Comfortably. The football is worse, the results are currently worse and the outlay has been stratospheric. The League Cup and Europa League trophies count for sod all.
Had Van Gaal stayed... Would he have fared any worse than this?
- Thread starter Tomuś
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The debate was about whether he'd give genuinely good youth a chance. It wasnt about the merits of having a thing squad that can only be supported by youth.
Its is real dumb to claim LVG would have a team with Rashfird and Martial starting 'supported by Bohui and De learney'. He did invest in the likes of Di Maria and Falcao. They flopped and let worse player and kids over take them in the pecking order. You need to stop pretending LVG sat sown one day and chose to pick kids over perfoeming seniors.
That is a lie. Tuenzebe was always going to break into LVGs first squad eventually, that is why he started even making match day squads Just strictly in his most natural role. To claim a player as talented as he 'wouldn't get games' because a manager refuses to play him out of position just to hand him game time is laughable. The Donald Love's got to play because they were naturals in the postions they were picked. It had absolutely nothing to do with preventing better talent from playing nor overlooking the likes of Tuanzebe for them. LVG believed a young player was always best debuted in a role most natural to them. That is why even most of the youth players he handed debuts were nothing special, none of them gave horrendous accounts of themselves. Often it was the seniors around then who let the team down.
which is what happens during rebuilding. Fergie is literally the only manager alive who could maintan his top 4 status and honors challenging in the middle of a rebuild. Even When our team personnel got so dire between 2005-2007. I don't believe anyone else in europe could. Most on here rate Mourinho as way better than LVG. Yet even he finished below LVGs worst position in his first year.
Fosu Mensah, Martial and Rashford are concrete proof you are dead wrong.
This isn’t about playing minutes or how many times the players are getting on the pitch. This is about players are actually playing regularly. Those two can’t be matured and show consistency of performance without getting regular playing time week in week out. Lukaku & Matic are getting regular playing time even when they are out of form, but Rashford & Martial right away dropped and sit on the bench just because they don’t score for 1-2 games.
It’s not achievement to finish top 4. We are Manchester United, you either winning it or not winning it. Being first or not being first.
We finished 7th in Mourinho’s first season and this season we are likely to finish outside top 4. What makes you think Jose is not worse than LVG?
At the very least with LVG we don’t waste money on players that can stop Rashford & Martial development. Those two would have getting regular playing time just like Rooney & Ronaldo when they were teen.
Do you actually think it was the only reason? In his book Sir Alex has mentioned about RVN disagree with him for not signing top class players and instead relying on inexperienced players like Rooney, Fletcher and Ronaldo.
I don’t have faith in LVG to deliver it, you are the one who interpreted it differently. I was saying that stay with LVG for another season until his contract end is a better option than hiring Mourinho. At least with LVG I can see sign of positive that he’s giving young players chances and likely to give Rashford & Martial more regular playing time than what Mourinho have done, that will benefit for the next manager.
Players can’t get better by just watching on the bench and we wasted our money on Sanchez, Lukaku and was about to sign Perisic just for that. I see zero positive under Mourinho.
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How on Earth can Jose keep playing Matic and Lukaku day in and day out when they have been so terrible? Martial needs a few minutes here and there and if he does not chase back even one player Jose has a go at him. Matic can escort the opposing players to out goal all day long and Jose says nothing and keeps him playing.
The man has to go now. He was a winner and now he is not a winner but a loser and we do not need losers at United.
I was wanting LVG gone too but this is much worse than the boring football LVG played. At least with LVG he has never been a defensive minded coach like Jose and once his philosophy is implemented his teams played good football.
The man has to go now. He was a winner and now he is not a winner but a loser and we do not need losers at United.
I was wanting LVG gone too but this is much worse than the boring football LVG played. At least with LVG he has never been a defensive minded coach like Jose and once his philosophy is implemented his teams played good football.
Van Gaal was done. Also, Van Gaal is a massive bellend. No one should ever miss him.
Replacing him with one of the few even bigger bellends in football was the problem.
Replacing him with one of the few even bigger bellends in football was the problem.
Fans would have be using the stadium as a place to take an afternoon nap.
I’ve been to many games over the years, mostly United games, but I have also been to other games as well as united games. The only time I saw fans actually asleep at a ground was at old Trafford when van gaal was managing us.
How some fans can miss him or his football is beyond me. You all must have short memories.
Passing the ball in triangles between a back 5 seems to be a philosophy according to some in here. I think I would rather see us getting battered than doing nothing, atleast we get a bit of action.
I’ve been to many games over the years, mostly United games, but I have also been to other games as well as united games. The only time I saw fans actually asleep at a ground was at old Trafford when van gaal was managing us.
How some fans can miss him or his football is beyond me. You all must have short memories.
Passing the ball in triangles between a back 5 seems to be a philosophy according to some in here. I think I would rather see us getting battered than doing nothing, atleast we get a bit of action.
I think its fair to say the club would have had more stability. We'd also have secured long term contracts for most of our youth players and prospects including Martial. We would almost certainly have lost De Gea though. Having said that, I don't think LvG would have got us challenging for honours and I'm not convinced we'd have continued to perform well against the forever improving top teams.
There is no reason to believe that Van Gaal would have done better. He was here for two seasons when Premier League was weak especially in 2015-16. A decent manager would have had us in the title race that season. He sold a number of useful players and spent a lot of money to buy players of similar or lesser quality. Sacking Van Gaal was the right decision. In fact, another top club wouldn't have kept him for the whole 2015-16 season. His brand of Football still gives me nightmares.
No, the debate is "Had Van Gaal stayed, would we have fared any worse than this". The answer is categorically "yes".
I'm having 2 separate conversations at the same time here so I may be overlapping them, but your point was that LVG wants to leave his squad thin so "everyone gets a chance". If Rashford and Martial are regular first choice players and he has depth in attack with experienced players, how does he do that? How do Bohui and Dearnley get their chance? How do Rashford and Martial get more playing time than under Jose?
On playing players in their natural positions, I can only assume you're joking. Lingard debuted at right wing back, McNair is a midfield player and Fosu Mensah played all across the back line. After complaining about a lack of wide players, he bought Memphis and started the season with him as a number 10! That's not even getting started on Rooney in midfield, Di Maria up front, Blind at centre back, etc.
I'm not going to pretend Jose should stay on as manager. The wheels have come off and he shows no signs of being able to turn it around, but his first 18 months were largely positive. The attack he inherited (in an era where even a decent forward costs £75m) was shambolic. One over the hill striker who couldn't make it at Everton and 2 kids is an absolute disgrace of an attack for someone who inherited one of the best front 4s in the league in Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck. That is a £300m + hole to fill. He should have been sacked for that alone. Ibra on a free was an absolute godsend but his injury was a massive blow.
Fosu Mensah is a good example of LVG identifying talent but is about the only one. Martial was a big money club signing (he was on the club's radar before LVG was) and Rashford was a complete accident. I still remember LVG sulking in the press conference about how the next manager would get more value out of Martial than he would.
On the other hand, limiting playing time of Pereira, Tuanzebe and selling Michael Keane indicates a distinct lack of ability to identify talent.
In relation to player development, his big young signing Memphis flopped, he placed huge faith in James Wilson who went backwards under LVG, as did Januzaj who looked a real genuine talent in the previous season. He chose McNair and Blackett over Keane and how did they develop under him?
Your only "concrete proof" that I am wrong is one of the club's highest ever signings and 2 kids who played under him for a few months. Hardly evidence he was going to turn them into superstars.
One of my lasting memories of LVG is the Ireland vs Holland game in Dublin, where Ireland won with 10 men. His naivity in throwing on striker after striker and lumping the ball into the box where Richard Dunne was waiting was absolutely incredible. He was out coached by Mick McCarthy that day. Just let that one sink in.
Yes. First of all he wouldnt have won the Europa league or many key games we've won to not get embarrassed, Chelsea home in the first year, Liverpool home last year come to mind.
He definitely wouldnt have come second last season, at a stretch fourth. He is a manager that has degraded badly, he is basically equivalent to Wenger if not worse. Mourinho will leave or get sacked in summer and go to another top club and win half decent trophies at the least.
He definitely wouldnt have come second last season, at a stretch fourth. He is a manager that has degraded badly, he is basically equivalent to Wenger if not worse. Mourinho will leave or get sacked in summer and go to another top club and win half decent trophies at the least.
Ok, so the question was "Had Van Gaal stayed, would we have fared any worse".
Your opinion is "yes, but Martial and Rashford would have played more minutes"? If that's the case, then yes, I agree with you.
This
Mourinho:
We don’t win major trophy, we tried to waste a lot of money on overpriced players just so we can have both Rashford & Martial sit on the bench, & we struggle to get top 4.
LVG:
We don’t win major trophy, instead of wasting money on overpriced players we are giving regular playing time to Rashford & Martial & we struggle to get top 4.
Tell me which one is worse?
You are absolutely obsessing over 2 players. Martial and Rashford are not Ronaldo and Rooney and are unlikely to ever reach that type of level.
What is worse? The one where you spend £250m in 2 seasons and the next manager comes in and wants to sell every single one of your signings.
That's probably worse than signing Lukaku (the first choice striker of the team that finished 3rd in the world cup and one of the top scorers in the EPL over the last number of years) and Sanchez (one of the best players in the EPL over the last 5 years).
Also the one where your best player by an absolute mile would have left if the clueless cretin of a manager hadn't been sacked. I'd say that one is worse than a couple of talented but inconsistent kids spending some time on the bench.
I was refencing the debate between you and I. As per the wider debate my answer is no. He'd have finished his rebuilding job. What we've been left with is a half way house that benefitted nobody. Especially not a boss like Mourinho, who is being unfairly treated like its all his fault.
By having deliberately having a thin first team squad. We established that already.....
Let's not be disingenuous here.
Lingard only started as a wing back due to us being in an extreme injury situation when LVG he first arrived. He never did it again once he was settled as a manager.
As for Memphis, it was due to the same issue. Same thing when we visited Watford during a striker injury crisis and we played he and lingard as a twin striker pair.
Fosu Mensah it was the same thing. His roles changed in defense due to injury. McNair is probably the only player he kept out of position on purpose because he debuted in defense and did a very good job there for him.
Let's do. I don't see why people constantly pretend Blind was 'out of position'. This is a guy who came from Ajax capable of comfortable operating at left back, left wing back, left center half and central midfield. The only thing one can claim is he was short for a cemtral defender. Not that he was 'out of position'. I also don't see how playing Di Maria in a free role off a striker in a 5-3-2 set up is 'playing him out of position'. Or 'as a striker' I'm shocked people bought into Di Maria's hypocritical trying to blame his own unproffesionalism on his boss.
The only blind spot LVG had was his official captain that happened to be Rooney. He'd move heaven and earth to play him in the team if fit rather than bench him for his awful form. That is the real reason Rooney was in midfield, not anything else.
As I said before. We dumped Mourinho in the middle of a construction site still litered with potential blue prints and debrit. Yet worse our board has been treating him in the market like he imherited a finished house. It's grossly
Unfair to him. Even if I believe he was always a wrong successor to a van gaal.
I'd much prefer that we gave him a real chance by supporting him after he got us to secomd against the odds last season. Instead we got this disaster of a season post a terrible transfer window that was all the chairman's fault.
It matters not how many times that myth is repeated, it is un true. Rashford's emergence was NEVER an accident. By virtue of the our thin first team squad and Rashford's talent, he was always going to make his debit at one point. The only thing up in the air was whether he'd seize that chance as well as he did.
You cant be serious! That was LVG patimg himself on the back post Liverpool games for a) finding a top young attacker talent the press aand punditry he was at war with had zero clues about and b) bigging up his own foresight by saying he makes 'long term signinga for the benefit of Giggs'
To claim he was sulking his hilarious. You super misunderstood him. Infact he was in his most arrogant peacock mode....
Bullshit. Tuanzebe already established was never going to debt out of position. Then everything time he had a chance to there was no injury crisis and he was just on the bench. Or he was injured. To pretend he wasn't ever on LVGs radar is just plain lying.
As for Pereira he like Januzaj fell foul of LVG's strict team ethic rules. It has zilch to do with his ability. That bet on corners in a reserve game cost both dear. Keane is the only one he can be accused of letting slip through his fingers
So you want to play THAT game huh?
How was Keane supposed to fair as a left center half for boss that wanted a left footed one? Over the left football Blackett?
Mc Nair also debuted after Keane had already left. So I'm wondering how that can count as choosing him over a Keane...
How did Lingard, Martial, Borthwick- Jackson, Fosu Mensah, Mc Nair and Rashord fair under him as compared to JM?
How much also did the likes of Smalling, Valencia and Young etc improve?
Its always also awful convenient to site Memphis who was given ample chance and mostly failed. Only shining as a central forward. Which LVG ironically had the fore sight to claim it could prove his best position. With Memphis' current career path pretty much proving strike and not winger was his true calling.
Rather the concrete 'pro of' is you being disingenuous about plenty when it comes to LVG
Really mate? Its like we've never seen big managers like Fergie have bad days vs inferior bosses (remember the Dell hammering which fergie tried to freaking blame on rain?) ...me thinks you just plain hate the guy because this is extreme reaching......
I never actually say that both Martial & Rashford have the same talent and potential as Rooney & Ronaldo. The point was we should be giving those two playing regular time rather than wasting money on players that are not good enough to lead this team to the glory just to take their spot.
De gea was never going to leave unless Real Madrid is willing to meet the price that we asked for. De Gea has been very professional.
Whether LVG was going to waste our money or no, one thing for sure he would have given Rashford & Martial regular playing time if he stayed until his final contract.
Nothing worse than stuck with two overpriced players that we are looking to get rid right now but we struggle to sell. Everton level of striker who has the worst touch, ball control in a history, one of the most static off ball movement with overrated 2018 World Cup record scoring goals against Panama & Tunisia. And a winger with 500k per week who has past his prime. We decided to spend money on those two and even tried an attempt to sign Perisic so we can have both Martial & Rashford sit on the bench,
I’m pretty sure if you ask most United fans out there they would rather see us giving Martial & Rashford regular time than wasting our time & money on Lukaku & Sanchez.
We would have been where we sit right now or further behind. The football was awful, the results were mostly awful and he was rightly sacked. He did well in the big games, I'll give him that, but we failed to beat the 'lesser' teams consistently. He should have gone after the Stoke game around Xmas but was given a stay of execution. The Board made the right call, though they could have avoided the leak to the press on the day of the cup final.
Imagine someone popped up and told you that van Gaals spending was the same, £350million in 2 seasons, including the most we have ever spent in one season. And that of the players he signed, almost none of those players are at the club.
The football, basing it on the most basic principles of the game, to create opportunities to put the ball in the net, is much better. From 2 chances per game, of we were lucky, to 10-20 per game.
It's probably time for you to have that word with yourself.
Edit - van Gaals biggest spend was actually £3million less than Jose's. Doesn't change the fact he spent a fortune, in the days before the fees went mental.
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Van Gaal wouldn't have stayed past his 3 years anyway, this is pointless.
Make a thread about Giggs if you want.
Make a thread about Giggs if you want.
Had LvG stayed, we wouldn't have lost a single point against the Scouse cnuts. Enough for me.