhere under Mourinho, it's as clear as day, yet he's backing the idea of throwing out one of the few top quality players we have to appease a manager who has set the tone of toxic negativity at the club to begin with.

No, I said he should be free to do it because the manager has set that tone for how things are done at the club under him, he publicly digs out players and scapegoats them for bad results, he said he'd put Sevilla players in the team over our own, and basically pissed on the club after his crappy management saw us knocked out by them. You can't do that and then be mad when a player speaks out, if he wants things kept in-house he should lead by example. Yes I loathe Mourinho, I can't see how anyone can still think he's right for Manchester United, but like I have said more than once, get rid of both, ship the entire circus out, I'm just not going to get on a bandwagon that shits on Pogba and defends a man that has started this entire toxicity at the club in motion..

You just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.
He's not backing an idea of throwing Pogba out, he just says if we sack Jose Pogba won't change. And he's right imo.
I'd be happy to see the back of both at this stage. And can't believe some act as if selling Pogba will be the end of the club.
Setting the tone or not. Article is not about that basically. But I guess you need to mention that part. Again.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I want them both gone. Sick of the circus at the club. Throw in Woodward and the Glazers for good measure.

 

[mancan92]

First of all don't call anyone a cancer. That's completely OTT.
Second of all no he's not our equivalent of Ronaldo or Hazard. On what grounds? Has he proved it on the pitch? It's not comparable.
I dont think we're better or more important than other clubs and in other clubs a player shouldnt undermine the manager like that whatever you think about the manager.

It's not about defending Mourinho or not. It's taking sides and in this story both of them are at fault. Lets say we sack Mourinho, should Ed ask Pogba who to hire so he likes him?
Or doesn't get Raiola offering him around in 6 months or a year? Or stopping journos to have a wee dig at the manager?

He is the equivalent of our Ronaldo because everyone in the team, the club and the fans look to him to take us forward and any match in which we play well he is right in the middle of everything. That’s why he is our Ronaldo.

Again stop being pedantic there is no one else in our team except De Gea who is more important to us on the field than Pogba everyone knows it including his team mates.

Pogba doesn’t have a history of this behaviour he hasn’t ever shown it. If it was just Pogba who wasn’t performing then fine but the whole squad isn’t and no one looks happy out there.

Also don’t you remember mourinhos agent also whoring him to PSG?

 

[mancan92]

You just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.
He's not backing an idea of throwing Pogba out, he just says if we sack Jose Pogba won't change. And he's right imo.
I'd be happy to see the back of both at this stage. And can't believe some act as if selling Pogba will be the end of the club.
Setting the tone or not. Article is not about that basically. But I guess you need to mention that part. Again.

How is he right when Pogba has literally never shown this behaviour at any of his previous clubs or at international level

 

[Abdullah7]

I would stick with Pogba.

Jose has no direction. He just wants to get an easy success to boost his stature. However, it's not 2004 where you could out spend your contenders and establish the "special one" persona. He's outdated, out of ideas and should be put down asap.

 

[VP89]

We have the second most expensive squad in Europe for God’s sake are you serious? And let’s be honest we got second last year due to huge amounts of luck and were 6th in the first year.

You can’t even name one player in the squad who has shown a consistent increase in performance and the has been a regression in a lot of players

Of course I can. Shaw has been very good this season. Zlatan was great under Jose in season one. Lukaku last season. Lingard last season. And so on.

Our spending since he joined was 3rd behind Chelsea and we finished 2nd last year. He had a squad miles behind City and finished where he was expected. Don't come out with utter tripe that he hasn't bettered us when it's an undeniable fact that he has. He ended on the highest points and goal difference since SAF left. He spent but he also replaced shit loads of deadwood. Starting with Wayne Rooney to Schweinstiger and Schneiderlin. He bought a proper striker because we didn't have one either.

 

[Ban]

How is he right when Pogba has literally never shown this behaviour at any of his previous clubs or at international level

His way of playing won't change. Did you read the article?

 

[mancan92]

No person is bigger than the club, agreed. And no one player is bigger than the manager. As Fergie said numerous times over the years, the manager is the most important person at the club.

It doesn't matter if the player is a marketing dream and the manager is a miserable old has-been.

Which is better to keep in the club? That’s the question here not whether each of them are bad or not

 

[Utdstar01]

When did he disrespect the club? He never did Jose is the one who disrespected the club, the fans and players. All Pogba did is call out his tactics

So he couldn't come out and put an end to all his agents bullshit and say he wants to be here? Been countless games where he's just lumbered around and tried Hollywood ball one after another constantly giving the ball away. Puts himself above the team.

 

[Devil may care]

You just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.
He's not backing an idea of throwing Pogba out, he just says if we sack Jose Pogba won't change. And he's right imo.
I'd be happy to see the back of both at this stage. And can't believe some act as if selling Pogba will be the end of the club.
Setting the tone or not. Article is not about that basically. But I guess you need to mention that part. Again.

You asked me what I found incorrect about the article, I said I think Carragher is wrong to suggest that Mourinho should be backed over Pogba due to the double standards of that, and I think his evaluation of Pogba as a player is wrong and that him thinking Mourinho is of more use to us is also wrong, so I answered your question, yet all you have said is it's a good article and tried to dissmiss anyone's opinion who thinks it isn't with "It's just because you hate Mourinho.".

Pogba will be hard to replace, make no mistake, the market isn't overflowing with top talent, and we are already a team that needs 4 players with Pogba in it, the money pit isn't bottomless under the Glazers.

 

[Ban]

He is the equivalent of our Ronaldo because everyone in the team, the club and the fans look to him to take us forward and any match in which we play well he is right in the middle of everything. That’s why he is our Ronaldo.

Again stop being pedantic there is no one else in our team except De Gea who is more important to us on the field than Pogba everyone knows it including his team mates.

Pogba doesn’t have a history of this behaviour he hasn’t ever shown it. If it was just Pogba who wasn’t performing then fine but the whole squad isn’t and no one looks happy out there.

Also don’t you remember mourinhos agent also whoring him to PSG?

That's a ridiculous comparison. He's not our Ronaldo.
I'm not being pedantic. He hasn't proved on the pitch he's anywhere close to what Hazard and Ronaldo produced.

And tell me if Mourinho's agent was indeed 'whoring' Jose to PSG how is that bad and Raiola whoring Pogba in January wasnt?

 

[mu4c_20le]

So he couldn't come out and put an end to all his agents bullshit and say he wants to be here? Been countless games where he's just lumbered around and tried Hollywood ball one after another constantly giving the ball away. Puts himself above the team.

Thats uncalled for, and seems to be the go-to criticism whenever a player doesnt follow jose's way. The truth is, their relationship has been rocky for awhile now, theyre not friends, they started out with mutual respect that eventually deteriorated as our results and performances tanked. As for Pogba, can you really blame him for not wanting to end this crap while the club itself is in a period of uncertainty?

 

[Infra-red]

Which is better to keep in the club? That’s the question here not whether each of them are bad or not

According to tomorrow's papers, this is a false dichotomy anyway - Pogba is determined to leave for Spain and will force his way out regardless of whether Mourinho remains United manager or not.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...a-determined-force-man-utd-exit-clashes-jose/

 

[Ban]

You asked me what I found incorrect about the article, I said I think Carragher is wrong to suggest that Mourinho should be backed over Pogba due to the double standards of that, and I think his evaluation of Pogba as a player is wrong and that him thinking Mourinho is of more use to us is also wrong, so I answered your question, yet all you have said is it's a good article and tried to dissmiss anyone's opinion who thinks it isn't with "It's just because you hate Mourinho.".

Pogba will be hard to replace, make no mistake, the market isn't overflowing with top talent, and we are already a team that needs 4 players with Pogba in it, the money pit isn't bottomless under the Glazers.

I'm not trying to dismiss anything, it's just that you repeated the same stuff you already mentioned 100 times already. You just answered my question, you didn't do it before.

 

[mancan92]

His way of playing won't change. Did you read the article?

Same thing. He has shown consistency for France and juventus do there’s no reason he cannot find it with the right coaching

 

[Amir]

He wasn't a key player in Juve nor in France. As it was said here after he left Juve they became even better. Reaching a CL final without their key player...

Juve sold Zidane and reached the CL final two years later. Cantona retired and we won it two years later. It doesn't mean the player wasns't important, just that things were done right at a well run club.

 

[Ban]

Same thing. He has shown consistency for France and juventus do there’s no reason he cannot find it with the right coaching

Seems so you didn't watch him much at Juve (inconsistency was his biggest problem) and comparison of WC and a season long league are well. Wrong.

 

[Ban]

Juve sold Zidane and reached the CL final two years later. Cantona retired and we won it two years later. It doesn't mean the player wasns't important, just that things were done right at a well run club.

He wasn't a key player though.

 

[m1tch]

Pogba's gonna be a never ending saga and his performances on the pitch are not good enough to expect a manager to pander to his every need. Him and his agent will cause the next manager the exact same problems.
I don't know what's going to happen with Jose, I expected he'll not see the end of his contract, but we should sell Pogba especially if we can make money on the deal. I'm not convinced we'll have anyone banging down our door to sign him for that sort of money though.

 

[friendlytramp]

————De Gea
——Lindelöf-Smalling
Dalot——-Matic——Shaw
———-Fred--Fellaini
—Lukaku-Sanchez-Martial

Mourinho

 

[Devil may care]

I'm not trying to dismiss anything, it's just that you repeated the same stuff you already mentioned 100 times already. You just answered my question, you didn't do it before.

I answered it in the previous post, and I've made about 3 replies to you in this thread and you've offered nothing bar "You only disagree because you hate Mourinho" in response to practically everyone that has said Carragher is full of shit. You have mentioned agenda and yet it feels like you have one against Pogba and apparently don't rate Lukaku either, yet I rarely see you on the side of getting rid of Mourinho, it's never his fault from your perspective seemingly.

 

[mancan92]

Of course I can. Shaw has been very good this season. Zlatan was great under Jose in season one. Lukaku last season. Lingard last season. And so on.

Our spending since he joined was 3rd behind Chelsea and we finished 2nd last year. He had a squad miles behind City and finished where he was expected. Don't come out with utter tripe that he hasn't bettered us when it's an undeniable fact that he has. He ended on the highest points and goal difference since SAF left. He spent but he also replaced shit loads of deadwood. Starting with Wayne Rooney to Schweinstiger and Schneiderlin. He bought a proper striker because we didn't have one either.

No please don’t go and so on. Shaw only since the start of the season has looked like a player and he isn’t playing at a higher level than he has played at previously. Lukaku isn’t performing at a higher level he is performing at the level he has previously shown which is a hot and cold striker. Lingard is the only one who you can say has shown improvement. There’s literally no one else

Also we are second not Chelsea.

 

[breakout67]

Same thing. He has shown consistency for France and juventus do there’s no reason he cannot find it with the right coaching

So are we just allowed to flat out lie on this forum now? It's bordering on propaganda.

Pogba did not show consistency for France, he was booed off right before the World Cup. He had a fantastic world cup and won the biggest trophy there is. He had a good tournament, he is not consistent for France.

He was also not consistent for Juventus according to Juventus fans. A recurring theme on Juventus forums was that Pogba started off very consistent but his level wasn't that high, but as he became a better player he also became less consistent but with a high level.

 

[Denis79]

In all honesty both of them are getting tiresome.

 

[Amir]

No person is bigger than the club, agreed. And no one player is bigger than the manager. As Fergie said numerous times over the years, the manager is the most important person at the club.

It doesn't matter if the player is a marketing dream and the manager is a miserable old has-been.

Fergie should have said that no player is bigger than Alex Ferguson. Which would have been right. It just doesn't work that way anymore.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Fergie should have said that no player is bigger than Alex Ferguson. Which would have been right. It just doesn't work that way anymore.