No, the debate is "Had Van Gaal stayed, would we have fared any worse than this ". The answer is categorically "yes".
I was refencing the debate between you and I. As per the wider debate my answer is no. He'd have finished his rebuilding job. What we've been left with is a half way house that benefitted nobody. Especially not a boss like Mourinho, who is being unfairly treated like its all his fault.
I'm having 2 separate conversations at the same time here so I may be overlapping them, but your point was that LVG wants to leave his squad thin so "everyone gets a chance". If Rashford and Martial are regular first choice players and he has depth in attack with experienced players, how does he do that?
By having deliberately having a thin first team squad. We established that already.....
On playing players in their natural positions, I can only assume you're joking. Lingard debuted at right wing back, McNair is a midfield player and Fosu Mensah played all across the back line . After complaining about a lack of wide players, he bought Memphis and started the season with him as a number 10!
Let's not be disingenuous here.
Lingard only started as a wing back due to us being in an extreme injury situation when LVG he first arrived. He never did it again once he was settled as a manager.
As for Memphis, it was due to the same issue. Same thing when we visited Watford during a striker injury crisis and we played he and lingard as a twin striker pair.
Fosu Mensah it was the same thing. His roles changed in defense due to injury. McNair is probably the only player he kept out of position on purpose because he debuted in defense and did a very good job there for him.
That's not even getting started on Rooney in midfield, Di Maria up front, Blind at centre back, etc.
Let's do. I don't see why people constantly pretend Blind was 'out of position'. This is a guy who came from Ajax capable of comfortable operating at left back, left wing back, left center half and central midfield. The only thing one can claim is he was short for a cemtral defender. Not that he was 'out of position'. I also don't see how playing Di Maria in a free role off a striker in a 5-3-2 set up is 'playing him out of position'. Or 'as a striker' I'm shocked people bought into Di Maria's hypocritical trying to blame his own unproffesionalism on his boss.
The only blind spot LVG had was his official captain that happened to be Rooney. He'd move heaven and earth to play him in the team if fit rather than bench him for his awful form. That is the real reason Rooney was in midfield, not anything else.
I'm not going to pretend Jose should stay on as manager. The wheels have come off and he shows no signs of being able to turn it around, but his first 18 months were largely positive. The attack he inherited (in an era where even a decent forward costs £75m) was shambolic. One over the hill striker who couldn't make it at Everton and 2 kids is an absolute disgrace of an attack for someone who inherited one of the best front 4s in the league in Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck. That is a £300m + hole to fill. He should have been sacked for that alone. Ibra on a free was an absolute godsend but his injury was a massive blow.
As I said before. We dumped Mourinho in the middle of a construction site still litered with potential blue prints and debrit. Yet worse our board has been treating him in the market like he imherited a finished house. It's grossly
Unfair to him. Even if I believe he was always a wrong successor to a van gaal.
I'd much prefer that we gave him a real chance by supporting him after he got us to secomd against the odds last season. Instead we got this disaster of a season post a terrible transfer window that was all the chairman's fault.
Fosu Mensah is a good example of LVG identifying talent but is about the only one. Martial was a big money club signing (he was on the club's radar before LVG was) and Rashford was a complete accident
It matters not how many times that myth is repeated, it is un true. Rashford's emergence was NEVER an accident. By virtue of the our thin first team squad and Rashford's talent, he was always going to make his debit at one point. The only thing up in the air was whether he'd seize that chance as well as he did.
. I still remember LVG sulking in the press conference about how the next manager would get more value out of Martial than he would.
You cant be serious! That was LVG patimg himself on the back post Liverpool games for a) finding a top young attacker talent the press aand punditry he was at war with had zero clues about and b) bigging up his own foresight by saying he makes 'long term signinga for the benefit of Giggs'
To claim he was sulking his hilarious. You super misunderstood him. Infact he was in his most arrogant peacock mode....
On the other hand, limiting playing time of Pereira, Tuanzebe and selling Michael Keane indicates a distinct lack of ability to identify talent.
Bullshit. Tuanzebe already established was never going to debt out of position. Then everything time he had a chance to there was no injury crisis and he was just on the bench. Or he was injured. To pretend he wasn't ever on LVGs radar is just plain lying.
As for Pereira he like Januzaj fell foul of LVG's strict team ethic rules. It has zilch to do with his ability. That bet on corners in a reserve game cost both dear. Keane is the only one he can be accused of letting slip through his fingers
In relation to player development, his big young signing Memphis flopped, he placed huge faith in James Wilson who went backwards under LVG, as did Januzaj who looked a real genuine talent in the previous season. He chose McNair and Blackett over Keane and how did they develop under him?
So you want to play THAT game huh?
How was Keane supposed to fair as a left center half for boss that wanted a left footed one? Over the left football Blackett?
Mc Nair also debuted after Keane had already left. So I'm wondering how that can count as choosing him over a Keane...
How did Lingard, Martial, Borthwick- Jackson, Fosu Mensah, Mc Nair and Rashord fair under him as compared to JM?
How much also did the likes of Smalling, Valencia and Young etc improve?
Its always also awful convenient to site Memphis who was given ample chance and mostly failed. Only shining as a central forward. Which LVG ironically had the fore sight to claim it could prove his best position. With Memphis' current career path pretty much proving strike and not winger was his true calling.
Your only "concrete proof" that I am wrong is one of the club's highest ever signings and 2 kids who played under him for a few months.
Rather the concrete 'pro of' is you being disingenuous about plenty when it comes to LVG
One of my lasting memories of LVG is the Ireland vs Holland game in Dublin, where Ireland won with 10 men. His naivity in throwing on striker after striker and lumping the ball into the box where Richard Dunne was waiting was absolutely incredible. He was out coached by Mick McCarthy that day. Just let that one sink in.
Really mate? Its like we've never seen big managers like Fergie have bad days vs inferior bosses (remember the Dell hammering which fergie tried to freaking blame on rain?) ...me thinks you just plain hate the guy because this is extreme reaching......