I have to think the players will side with Pogba over Mourinho, who has not been a good leader for them. Whether it's the way he's criticized them, antagonized them, trashed them in Luke Shaw and Martial's case, his whole man-management, including the inclusion of Sanchez has been absolutely dreadful. If anyone actually believes Mourinho is gaining control of the dressing room by going against one of his best and more popular player who basically said what they're all thinking, including the fans, I think they'll be surprised over the next few weeks. I can't help but feel Mourinho will implode this dressing room and then get sacked regardless, with or without Pogba still in the team. The fact that they go out there every game and look completely clueless to me is a bigger sign than anything coming out of the media that they are tuning out Mourinho, he has already lost them IMO and I feel he will continue to lose them more with this Pogba episode.
I can't see how the situation improves from here on out, even if they get rid of Pogba it will only make this team far worse than it already is, with more pressure on Mourinho and less scapegoats in the absence of Pogba. It's going to be a spectacle, and I'm legitimately sorry that a club like United is going through that, but it's pretty fascinating to follow.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What makes you believe another manager would be throwing his players under the bus? It's not just about Mourinho blaming them for everything, it's also him never taking any responsibilities. It's a sign of weak leadership that no one would respond well to. Now, I don't know how he is with the players behind closed doors, but even if in private he takes some of the blame, the fact that he won't do it for the cameras will never play well with the team. I don't believe that a manager like Zidane, for example, would throw his players under the bus and at times abuse them like Mourinho has done with a few of them (that being said, I don't want Zidane here...just using his personality as an example).But this makes Pogba seem like he's a dressing room leader/someone to admire.
Believe you me, even if Jose goes due to the players siding with Pogba - there'll be another man throwing them all uner the bus by June 2019.
Paul Pogba himself, when he declares a player of his calibre deserves better players around him and that's why he's moving to a real world-class club in Barcelona.
No evidence Mourinho has lost some in the dressing room?Don't tell me you feel sorry for Woodward now, too!?
What Mourinho has or hasn't said about Shaw or whoever else in the squad is irrelevant, unless you think Pogba is fighting their battles for them here? Shaw has had far more public criticism from Mourinho than Pogba has. For all his fitness/weight problems, he has at least kept his gob mostly shut, knuckled down and played his way, finally, back in to contention. What has or hasn't happened at other clubs is also, obviously, immaterial. There's no evidence that Mourinho has lost the United dressingroom, or anything like it.
What Pogba should have taken from Mourinho's World Cup comments is, "I need to work a bit harder to satisfy my boss at club level." What he actually took from it... frankly who cares? Whatever it was, it certainly doesn't give him the justification to come out with the kind of shite we've seen in the last few weeks. Mourinho might be a miserable ass sometimes (or possibly all the time) but you simply cannot have players publicly undermining the manager in that way.
This is spot on. It's the same rubbish as at Chelsea and Real, but they were wise enough not to sell Ramos, Hazard etc.I have to think the players will side with Pogba over Mourinho, who has not been a good leader for them. Whether it's the way he's criticized them, antagonized them, trashed them in Luke Shaw and Martial's case, his whole man-management, including the inclusion of Sanchez has been absolutely dreadful. If anyone actually believes Mourinho is gaining control of the dressing room by going against one of his best and more popular player who basically said what they're all thinking, including the fans, I think they'll be surprised over the next few weeks. I can't help but feel Mourinho will implode this dressing room and then get sacked regardless, with or without Pogba still in the team. The fact that they go out there every game and look completely clueless to me is a bigger sign than anything coming out of the media that they are tuning out Mourinho, he has already lost them IMO and I feel he will continue to lose them more with this Pogba episode.
I can't see how the situation improves from here on out, even if they get rid of Pogba it will only make this team far worse than it already is, with more pressure on Mourinho and less scapegoats in the absence of Pogba. It's going to be a spectacle, and I'm legitimately sorry that a club like United is going through that, but it's pretty fascinating to follow.
If there's any truth to that (not sure I'd throw my lot in with Ogden, Dawson and Gab Marcotti on ESPN), it's even more reason to nip in the bud the kind of shite Pogba has recently been spouting, before all the players start thinking it's perfectly okay to down tools and make a mockery of the club they play for and the fans who support it, just because they don't like the guy in charge.No evidence Mourinho has lost some in the dressing room?
http://www.espn.com/soccer/manchest...gry-and-frustrated-with-jose-mourinho-sources
If you think Jose behavior is “immaterial” and his history says nothing, you may be in for a surprise this season!
By the time Jose left Chelsea, Hazard and co. were losing almost every game. After he left, they started winning.
If they think he's damaging the team - and their careers - what can they do? Go talk to Woodward? Stay silent and hope Mourinho gets fired?And no, this doesn't justify them criticising the manager in public, either; that's never okay, no matter what you think of him.
Tell Ed and let him take the decision.If they think he's damaging the team - and their careers - what can they do? Go talk to Woodward? Stay silent and hope Mourinho gets fired?
It's a tough spot.
Speak to Mourinho face-to-face. Failing that, speak to higher authorities at the club. Their final option is to leave.If they think he's damaging the team - and their careers - what can they do? Go talk to Woodward? Stay silent and hope Mourinho gets fired?
It's a tough spot.
You’d be right if managers were kings. But they aren’t.If there's any truth to that (not sure I'd throw my lot in with Ogden, Dawson and Gab Marcotti on ESPN), it's even more reason to nip in the bud the kind of shite Pogba has recently been spouting, before all the players start thinking it's perfectly okay to down tools and make a mockery of the club they play for and the fans who support it, just because they don't like the guy in charge.
And no, this doesn't justify them criticising the manager in public, either; that's never okay, no matter what you think of him.
Remember when Ranieri was struggling at Leicester following their title win and there were rumours that the players had voiced their dissatisfaction to senior management? Carragher and Neville were scathing when they said the players should just shut up and take responsibility for the results.Tell Ed and let him take the decision.
What if it was already done and nothing happened? You'd figure Pogba has voiced his concern in the summer when he asked to leave.Tell Ed and let him take the decision.
Well, Pogba got to the stage where he asked to leave. Wasn't allowed to. What now?Speak to Mourinho face-to-face. Failing that, speak to higher authorities at the club. Their final option is to leave.
Then put your head down then and work for fecking the team and let what happens happens I believe ? Since when bitching in the media help anyone ? It sure as hell does't help the players nor the team. It's not your job. You expressed your opinion to CEO. He's responsible for the decision, not you as a player.What if it was already done and nothing happened? You'd figure Pogba has voiced his concern in the summer when he asked to leave.
There is no point in discussing this any longer. But I'll tell you this, you seem to have a very outdated view of the manager position in our club, you still seem to think any manager of us should be treated like Sir Alex Ferguson was.In answer to your first question, yep. He's the manager, the boss. If the player doesn't like it he can express his dissatisfaction to the manager's face, or to higher authorities at the club, or he can leave.
Regarding the rest of your post, Mourinho has generally been very complimentary about Pogba in public, defending his transfer fee, praising his performances and hailing him as a future star. Mourinho's comments in the summer about Pogba's performances at the World Cup were hardly controversial and certainly do not warrant the kind of behaviour we've seen from Pogba in recent weeks (eg post-Wolves).
Answered above.
He could hand in a formal transfer request.Well, Pogba got to the stage where he asked to leave. Wasn't allowed to. What now?
Indeed they should. You presumably would rather Paul Pogba takes over responsibility for managing the team?There is no point in discussing this any longer. But I'll tell you this, you seem to have a very outdated view of the manager position in our club, you still seem to think any manager of us should be treated like Sir Alex Ferguson was.
I don't know why people get so excited about 'formal' transfer requests. United will say no and nothing changes.He could hand in a formal transfer request.
He won't, that will cost him money. Instead, he and his agent will be as disruptive as possible until he gets the move to Spain he's reportedly been planning for 2.5 years.
Then he'll run his contract down. Nowhere in this scenario is the player suddenly permitted to talk shite in public about his manager.I don't know why people get so excited about 'formal' transfer requests. United will say no and nothing changes.
But we wouldn't be playing with 10 men if you take out Paul Pogba from the team. You can't say it's definitive that we'd score 1 goal instead of 7, who is to say we wouldn't have scored more?We'd likely be in the lower half of the table had Pogba not been responsible for 6 goals in 7. He'd even have a better record if the front 3 got their act together. People think due to his laid back demeanour he's not trying.
4 of those picked up their form and grew as players though.You can understand if Mourinho fell out with one player. However, falling out with players has been a recurring theme during his tenure. Shaw, Smalling, Pogba, Bailly, Martial, Jones. There are also recent rumours circulating of a fallout with Rashford.
Check the teams' record when Pogba doesn't play. If it's better without him in the team I'll concede my point.But we wouldn't be playing with 10 men if you take out Paul Pogba from the team. You can't say it's definitive that we'd score 1 goal instead of 7, who is to say we wouldn't have scored more?
Only Shaw has improved. What's to say he was restricted by his injuries and now fulfilling his vast potential. He's also in the final year of his contract. He has basically no choice but to bust a gut. Martial was already good before Mourinho came.4 of those picked up their form and grew as players though.
I also think Martial will come good.
Which 4?4 of those picked up their form and grew as players though.
I also think Martial will come good.
Well that's a bogus argument, Sultan. The robots thing is pretty much what Zlatan levelled at Barcelona and Pep when he made his escape yet he seemed a big fan of the way Mourinho's operates. Nobody could accuse his Chelsea or Inter teams of lacking personality. The trick is deploying your disparate personalities in a way that serves the collective. Do you think Pogba is serving the collective?We as fans have been singing attack, attack, attack for years. If Pogba saying something similar hurts Mourinho's ego, then tough! Do something about the issue. The fans have been pretty patient for over 2 seasons and the club has supported him with massive funds. No excuses or deflection of blame.
Don't expect all footballers to be robots and bow to your previous trophy count or your title as the manager.
With the option United have, that could be until 2022. A player only has one career, short, and his prime is even shorter. If you think you have a boss who is ruining your career, would your really shut up, do nothing and just accept that? Or is that expected only of football players?Then he'll run his contract down. Nowhere in this scenario is the player suddenly permitted to talk shite in public about his manager.
Maybe they're just not very good?Smalling and Herrera had their best seasons under LvG. I haven't seen any improvement in the players he inherited. Martial and Rashford should have improved massively due being a few years older.
I'm not saying Pogba is a saint. Chelsea teams did lack attacking flair. If I remember correctly the style of football was being quoted as the reasons he was sacked during his first stint.Well that's a bogus argument, Sultan. The robots thing is pretty much what Zlatan levelled at Barcelona and Pep when he made his escape yet he seemed a big fan of the way Mourinho's operates. Nobody could accuse his Chelsea or Inter teams of lacking personality. The trick is deploying your disparate personalities in a way that serves the collective. Do you think Pogba is serving the collective?
I'm not happy with either one of them. Anybody painting this as Good vs Evil from either perspective is plain wrong. The club is the priority. Both are serving their own image. I've a pain in my hoop listening to both of them.
It just doesn't work that way. A manager has to earn that power. Even Fergie of 1986 or even 1996 didn't have the power he would later.Indeed they should. You presumably would rather Paul Pogba takes over responsibility for managing the team?
More than a million quid a month for kicking balls on a lawn. Poor him.With the option United have, that could be until 2022. A player only has one career, short, and his prime is even shorter. If you think you have a boss who is ruining your career, would your really shut up, do nothing and just accept that? Or is that expected only of football players?
It's earned by virtue of the fact he is the manager. It's a hierarchy and Pogba is below the manager in it. It has to be that way or the lunatics take over the asylum.It just doesn't work that way. A manager has to earn that power. Even Fergie of 1986 or even 1996 didn't have the power he would later.
Someone above said he'd improved players. I was replying to their question.Maybe they're just not very good?
Or maybe they are and Mourinho is doing a poor job. He will probably be fired sometime between now and May next year. Not sure what any if this has to do with the topic of this thread, though.
All of that is most likely correct.I'm not saying Pogba is a saint. Chelsea teams did lack attacking flair. If I remember correctly the style of football was being quoted as the reasons he was sacked during his first stint.
He might be a great coach but his personality and man management are short of what is required at a club of United's stature. Bobby Charlton was correct in his opposition. Unfortunately, United were desperate to appoint anyone after LvG. Anyone was an improvement after that excuse of a manager.
