Pogba should certainly have known better, but let's not pretend that Mou's slate is clean. This latest episode reflects very poorly on Mou; he has chosen to make a scene involving Pogba in full view of the cameras, ensuring that this saga will drag on that bit further.
Mourinho tells Paul Pogba he'll never captain Manchester United again
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I didn't say that. I'm not taking any sides in this childish argument between them. Both are wrong and childish for me. The massive defense for Pogba is just puzzling though.
Starting to think it was a stunt from his side to distract us from the Derby result.
He has been refusing to play that descblined and cotrolling role, wants to be pushed forward and often hangs his partner to dry when it comes to defensive duties, then go to France and play even more defensive for them with descipline. Must have been annoying to see.
Some people, including myself, have some degree of sympathy for him for a few reasons:
1. The team doesn't seem to be progressing under Mou. I can't imagine that Pogba is the only disgruntled player in that squad.
2. When the team performs badly, Pogba seems to cop a significant amount of flak for it (unlike the likes of Valencia, Sanchez, Lukaku, etc). Shaw remarked on it as well. I don't think Pogba enjoys it.
3. It's going to be much harder to replace Pogba than Mou.
That's not to say he hasn't made mistakes, of course he has.
That's a lot of assumption, you don't know what are the instruction and Pogba isn't really good at controlling anyway.
If that's the case he miscalculated badly. The negativity surrounding the club is so strong, it's almost suffocating at the moment, and that's before this latest episode.
Man manager my arse.
Second point doesn't stand does it ? Who do you mean giving him flak ? If fans, then you can see how performance threads for all players are going
, and if Mourinho, he actually defended him a lot previously, and his quotes about him this season seemes reasonable up till this break point.I see Pogba defending in this World Cup far more than his whole 2 years here. It doesn't reflect well. It shows that he's willing to run through the walls for France but not much for United. He doesn't even track back much here.
Or the coach for France gives him a different job and set of instructions....
I'm not surprised at all that he went about it the way he did even if he had the knowledge of camera's being there. It's Mourinho after all.
I wonder will he get the Schweinsteiger treatment if this fallout continues to drag on?
Exactly. Anyways we need Pogba to do more than he did for France as without him we don't create chances and there isn't anyone who can carry the attack.
From the media, not the fans. I mean, Valencia has been poor for a long time now, yet you rarely hear pundits discussing him at all. Mou has been inconsistent in his treatment of Pogba since he's been here, supported him at times but also had his little digs where he can, like he did after the world cup.Second point doesn't stand does it ? Who do you mean giving him flak ? If fans, then you can see how performance threads for all players are going
France and United don't play the same way, he doesn't have the same role and the players around him do not have the same roles. He was actually asked about it during the WC and simply said that it wasn't comparable because Deschamps had different instructions.
Good post. That's how I see it as well.
I want to back Jose. I supported him taking over LVG, and I've backed him until now. He's stepped out of line with a few of his comments and I haven't liked his treatment of a couple of players (mostly Martial), but overall he has improved us year on year. But I'm reaching the point where it's looking like he can't improve us much further, while we are playing poor football which he doesn't seem to know how to improve, and now he's falling out with the players. And in this Mourinho vs Pogba thing that is going on at the moment (I am very doubtful about things like this as the media constantly make things up, but this now looks legit), one has a history of this happening while the other has never had this issue before.
You are assuming that playing that same role which worked for France is going to work for us. Plus I have no idea how you know all this. We don’t really have to manufacture things to blame him. There are enough reasons already. It’s also blindly dumb to choose a player like Pogba and then expect him to turn into Busquets.
We are back to square one if we lose Pogba. He needs to be here for a few years at least while we make a transition. Otherwise we're left reminiscing about the glory days of Scholes and Keane and wondering when we're going to finally replace them.
Also Pogba covered same distance on an average for France as he does for ManUtd. He just won more duels as he played defensive role whereas for ManUtd he scores and assists lot as he plays attacking role.
Its not a pogba vs jose, fans want jose out as he has failed, his first season was great, 2nd season so and so and now it is a complete failure, no results, boring football...its time for jose to leave
He wants out, regardless of who the manager is, and will eventually get his move. That's football unfortunately.
You quote me a lot these days don't you ?
That role was sure more defensive than anything given for him by Mourinho then. Not sure why the WC argument is used when it proves that he can play in the role Mourinho wanted him to but isn't doing it here. If he has played in a more offensive role I would have agreed.
That wasn't the first time. In Euro final 2016 he played as a number 6 and his job was to give the ball to Matuidi and Sissoko and let them attack. He wasn't even passing the central line in this match.
For the media part I agree, they talk about who will give them more views.
Why? If a player shite, he is immediately dropped and gets sold. So why not the manager? What makes us so special that the managers we appoint should be treated like supreme commanders?
exactly, so support a manager that will take us to ruins because of the so called ''principles''. By this reason we should have stuck with moyes!
I'm not talking about instructions and tactical roles. I'm talking about him defending and tracking back, something he did loads of times during WC while here he usually hangs his partner to dry once he loses the ball. You can't ignore the difference between his defensive duties with France and here.
You quote me a lot these days don't you ?
That role was sure more defensive than anything given for him by Mourinho then. Not sure why the WC argument is used when it proves that he can play in the role Mourinho wanted him to but isn't doing it here. If he has played in a more offensive role I would have agreed.
That wasn't the first time. In Euro final 2016 he played as a number 6 and his job was to give the ball to Matuidi and Sissoko and let them attack. He wasn't even passing the central line in this match.
But that's the point, he isn't asked to play like that for United. He is seemingly expected to provide more offensively and it will logically have an impact on his defensive contribution.
I’m very much in the Mourinho Out camp but I actually take his side on this one. Pogba has behaved like an absolute diva in all this and because he’s won the World Cup he thinks he’s gods gift on this earth.
Now that I think about it there was probably a reason SAF let him bugger off to Juve.
Now that I think about it there was probably a reason SAF let him bugger off to Juve.
Who said that ? All I say is WC brings more problem about how much he cares about United in comparison to national team. He was willing to run through the walls for them. 2 years here and I honestly can't see it. I only see what I'm seeing.
You quote me a lot these days don't you ?
That role was sure more defensive than anything given for him by Mourinho then. Not sure why the WC argument is used when it proves that he can play in the role Mourinho wanted him to but isn't doing it here. If he has played in a more offensive role I would have agreed.
That wasn't the first time. In Euro final 2016 he played as a number 6 and his job was to give the ball to Matuidi and Sissoko and let them attack. He wasn't even passing the central line in this match.
Its doens't prove it, Pogba said himself that Deschamps gives him different instructions.
In fact when Pogba first arrived, Jose mentioned him as a box to box player, who can be effective in both boxes, not a defensive player who plays deep and sprays passes from deep.
So it seems you have a different idea of what Jose wants from Pogba to what Jose has said publicly.
Your last line highlights the point that he is clearly following different instructions doesn't it? He doesn't play that way for United at all and it doesn't sound like anything what Jose has said he wants either.
I don't see how it shows he cares differently, it just shows me he can play differently under different managers.
EDIT: Haha yes I have noticed we have had a few back and forths lately
Regarding Mourinho comments about his form in WC, he looks to be wanting him to play a similar role with similar descipline here, a box to box that launches counters but has defensive duties.
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Again I'm not talking about tactical instructions. I'm talking about him defending, tracking back and his willingness to do it. He loses the ball here and he doesn't even track back much or tries to get it again, usually hangs his partner to dry, while in France he does his defensive duties to max. That shows he's willing to run his socks off for France. 2 years in here and honestly can't see it. Didn't see it any time here.
And Mourinho quotes re his World Cup form proves he wants him to play in a similar way, a midfielder who launches counters but with defensice duties, an all rounded midfielder.
He might/might not care. But I would build a case for him not caring based on his interviews, yapping to the press, disdain for the coach(which is fair). rather than basing it on how he plays on the ground. He literally has been our best players the last few matches even with mistakes.
Most of that is good sensible management - not much to quibble with there. It's entirely appropriate for the club to make whatever internal enquiries they deem necessary and to speak to Mourinho about his behaviour, about the results, about the morale of the players etc etc Context is obviously important when it comes to resolving whatever underlying issues exist.
However, there also have to be some red lines. It is wrong for a player to criticize his manager publicly, regardless of the context. It is wrong for a club to sack a manager just because an individual player doesn't like him, regardless of the context.
In that case you need to surround him with the correct players because even for France Pobga makes plenty of mistakes in a more conservative role, the difference is that he has teammates that covers for him, even Giroud covers for the midfielders which is admirable. I don't know if you realize it but what you are arguing about is the reason why Deschamps selects the players that he selects, Pogba does his part but the balance comes from the 10 outfield players, if you isolate them you will notice that almost all of them do less than their potential. Pogba does more for Manchester than he does for France but the limited role is combined with other players.
Actually France was playing with a more boring defensive setup than United.
I do agree. And I think it should be Jose, as he is older and should know how to handle a 24 year old who is quite immature for his age.
I don't want him to turn to full defensive midfieldera. What I'm talking about is if you lose the ball, you run immediately and make an attempt to either gets it or fouls the player. That's a basic midfielder duty. He's not supposed to be fully defensive but when we lose the ball he needs to a defensive job much like any other midfielder, something he did well for France.
It's getting to a point where if we draw a match, the knives are out and people call for Jose to be sacked.
I see no reason for a change in manager, just yet.
Regarding Pogba - if he is desperate to leave, then he should be allowed to leave.